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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: BettyofKent on Thursday 08 March 07 15:19 GMT (UK)
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I know the 1901 census for Deal is missing, but does anyone know if parts of the 1891 census for Deal & also Walmer are missing?
I've lost an entire family somewhere in this area!
Betty
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Hi Betty
Who are you looking for, perhaps someone on here can help. Looking at the 1891 census for Deal there are 9 districts, I don't know wether thats all of them
ricky
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Hi Betty
I've not heard of any of Deal or Walmer being missing in 1891. As Ricky suggests, why not post the details and see if somebody else can find them.
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you, I would be grateful if someone could look.
Samuel SKINNER born 1841 Deal, Kent
Mary Ann Dixon SKINNER (wife) born 1844 Walmer, Kent
Some of the older children have left home, the younger ones most likely still with their parents are -
Charles Albert Skinner 1880 Deal
Frederick James Skinner 1877 Northbourne
William Henry Skinner 1876 Walmer
They were living in Deal in 1890, as their youngest child, Walter Ernest died there age 7.
Betty
Scrub Mary Ann, she died in 1883 :-[
2nd wife, married 1884, is Fanny Eliza born 1858 Walmer.
They had 7 more children, 4 of them should be with them on 1891
Ethel 1884, Gertrude 1886, Percy 1888 & Winifred 1889, all Deal
Betty
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Hi Betty
Possible death reg for Mary Ann D Skinner
Mary Ann D Skinner
born 1845 ish
died 1883
June Quarter
aged 38
Eastry
Kent
vol 2a
page 563
ricky
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Hi Betty
Mary Ann Dixon SKINNER, w/o Samuel, died in Middle Street aged 38 and was buried in Deal Cemetery on 12 June 1883
Samuel SKINNER, pensioner, died in Deal Hospital aged 83 and was buried in Deal Cemetery on 23 December 1924
Charles Albert SKINNER, gardener, died at 14, Railway Terrace, Albert Road, aged 54, and was buried at Deal Cemetery on 7 February 1934
William Henry SKINNER, pensioner, of Niton Terrace, Northwall Road, died at home aged 70 and was buried at Deal Cemetery on 12 June 1946
Ethel Elizabeth SKINNER, d/o Samuel, died at Oak Cottage, Middle Deal, aged 5 months, and was buried at Deal Cemetery on 24 April 1885
That eliminates a few and gives you some addresses to consider...
Might be worth a trip to Deal library to look at directories, parish registers, etc. and the film copy of the census.
Regards, Bill
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Hi Bill
Thank you so much for this info. it's very useful.
I've only just started on this side of the family & there's rather a lot of them, I now know what my Father meant when he said half of Deal was related to the other half ;D
Thanks again
:)
Betty
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He wasn't far wrong Betty - at least in the 1800s!
There are 41 SKINNERs in the cemetery records from 1856-1948, but I don't know if they are all related.
Regards, Bill
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Hello Betty
Bit late I know but I haven't been a member long. This may be of interest.
Samuel SKINNER, Widower, Gas Stoker of Middle Deal married Fanny Eliza BUSHELL of Middle Deal on 3/7/1884. They had several children which I believe you know about.
Regards
Alastair
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Thank you Alastair. Someone emailed me a copy of their marriage certificate &, even better, a copy of a photograph of them both.
Betty
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Hi Betty of Kent
Did you ever find the 1891 entries for Samuel and his children - I have found that for the oldest only.
I think Samuel's two BUSHELL wives were sisters - grandchildren of my G3 grandparents Thomas and Sarah SPAIN whose daughter Mary Jane married a James BUSHELL (my G2 grandparents). James may or may not be connected to the sisters' father John Jones BUSHELL.
Ray of Glamorgan
MUDDLE, CASTLE, BUSHELL, SPAIN - Walmer and Deal, Kent
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Hello Ray, welcome to RootsChat :)
I never did find the 1891 Census for Samuel.
Yes, Mary Ann Dixon BUSHELL & Fanny Eliza BUSHELL were sisters.
Samuel had 7 children with Mary Ann & another 7 with Fanny Eliza.
For the parents of Mary Ann & Fanny Eliza I've got the following:
John Jones BUSHELL, born, I think, in 1820, Minster, Kent,Christened 16 Jul 1820 St. Lawrence, Ramsgate, Kent
Parents:
Henry Bushell
Elizabeth Jones
John Jones Bushell married Sarah Ann SPAIN 12th Oct 1841 in Deal, Kent.
Eleven known children.
Sarah Ann SPAIN, born 1822, Walmer Kent.
Parents Thomas SPAIN & Mary Ann SPAIN.
Possible parents for Mary Ann SPAIN
Father John SPAIN (a John Spain christened 10th July 1771, Newington next Hythe, St Nicholas Father's first name(s) Richd Mother's first name(s) Mary) no idea if this is the right John Spain.
Mother Elizabeth ?
Thomas SPAIN born about 1791, Canterbury, Kent. Nothing else known.
The SPAINs are difficult to unravel, they seem to be everywhere in Kent, my husband's got them in his tree, but no idea if it's the same lot.
Several people on RootsChat have also got them!
Betty
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Hi Betty
Thank you for the prompt reply and the welcome.
I have both sets of the 14 children and have identified the 3 of Eliza's who died before 1911 and, I believe, Mary's youngest, Walter Ernest died in 1890. Of the remaining 10, I have only managed to find Herbert Samuel SKINNER (Mary's oldest) in 1891 (Eliza's youngest 2 [twins presumably] were not born then and the third youngest may not have been).
In 1901, I have Herbert again and George Thomas (Mary's second) married to Maude Ellen WILKINS plus 5 children.
I have all of the 10 bar Edward John SKINNER (Mary's third) in 1911 with 4 of them married with children.
I know the Deal sections of the 1901 census were generally missing, unfortunately, but have no idea why so many cannot be found in 1891- however, this could be just one very poorly transcribed household. I have spent several days trying various searching tricks to no avail. The electoral register shows them to have been in Deal so this is very irritating.
Looking at the censuses for John Jones BUSHELL, I have him in 1851-1881 as birthplace: NK, Walmer, Thanet Marsden, Deal respectively. I have all the currently published Kent Parish Register CDs but these do not include Deal baptisms after 1822 or any marriages. Thus I have various ideas of where he was born but, as yet, have no marriage details to indicate his father. Though the one you give sounds promising, I would like to be more sure.
Frustratingly, the marriage details for Thomas SPAIN and Mary Ann do not give ages, statuses or fathers (surrounding entries do). Thus I feel again the need for more detail to be sure. My questions are was she married before or was SPAIN her maiden name. Looking along these lines, I found a Mary Ann Spain LADD (bap 21 Nov 1800 in Deal, parents Thomas and Margaret) and wonder if this could possibly be her!
Looking at the census details (age and b Canterbury) for Thomas, I think I may have the correct entry for his baptism: 23 Jul 1790 in St Paul, Canterbury - parents Thomas and Sarah SPAIN.
I actually have 12 children for John Jones BUSHELL and Sarah Ann. The first six through the Walmer Parish Register, and all bar the oldest of these (d 1843) plus 5 more through the censuses. I have picked up a 12th from the LDS site searching on baptisms (site has 11 of the 12) - the baptism details on this site match the 6 I have parish register information for. In total I have:
William Thomas BUSHELL
Mary Ann Dixon B
Elizabeth Eldridge B
John Henry B
Ellen Maria B
George Charles B
Edward Thomas B
Fanny Eliza B
Thomas Henry B
James Samuel B
Frederick W B (not on the LDS site)
Sarah Ann B bap 11 Nov 1863 (LDS site only, no census info - may have her death in 1864)
It is curious that the latter 6 children do not appear in the Walmer Parish Register.
I think the BUSHELLs will be as hard as the SPAINs to unravel as my GG grandfather James is, like John Jones B, difficult to pin down, but I have heard suggestions that his parents came over form France and renamed themselves. I was wondering (hoping) that tying John Jones B down may reveal James B or at least simplify the search.
Ray
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From the Walmer Parish Records:
Children of John Jones & Sarah Ann BUSHELL, Labourer of Walmer Road, (now The Strand), Walmer.
Baptised at St Mary's, Walmer:
27/7/1842 William Thomas BUSHELL
17/11/1844 Mary Ann Dixon BUSHELL
18/4/1847 Elizabeth Eldridge BUSHELL
11/2/1849 John Henry BUSHELL
1/6/1851 Ellen Maria BUSHELL
5/2/1854 George Charles BUSHELL
In January 1855 St Saviour's Church was opened on Walmer Road (The Strand). As The Bushells lived nearby it made sense to baptise their remaining children in St Saviour's.
From St Saviour's records:
30/12/1855 Edward Thomas BUSHELL
28/2/1858 Fanny Eliza BUSHELL
11/1/1860 Thomas Henry BUSHELL
23/4/1862 James Samuel BUSHELL
11/11/1863 Sarah Ann BUSHELL
No record of a Frederick W Bushell being baptised in Deal or Walmer. This either means the information is incorrect or he was baptised at another parish outside Deal - quite common then.
Hope this is of some small help - I know you have most of the information, but it backs up what you already have.
Regards
AJ
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Hi AJ
Thank you for the extra details. I suspected they had moved church, or even denomination, but did not realise there was a second Walmer church - yet to have its parish records published.
Frederick W was 5 years old in the 1871 census, where he is listed as 'son' and born Walmer. Thus I think this is probably genuine - but of course the enumerator could have just assumed (or been tired) he was a son like the previous 3 entries.
Good to have Sarah Ann confirmed too.
Ray
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Hello Ray
The only Frederick W I can find is Frederick William baptised 27/12/1857 to Frederick & Eliza Bushell at St Leonard's, Deal. He obviously wasn't 5 in 1871 but is the nearest I can get.
Could be the families were related and Frederick was at John & Sarah's house at the time of the Census so would have been included but they got the age wrong - should be 14 or 15.
Regards
AJ
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Hi AJ
He is listed after three other 'son's aged 15, 10 and 8 so I suspect, if the relationship is right, then the age is correct. Of course if this was, say, a nephew, then he would probably be listed at the end. To meet the 1857 entry, that would be age and relationship wrong so I suspect this would be a red herring. However, I can't find a suitable 1871 entry for this Frederick so it is a possibility.
Now back to the chase - the second oldest sister Elizabeth Eldridge BUSHELL's children.
Ray
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Hello Ray,
Can't find Elizabeth's marriage - do you know where and to whom she was married?
AJ
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Hi AJ
She was married to William GODDARD. I have found this on FreeBMD as being Dover 1866 Q3 and from the LDS site, 22 Jul 1866. In 1871 and 1881, her grandfather, Thomas SPAIN, was with them and in 1891 her mother, Sarah Ann (SPAIN) BUSHELL, was with them.
In 1911, she is listed as having had 8 children, 2 of whom had died.
Of these, I have:
Charlotte (second name probably Ann as I have that as Dover 1867 Q3) b Ringwould (1871 age 3) or Kingsdown (1881 age 13) - no sign of her thereafter (so far)
Ellen Maria b Walmer 1871 Q3 (have her in 1881-9, 1891-19, 1911-39 where she is married 17 years, 9 children, 7 living, 6 in same listing)
William Henry b Eastry 1874 Q3, bap 5 Oct 1874 (LDS) Walmer, d Eastry 1875 Q1 aged 0
Katie Elizabeth b Walmer 1876 Q1, bap (LDS) Walmer19 Mar 1876 , have 1881-1911- 5,15,25,35 probable marriage 1913
Fanny Sarah b Walmer 1880 Q2, bap St Mary 16 May 1880, 1881-1, 1891-11, 1911-31 plus 2 children (no others)
George James b Deal 1883 Q1, no bap, 1891-8, 1911-28, married 1914
Thomas John b Deal 1886 Q1, bap (LDS) 13 Jan 1886 St Leonards Deal, 1891-6, probable marriage 1912
There is also a weird entry for a "Miam Mary GODDARD" in the St Mary, Walmer Parish records for (editor comment) between 24 Aug and 6 Sep. I wonder if William Henry and she were twins and for some reason baptised in separate churches. Alternatively both entries could be the same with transcription problems.
1901 missing entries are probably Deal
Ray
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Hello Ray,
Thanks for your last post re Goddard. I have searched my parish records for Deal & Walmer and can only find 5 of the children of William & Elizabeth GODDARD, Labourer. This doesn't mean the missing ones weren't born in Deal or Walmer, just that they weren't baptised there
St Saviour's, Walmer 6/9/1871 born 26/7/1871 Ellen Maria GODDARD
St Mary's, Walmer Aug or Sep 1874 Miam Mary GODDARD
St Mary's, Walmer 16/5/1880 Fanny Sarah GODDARD
St Andrew's, Deal 28/1/1883 George James GODDARD At this time William was a Farm Labourer at Red House Farm.
St Andrew's, Deal 16/1/1886 Thomas John GODDARD no job recorded and living at Gravel Walk, Deal.
Hopefully this is of some use,
Regards
AJ
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Hi AJ
That is very helpful thank you. How are you accessing these records? Is your source original or a transcript. I could just about see how Miam Mary could be a mistranscribed William Henry with D/O being put in as it was a female name. What throws me is the proximity to William Henry's baptism and, presumably, that this was in a different church - hence my thought that these details just may be one person. I have never heard of the name Miam before (though I have just looked at births on FreeBMD - 2) and wondered if 'Will' had been transcribed to 'M'.
Ray
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Hello Ray,
It's entirely possible that Miam was William. My records are transcripts so an error could have been made there. As you have come across the name Miam then the error, if there was one, would have been in the orginal recording. William was sometimes recorded as Wm and Henry as Hy. If the writing was suitably flowing and done with a flourish then some names are very difficut to read, even the simplest ones.
Like you, I have never come across Miam before.
It may be safe to say that Miam is William while still keeping an open mind.
Regards
AJ
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I have Miam from Kent FHS CD 32 and yourself, so, as you say, assuming you yourself were not the kind volunteer who transcribed the data for the CD, if there is a problem here, then the original record would be the source.
LDS gives William, so assuming parents are correct, then this could be a different interpretation of the same handwriting.
FreeBMD, searching for Goddard b 1874, only gives William. Their source, the index, is typed and clear. However, the index's source could again be a different interpretation of the same handwriting.
I suppose that this may only be resolved if an eighth child is found or birth certificates are discovered for both.
As you say - need to keep an open mind.
Ray
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I have a burial if it's any use: William Harry GODDARD died 17/1/1875 aged 4 months in Upper Walmer.
Prior to this (post on 10/12/15) his parents were living in Walmer Road, which is Lower Walmer about a mile from the church in Upper Walmer. William sems to have been an itinerant sort of person, moving from place to place, presumably where the work was.
Regards
AJ
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Hi AJ
Sounds very likely to be the same child as William Henry above.
Thanks for this.
Ray
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Hi AJ
Happy Christmas
You say William Harry 'died' 17 Jan 1875 - is that buried as well or should this have read 'buried'? I have, from Kent FHS CD 32, a William Henry, 4m, U. Walmer, buried St Mary, Walmer, 17 Jan 1875.
Ray
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Apoologies, Ray, I should have said buried not died. The Parish Records always put the date of burial, occasionally adding the date of death separately but not usually.
Happy New Year
AJ
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Thanks AJ
Ray
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Hi Betty
I have a Charles Albert Skinner in my tree. He married my great aunt Alice Rose Pay in St Andrew's Church, Deal 22 Sep 1928.
Hope this info helps.
Jean
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Hi Jean
The Charles Albert SKINNER discussed above was born in 1880 or 1881 (he was 3 months old b Deal in the 1881 census, living at 1 Oak Cottages, Middle Deal, Deal, Kent) and I have a freeBMD entry for 1881 Q1 for him. In 1911, I have him as lodging with William Henry HODGES aged 30 at Hawkhurst, 6 Railway Terrace, Albert Road, Deal, Kent and he was a jobbing gardener. Unfortunately he, and his family generally, seem to be lost from both the 1891 and 1901 censuses.
He was baptised in Deal (according to the LDS) on 15 Jun 1881.
He died aged 54 at 14, Railway Terr., Albert Rd, Deal, Kent, was buried on 7 Feb 1934 and was a gardener (KFHS CD 21). FreeBMD gives a 1934 Q1 entry for him.
Do these details match your CAS?
Ray
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Thank you Jean. I had the date from a tree on Ancestry, but didn't know if it was correct, so good to have it confirmed.
Betty
Hi Betty
I have a Charles Albert Skinner in my tree. He married my great aunt Alice Rose Pay in St Andrew's Church, Deal 22 Sep 1928.
Hope this info helps.
Jean