RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: Dale on Wednesday 07 March 07 01:45 GMT (UK)
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Kia Ora from New Zealand
My greatgrandparents left England in 1878. I have traced all the rellies back to the 1700s but just today discovered that my greatgran's first cousin died on 2 September 1942 and is listed as a Civillian Death on the Commonwealth War Graves Commision site.
Elizabeth Mary WILLIAMS and her husband Henry John WILLIAMS aged 79 and 82 both died at 11 Higher Brook Street on the same day.
Their deaths are registered in the Newton A District.
Can anyone tell me:
1. Details of the incident or where I might find it?
2. Where were they likely to be buried?
3. There is no indication of them being taken to hospital and I presume as they appear to have died instantly there would be no hospital records?
4. is there a Memorial Plaque in the town?
5. Does the street still exist?
Any information/bright ideas for further info gratefully received!
Many thanks
Marlene
New Zealand
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Contact the RAF Museum, Hendon.
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Thanks Imber! Hadn't thought of the RAF for civilians.
Cheers
Marlene
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Higher Brook Street is still in Teignmouth
http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Teignmouth/CasualtiesofthebombingofTeignmouthinWorldWar2.htm
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Thanks Debjam! I went surfing last night and found that site! ;D
Appreciate your help.
Marlene
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Dear Marlene
Were you able to find out where your relatives may have been commemorated or buried?
I visit the Torbay area most years and would be pleased to try to find the graves or plaques and take a photo for you which I can email over. Did the cwgc site say where they were remembered - it usually does
Carol
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Kia Ora Carol
What a wonderful offer thank you so much!
The CWGC site says both Elizabeth & Henry Williams
"died on 2 September 1942 .. of 11 Higher Brook Street. Died at 11 Higher Brook Street.
Remembered with honour
Teignmouth Urban District"
The deaths were registered in Newton Abott Registration district.
I have recently discovered descendants in California but we were under the misapprehension the couple had died in Canada! The family in Canada have just ordered the Death Cert of Henry Williams so when it arrives I'll assess whether there is any new information and let you know!
You would make both sides of the family very happy to have some evidence of their graves!
Thanks again
Marlene.
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Dear Marlene
Its a shame the cwgc doesn't say where they are commemorated - maybe civilian casualties weren't given cwgc headstones and were therefore buried privately by their families ? If so - it could be anywhere. I would gladly go on a hunt if I had a starting point such as a cemetery name or memorial to go on. If you ever find out anymore - let me know - Carol
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I would say that the starting point for this search should be Teignmouth Cemetery- Devon FHS have recently published a CD of burials there , see- http://www.devonfhs.org.uk/publications.htm#CD
TEIGNMOUTH CEMETERY BURIALS 1881-1994
A collection of over 12,300 records extracted from the Cemetery Registers.
Teignmouth is in Newton registration district. If not try contacting Teignbridge Council in Newton Abbot.
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Hi Terry - Just to say hello -(It was me who sent you the pic of the Fleet firing a salute in Torbay for your website recently). Do you know if they have done a CD for Brixham Paignton Torquay Cemeteries - as I am looking for my grandfather's grave).
Marlene - if you have nay joy let me know
Carol
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Hi Carol, not yet! in fact Torquay Cemetery is planned and will hopefully be started soon- 60,000+ burials.
I've completed the four Churchyards in Torquay- Tormoham, Cockington, St Marychurch and Upton, from 1740 until closure date.
Cockington - Registers 1632 to 1907, indexed 1740 to 1907
Tormoham – 1637 to 1895, indexed 1740 to 1895
St Marychurch – 1641 to 1951, indexed 1740 to 1951
Upton – 1850 to 1936, indexed 1850 to 1936
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Wow - you've been busy ! I'll await that with interest. Did you notice any Clift graves at the cemeteries you have done, or will these all be put on a CD ?
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Hi Carol, these are the only ones:-
CLIFT Emma Wilkins was buried:- 18 August 1909 age:- 79 notes/address:- Ruscombe, Warbro Road, St Mary Church where:- St Marychurch
St Marychurch Memorial inscription:-
188. Emma Wilkins CLIFT / born at Bristol 5th September 1829 / Died at St. Mary church 14th August 1909
CLIFT Hannah Selina was buried:- 18 September 1891 age:- 39 notes/address:- St Mary Church where:- St Marychurch
St Marychurch Memorial inscription
194. In loving memory of / Albert Edwin CLIFT / who died 11th September 1877 / also of Hannah Selina his wife / who died 15th September 1891 / and of / Robert MASHFORD / died January 22nd 8392 / also of / Ann his wife who died / 15th January 1895 / Not dead but sleepeth (I presume Albert must be in the main cemetery)
CLIFT Mabel Elizabeth was buried:- 03 April 1875 age:- 2d notes/address:- Westhill, St Mary Church where:- St Marychurch
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Kia Ora
Many thanks for all your help folks and your second offer Carol!
I did write to the Teignmouth Council but no response as yet.
You Rootschatters are wonderful thank you. I'll let you know of any developments.
I have this morning received photos of another of mine who died in the Blitz- she was obviously taken for burial by the family- I was quite relieved - the grave is well tended & well marked.
Regards
Marlene
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Thanks for that Terry
Can't see a connection but will keep on file just in case
Keep me posted on the Teignmouth graves - if I can help
Carol
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Kia Ora Carol
I have written to the Council Cemetery site as there has been no acknowledgement from the Council itself as yet. ::)
As the deaths were registered in Newton Abbot I am assuming it will be that cemetery but will need a reference number/directions before sending you off!
Patience is a virtue
Possess it if you can
Seldom found in women
And never in a man!
Regards
Marlene
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Dale, As has been explained the actual bombing was in Teignmouth and if they died in Teignmouth then they are probably buried there- Newton Abbot is only the registration district.
I did say in an earlier message that you should write to TEIGNBRIDGE Council, who are based in Newton Abbbot as they control the cemeteries within their area and that includes Teignmouth.
The old town councils-even if they still exist have very little control these days. If you write to either Teignmouth or Newton Abbot council you will in all probabaility get your letters returned as undeliverable- or if the postman is feeling in a very good mood he may redirect them.
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Kia Ora Carol
GOT IT!
Teignmouth Old Cemetery Exeter Rd
PP 52
There is a Memorial on the Gravesite apparently.
Location maps are available - are you able to get one or do you know your way around? :-\
I'd hate to think of you wadering around lost!
Thank you ever so much - I'd be thrilled to have a copy!
Marlene
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Hi Marlene
We hope to go to Devon just after Easter
No I don't know my way around but will try to find it nonetheles
mog
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Kia Ora Carol
Thanks so much - it'll be my best Easter Bunny present yet! ;D
The very kind woman at the Cemetery offered to send you a location map - would that be helpful?
You'd need to send me PM with your postal address or give my your email address so I can ask her to forward it to you.
I have no idea of the size of the Cemetery but would hate to think of you "lost" during your holiday!
Regards
Marlene
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Dear Marlene
Have sent you a pm
Please let me have your email address so I can email photos over to you while I am in Devon
Carol
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Pardon me for butting in. But if you are not able to get to the cemetery. Give me a shout and I'll see if I can find it for you.
I park outside the gates every day to collect my children from school.
It's a lovely place with fantastic views over the sea.
Julie
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Kia Ora Julie
What wonderful people! Thank you so much! Carol is due to visit sometime during the following week but if for any reason she is unable to go I shall certainly contact you!
A wee matter that would be lovely to find as it may give some clues to their children would be an obituary/funeral notice in a local paper. Do you happen to know if a library would have old papers perhaps on fiche/film?
I imagine that if there was such a notice it would have been placed in the week following 2 September 1942.
I live in New Zealand and each time the family moved somewhere I have to go through the process of picking locals brains for the name of the paper & where old copies might be held! ::)
Another source of info might be the Electoral Rolls for the 1930s as we have an address for 1942. Do you happen to know where they might be held?
The Williams were obviously very fond of the sea so it is a great comfort to know that their burial is in such a lovely spot - Thank you.
Regards
Marlene
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Hi Julie & Dale
Yes I am still going to the cemetery a bit later this week
Also I will be going to the Torbay Library where they do have a newspaper collection and as it was probably local news may also have featured in a Torquay paper - I will take a look for you. If time permits I will also be going to the Devon Records Office.
Carol
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Kia Ora Carol
You're too good to be true! ;) Thank you! Wish I could send you an Easter choc but they are melting here!
Cheers
Marlene
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Hi Dale
Whilst in Teignmouth over the weekend I remembered your message and took some photographs of the memorial in front of the "Beachcomber Cafe" on the seafront, however my photographs are too large to be posted here being around 900kb. Included in the names are: EM, HJ and WA Williams. On the Sunday nearest Armistice Day 11th November, a remembrance service is held, poppy wreaths and individual crosses with messages are left around the base of the memorial. I think that the Royal British Legion will have information on this memorial. If you send your email address to my personal in box I will email the photographs to you (I have three)
Best Wishes
Sue
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Snap Sue,
LOL
I went to the beach yesterday and did exactly the same thing.
Bet the people in the cafe are wondering whats going on.
Julie
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;D Kia Ora Ladies
The "picture' I have of the two of you elbowing each other out of the way. like the paparrazi , on my behalf has given me the best belly laugh I've had all day!
THANK YOU BOTH so very much. I do so appreciate you thinking of me! Thanks for the additional info Sue- right now my head is whirling with the WA Williams - I'll have to check out whether there is a connection!!!
I'll be very greedy and write to you both personally!
Regards & many thanks.
Marlene
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I have been to Teignmouth today and there is a book in the library - or a series of books called - Teignmouth at War by Viv Wilson Part 1 & Part 2. It lists the casualties but I only copied the page for 11 Higher Brook Street. There was another Williams mentioned but I didn't copy that page. I am only here in Devon for a few days and I am not going to Teignmouth again - would anyone else be able to get a copy of the full casualty list for Marlene ?
ISBN 0-9539523-0-4
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Kia Ora Carol
I have received all the library excerpts you sent thank you so very much!
I also received the email about the grave - thank you so much for putting flowers there! I can't wait to see the photos!
Gratitude knows no bounds!
Will be in touch personally!
Marlene
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Dear Marlene
It was a pleasure especially in this super weather we are having.
The lady in the library at Teignmouth was an absolute angel and stayed with me for half an hour pointing out the books for me.
I am sure if you need any more information from the library and dropped them a line or an email- I am sure that they would be very helpful.