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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: ankerdine on Tuesday 06 March 07 20:56 GMT (UK)
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I have found my Marshall ancestors who were tinklers/gypsies living at Creetown Carpet Mill in 1851. Does anyone know what happened to them after that time? They were down as tinsmiths on the census form and were all born in a different location. Any information would be appreciated.
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Hello Ankerdine
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Could you give a little more information about them, please? For example, names and approx dates of birth and how you traced them to Creetown.
Creetown is in the old parish of Kirkmabreck and on one of the droving route to Ireland. The quarry near by provided much of the stone that was used to build Liverpool docks.
Regards
Gadget
Added - I see that there are quite a crowd :) Ref - 873 ED 3 Page 19
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Hello Gadget
Thanks for your prompt reply.
Strangely enough I cannot remember how I found these ancestors originally. My husband and I spent several holidays researching around Stranraer and Dumfries in Scotland. The most profitable place though was at The Stewartry Museum in Kirkcudbright. The staff there were delightful and couldn't do enough for us. As usual it was like doing a jigsaw and I just hope that we put the pieces together in the right place.
My gt gt grandmother was a Jane Marshall born in Crosshill or Kirkmichael around 1830. She married a John Williamson, I think, in Anworth Parish in 1855. I will look up her possible siblings details and post them shortly.
Thanks again.
Regards,
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Hi again
For information, the family at The Carpet Mill, Creetown in the 1851, Ref given previously are:
Alexander Marshall, 46, tinsmith, b. Withorn Wig
Jane Marshall, 43, tinsmith's wife, b. Kilmaurs, Ayr
Jane, 20, tinsmith's daughter, b. Kirkmichael, Ayr
Alexander, 18, - b. New Luc, Wig
Robert, 13, b. Kilmaurs, Ayr
Elizabeth, 9, b. Portpatrick, Wig
Sarah, 7, b. Leswalt, Wig
Francis, 4, b. Stonykirk, Wig
Stewart, 1, b. Wigtown, Wig
Your great great grandmother, Jane Marshall was married to John williamson at Gatehouse of Fleet on July 1st 1855, according to the Rituals of the Catholic Chirch marriage (after Banns). As it is 1855, there is far more detail on this certificate :)
Both are shown as living at Back Fleet Street, Gatehouse. John was 25 and an Ag Lab and a widower and Jane was 23 and a hawker of Japanese Ware (?) and a spinster. John had 2 living children. John was born in Norther Ireland - location and date not known and, as you said, Jane born but not registered 20th August 1831, Kirkmichael, Ayrshire. Jane;'s parents were Alexander Marshall (whitesmith) and Jane, maiden name Marshall.
When you say, what happened to them afterwards, are you looking for information about the whole of the family from census and BMD information or something specific?
As they were tinsmith/travellers it might be worth putting a second query up on the Travelling People Board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,387.0.html
Regards
Gadget
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Hello again Gadget.
Thanks for the immediate reply. I don' really understand how this website works. Do you research all this information for free just because you are interested in genealogy alone, or what? Whatever, thank you.
You may be interested to learn that whilst my "hubby" and I were in The Stewartry Museum at Kirkcudbright one of the museum attendants offered us some parish records of births, marriages and deaths, which we hadn't seen before. Just before giving up entirely, we found an entry for the birth of twins, Mary and Jane Marshall (twins) born 1852 to Alexander and Jane Marshall. Of course these weren't present in order to be on the 1841 or 1851 census. I would be interested to learn whether any of these Marshall siblings were on the 1861 census and beyond. I do understand that I could approach Scotlandspeople, which I have used before, but it is rather expensive and not always easy to understand.
Dumfries and Galloway is a lovely and unspoilt area. If you have never visited it, it's well worth a trip.
Regards,
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Hi again
Most of us do these look ups because we were helped in the past and feel we would like to help others now and for interest/puzzle solving, etc. All look ups on Rootschat are voluntary. Because my ancestors seem to have come from all over the place, I also have masses of personal resources that would otherwise gather dust.
I'm not having much luck with them on the 1861*- Scotland and Eng & Wales . if you have a sub to Ancestry, they now have the Scottish census indexexes (except 1881 and 1901). Scotlands people is not all that expensive - 1 unit = 20p - thus a search and image costs £1.20. It's best to use wildcards with the initial search, trying to keep the index list to one page.
I have been to Dumfries and Galloway on a number of occasions as some of my ancestors were from there - see some of the pictures on my website - http://some-ancestors.rootschat.net/html/dumfries_and_galloway.html
Here's one of Portpatrick:
Gadget :)
* but see Susan's posting - I was just going to post :)
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Hi Ankerdine,
Have found your family in 1861 under the spelling of Marshal with one L.
Alexander age 57 , tinsmith
Jane...age 53
Robert ..age 22..ag labourer
Elizabeth ..age 20..
Sarah..age 18
Francis ..age 14
Stewart...age 11
James ...age 9
Mary...age 7
James and Mary are listed as Twins so one of the transcriptions are wrong...they are either both 9 or 7
They are living at Tinsmiths Cottage, Stoneykirk, Wigtownshire.
Hope this helps,
Susan
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Hello Susan
Thank you so much for this information. You have moved me forward quite considerably. This fits in very well as my gt.gt. grandmother, Jane Williamson (nee Marshall) was also living in Stonykirk on the 1881 census, listed as a widow aged 42. I hadn't had sight of the 1861 or 1871 census records before. I recently found evidence from an Old Parish Register of Kirkmabreck (Kirkcudbright) that twins were born to Alexander and Jane Marshall in July 1852 and that their names were Mary and Jane ??? The mystery deepens.
I like the sound of Tinsmiths Cottage - on both the 1841 and 1851 census the Marshall family were living in "barns", sounds like they moved up in the world!
Thanks once again.
Ankerdine
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Hi Ankerdine,
You are welcome. As for the twins, James is probably a mistranscription, just like the ages...If the writing is poor James and Jane could be easily mixed up.
Will have a look on the 1871 and see if i can find them there and let you know anything i find.
Susan
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Hi again.
Have found a James Marshall, brn 1852 living with a family as a servant in 1871, He was at Kildonan, Stoneykirk...so think this could be the twin from above...he was working for the Sprott family.
Susan
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Here is the family in 1871...Alexander must have died by this time.
Jane Marshall...age 65..whitesmiths mother
Stewart Marshall...son..age 25..whitesmith
Mary Marshall...daughter..age 19..employed doing about door work
Stewart Marshall...Grandson..age 3...
They are living at Auchencloy Cot Ho...Stoneykirk
Have fun with your researching :)
Susan
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Hello Susan and Gadget
Phew, I just can't keep up with all this typing! It's like being back at work.
The family are becoming really fascinating. I now have to tie up some rather sensitive loose ends. My gt. grandmother, Jane Williamson, the grandaughter of the afore-mentioned Jane Marshall had 2 illegitamate children, Mary born 1880, and my grandmother, Ellen (or Helen on her birth-certificate) born 1883. She subsequently, appeared to "run-off" with a married man named David Blair. He was married to a Mary Scott in Dalrymple. I have not been able to find a death certificate for Mary Blair (nee Scott) or, worryingly, a marriage certificate for Jane and David Blair, even with the help of Stranraer Register Office. David and Mary were on the 1881 census living at Aird Cottage, Inch, Wigtown.
I certainly cannot be sure who my grandmother's father was. This is not an uncommon discovery in family history.
I can't thank you enough.
Regards,
Ankerdine
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Good luck with your search :)
I also have one of those lines :( On my KKD line as well! I have now practically given up with father-searching and have put lots more effort into the maternal line. One eighth of my tree will always be blank, I think.
I noticed that Mary Blair(nee Scott) was born England circa 1850. Could she have returned?
Gadget
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Continuing on from the 1871. I'm not sure that you have Jane Marshall, snr, on the the 1881. Still at Cot House, Eldrick Hill, Stoneykirk Vol 898 ED 6 page 6
Jane Marshall, hd, wid, 72, retired hawker, b. Kirkmabreck, KKD ( ??? )
Mary (Jane) Marshall, daughter , unm, 27, outdoor worker, b. Kilmaurs, Ayr
Stewart Marshall, grandson, 13, scholar, b. Inch, Wigtownshire
Not sure but the way it is written suggests that Stewart is the son of Mary.
Gadget
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Jane Marshall, snr died 8 October 1887 at Culmore, Stoneykirk. Her age is given as 78. Her parents were John Marshall, weaver, deceased and Jane, maiden surname Caldwell, deceased.
Not sign of Alexander's death as yet.
Regards
Gadget
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Thanks, Gadget, for the latest information.
On the 1871 census if you reverse the place of birth for Jane and Mary (Jane) then that would be correct.
That's an interesting point about Mary Scott but her marriage certificate gives little away.
What a delightful website you have created. I promised my husband we can view it together tonight, especially as there's "nothing on the box". Like you, we have photos of Portpatrick and the barns where the Marshalls were living also. The curator of the little museum at Creetown took us personally to see where the carpet mill was situated. He himself had written a short history of Creetown and in his little book there was a paragraph about the poor conditions of the carpet mill workers. The original report was written at the time by the local vicar. The mill is, of course, in ruins now and strangely atmospheric.
I found an entry for a John Williamson (gt.gt.grandmother's husband) on either the 1841 or the 1851 census. Sorry, I can't remember which at the moment. It may have been the right one. What do you think. He had been widowed when he married Jane Marshall, with 2 living children. The entry read, roughly, John Williamson, Margaret Williamson, David Williamson and John Williamson living at Templeton Mill Barn, Twynholm. That's near Castle Douglas I think.
How do I post other family names and regions at the foot of my e-mail, as you and Susan have done please?
Once again, kind regards, and thank you.
Ankerdine
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I'll have a detailed look at the Williamson info :)
We also had a lovely tour of the Museum in Creetown. The curator was a lovely man. he spent hours talking to us and it's all voluntary. People in D & G are so kind. In Parton, a person who had been the clerk of the Kirk got all his files out which contained old letters previous callers had given him of things that their ancestors had written. The previous callers seemed to have been all my kin in the 1960s. So sad that they are now all dead. He let me take them to Castle Douglas to photocopy. A wonderful man. My 3 grt grandmother was born in Kirkmabreck and they sailed from Creetown to North Wales.
To add names at the foot of the postings, you need to edit your profile. Click on Profile and then click on 'Rootschat Profile Information' on the left of the screen. At the bottom of your various details you will see a box named ' Resesearch names or areas'. Type your names, etc. in there - max 500 characters. Click on 'Change Profile' at the bottom right and you're away :)
Gadget
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Hello again ankerdine :)
I'm not sure about the Twynholm family. John is given as 30 in 1851 and was (supposedly) 25 when he remarried in 1855. Have you found them on the 1861 and later censuses to give an idea of his age and birthplace?
I see you've got your names up :)
Regards
Gadget
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Hello Gadget.
Yes, so you noticed! It took me a little working out though. I am a bit rusty with IT since I retired a year or so ago.
No, I must admit I was only guessing re John Williamson at Twynholm. It sounded like a good bet, he being a vagrant with 2 children. I only have the 1881 census records but I think he may have died by then. The family of Williamsons were by then living at Back Ramparts, Stranraer, all children being born at Stoneykirk, save for my gt.aunt Mary aged 1 yr, who was born in Stranraer. I must admit the only evidence I have is the marriage certificate which was extremely difficult to read = you did very well deciphering it accurately. Also, on Jane Williamson's death certificate her husband John Williamson is described as a "dealer". Now that could cover a multitude of sins, couldn't it?
I hope I can help someone some day with their genealogy problems. You must have the patience of Job.
Regards,
Ankerdine
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;D ;D ;D ;D
I have no patience whatsoever. I'm one of those 'don't suffer........gladly' types :) However, I love puzzles and problem solving - straight look ups are boring - I like to get my teeth into the families :)
I'll have a little nose around - maybe his death cert might give us some info :)
Gadget
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;D
Got him - how can we be pleased to find deaths ??? ??? ???
12th November 1877, Stranraer, aged 48. No mention of previous wife, only your Jane. paralysis 18 months. Informant was Jane Williamson, daughter. So it seems that his marriage cert age was about right.
Have you tried the 1841 - although, it did say on the cert that he was born in Northern Ireland :-\
Gadget
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In 1871 they are in Stranraer:
Volume 899 ED 9 Page 4
11 Back Rampart
John, 46, labourer, b. Ireland
Jane, 37, b. Crosshill, Ayreshire
John, 13, scholar, b. Stoneykirk
Jane, 10, hand loomer ? b. Inch
Alexander, 8, scholar b. Stoneykirk
Robert, 5, scholar, b. Stoneykirk
Francis, 3, b. Stoneykirk
Mary, 4 mths, b. Leswalt
No luck on the 1861 as yet :(
Apart from the Twynholm one, the only other John Williamson, b. Ireland, on the 1851 is an ag lab in Mochrum. Wigtownshire, aged 25.
Gadget
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Nice work once again. However, there's nearly 10 years difference between John and Jane on this latest census. I really would like him to be the Twynholm John with that ready-made family. I wonder what happened to that Margaret, John and David.
The old fishing "hovels" in Back Ramparts have been demolished. There is a brand new bungalow near where No. 11 stood. The gentleman who owned it was amused and interested, I think, to hear what my husband and I were looking for. He sent us off to speak to Shirley McNeillie, the Stranraer Registrar and Secretary of the Stranraer and District Family History Society. It was she who broke the news to me that Granny was illegitimate.
In conclusion, it must have been a healthy life to be a tinker/tinsmith/gypsy as the Marshalls seem to have thrived and lived long lives. Hope the trend continues....
Regards,
Ankerdine
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don't know if this is perhaps of the same family
i have a william marshall in my tree
in 1873 i have william as a tinsmith/pauper in wigtown
married to agnes adam
and his son is stewart marshall born 1853 in port william, wigtownshire
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Hi Caro :)
they might well be - can you give more info on your 1873 source, please? Was it a death or document?
I'll have a ferret around later to see what I can come up with and Ankerdine might well have some more info on the family.
Regards
Gadget
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Hello Caro
As Gadget suggested I looked back through my notes and found a William Marshall (whitesmith/tinsmith) firstly married to an Elizabeth Gibson and, subsequently, he appeared to marry an Agnes Adam. I only found this information through Family Search and it has not been verified elsewhere. I found a son, James G Marshall, born 1851 in Port William so this family looks promising for you . I also found that my gtx3 grandfather was an Alexander Marshall son of the above William Marshall and Elizabeth Gibson.
I think that there is a lot more information elsewhere on this site but I don't know how to insert a link for you.
Maybe Gadget could assist us here. She is VERY HELPFUL ::) ::)
Good luck with your Marshalls.
Judy
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what do you mean by this, ankerdine:
She is VERY HELPFUL ::)
Pretty easy really!
I just pressed sSearch Rootschat and put in Marshall by member ankerdine. These are some of the threads:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,220750.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,272191.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,104334.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,252868.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,275204.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,225919.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,275571.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,281397.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,296371.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,247515.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,259421.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,219463.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,319851.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,230427.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,249960.0.html
Now that's quite a lot for one family ::) ::) ::)
Gadget
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Heavens above, Gadget, I do seem to have your you experts to a lot of work when looking at the links like this!
Thanks for that extra bit of work.
.........and she even has gardening expertise too...... 8) 8) 8)
Postman just called with a MC. On a Monday morning as well. Can't wait to open it.
Bye for now.
Judy
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i have william marshall born in1828 in broque kirkcudbrightshire in the 1851 census aged 23 (ancestry.co.uk)
i then have him marrying agnes adam 11.12.1849 (family search)
then on the 1881 census i have him age 49 married to elizebeth (scotlands people)
the info for 1973 came from stewart m marshall's marriage cert where gave father as william marshall (tinsmith) & agnes adam as his parents
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I think if you read the links that I posted, you'll find quite a bit - it looks as if ankerdine and you are step relatives :)
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William Marshall (whitesmith/tinsmith) firstly married to an Elizabeth Gibson and, subsequently, he appeared to marry an Agnes Adam.
after a fair bit of searching on scotlands people i have found that
this william marshall was not married to agnes adam it was his grandson william marshall son of alexander & jane marshall who married her
william marshall married elizabeth gibson on 18.04.1800 in newton on ayr
alexander marshall born1802 married jane marshall on 23.12.1826 in kilmaurs,ayrshire
william marshall born 1827 married agnes adam on 11.12.1849
not sure if this helps you
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Hello Carol
I must admit these William Marshalls have caused me some problems over the years.
So as "not to hang out our dirty washing in public" do you think we should chat via PM. That will get everyone going, especially Gadget because she won't know what we are saying. Ha! Ha! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I have my William Marshall son of Alexander and Jane marrying a Mary O'Neal but there is another one marrying quite close too and this is the Agnes Adam one. Oh, dear, and I thought this was all tied up.
I thought I found his MC on Scotlands People but of course the parents names didn't appear till 1855.
I must look back through my saved images etc.
Any way, one way or another, we must be related somehow!! :D
Judy
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I was hoping you might suggest that, Judy. I nearly suggested it myself ;D
This thread keeps coming up in my 'New Replies' (and I give a big groan :( ) and it's only because I helped you way back. That will teach me for being helpful, I suppose ::)
To my knowledge, I have no connection with the Marshalls ;D
Mine were all farmers and merchants and solidiers 8)
Gadget
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Rest assured that I really do thank you for all your help in the past.
There going to be some fun and games before this one is finished though.
I will keep you posted if you are really interested.
Sleep tight and dont let the bed bugs bite.
Judy
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look on uk gypsies on facebook,, the marshals all still travel the roads,
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Although this may have little connection with the family here
you may be interested in reading about Billy Marshall King of the Tinkers
http://jimzglebeblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/billy-marshall-tinker-or-tinkler.html
Tkgafs