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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Gloucestershire => Topic started by: cire on Monday 05 March 07 17:33 GMT (UK)
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I have been looking at a Mansell family for a friend. They lived around Preston on Stour which was in Gloucestershire but now in Warwickshire. I found an early reference to the family which gave the name as Alexander alias Mansell and I have found the name combination in Charlton Kings in Gloucestershire. Does anyone know how te Alias originated? It carried on for several generations, which suggests that it was not because of illegitimacy.
Eric
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Hi Cire
My husband is descended from the Alexander Mauncel families of Charlton Kings. When Bernard Cartwright married Elizabeth Alexander Alias Mauncel in 1547(Mansell). We thought at first it might be illegitimacy but have since found evidence that it was not.
On looking at the Gloucester visitations, it shows that both the Mauncel and (Alexandeer) Alysaunder families started at Frampton Mansell in the 14th century.
We know that an Alysaunder deeded some land to a Mauncel in the 14th century and believe (but not proven) that this was because he was his son in law. We believe that this is where the "alias" came into being. Descendants of this family have since called themselves by both or either name.
We have another "alias" in the same branch of the family Bloxham alias Ingles or sometimes Ingles alias Bloxham, however, we have not found the link in this case.
Sir Richard Whittington 4 times mayor of London is also descended from this Frampton Mansell family.
Eveline
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Hi Eveline
Thanks for your reply. I must admit you have caught me out and at the moment I have little idea where my notes on the Alexander/Mansell families are!!!!! I suspect they are up in our loft with a lot more clutter.
As I said in my request I was doing the research for a lady who had helprd me a lot with a branch of our family. Her Mansell family were in the Atherstone on Stour area. There is a strip of land which used to be in Gloucestershire but is now in Warwickshire which includes Atherstone and Preston on Stour. There is quite a bit on the Mansell family in the Shakespear center in Stratford and it was there that I found a reference to the alias. There were also a couple of wills from the 1600s which mentioned a brother or sister in Charlton Kings. I passed the information on to the lady and haven't really thought about the family since early last year.
I agree with you that the alias is not due to illegitimacy, as it carried on for several generations. My thoughts were that it was due to some condition off an inheritance.
I have seen references to the Bloxham alias Inglis family in Gloucestershire but have not been able to connect them to my own. "My " Bloxhams are from the Avon Dassett/Burton Dassett area in south Warwickshire. They first appear in the parish records about the time of the Civil War. The battle of Edge Hill was fought in their "back garden". There are also references to Bloxhams from Gloucestershire, Aston sub Edge etc. in the Shakespear
Centre.
Next time I am in the roof I will have a look for the notes!!
Regards
Eric
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Hi Eric
Thank you for replying.
Regarding your Bloxhams. I had a note somewhere that suggested that my Bloxhams originated in South Warwickshire and moved to Mickleton in Gloucester. Unfortunately, due to a computer crash (and like an idiot I had not saved anything for some months), I lost the note and cannot remember who or where it came from.
My Ingles start in Mickleton in around 1460 or at least we think that John Ingles was born around that time but to be honest we are not sure where he was born. He was living in Mickleton when he died and left a will stating that his estate was to be shared amongst his 8 children, but no names to the children apart from his son Thomas born c 1890 not sure where, it could have been Mickleton or he might have been born before John Ingles moved to Mickleton. Thomas moved to Aston Subedge where he was living with his wife Alice. Again there is a will which mentions Alice and their children, but no date of marriage. It is about this time that the Bloxham Ingles seem to come into being as in his son Ralph's will (my husband's ancestor), he calls himself Ralph Blocksome. We (a cousin and I) thought that if the Bloxham names doesn't go back further than this, maybe Thomas married an Alice Bloxham and that as you say they changed their name because of the inheritance.
In either case the Bloxham/Ingles seems to have been interchangeable for all the children for the next couple of generations, then there is a definite separation with part of the family (my husband's part) keeping the name Bloxham and the other half being Ingles.
The family must have been fairly well off as most of them left wills.
To tie all this in with the Alexander Mauncels.
Going down the Bloxham family tree we come to a John Bloxham born 1574 died 1649, John Bloxham married an Alice Cartwright who was the daughter of Bernard Cartwright and Christian Slycer. Barnard is the son of William Cartwright and Elizabeth Alexander alias Mauncel of Charlton Kings. As I said, they must have been quite well off as of his sons (Timothy) married Penelope Segar who was the daughter of Sir William Segar who was Garter King at Arms from 1604 to 1606 and when he retired he was given a pension of £200 per year- which was a lot of money in those days.
If we go back a little further according to Biglands and the Heralds visitations. The Alexanders and Mauncels were at Frampton Mansell (probably named after them).
Most of what I have has been "proven" by wills, heralds visitations and Biglands as well as trips to Gloucester family history centre to look at the parish records.
I think what I am saying is that if you have an Alice Bloxham who was born c 1500 give or take 10 years either way and you are not sure who she married, it could be that she married Thomas Ingles and moved just over the border to Aston Subedge. What we also have to remember is that the county boundaries were much different years ago. Alice was buried 28th June 1557 at Aston Subedge just 5 months after her husband. As I said, it is her children who took the name Bloxham.
Not sure if the above helps or hinders your Bloxhams, it might just muddy the waters. However, I would be interested in knowing if you have an Alice Bloxham about that time, it might help clear up a mystery.
Eveline
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Hi Eveline
Thanks for the message.
The wills I mentioned are those of John Maunsell alias Alexander, Preston on Stour 1601 and his wife Margaret Mansell, Preston on Stour 1605. One of them mentioned a relative in Charlton Kings, so if you have lost a John in the mid 1500s that's where he was!. There was also a ref in a "views of frankpledge" for Preston where one of the family, and I can't remember which, was admonished for washing hemp in the stream used for drinking water. These are at the Shakespear Centre Library and Archive in Stratford on Avon. When I was looking at this family I couldn't make a connection to anyone in Charlton Kings.
I was interested in your part about the Bloxhams. I did look at the Gloucester Bloxhams briefly a while ago but couldn't make a connection to mine in Burton Dassett. As I said I can get back to Samuel in the mid 1600s. There are 2 Bloxham families , one in Burton Dassett and one in Avon Dassett before that but no connecting link to Samuel. This is partly due to the illegibility of the Parish registers and partly because of the hiatus of the Civil War and the Commonwealth period. I think that modern techniques should be able to decipher some of the old registers. So I have no definite connection with any Bloxham families before that.
There are two lots of Bloxhams in Warwickshire, those in the Dassetts and another line which comes from North Oxfordshire, which is where the town of Bloxham is, and moved into Warwickshire through the Tysoe area. There is also a line in Northamptonshire and up into Leicester but I haven't followed that, except for some of"my Bloxham" family which were in Chacombe for a while. The Dassett area is right where Oxfordshire, Warwickshire and Northamptonshire join. I have one Bloxham, born in Burton Dassett in Warwick, married in Cropredy in Oxfordshire and had the first child in Chacombe, and he would have needed to walk no more than 8 miles between the three places. The book "Lark Rise to Candleford" is set in that area in the later 1800s.
I will keep a look out for other Alice Bloxhams besides my grand daughter.
regards
Eric
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Hi Eric
Thanks for replying.
I agree that it all gets muddled the further back you go, mainly because of the civil war and even if records weren't destroyed then, you go back further and come to Henry and his dissolution of the monastrys.
I think probably to get as far back as I did was almost a miracle, thanks to my husbands ancestors leaving plenty of Wills. Plus the fact that the Alexander Mauncels were both listed in the Heralds visitations of Gloucester.
Plus Mauncels are related to Dick Whittington through his mother Joan Mauncel whose first marriage was to the Berkeley family and naturally, everyone wants to know the true story of Dicks rise to riches (although he was a second son, I cannot believe he was penniless).
It is interesting that there may be Mauncels related to my family in Preston on Stour. I must try to see if I can find copies of those wills. I do have a John Alexander alias Mauncel born 1523 in Charlton Kings. He is the brother of Bill's 10x Great Grandmother and I haven't managed to trace a marriage for him. Maybe he is the one at Preston on Stour who died in 1601.
I love the name Alice, actually it was my mothers and is also my second christian name. I bet your granddaughter is the apple of your eye. I know my Hannay is an absolute poppet and I wouldn't change her for the world.
Regards
Eveline
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Hi
I have a small piece of Bloxham history.
From an early pedigree in the possession of my family I quote " Anthony Mogridge, vicar of Himbledon, co. Worcester. Nat. 1687; ob. 8 Feb. 1766. Mar. Mary only daughter and heiress of Francis Kings of Naunton Court, Kempsey, By Anne, dau. of Thomas Anthony Bloxham, lord of the manor of Aston Subege and of Mickleton, co. Gloucester. She was born 21 July , 1718; mar 24 Aug. 1738; ob. 10 July, 1795. Buried in Severn Stoke Church, and by her he had issue-
(1) John Mogridge, sometime vicar of Avenbury, then vicar of Pershore .................."
Thomas Anthony Bloxham is my 7xgreat grandfather.
I don't know whether this helps.
Regards
George
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Hi George
I think you must be related to my husband as he is related to the Bloxhams of Aston Subedge but he joins the Aston Subedge crowd a bit further up the family tree from your Thomas.
Thomas Bloxham born 1624 at Aston Subedge who married Joan Phipps in 1655 in Chipping Camden is my husband's 7x Great Grandfather through his son John Bloxham who died in Ashchurch in 1729.
His father John was born at Aston Subedge but died at Aston Carrant. I have a transcript of this John's non-cupative will. As well as transcipts from John's father Ralph Bloxham and grandfather Thomas Ingulls' wills, both from Aston Subedge, plus John Yngules of the paryshe of Mykyelton.
As to what you sent me, every little snippet helps. I would be interested in hearing more about your side of the family and perhaps we can exchange notes and maybe between us get even further back.
My e.mail address is Moderator comment: email removed - please use the Pm system to prevent spamming and other abuses.
Regards
Eveline
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Hello Eveline and George
Thanks for the reply. I have searched in vain for a connection between my Bloxhams who were in the Burton Dassett area from the mid 1600s and those from Gloucestershire. It appears that separate people or families moved from the town of Bloxham to all points of the compass across the midlands.
Neither have I found the connection between the Alexander alias Mansells in Gloucestershire and Atherston on Stour.
Keep searching
Eric
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Hi Eric
Nice to hear from you again. I haven't got any further with your query or with mine. Hopefully in the near future something will leap out at me and I can say. Eureka.
I didn't realise that they blocked e.mails I have never tried to send one before. So you know what the mean by the Pm system.
Ahh I see an e.mail icon at the top. I suppose I click on that. Will try it anyway.
Eveline
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Hello Eveline (and Eric)
I am afraid I don't have any information on the Bloxhams other than what I posted on the web-site, whereas you seem to have uncovered rather a lot. It would be very good to know more of Thomas Anthony Bloxham's family if you are willing to share it. Do you think the Thomas Bloxham you mention is this Thomas Anthony Bloxham? There is sixty three years between his marriage and the birth of the Mary Kings, the putative granddaughter, in my tree? I understand you have evidence for an earlier name change from Ingles to Bloxham?
The extract I posted is from a pedigree which is also included in a book (The Manors of Wyke Burnell and Wyke Waryn in the County of Worcestershire with some account of............) published by my great-grandfather, Charles Edward Mogridge Hudson, in 1901. Apart from the reference in the pedigree he does not mention the Bloxham's in the text - the nearest indirect reference is "Of the daughters of John Mogridge, Vicar of Pershore, one was Lydia, born 24 April, 1787, at the old Manor House of Naunton Court, near Severn Stoke; residence of her paternal grandmother (i.e. Mary Kings dau. of Anne Bloxham), with whom her mother was then staying. When in her 17th year she married ...... it goes on to relate a little of her life and that the Duke of Kent (the father of Queen Victoria) was godfather to her child.
There are also some manuscript notes of my grt grandfather which I will check to see if there are any further references to the Bloxhams.
Eveline - I am afraid I picked up you e-mail address before it was censored by the moderator!
Best wishes
George
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Hi Eveline and Eric
I have just been to my parents' house, a short walk, to review the family records and it seems we do have a family tree for at least some of the Bloxham's of Aston Subege from the time of a Ralph Bloxham (1550) in my grt grandfather's handwriting (1890s). There is about two and half fullscap pages, so too much to copy and as it was raining I did not want to risk damaging them. I am am not sure of the source but on the same page there are references to heralds visitations. I will take photographs as perhaps the best way of conveying the information. There are references to the Bloxham ancestry in two versions of the Mogridge pedigrees from originals created in the 1700's.
I will revrt to you.
Best wishes
George
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Hi George and Eric
George I have your e.mail and I will reply direct to you over that.
Eric, if we turn up anything else on the Mansel/Mauncel/Alexander line, you can be sure I will let you know.
I have tried to follow the leads you gave me, but came to a blank wall.
Regards
Eveline
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Hello Eveline
I have just been looking on the "a2a" site. You may have these but if you enter "Bloxam" at the "Shakespeare Centre Library and Archive", there are abstracts of quite a lot of documents relating to the Bloxam and Bloxam alias Ingles" families around Aston sub Edge etc. There are some I think under "Bloxham" but this puts up lots about the town of Bloxham.
regards
Eric
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Hi Eric
No I hadn't looked before, YES it is interesting. Funnily enough on speaking to one of Bill's cousins over the week-end, she promised to go to the Shakespeare centre for us to look up Bloxhams, Ingles, Alexanders and Mauncel/Mancels in the Visitations. I have just asked if she could look up 3 Thomas Bloxham ones from a2a for me.
Thank you, I appreciate you sending this.
Regards
Eveline
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Hello to everyone who has contributed to this set of posts, which I have only come across today. Ralph Ingles alias Bloxam was my 10th great grandfather (through Robert, Richard, Thomas, Anthony, the Rev Matthew, Sir Matthew, William and onwards), so all the info is of tremendous interest. I knew about much of it, but not the documents in the Stratford Centre, which I must clearly visit. I am especially intrigued to learn the my Bloxam line might at one time have been Lords of the Manor of Aston sub Edge. If between you there is any new information since 2008, I would be interested to hear. I have a Bloxam pedigree which I can offer, as well as lots more info on the Bloxams.
I would also like to know how we might get in direct touch by email since it looks like a moderator removes email addresses from here.
Thanks in advance and I look forward to hearing.
Lawrence Pearse
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Hi Lawrence
Welcome to RootsChat.
I am a
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Hello Cire
Are you able to alert any of the other people who posted here to my interest?
Lawrence
PS I have Bloxams in my direct line down to my maternal grandfather who died in 1941
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Hi Lawrence
I am not sure why I wasn't advised that there was a post on this subject. So I have only just picked it up.
I have all your ancestors in my family tree down to William born c 1775 who married Anne Burnett in 1803 in Westminster. I haven't gone down the tree any further than that.
I have discovered over the last couple of days that Ralph's sister Anne married a William Southern, I am now trying to find out whether William and Ralph's first wife Margaret Southern were related, perhaps siblings.
Margaret being your ancester whereas Bill is descended from his second wife Jane Lee. I am still trying to chase the marriage of Thomas Ingles to Alice (although I might be proved wrong, I still think she might be a Bloxham as this is where the Bloxham Ingles - Ingles Bloxham seemed to start with their children.
Eric, You are interested in Warwickshire, There is a Dorothy Bloxham born Great Alne, Warwickshire who married Phillip Lyttleton of Studley Castle. This Dorothy is also descended from Ralph Bloxham. Her ancestors are Ralph, Robert, Thomas, Richard and Robert (born Offenham and died Great Alne). This Dorothy's granddaughter (another Elizabeth) was born Studley.
Is that any help in getting the Warwickshires/Worcestershires/Bloxhams all together in one family
Eveline
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Hello Eveline
Thanks for that. I assume you have found a parish record for the marriage of Anne and William Southern. I have William Southerne marrying Agnes Ingles Bloxham on 24 September 1542. Is this the same record?
I also have two Blox(h)am pedigrees. One (from the Visitation of the County of Worcester in 1682-3, later edited and printed in 1883) takes the Bloxham line back to Ralph and his wife Margaret Southerne. The other, whose origin I do not know but which was written up by a Richard Bloxam in 1926, takes the line 2 generations further back, to Thomas Ingles (ob. 1556) and his wife "Alice, dau. and heiress of ....Bloxham, ob. 28/1/1557)" and to John Ingles of Mickleton. I don't know the evidence for Alice's parentage, while my reading of the parish record was that she was buried on 28 June, not Jan. Like you, I have not found a record of her marriage to Thomas.
Have you been able to take the Southernes back at all?
Regards
Lawrence
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Hi Lawrence
Yes I found Agnes married to William 24th September 1542. But daft as it may seem, I thought I put a load of marriages that I couldn't find in the tree on to a word document, but I cannot find that now and I was only reading it now. I am almost definitely definitely sure that I had an Anne Bloxham Ingles marrying a Sowtherne, I was ploughing through Phillimores on screen. I had a couple of other Sowtherne's marrying into our Bloxham, Mauncel, Cartwright family on there as well - not only from Aston Subedge. I will keep on looking for it, but if I don't find it I will go back online to find Phillimores again. What I cannot understand is why I didn't put this marriage straight on to the tree.
Regarding other peoples trees. I prefer to look up the answers for myself and sometimes they pan out and at others they don't. I do look at other peoples trees, but then I try to go to the registers to qualify the information. When I lived in Worcester I made several trips to Gloucester to confirm information I had from an American Ben Bloxham and everything he had in his tree panned out OK. He had John Ingulls of Mickleton, but said that it was not a proven link.
The visitations are a good source of information, but when you get back to earlier dates, the information is from the descendants and it is possible that their memory might play tricks. My tree goes back to Thomas Ingles who married Alice (hopefully Bloxham) circa 1518 has been proved by his will. I have the transcript of his will which I can let you have if you write to me direct. In this he gives his wife's name as Alys. As yet it has not been proved that she was Alice Bloxham, but it is a strong possibility as that is when the Ingulls alias Bloxham started. I have Thomas as being buried 6th Jan 1556 and Alice as 28th June 1557/8 depending upon which calendar is used
John Ingulls who was living in Mickleton unfortunately we do not have dates for him as even his will was undated and I haven't been able to find a burial record in Mickleton for him either although in his will he wrote And my body to be buryed in the churcheyard of Mykyelton. We know from his will that he had 8 children and although the will was "mouse eaten" along the the right hand side, we know three of the children were Wylyam, Rose, Thomas but non of the others. There is no mention of a wife, but she might have died before him. Because Ralph was living in Subedge, but asked to be buried at Mickleton, we have tentatively put John Ingulls as being the father of OUR Thomas, but of course he might be a completely different Thomas. I suppose a visit to the churchyard in Mickleton might be worth a visit, especially if the church is open, if Thomas was well off as he must have been he might have a memorial in the actual church.
There is a certain amount of proof that there were Ingles/Ingulls/Ingelles and other deriviatives in Gloucester from 1268, but because of a lack of parish records before 1530 it is difficult to plough back much further.
I can send you a copy of my Bloxham family tree complete with notes of where the information came from starting with John Ingles but that will be over 30 pages, so I cannot put it here.
I think what I am saying in a roundabout way is that I agree with Richard Bloxam from 1926. Thomas was definitely Ralph's father, Ralph is in his will and probably John is Thomas's father.
In answer to your question about the Sowthernes. Margaret was baptised at Holy Cross, Pershore father John Sowtherne, but I have not gone back any further as I said, Bill's ancestor was Jane Lee his other wife whose father was Anthony according to Ben Bloxham, this is one of the very few things that Ben had written down which I couldn't prove in one way or another.
I would also be interested in seeing your tree unfortunately with us Bill's Bloxhams only come down to Sarah Bloxham who was Christened in 1733 to William Brick in Upton on Severn. So our Bloxham line is not into the 20th century like yours.
Eveline
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Alexander was probably the earliest known member of this family and he came from (Frampton) Mansell, which is about 15 miles from Charlton Kings, near Cheltenham. He would have been known as Alexander de Mauncel, and his eldest son as Alexander (of) Alexander de Mauncel, the patronymic. The family were later known as Mansell, but in the 16th/17th century as Alexander alias Mansell.
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Hi all,
I know this is an old thread, but hopefully some of you will get notified.
I am descended from Susan Mansell alias Alexander, daughter of Thomas and Alice nee Netherton.
As far as I am aware from my research this family was originally Alexander, but somewhere along the line one married a Mansell daughter. However, having read about the property given by an Alexander of Duntesborne to a William Mansell, it suggests that possibly here is the connection somehow.
Also, I'd be happy to know where in the visitations the Alexander/Mansell family are. I could only find a passing reference in the 1686 edition.
Looking forward to hearing from you.