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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Canada Lookup Request => Topic started by: Con on Saturday 03 March 07 21:12 GMT (UK)
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Kate GAY age 7 and Elizabeth GAY age 8 sailed to Canada on the Sarmation with Maria Rye's party in 1881. They are probably my great aunts and I think they were placed for 'adoption' in Newcastle. Now I am seeking any further information or ideas about their lives.
Charlotte GAY was their older sister and we think we have found her in Canadian censuses as a married woman named WAITE. Any descendents out there?
Connie
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Glad that you have started a thread for your own query, Connie ...
There are helpful people who have found information on some home children and made contact by finding this site.
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/DisplayPagePanb.jsp?id=110548&highlight=13
Not sure if this would be Kate in 1901, Toronto- as year of immigration isn't listed but definitely born England...Do you have exact dates to match up for births? It would help to find them on this census...
!!!!!!!!!!
Oops, I came in throough your profile, and now I see that we're on the resources board!
We'll get this moved out quickly! J.J.
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Found a birth registration for:
David Charles Waite
Date of Birth: August 30, 1905
Father: John Allen Waite
Mother: Charlotte Alice Gay
Address: Fraserburg P.O., Oakley
Occupation: Farmer
Reg. No. 029090
Township of Muskoka
Karen
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John and Charlotte are in the 1911 census living in Frasurburg, Township of Muskoka in the 1911.
Their oldest is Irene Waite born 1895 in Muskoka, but I can't seem to find a marriage for John and Charlotte.
Karen
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Here's a link to Wilfred Waite's WWI Attestation papers with his mother, Charlotte Waite as next of kin
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc017/654312a.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc017/654312b.gif
Karen
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Death Registration for;
John A Waite
Age: 55 years
Date of Death: March 31, 1915
Place of Birth: England
Address: Lot 13, Con. 13, Oakley
Occupation: Farmer
Married
Cause of Death: Heart Failure
Informaton: Robert Watson, Frasurburg
Township of Muskoka
Reg. NO. 021980
Karen
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Birth Registration for:
Arthur Waite
Date of Birth: Otober 5, 1901
Father: John Allen Waite
Mother: Charlotte Alice Gay
District of Mukoka
Karen
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Birth Registration for:
Wilfred Waite
Date of Birth: October 24, 1897
Father: John Allen Waite
Mother: Charlotte Alice Gay
District of Muskoka
Karen
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Birth Registration for:
Winnifred Amelia Waite
Date of Birth: January 22, 190
Father: John A Waite
Mother: Charlotte Alice Gay
District of Muskoka
Karen
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Here is where they are interred...
Waite, Alice C. 1869-1964
Waite, David Charles 1905- 1994
Waite, John A 1864-1915
http://www.interment.net/data/canada/ontario/muskoka/macauley/fraserburg/index.htm
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Are they on the British census, as although Charlotte wasn't sent over until 1883 I can't see her there?
Wondering if this is Eliza here:
Elizabeth GYE English 13 born England living with the Corman family in Wentworth Ontario... J.J.
Back on the regular board, so, no harm done! ;D J.J.
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Thank you Karen and JJ for all of this. This is the first time I have joined a Rootschat and I am finding it rather tricky to find my way around it and how it works. I have tried to write to Grub to thank for locking me into the right cage and I hope that my message has found its way appropriately!
JJ, yes I do have the UK birth certificates for all the girls and I had seen that same census entry for a Kate Gay. In that case the birthday given is very close but has no numerical or other comparisons that suggest it definitely is the same Kate Gay. But it is well known that the children's birthdays were often incorrectly carried forward to Canada, so it could equally well be her.
KATE GAY'S date of birth is 11 September 1875
ELIZABETH GAY'S date of birth is 18 July 1873
CHARLOTTE GAY's date of birth is 21 May 1869
I had also found an entry for Charlotte on the census and the birthdate matches exactly, although at the moment we do not know how or when Charlotte was sent to Canada.
Karen, thank you for all those references, that is a lot of information we had not yet found. I have just checked the Commonwealth War Grave Commission records for WW1 casualties and see that there is no Wilfred recorded but two Canadians with the initial W. I can check on that later on, when we have found some more details ; actually a surprising number of Canadians with the surname Waite are there, though. I hope she got her son back from the war - she had lost so much in her life.
I should say that there was also a brother called Robert Gay and I am in touch with his descendents in the USA who are fully aware of his life story. I am in the UK and until just a few months ago I had no idea I needed to learn how to search around Canadian archives. I am quite skilled at UK searching but a novice with Canada and the USA. Until they heard from me the American family did not know that Robert's sisters had probably also become migrants, and because my grandmother and another sister did not leave England I had no idea that some others did.
Currently the family in the USA are waiting for a reply to written enquiries at the Canadian archives so we have not yet been too vigorous in our searches because the information may yet be sent to us. I will share this information with them as well.
JJ, I see you have sent two more messages so will send this right away. It is late evening here, so I will not be able to stay and play for too long now - will have to step back into my family cage before I get found out!!
Again, thank you all,
Connie
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Charlotte was on that list in the archives, wasn't she? I'll post it here...J.J.
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/02011003_e.html
Here it is:
Charlotte Gay
Age: 13
Ship: SS Parisian
Liverpool / departure Date: 20 Sep 1883
Quebec / Arrival Date: 29 Sep 1883
Miss Rye / Destination: Not Given
Microfilm reel: C-4533
also : ( although I am sure this is for the same Charlotte...
Age: 14
Ship: SS Parisian
Arrival Date: 29 Sep 1883
Party: Miss Rye
Comments are that there is General Correspondence
Series RG 17, Vol 395, Docket 42680
You can look at the actual ship's log to see if there was another Charlotte.
All that will be there is a handwritten list of names...no extra information on the person...although if that is your Charlotte there may be more information at the archives as you say... J.J.
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Could we have the parent's names in case the marriages may be found? J.J.
Wilfred not on the virtual war memorial...so hopefully he survived...
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Results
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Are they the family in 1881, living in Chelsea, Kensington London
Charlotte, mother, widow
Alice age 11
Elizabeth, 7
Kate, 5
Nellie, 4
Maude, 2
Robert, 12 months
Karen
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Birth Registration for:
Irene Alicia Waite
Date of Birth: October 13, 1895
Occupation of Father: Book keeper
Father: John A. Waite
Mother: Charlotte A. Gay
Toronto, County of York, Ontario
Reg. NO. 012057
Karen
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Perhaps we could get the obituary for Charlotte Alice and maybe it might mention her sisters Kate and Elizabeth.
Karen
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There was an Alice and she came with Miss Rye in 1886 age 16...but the 1911 census does say 1883, hmmmm....censuses not always accurate, so that's a tough one...J.J.
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Marriage Registration for:
Irene Alicia Waite
Age: 21
Spinster
Residence when married: Township of Oakley
Birthplace: Township of Oakley
Anglican
Father: John Waite
Mother: Alice Gay
William Gordon Robinson
Age: 27
Residence when married: McLean Township
Place of Birth: McLean Township
Bachelor
Occupation: Farmer
Father: Samuel Robinson
Mother: Sarah Ann Preston
Witnessess: Wilfred Waite, Frasurburg, Ontario and Mrs. W.R. Newton, Baysville, Ontario
Intended Place of Marriage: Township of McLean, County of Victoria
Date of Marriage: October 16, 1916
Reg. No. 021613
Karen
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Hi, Connie...always asking for more information, I know, but it all helps...
Do you have middle names for the two , as Charlotte and Robert did, and since Charlotte Alice used hers interchangeably, perhaps Elizabeth and Kate did also...
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Hi Connie,
Did you know that you can view the original ships passenger lists online?
You have the arrival dates and name of the ship from the Home Children database, so use that info to find the relevant ship here
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/passenger/001045-130-e.html
(Click on Search on the left-hand menu bar)
I think the double-entry for Charlotte is the same person - her age is a bit smudged on the original image. Although I don't know what the reference to "General Correspondance" means - there is no further information on the passenger list itself.
MJP
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Hello again, folks. Sorry I was away so long - I have a seriously ill person to care for so have little control over my free time - and now I only have just over an hour so will quickly get going. Thank you for all that information, I am overwhelmed, both by your kindness but also literally overwhelmed by the quantity of news that is arriving. To your queries...........
JJ, yes, the family are in London, UK, on every census except for the 1891, for which I have only found little Maud in a Nazareth House Childrens home in London. I have those records. Widow Chrlotte is 'missing' probably because she gave birth to a son around 1885 who bears her surname. She was widowed in 1880. I cannot find his birt certificate, but have all the others. I guess she spent some time in a workhouse or similar. I have yet to find my grandmother, Nellie in 1891, and I know she never left the UK. Maud did return to her mother after 5 years in the childrens home.
Elisabeth GYE is a good possibility, I would think.
I will look up the ships log for Charlotte; and I would think the two entries for Charlotte are simply handwriting discrepencies from two seperate documents, wouldn't you? September 20 and September 29 etc?
Karen, yes, that is them in 1881. My grandmother is Nellie. JJ, do you mean the parents of Charlotte , Kate and Elizabeth? They are Robert Gay and Charlotte Gay. I have their marriage and birt certificates, all around London UK. Robert died in 1880, age 34.
JJ, young Charlotte was definitely born in 1869. Could she perhaps have returned to England and then back to Canada? Could that be possible, I wonder? She would have been one of Miss Rye's older girls - might she have escorted travellling groups?
Second names.... only Charlotte Alice who was the first born and Robert who was last and the only boy. All the other girls had only one name. I guess they used Alice in the early years because mother was also Charlotte.
Now to copy all this info down in a manageable format.........
Thank you, thank you.......
Connie
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Hmmm didn't get notification for your reply...that's been happening a lot lately, but I keep always notify on...Site getting busy and getting glitches I suppose...
Have you heard from collections Canada yet? Still curious as to what the correspondence docket holds...maybe nothing, but who knows...never saw this before...
Sorry about your illness in the family... Thanks for the reply...wish we could find more on Kate and especially Elizabeth... J.J.
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Golly, I see it is nearly a year since I last wrote. My research time is very limited by my need to care for my adopted daughter who is profoundly disabled and I have also been busy on other lines of research whenever I had a moment for it.
I think I could probably complete on this enquiry for now as I have managed to trace Charlotte GAY/WAITE's very long life which ended in Muskoka and I have the certificates etc. Some very kind local genealogists have even photographed her gravestone for me. And we already know about her brother Robert GAY through his US descendents...........
So.........I am now returning to the two little BHC sisters, ELIZABETH and KATE GAY and I think I possibly should start a new thread as I have a little nugget of new infomation about them to explore.
But I do find it a little confusing about finding my way around Rootschat - last time I seemed to arrive through the wrong door!- so I think I will wait a little to hear back from you first.
Connie
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Actually, no, don't start a new thread, as the 2 are already mentioned on this one...( they began the query, actually) There are only a few handfuls of people who help on the whole board and about half of them work on BHC threads....so they will be notified and if not I will notify them....
Please ask within this thread or resources and answers may be duplicated, and to no end, really....
Looking forward to hearing the new "tidbit" on the gals...J.J.
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but whenever you do start a new query just make sure it is on a main board, or sub board...not on a resource board...You'll do fine... :D
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I'll use this reply to do an update on the thread...
Kate GAY age 7 and Elizabeth GAY age 8 sailed to Canada on the Sarmation with Maria Rye's party in 1881. They are probably my great aunts.
older sister (arrived 1883) Charlotte Alice GAY married John Allen Waite / farmer..she also was known as Alice Charlotte...
Robert Gay ( found in U.S. not stated if he was a home child)
CHARLOTTE GAY's date of birth is 21 May 1869 ( d. 1964)
ELIZABETH GAY'S date of birth is 18 July 1873
KATE GAY'S date of birth is 11 September 1875
older sister Charlotte Alice GAY married John Allen Waite / farmer
Death found for John A. Waite, March 31, 1915
Fraserburg P.O., Oaklley / Muskoka /
children from birth details & 1911 census
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census11/View.jsp?id=98634&highlight=14
Irene Alicia Waite born Oct. 1895 ( marriage found)
Wilfred Waite born October 24, 1897
Winnifred Amelia Waite born Jan 22 1900
Arthur Waite born October 5 1901
David Charles Waite August 30, 1905 ( d. 1994 )
a Katie Gay is found on the 1901 but says born 1876, Dec...and no year of immigration given...although born England....
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/DisplayPagePanb.jsp?id=110548&highlight=13
Found them again....here they all are on the 1881 / London, Middlesex, Eng.
Charlotte Gay as head is a widow age 34 b. Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Alice Gay ( Charlotte) age 11 b.St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Gay age 7 b.Clapham, Surrey, England
Kate Gay age 5 b.Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Nellie Gay age 4 b. Paddington, Middlesex, England
Maude Gay age 2 b.Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Robert Gay age 12 m b. Marylebone, Middlesex, England
and could we have the names of the parents...I am guessing Charlotte Thomas and Robert Gay ( see a death age 34 1880 Marylebone)....but if we are to find any marriages, the names of the parents are necessary...although they may have been too young know the maiden name of the mother....but you never know....
also this may have been another birth for them
Julia Gay - born Jan 4th 1871 ( might be Wandsworth - BMD - 1d 550)
Christened Feb. 5th 1871 Holy Trinity, Clapham, Surrey, England
to ROBERT GAY & CHARLOTTE
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Here are some links:
Miss Rye’s Home for Children – Niagara
Miss Rye's distributing home for immigrant children
http://www.nflibrary.ca/nfplindex/data/6/0/89660-501787.jpg
http://www.nflibrary.ca/nfplindex/show.asp?id=89660&b=1
Tweety Bird Genealogy
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~tweetybirdgenealogy/index.html
The Golden Bridge: Young Immigrants to Canada, 1833-1939By Marjorie Kohli
http://tinyurl.com/2uye4k
The Little Immigrants: The Orphans Who Came to Canada By Kenneth Bagnell
http://tinyurl.com/34tcnx
Passenger Manifets
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/archivianet/passenger/001045-100.01-e.php
Wilfred Waite
Attestation Papers
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc017/654312a.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc017/654312b.gif
Muskoka / Parry Sound Genealogy
http://www.waynecook.com/parrysound.html
Muskoka Parry Sound Genealogy Group
http://www.mpsgg.com/
Janice
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J.J., thank you for being my fairy god-mother! I will start with your queries. ROBERT GAY was definitely a BHC. He sailed on the Caspian in 1889 with a Roman Catholic party. (There is an interesting aspect there as the family were not RC, but that is surely a different topic). You do have the correct info about the UK family. Julia was their first born child and the maiden name of Charlotte senior was Thomas. I have seen the Katie Gay in 1901 but cannot figure out any way to check on her identity.
My reason for picking up on this trail just now is that I have received a document from Liverpool University in the UK. It is a report from Maria Rye giving a list of Children from the Peckham home in 1881 and their placements in Canada. It only gives initials but I feel sure it gives Elizabeth and Kate. It says they have both been placed in Newcastle; Elizabeth to a Mr. F. N., Wharfinger, and Kate to Mr. J.L., Farmer. I am seeking advice now about how I might possibly be able to search out those families from just that information. Was Newcastle densely populated at that time?
Janice,
Thank you for those links. I do have both the books and and I knew most of the links, but the Parry Sound ones will probably be of help as I am hazy about Canadian geography as it my relate to this reserach.
Connie
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Was Newcastle densely populated at that time?
Connie
Hi Connie,
Newcastle was pretty small and still is pretty small (my sister in law lives there ;D ), it is east of Toronto.
Karen
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Thank you Karen,
so maybe I would be in with a chance to locate those two families. I think then I will try the local genealogy groups for help with a census or any similar records that might be available.
(Wonder if I am related to your sister-in-law!)
Connie
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I checked the 1881, 1901 & 1911 Census and cannot find them. "Newcastle" only has a few pages. (Durham County)
Bowmanville & Darlington History (beside Newcastle)
http://www.ontariogenealogy.com/Durham/history/bowmanville9.html
Haldimand History
http://www.ontariogenealogy.com/Northumberland/haldimandtownship.html
Janice
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Okay, I think I found him.
F. Nicholson
http://www.geocities.com/nvdhs/oct02.pdf
1881 Census
Newcastle,
Durham West,
Ontario
Francis NICHOLSON
M
Scottish
47
Scotland
Wharf Master
Church of England
Mercy NICHOLSON
M
English
40
England
Francis Holden NICHOLSON
Scottish
19
Ontario
Clerk
Fredrick Robert NICHOLSON
Scottish
18
Ontario
Clerk
Thomas Bethal NICHOLSON
Scottish
14
Ontario
George Israel NICHOLSON
Scottish
8
Ontario
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Here is more on Francis Nicholson
http://www.ontariogenealogy.com/Durham/clarkehi.html
http://sher.leetooze.googlepages.com/fromtheoakplaintothelakefront
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Hello Connie
My reason for picking up on this trail just now is that I have received a document from Liverpool University in the UK. It is a report from Maria Rye giving a list of Children from the Peckham home in 1881 and their placements in Canada. It only gives initials but I feel sure it gives Elizabeth and Kate. It says they have both been placed in Newcastle; Elizabeth to a Mr. F. N., Wharfinger, and Kate to Mr. J.L., Farmer. I am seeking advice now about how I might possibly be able to search out those families from just that information. Was Newcastle densely populated at that time?
Have you considered these two records with given names as Elizabeth & Kate. They are both travelling together with Miss Rye's party; however, destination is Niagara-on-the-Lake. Ages would be about right.
Name: Kate Gay Age: 7
Name: Elizabeth Gay age 8
Ship: Sarmatian Year of Arrival: 1881 Departure Port: Liverpool Departure Date: 30 June 1881 Arrival Port: Quebec Arrival Date: 10 July 1881 Party: Miss Rye's Destination: Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario Comments: 65 children, mostly girls Source: Library and Archives Canada Reference: RG76 C 1 a Microfilm: C-4531
Linda
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Connie
I wonder if those records from the Liverpool University may be incorrect. On the 1881 census, Newcastle is in the District of Durham West and searching specifically in Newcastle and in the District as a whole on www.familysearch.org , no Farmer names found. There is a John Farmer found in Grimsby in District of Lincoln which is a distance of 47.5km from Niagara-on-the-Lake. In the 1901 Canada census Lincoln and Niagara are combined to form one district -> District of Lincoln & Niagara.
Linda
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Not getting notification for this thread for some reason!
:-\ :( >:(
Going back over the thread, I wonder about these two surnames...sounding more like occupations than surnames ( :D Yes, I do know that most surnames were derived from occupations ) But I've looked high and low for the surname Wharfinger / Warfinger and it only exists in extremely small amounts....
Could it be that this is a red herring, and those ARE occupations...and only the first and last initials were given to protect the adopting families
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Oh, Janice, scrolling down to see the initials and commas in the posting...
I see by your Francis Nicholson, you already knew that!!!! Smart girl!
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Also, Con, I see now that you state only initials were given...I need to get glasses...and perhaps find the other half of my brain
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Looked through the 1060 names and this is the only one that seems to match!
JAMES LEE b. 1840 England / Farm Laborer religion: C of E
wife Annie
Children: James age 12 England
Edit age 10 England
Florence Maud age 8 England
William Ernest age 6 Ontario
George Arthur age 4 Ontario
Rhoda Jane age 2 Ontario
The only other 2 "L 's" were Lycett & Lowry
Now we need to peek into the 1891 for these families...Can anyone do this?
This family is in york west in 1901 and reveals nothing...
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census/ViewFrame.jsp?id=31866&highlight=20
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I believe this is the directory for 1880 "Durham County"
Directory and book of reference for the west riding of the county of Northumberland and the county of Durham
http://www.ourroots.ca/e/toc.aspx?id=11289
Keep your eye on this site for the census information
Ontario Census Project
http://ontariocensus.rootsweb.ancestry.com/TWPN.html
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Janice, Linda and J.J.
Thank you for all these suggestions and also for the reminders from J.J. I am afraid my daughter (and I also have to stay with her) has been in and out of hospital several times leaving me no opportunity to clear E-mails etc. This will continue as her life expectancy was always limited and clearly it is all gradually become more intensive. (Not a matter for great trauma as she is neither aware nor suffering, which eases the situation, but the care needs on me are 24/7 and this has to be my priority)
I think I will pass this information on to the descendents of Robert Gay in the USA as they may be able to make more use of the geographical history than I and may be able to think of a way to make use of the details you have all offered.
It seems we are rather unlucky with Kate and Elizabeth's ages and the year in which they sailed. They just missed the 1881 censuses and then cannot be found in 1891, by which time they could possibly have married. Do you think it would be worth while for me to write to a Newcastle newspaper or perhaps a local genealogy group?
Perhaps we have exhausted all possible lines of enquiry - do you agree?
Again, thank you all so very much.
Connie
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Hello Con
The James Lee for 1891 census is transcribed on the OGSPI website and no Kate Gay is living there in 1891
http://www.ogs.on.ca/ogspi/9/o059e100.htm
She must have moved on, married or died by then, if this is the JL.
That was a wonderful discovery by Janice and JJ with the initials.
Linda
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Hello Con
On the 1891 England census there is a Nellie Day born Paddington age 13 that looks interesting.
RG12/1 Folio 116 Page 38
Head of household is Benjamin Day, husband of Alice
Alice is the wife born Marylebone age 34. (10 years off, Charlotte & Alice seem to be interchangeable ??)
Mable daughter, age 11, 2 years younger than Nellie also born Paddington - could this be Maud??
Also son William age 5 also born Paddington - could this be the son born around 1885 you mention
Linda
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Yes Linda, I would never have been able to find my way to get even close to thinking about the Lee and the Nicholson families, so my medals are awarded to JJ and Janice. And, again, their ages in relation to the censuses are just about the worst possible - so much could have happened to them by the time the girls became 17/18.
I do know of the family of Benjamin Day in the UK censuses. In fact GAY is quite a common name around London at that time, together with all our girls names, Charlotte , Alice, Nellie, etc. Blame Queen Victoria , too, for having so many daughters with popular names! There are a couple of GAY families in that area of London at the same time and I have been able to track them all to prove they are quite separate. I also have full details for Charlotte Alice's father-in- law Charles Gay and his large family and two wives. I have his will as well where 'baby' Robert - his grandson - and my grandmother Nellie were mentioned.
I think it is most likely that the last illegitimate son - Frederick - was either not registered at birth or was born in a workhouse or similar. I have paid for some workhouse records to be searched but so far with no success. For a widow in such trouble in those days there are many dark possibilities about what happened to her.
Connie
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Hi, Con...
Am so very sorry for your Daughter's and your trials... Our hearts & thoughts go out to you...
As there is always new information surfacing...one never knows when something might turn up...One set of home children suddenly turned up on the LAC site, mush to our amazement, as we'd thought it was complete...but seems to be new additions as they find new info...So Frederick may also show up yet as well...
as for the searching, we are always happy to go the extra mile for our home children queries, as we have a special place in our hearts for them...and are happy to do it!
all the best, J.J.
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Connie
Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Janice