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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: janan on Wednesday 24 November 04 15:02 GMT (UK)
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Look-up no longer needed - thread now a general Carver ramble and gathering of the clan!
full refs for these people in 1851 in Wrestllingworth. If anyone is able to do that it would be much appreciated.
Young Carver born Wrestlingworth circa 1799 wheelwright
Mercy Carver his wife born Wrestlingworth circa 1801
James Carver born Wrestlingworth circa 1830 Wheelwright
Alice Handley (married James Carver in 1852) born Wrestlingworth circa 1825
Letitia (Letty or even Louisa) Handley Alice's mother born in Cockayne Hatley circa 1806
Any other Carver's in the village would be of interest as they all appear to be related. Thank you in anticipation Jan
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You were right; there were a lot of Carvers in Wrestlingwoth. I couldn't see Letitia Handley though
1841 HO107/002/26
Alice Handley 15 Female servant born in county, in household of William Twiss 35 clergyman
George Carver 50 wheelwright
Mary Carver 45
Simeon Carver 18 ag lab
Sarah Carver 14
Ann Carver 12
Noah Carver 9
Henry Carver 5
All born in county
Charlotte Carver 25
Edward Carver 5
Jesse Carver 2 (male)
Jonathan carver 1
Mary Carver 20
All born in county
James Carver 30 ag lab
Sophia Carver 25
Amos Carver 9
Jabez Carver 4
All born in county
Thomas Carver 20
Lydia Carver 20
Sarah Carver 1
All born in county
Young Carver 40 Wheelwright
Mercy Carver 40
William Carver 17 ag lab
John Carver 13
James Carver 10
George Carver 7
Alfred Carver 5
Ann Carver 5mths
All born in county
Give me a few minutes and I'll see what I can find in 1861 - I don't have the 1851 yet.
Regards
David
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Thanks David. Further confirmation at last that Young is almost certainly James' father. Had rather hoped there'd be a wheelwright still alive who could be Young's father, but you can't have everything! ;) Jan
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1861 Wrestlingwoth RG9/995
Jesse Carver Sen head married 48 foreman on farm b Wrestlingworth
Charlotte Carver wife 47 b Cambs Morden
Jonathon Carver son unm 21 ag lab b Wrestlingworth
Mary Ann Carver dau 15 straw plaiter b Wrestlingworth
William Carver son 6 scholar b Wrestlingworth
David Carver son 17 ag lab b Wrestlingworth
Young Carver h m 66 wheelwright
Mercy Carver wife 60
Ann Carver dau unm 22 straw plaiter
Alfred Carver son unm 25 wheelwright
Levi Carver son 15 ag lab
All born Wrestlingworth
James Carver h m 30 wheelwright
Alice Carver wife 35
Martha Carver dau 9 scholar
Ruth Carver dau 7 scholar
Robert Carver son 5
Rachel Carver dau 3
John Carver son 1
All born Wrestlingworth
George Carver h m 73 wheelwright
Mary Carver wife 65
Simeon Carver son unm 37 ag lab
Noah Carver son unm 28 ag lab
Eliza Carver grand dau 9
All born Wrestlingworth
Mary Stratton h widow 41 straw plaiter
Ann Carver sister unm 29 straw plaiter
All born Wrestlingworth
Jesse Carver h m 23 ag lab b Wrestlingworth
Elizabeth Carver wife 26 straw plaiter b East Hatley Cambs
Edward Carver son 5 b Wrestlingworth
Ann Carver dau 1 b Wrestlingworth
Thomas Carver h m 41 ag lab
Sofia Carver wife 40 straw plaiter
Sarah Carver dau unm 20 straw plaiter
David Carver son 19 ag lab
Matilda Carver dau 16 straw plaiter
Thomas Carver son 13 scholar
Samuel Carver son 11 scholar
George Carver son 5 scholar
All born Wrestlingworth
Hooray, that's all of them! Glad it wasn't a big village!
Regards
David
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Thanks for that David, very kind of you. I think 1861 must have been a peak year for Carvers. All the best ;) Jan
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Jan
I agree that the James who married Alice in 1852 certainly appears to be Young's son, as the ages fit perfectly. The marriage cert/parish register would ccnfirm this.
Was James christened as a 16 year old in 1846, as there is a christening of James, son of Young and Mercy on the IGI?
Regards
David
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Hi David
Unfortunately James and Alice's marriage certificate confirms nothing as they both declined to give father's details. I've seen the IGI christening and assumed it was as you suggested. That along with James and Alfred Carver being listed, together, in 1890 Kelly's as village wheelwrights and Mercy Carver appearing on 1871 census as Alfred's mother led me to believe Young and Mercy were James' parents. Now your 1841 and 1861 info makes this even more certain. Probably the best I'm going to get until the 1851 census becomes available. Thank you again
Regards Jan :) ;)
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Hi
If you find a link between your Carver ancestors and Norfolk, let me know. I thought my family came from E Yorks until I uncovered a couple of brothers had moved there in the 1840s. Their cousin moved to Newcastle at about the same time. This might indicate a propensity to being itinerant within the family and Bedfordshire is much closer.
I have Thomas Carver b1680 at the top of my tree at present, so there is room for somebody to have moved. However, if you know that your family are Beds since the dark ages, kindly disregard this note.
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Hi Nick
No Norfolk links that I know of. They are certainly Wrestlingworth bound back to late 18th century. If any links crop up I will let you know.
Happy searching ;) Jan
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Hello again Nick,
I'm posting these families from the 1881 census out of interest really, are they any connection with you? It also explains the reduction of carver's in Wrestlingworth between 1861 and 1881, I wonder why they moved to Yorkshire. ??? Jan
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Thomas CARVER Head M Male 32 Wreslingworth, Bedford, England Railway Laberour
Elizbth. CARVER Wife M Female 31 Wreslingworth, Bedford, England Wife
Thomas William CARVER Son Male 13 Wreslingworth, Bedford, England Scholar
Matilda Jane CARVER Daug Female 7 Leeds, York, England Scholar
Ada Emma CARVER Daug Female 4 Castleford, York, England Scholar
Thomas Hy. CARVER Son Male 2 Walpole, Norfolk, England
Source Information:
Dwelling Lawnes Lane
Census Place Stanley Cum Wrenthorpe, York, England
Family History Library Film 1342104
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 4575 / 123
Page Number 61
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Wm. CARVER Head M Male 26 Restleworth, Bedford, England Filler At Worsted Mill
Ann M. CARVER Wife M Female 27 Dunton, Bedford, England
Mary A. CARVER Daur Female 6 Restleworth, Bedford, England Scholar
Jesse CARVER Son Male 4 Restleworth, Bedford, England
Source Information:
Dwelling 55 Wilberforce St
Census Place Pudsey, York, England
Family History Library Film 1342074
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 4484 / 35
Page Number 16
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Lydia CARVER Head W Female 60 Wrestlingworth, Bedford, England
Sarah A. CARVER Dau U Female 40 Wrestlingworth, Bedford, England
David CARVER Son U Male 39 Wrestlingworth, Bedford, England Labourer At Furnaces (I)
George CARVER Son U Male 24 Wrestlingworth, Bedford, England Labourer On Railway
Ellen CARVER Dau U Female 19 Wrestlingworth, Bedford, England
Frederick O. CARVER Son U Male 14 Wrestlingworth, Bedford, England
Source Information:
Dwelling Belle Vue Terrace
Census Place East Ardsley, York, England
Family History Library Film 1342106
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 4583 / 91
Page Number 5
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Levi CARVER Head M Male 34 Wrestlingworth, Bedford, England Labourer At Furnaces (Iron)
Ann CARVER Wife M Female 38 Tadlow, Cambridge, England
Samuel CARVER Son Male 15 Potton, Bedford, England Labourer At Colliery
Maria CARVER Dau Female 10 Wrenthorpe, York, England Scholar
Agnes CARVER Dau Female 9 Wrenthorpe, York, England Scholar
Jane CARVER Dau Female 7 Wrenthorpe, York, England Scholar
Ruth CARVER Dau Female 5 Denby Main, York, England Scholar
Martha CARVER Dau Female 3 Wrenthorpe, York, England
Levi CARVER Son Male 2 Wrenthorpe, York, England
Source Information:
Dwelling Bullocks Row
Census Place East Ardsley, York, England
Family History Library Film 1342106
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 4583 / 111
Page Number 46
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Jan
Thanks for this. There are quite a few W Yorks Carvers that I have not been able to link to our family - perhaps they all come from Beds? My Carvers are mainly in the E Yorks area, but John Carver who moved up to Yorkshire in the late 1830s (current assumption) was living in the city of York when he married in 1840.
There are two strands of Carvers in Norfolk - tradespeople from Norwich and agricultural people from outside. The two may be linked, but if so it is back before the 17th century. I like to try and make sure that anyone researching the name is aware of these facts as although no link may be apparent at present, one might emerge in the future.
Good hunting
Nick
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Thanks Nick, I'll keep an eye open for Norfolk links. Happy searching ;) Jan
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1851 Census Index only
Wrestlingworth Ho 107/1753 B’wade 180/1/12 folios 249-267 Ed 12
Name, Age, Birthplace, ref no.
CARVER
Noah 18 WRE 1
Lydia 19 Cam 2
William 69 WRE 14
Hannah 59 Cam 14
Emma 18 Cam 14
Jane 16 Cam 14
Dan 12 WRE 14
Thomas 35 WRE 16
Lydia 29 WRE 16
Sarah 10 WRE 16
David 8 WRE 16
Matilda 5 WRE 16
Thomas 3 WRE 16
Sam 1m WRE 16
George 64 WRE 19
Mary 57 WRE 19
Simeon 25 WRE 19
Ann 22 WRE 19
Henry 15 WRE 19
Jesse 38 WRE 23
Charlotte 35 Cam 23
Edward 15 WRE 23
Jesse 12 WRE 23
Jonathan 11 WRE 23
David 7 WRE 23
Mary Ann 5 WRE 24
Young 56 WRE 26
Mercy 50 WRE 26
John 23 WRE 26
James 21 WRE 26
George 19 WRE 26
Alfred 16 WRE 26
Ann 10 WRE 26
Regards
criggy
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Hi Criggy,
Thanks for that. :D Jan
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Hi Jan, not sure if this will be of any use but from parish registers which are in local library..........only up to 1812.
Sutton Parish Register.
Baptisms.
9/10/1682 Wm s of Peter/Joan Carver.
16/3/1685 Eliz d of Peter/Joan Carver.
11/3/1689 Alice d of Peter/Joan Carver.
Marriage
25/10/1551 Chris Carver to Isabel Norman.
Burials
None.
Cockayne Hatley Parish Register
Baptisms
11/12/1783 Wm s of Jn/Eliz Carver.
Marriage
25/6/1781 Jn Carver to Eliz Merrington.
Burials
None.
Wrestlingworth Parish Register
Baptisms
23/6/1785 Jn s of Jn/Eliz Carver
14/10/1788 Geo s of Jn/Eliz Carver
29/3/1791 Mary d of Jn/Eliz Calver
3/8/1794 Simeon s of Jn/Eliz Calver
17/3/1799 Young s of Jn/Eliz Carver
17/3/1799 Jane d of Jn/Eliz Carver
12/10/1806 Ann d of Thos/Eliz Carver
Marriage
7/4/1805 Wm Carver(Bassingbourn Cambs) to Eliz Bird
Burials
6/2/1782 Jn Carver inf
30/11/1801 Eliz Carver
14/3/1802 Jesse Carver
31/7/1809 Eliz Carver
Eyeworth Parish Register
Baptism
None
Marriages
4/6/1712 Thos Browne to Alice Carver (of Dunton)
28/3/1812 Jn Carver of Wrestlingworth to Martha Mitchel
Burials
None
Confirms the bap of Young Carver and the marriage of his parents.
Those are all the entries in the PR's to 1812 for each parish. Unless it says otherwise the partners in the marriage are resident of the parish.
Susan
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Hi Susan,
That is fantastic! Thank you everso much. :D :D :D Kind regards Jan
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Hi David or anyone else with access to 1851,
I'm pushing this back up the board as I still need full refs for 1851 as outlined at beginning of thread please. Thanks Jan ;)
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Hi Jan
My 1851 arrived last week, and is in danger of being worn out already!
Recalling how many Carvers there were in 1841/61 I'm in for a long typing session!
HO107/1753 Folios 251->
Morden Rd, Common Farm
Noah Carver servant unm 18 farm lab born Wrestlingworth
in household of
Jabez Saunderson h m 47 farmer 172 acres employing 7 men b Radwell Herts
Cambridge Rd
Lydia Carver visitor unm 19 b Arrington Cambs
in household of
Reuben Chapman h m 44 farm lab b Wrestlingworth
Ann Chapman wife 40 b Tadlow Cambs
Potton End
William Carver h m 69 wheelwright b Wrestlingworth
Hannah Carver wife 59 b Arrington Cambs
Emma Carver dau unm 18 b Arrington Cambs
Jane Carver dau 16 unm b Arrington Cambs
Dan Carver son 12 b Arrington Cambs
Potton End
Thomas arver h m 35 farm lab b Wrestlingworth
Lydia Carver wife 29 b Wrestlingworth
Sarah Carver dau 10 b Wrestlingworth
David Carver son 8 b Wrestlingworth
Matilda Carver dau 5 b Wrestlingworth
Thomas Carver son 3 b Wrestlingworth
Sam Carver son 1 mth b Wrestlingworth
Potton End
George Carver h m 64 wheelwright b Wrestlingworth
Mary Carver wife 57 b Wrestlingworth
Simeon Carver son unm 25 farm lab b Wrestlingworth
Ann Carver dau unm 22 b Wrestlingworth
Henry Carver son 15 farm lab b Wrestlingworth
Potton End
Jesse Carver h m 38 farm lab b Wrestlingworth
Charlotte Carver wife 35 b Morden Cambs
Edward Carver son 15 b Wrestlingworth
Jesse Carver son 12 b Wrestlingworth
Jonathan Carver son 11 b Wrestlingworth
David Carver son 7 b Wrestlingworth
Mary Ann Carver dau 5 b Wrestlingworth
Potton End
Young Carver h m 56 wheelwright b Wrestlingworth
Mercy Carver wife 50 b Wrestlingworth
John Carver son unm 23 farm lab b Wrestlingworth
James Carver son unm 21 farm lab b Wrestlingworth
George Carver son unm 19 farm lab b Wrestlingworth
Alfred Carver son unm 16 farm lab b Wrestlingworth
Ann Carver dau 10 b Wrestlingworth
Levi Carver son 5 b Wrestlingworth
Regards
David
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Thanks everso much David, you're a star :D :D :D Best wishes Jan
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Hi all.
My name is Neil Carver and I'm the Great Great Great Great Grandson of the John Carver who married Elizabeth Merrington at Cockayne Hatley.
I have only recently been researching my family background. Via the 1901 census I was able to get from Samuel Carver Snr, my Great Grandfather (also recorded at East Ardsley, (West) Yorkshire in 1881), back to the village of Wrestlingworth. Having trawled the registers at first the Bedford library and then some at the Bedfordshire County Records office for Wrestlingworth I got back to John Carver.
I then found your correspondence via Google and have now registered with RootsChat. Happy to help anyone if I can who is looking for information going forward from Samuel Carver Snr. I'm now looking to go backwards from John Carver - if anyone knows of any sources I'd be extremely grateful.
Fascinating to read all the information on the Wrestlingworth Carvers. My line descends from George, the brother of Young. (My other family interest is Easby).
Regards,
Neil A. Carver
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Hi Neil,
Welcome to Rootschat. John is also my 4x great grandfather. As yet I haven't managed to go back any further as he didn't come from Wrestlingworth. Have this John marked as a possible:
Jno Carver christened Dunton 24th Sep 1758 parents Jno Carver and Mary Willason
which fits with this burial date
John CARVER Date 10 Feb 1827 Aged 68 Place Wrestlingworth
but haven't explored this further.
I have been trying to find out John's occupation but have had no luck - I can only assume he was a wheelwright. Have you managed to find out any more about him?
Best wishes,
Jan ;)
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Jan,
Thanks for doing this.
I have nothing more currently on John Carver of Cockayne Hatley. I've run some searches on Cockayne Hatley but most of what I've found out seems to have happened post-John Carver's time such as it became a major apple growing area and the poet W.E.Henley is buried in the churchyard at CH.
At the moment I'm slightly overwhelmed with the amount of new information I need to document - it'll keep me busy for a while! I'm based in North Yorkshire so it'll be some time before I can hunt through Bedfordshire-based documents again.
Regards,
Neil.
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Link below.
Not sure if anyone has come across this but it's an account of the background leading up to a notorious murder committed in Wrestlingworth in 1842 and an account of the subsequent investigation and trial which followed.
A key witness in the trial referred to, was a "Mrs. Carver of Potton". Several other villagers and local landmarks also referred to.
Regards,
Neil.
http://www.schools.bedfordshire.gov.uk/gaol/Media/dazley/murdermostfoul.htm
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Thanks for that Neil. What a shame they didn't give a first name for Mrs Carver ::)
I will post if I find out anymore about John.
Best wishes
Jan ;)
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I went to Bedford County Records office and dug out the newspaper account of the time and the Mrs. Carver referred to was a Mary Carver. She had gone to Potton to obtain medication for her husband and was returning to Wrestlingworth when she witnessed the defendant getting rid of the pills. Of the Mary Carvers I know of, the most likely seems to be Mary Carver nee Bird, wife of George Carver.
I also went to the Cambridge County Records Office to follow up the Arrington group of Carvers and with the intention of looking for any Carvers who might link-up to the Wrestlingworth Carvers in the 1750s. There is a Carver 'hotspot' in Melbourn which pre-dates the Wrestlingworth Carvers and continues well into the 1800s. I recall that at least one Carver ('William of Bassingbourn' was married at Wrestlingworth. Melbourn was in the 'hundred' of Bassingbourn and is itself only 14 miles from Wrestlingworth. So far I've established no hard link. Does anyone know anything of these Melbourn Carvers? (A Carver founded the non-conformist school in Melbourn around 1790).
Cheers, Neil.
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Hi Neil
Nice to hear from you again. Yes I found the Melbourn Carvers and did wonder if they were connected to our lot. The William of Bassingbourne must be I think as he married Elizabeth Bird haven't found either of them in 1841 though. Have got the Melbourn lot in 41, a William and Elizabeth but they are 45 and 40 - too young to be William of Bassingbourne and Elizabeth Bird, too old for William to be their son :( Haven't looked into any further but if I find anything will let you know.
I agree that Mary carver is most likely to be George's wife - thanks for letting me know what you found out.
Cheers Jan ;)
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I'm watching the eastwards drift of this thread with interest to see if there may be any possible link with the Carvers of Norfolk (from whom I am descended). In Isleham, Cambs where I live, there is only one Carver record in the parish registers - Robert Carver from Barton who married here in 1697. Barton is not far from Melbourn and Isleham is not far from Barton, nor importantly, from Norfolk, which is less than 10 miles away.
Of course this could all be a complete coincidence, but it still interests me to watch what's going on. I think that my branch of the Carver family take their name from the old English word that means 'ploughman' or suchlike, rather than the more obvious wood carver. There is a family farm in Norfolk and a wood named Carvers Carr.
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Hi Nick
I've been looking again at the Wrestlingworth Carvers I posted from the 1881 census who decamped to Yorkshire and notice that the first family has a 2yr old born in Walpole Norfolk - which may be coincidence. Also checked out children of William and Elizabeth Carver on the IGI in the right time frame for the William of Bassingbourn and Elizabeth Bird - none in Beds or Cambs but a clutch in Rothwell, Yorks. Again might mean nothing at all, but is all very interesting :D Will have to keep burrowing. Might venture onto the Yorks board and see if anyone can do an 1841/51 lookup for me.
Cheers Jan ;)
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Jan
There is a clutch of W Yorks Carvers as well. Totally unrelated to my E Yorks Carvers who decamped there in the 1840s. Rothwell is on the E side of Leeds. I am very intrigued by the way this thread is developing. I rather suspect we will never find a common ancestor, but it is more entertaining watching something develop in this way than having no idea at all about what is going on.
Nick
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Hi again,
I know of three "Wrestlingworth" Carvers who later appeared in Yorkshire who were born in Walpole, Norfolk. There are several villages in this area which take the name Walpole. This group also seemed to have stopped further north en-route to Yorkshire, around Gainsborough, in Lincolnshire.
I checked with the researchers at Bedford County Records office why so many of the Wrestlingworth villagers ended up in the East Ardsley area (not just Carvers) and they checked out a couple of things (Duke of Bedford being a landowner in both parts or some Poor Law Union connection but could not come up with anything. The next step to resolving this connundrum was to re-visit the East Ardsley end but alas I'm off abroad tomorrow for eight months and have now packed away all my notes, so can't do any more!
Regards,
Neil.
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Gets more fascinating by the minute :D Just looked in 1841 and there are 14 Carver in Gainsborough the two older men are born out of county. None in Walpole St Peter or St Andrew. Look forward to hearing more when you return Neil.
Best wishes
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan.
I'm now back in the UK and starting to pick things up again.
With regard to the John Carver who married Mary Willason in 1745 in Dunton. I noticed in the previous reference to him in this thread by you, you did not mention the fact that he is recorded in the Dunton registers as being from Everton at the time of the marriage. Was this something you were already aware of? There are also seven children born 1746-1761 in Dunton to a John and Mary Carver.
Apologies if this is all 'old hat'.
Cheers,
Neil.
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A total coincidence saw me in Walpole St Peter this week. That is where the church that served the Walpoles is located. FWIW, it is widely reckoned to be the finest parish church in these islands and I can well believe it,
There are many, many Carvers from Norfolk. There seems to be a line of craftsmen from Norwich and the surrounding area and my own branch from the Norfolk broads. There may be a common ancestor for this bunch. One of my Carver cousins (6th cousin, I think) has a theory that the family hails from the North Walsham area, which is to the west of Norwich and not so far from the Walpoles.
As said before, I doubt there is any documentary evidence to link these families together, but it is rather interesting to believe so, Now all I need to find out is whether the W Yorkshire Carvers have any idea where their branch of the family originated.
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Neil
Welcome back. The info you give is new to me - had got no further than flagging up John son of John Carver and Mary Willason as possible for our John.
Nick
Look forward to hearing anything else you find out
Will give the matter some more thought myself
Jan ;)
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A little more on their wanderings
First there are no Bedfordshire born Carvers in Yorkshire before 1871
There are a lot of West Yorkshire born Carvers in the Leeds area on earlier censuses some in Pudsey which is where some of the Wrestlingworth Carvers landed. They include George Carver born Leeds circa 1839 he is a Joiner and Cabinet maker son of George born Rothwell circa 1816.
In 1841 there is a John Carver in Leeds born out of county circa 1816. On later censuses he is in the Hull area and gives his birthplace as Bramerton Norfolk.
Jan ;)
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Janan
There we go full circle. The John Carver (Leeds 1841, later Hull) is my 2xg grandfather. He married in York in 1840 (still searching for details of his wife's Maltby parents) and later, two of his brothers joined him in Hull, populating the city with a veritable plethora of Carvers. There was at least one other Carver family in Hull before his arrival - perhaps they were distantly related leading to the move there in the first place, or perhaps coincidence? There is also Joshua Carver originally from Nottingham also moving to Hull between 1840 and 1850 and confusing me with his children and their descendants.
I looked on http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/YKSlist/YKSCaa-Caz.htm to find the names of a few people who are researching Yorkshire Carvers and will contact them to see what they can contribute to the debate. Will post results here.
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Look forward to hearing more :D
Jan ;)
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'Wrestlingworth-Walpole' Carvers
A couple of 'my' Carvers for you:
GEORGE THOMAS CARVER b Walpole @ 1876
This is my Grand Uncle who on the 1901 census appeared in Leeds as a Bookkeeper aged 24.
THOMAS HENRY CARVER b Walpole @ 1878
This is my 1st cousin twice removed who I have only on the 1881
census. There is a WW1 record for a Private Thomas H. Carver (62684) who served in the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (KOYLI) which may or may not be one and the same person.
These two were first cousins.
Cheers, Neil.
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Hi Neil
Do you have access to the censuses?
I've found Thomas in 1891 his birthplace is given as Walpole St Andrews Suffolk. Thomas senior is remarried to an Isabella (Endersby) from Wrestlingworth. Can post details if you need them.
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan.
The info about THOMAS HENRY I obtained from the online 1881 census (National Archives) where THOMAS HY CARVER is recorded as born abt 1879 in Walpole, Norfolk, England. He is located at Stanley-cum-Wrenthorpe aka Wrenthorpe near to East Ardsley, in present-day West Yorkshire. He is there with siblings Thomas William, Matilda Jane and Ada Emma along with his father THOMAS.
The info on GEORGE THOMAS came from the 1881 census records for East Ardsley at the Leeds Records Office which records Walpole, Norfolk as the birthplace and the age as 4. A GEORGE THOMAS is on the 1901 online census aged 24, in Leeds born at Walpole.
I checked my AA Atlas and Walpole St. Andrew is shown as being in Norfolk, unless there is another Walpole St. Andrew...any 1891 info is particularly useful for me because I have not found where the East Ardsley/Wrenthorpe Carvers were in 1891 but I have found a lot of them in 1901. I recall Endersby being a common Wrestlingworth name.
Cheers,
Neil
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I can well see why there may be some confusion about Walpole. There are several villages called collectively The Walpoles. as far as I know, there is one church at Walpole St Peter to cover them all. Presumably there was a St Andrews church once upon a time.
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Neil
Here is the 1891 info for you
Mill Lane, Hanging Heaton, Soothill, Yorkshire
Thomas Carver Head M 43 Railway Platelayer Wrestlingworth Beds
Isabella do Wife M 31 Gilden Morden Cambs
Matilda do Daughter S 17 Woollen Cloth weaver Leeds
Ada do do 14 Castleford Yorks
Thomas do Son 11 Scholar Walpole St Andrews Suffolk
Ellen do Dau 9 do East Ardsley Yorks
Jesse do do 4 Leeds
Joseph Endersby Son 7 Wrestlingworth
Alfred do do 6 do
George do do 8mo do
RG12/3736/15 Pg23
I'm sure the Suffolk bit is just a mistake.
Yes I've come across alot of Endersbys in Wrestlingworth.
I'll see if I can find George in 1891 - don't hestitate to ask if there is anyone else you need looking for.
By the way have you any Carver photos? All I have is one of Robert Carver my great grandfather (John's great grandson) - happy to email you a copy should you want. I also have a copy of a booklet from 2002 "Wrestlingworth Recalled" which is well worth getting - I'll try and find how I got hold of it.
Jan ;)
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1891
15 Derby Pl Hunslet
Samuel Carver Head M 39 Foundry labourer Beds Wrestlingworth
Emma do Wife 36 Beds Sutton
Jonah H do Son 18 Cabinet Maker do do
Ada M Dau 16 Tailoress do do
George T do Son 14 Errand boy Norfolk Walpole
Frederick Wm do do 12 Scholar Lincs Tydd go?t
Fanny E do Dau 10 do East Ardsley Yorks
Louisa do do 6 do do do do
Samuel do Son 4 Leeds
RG12/3665/50 Pg43
Jan ;)
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Photographs are a good idea. My 6th cousin reckons there are traditional Carver looks. Try his web site http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/c/a/r/Glenn-W-Carver/index.html and see if the swarthy dark complexion fits any of your ancestors. That might be a reasonable way to suspect a link, however it proves nothing one way or another.
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Interesting site Nick and yes my great grandfather Robert Carver does bear a resemblance but as you say this proves nothing
Jan ;)
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Jan (Nick)
Re: Frederick Wm. Carver on the 1891 census at Hunslet. I strongly suspect based on what you write, that his birthplace is Tydd Gote, Lincs. If you check this place out, it is just a straight 3-4 miles from the Norfolk Walpoles and is right on the present county line. Frederick Wm. would therefore be another 'Wrestlingworth-Walpole' Carver, born about 1878. His brother George Thomas, was two years older and was born in Walpole suggesting that my line of Carvers were in this area for at least three years in the late 1870s and for a probable maximum of five years. They were in West Yorkshire for the 1881 census.
I was passing through Hertford during the week and dropped in on the Herts County Records Office (very plush). There seems very little Carver activity in the north of the county, adjacent to Wrestlingworth/Dunton in Beds. and Arrington, Bassingbourn and Melbourn, Cambs. The only person who grabbed my attention was:
SAMUEL CARVER (Wheelwright) who married MARY PRYOR at Hitchin St. Mary in 1759.
Cheers, Neil.
Neil.
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"SAMUEL CARVER (Wheelwright) who married MARY PRYOR at Hitchin St. Mary in 1759."
Now he's an interesting find - a Carver wheelwright earlier than George, Young and William. I've always assumed their father John must have been a wheelwright but haven't as yet been able to prove this. Worth exploring further.
Jan ;)
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The IGI has 4 children of a Samuel and Mary baptised on the same day 25 Mar 1768 in Hitchin - Thomas John Elizabeth and Mary. This could be our John :-\.
Jan ;)
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Sadly, those people on the W Yorks surname interest board researching Carvers no longer have the e-mail address specified on the URL, so dead end for now I'm afraid.
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Sadly, those people on the W Yorks surname interest board researching Carvers no longer have the e-mail address specified on the URL, so dead end for now I'm afraid.
That is so irritating - I've contacted several people connected to various branches of my family only to have the email bouncing back.
Jan ;)
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Hi again. Seasons greetings.
Sorry, I have no new info, rather I am looking for assistance please. My grandfather Samuel Carver (1887-5.7.1929), great-grandson of George Carver (1788-1872) died at 8 Darnborough Street, Leeds (now site of Yorkshire TV studios). The Family Records Centre at Leeds is not the best I've ever been too and I've spent hours trying to locate where he was buried without success. There was only one cremation site in Leeds at the time and he is not recorded there either.
His mother, Emma Carver b. Sutton, Beds., 1854, died at the same address in the second quarter of 1928 and I can not find her either. The staff at the Records Office say they can not trace them on the National Burial Register or on the Leeds sub-section. I understand this register is by no means comprehensive but I have no access to one currently.
Anyone any ideas on where to go next? I have always assumed that because both are 'missing'; died at the same location and at most just 14 months apart that wherever one of them is, the other will be.
Also if anyone has any advice on family tree software packages I'd be interested. I bought the one I have now just to get me started and it is extremely limited in its tree-printing capabilities and I am now looking to upgrade.
Kind regards,
Neil.
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Hi Neil
Lovely to hear from you again :D
I don't have any new info on the Carvers either having been burrowing around in London and Canada - paternal grandfather's mother's side.
I'm not very up on tracing where ancestors are buried beyond those who appear on the NBI or local equivalents. A bit of googling threw up these sites which may help if you've not already found them
http://www.beckettstreetcemetery.org.uk/
http://yorkshireancestors.com/librarycontents.htm
http://www.familia.org.uk/services/england/leeds.html
You could also post a separate enquiry on the Yorkshire board - someone with local knowledge may be able to assist.
As for family tree software - my research is mostly flying about on various bits of paper :D I do use Brothers Keeper which I find fine but my standards are low.
Cheers and seasons greetings
Jan ;)
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I found out about my grandfather's grave and also that of his in-laws by contacting Gateshead local council. They have a cemeteries officer who told me exactly where to find the grave. I went looking for my grandfather who died in 1938 and to find the in-laws was a bonus. Try this route - I have been less successful in other places, but you may be lucky.
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My name is Margaret Dowd. My father was John Eric Carver. John's father was George Thomas Carver who married Ruth Elizabeth Schofield. George Thomas Carver's parents were Samuel Carver and Emma Cox. Thomas Carver's parents were Thomas Carver and Lydia Bird.
George Thomas Carver and his wife Ruth Elizabeth Schofield and their family moved to Canada, George came in 1910 and Ruth and her children moved to Canada about 1913.
George's brother Jonah Cox Carver also came to Canada.
Please contact me.
Margaret Dowd
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
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Hi Margaret
Welcome to Rootschat - I'm glad you found your way here eventually :D
I did send your email address to Neil but he's not been here lately. May I suggest you modify your posting to remove your email address to avoid possibility of spamming? You never know who might be lurking around a public board :o You will get notified by email of any replies received on this board.
Happy hunting
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan
In case anyone needs this information, I have the date register for Thomas Carver, husband of Lydia Carver/Bird. He died February 2, 1876 in Wrestlingworth. He was 59 at the time. He was a laborer and died accidentally falling from a (? unable to read) of bushes on a cart. Certificate was received from Mark Whyley, coroner for Bedfordshire, Bedford. Inquires were held February 4, 1876.
I also have the death register for Lydia Carver, the widow of Thomas Carver, a farm laborer. She died January 3, 1884 in East Ardsley, Yorkshire. Cause of death was senile decay (interesting wording). Her daughter-in-law, Emma Carver was present at the death. She lived in East Ardsley.
I have also ordered the birth register for George Thomas Carver who was born in Norfold March 1877. Sure hope this is the right one. We were always told he was born in Yorkshire.
Thanks
Maggie
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Hi again
According to censuses George Thomas was born in Walpole Norfolk but lived in Yorkshire from a young age - hope you have the right certificate. I'm sure Neil will be interested in the info on Thomas and Lydia if he does not have it already.
Jan ;)
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Hi all,
Just a quick note to say I'm back and that I have e-mailed Margaret in Canada.
Thanks.
Neil.
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Hi Neil and Jan
Just received the birth register for my grandfather George Thomas Carver. Seems his name was Thomas George.
Here are the details:
Born: December 12, 1876 Walpole, Saint Andrew
Name: Thomas George Carver, boy
Name and surname of father: Samuel Carver
Name, surname and maiden name of mother: Emma Carver formerly Cox
Occupation of father: agricultural labourer
Signature, description and residence of informant: Emma Carver, mother, Walpole, Saint Andrew
When registered: February 5 1877
Signature of registrar: William Winterton
Registration district Wisbech, 1877 birth in the sub-district of Walpole St. Peter in the county of Norfolk
It has only taken 25 years to finally find his birth registration
Maggie
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That's great Maggie :D
I suppose the family knew he grew up in Yorkshire so assumed he must have been born there - ah well got him now. I think 25 years to find it must be some sort of record.
Jan ;)
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Hi Neil
Welcome back. I haven't anymore to offer on this lot at the moment.
Jan ;)
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Just a footnote to Wisbech. It's only a couple of miles from Wisbech to the Walpoles but today as soon as you leave Wisbech town you cross from Cambridgeshire into Norfolk. I use to live in Cambridgeshire for 8 years and my recollections are that the county lines in this area have moved often and in modern times as well, between Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Lincolnshire (and Huntingdonshire too) which might be connected to all the water drainage changes that occurred over the years. I believe the Ouse may have been re-routed at one point to become the Old and New.
Neil.
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The Walpoles are in the diocese of Ely, which is an indication of its origins. Walpole St Peter is one of the most interesting and attractive churches in the country, well worth a visit if you get the chance.
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Hi all
Been doing a bit of census searching
In 1841 the only Carvers in Bedfordshire are those in Wrestlingworth
51 is much the same with a few now in Cockayne Hatley, one Houghton Regis, one Biggleswade.
Put in Bedfordshire born Carvers and none have moved out of county.
61 again much the same Wrestlingworth, Cockayne Hatley plus a few drifters.
All bedfordshire born still in county except one family in Clifton. Bristol
71 still the bulk are in Wrestlingworth/Cockayne Hatley but a few more drifters and for Bedfordshire born a little more spread across the country, including the first in Yorkshire
In Micklefield there is David Carver 28 Mar Lime Burner Beds Besvor ??? (should Wrestlingworth, problem with strong Bedfordshire accent I would imagine)
81 much the same in Beds itself, but for Beds born the decamp to Yorks has occurred. David was presumably the scout.
None of this takes count of any mistranscriptions and ignores the Cambs born children of William(Young and George's brother) and Hannah, but gives an interesting picture nonetheless.
It would seem that although there are earlier Bedfordshire Carvers on the IGI by 41 all Beds Carvers are descendants of John and Elizabeth :o
Jan ;)
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Not sure if I have posted this before, but here is a link to my 6th cousin Glenn's (unmaintained) home page http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/c/a/r/Glenn-W-Carver/index.html
He has traced the Norfolk Carvers back to the 17th Century and at that time it appears that there were two separate groupings: a bunch of skilled craftsmen in and around Norwich and the farming Carvers who in our case were in the area of the broads.
Glenn suspects the family of originating from the area near North Walsham, to the north and west of Norwich and it is quite plausible that with a drift south and east in our case, this is matched by a drift to the west in the case of the Beds Carvers.
Nice theory, now all we have to do is to prove it. If nothing else, the photographs on Glenn's site are well worth checking out.
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Good site Nick - think I have been there before, so guess it is posted somewhere else.
Another thought - looking on the IGI there are earlier Bedfordshire Carvers, mostly from the Wrestlingworth or Bedford area. Since by 1841 they are only in Wrestlingworth and as far as I can ascertain are all descendents of John and Elizabeth, where did the descendents of the other Carvers go - there does seem to be a lot of females but there are some males ???
Jan ;)
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Hi everyone
Just found this
Apprentices
1744 Carver Sam Thos of Southill Beds to Edw Watts of Hitchin Whlw £12
Now doesn't that fit nicely with the Samuel Carver (wheelwright) marriage to Mary Pryor in Hitchin in 1759 :D
And Southill is only 6miles from Wrestlingworth
I have also made contact with a lady with a Thomas Carver born c 1690 who became a NC preacher in Southill, have let her know of the above and given her a link to here.
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan
I have the transcript of Southill Independent, later Baptist, Church book in which Thos Carver features (he was deacon) plus John Carver who was Pastor at Wellingborough Ind Church, although he was a Southill native (possibly son of Thomas). I also have the Southill PR transcript if you need anything checked.
But if they were anything like my Southill Baptist ancestors there's a black hole between 1700 and 1800. They went into the sausage machine in 1700, and were still in the village 100 years later, but I have only a vague idea of what happened between times. No baptisms at all.
Is it a record for a thread that has been running for over 2 years, 5 pages, read nearly 1300 times, to be moved to a different board? (Just kidding Rick, it's character has changed from it's original look up request!!!)
Regards
David
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Hi David
Thanks for the offer
If you can see a Samuel Thomas Carver born c1730 that would be great
The John you mention is almost certainly son of Thomas but did Thomas also have a Samuel? The lady I mentioned above thinks he might.
Re moving of thread - I really ought to have asked for it to be moved a year or more ago :D Thanks Rick
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan
From the Baptist Church book
1719 December the 3d at our church meeting we received Thomas Carver of Southill
1737 Oct 28. Conveyance of the Meeting House from the old trustees to the new trustees, one of whom was Thomas Carver labourer of Southill. In a further conveyance on 20 Nov 1765 he was not listed among the surviving trustees, so it was presumably him who was buried in 1762.
1741 April the 30 Received Mary Carver wife to Brother Carver of Southill
1756 June 17 Received John Carver of Southill Warrin
1757 June the 16 At our church meeting Brother Thomas Carver was ordained Deacon* see end
1762 25 Nov .....Brother John Carver** called to the office of Deacon; and
1763 20 Jan, John Carver accepted the call of the church and was admitted to the office of a Deacon.
1764 25 Oct the church called brother John Carver to preach before them having for some time exercised his gift in private in his own house and unanimously called him to a public preaching the word where providence should call him.
...after Mr Field's Settlement (he was Pastor 1763-74) Mr John Carver, a native of Southill, and who had been chosen Deacon before, was called to the work of the ministry of this church. He was a worthy man, and a good preacher. He was for many years Pastor of the Old Independent Church. at Wellingborough at which place he died. (Can't tell when this was written)
So that I think establishes that they were a very serious baptist family, which explains why, as I'm sure you've seen on the IGI, pre 1812 there's not a single Carver baptism in Southill parish register.
The marriages in the PR transcript are as follows:
11 Feb 1655/6 William Carver & Margaret Usher by Justice Whitbread
20 May 1754 John Carver & Ann Dunton both of Southill (I have Southill Duntons in my tree. Big baptists as well - a nightmare to trace!)
26 Dec 1765 Thomas widower m Mary Vintiner widow , both of Southill
27 Nov 1780 Joseph Negus of Bedford St Peter m Mary Carver of Southill
Banns were called 16 Dec 1781 for Susan with Robert Tarry of St Mary Bedford (despite the member submissions on the IGI these were banns only with no trace of a subsequent marriage)
Burials
2 Aug 1728 Rebecca, infant, dau of Thomas
9 Nov 1750 A child of Thomas Carvers
7 Dec 1758 Mary wife of Thomas
5 Sept 1760 Susan wife of Thomas
27 Mar 1762 Thomas "D" (=Dissenter?)
30 Mar 1765 James, infant, son of John & Ann
14 Nov 1765 Elizabeth, infant, dau of John & Ann "D"
20 Apr 1794 Thomas labourer
5 Apr 1811 Mary
If Samuel was from Southill and was born c 1730 in all likelihood he was the son of Thomas. Proving it is a different ball game.
I'm afraid it was as I suspected it might be - marriages/burials but no baptisms. Are you good at 3D jigsaw puzzles with some of the pieces missing? (in fact it looks fairly straightforward. Pity there's no reference to Samuel, but your apprenticeship record links him pretty firmly with Southill).
A Thomas Carver m Susan Turner 4 Dec 1746 at Lower Gravenhurst (about 6 miles across the fields from Southill)
Good luck
David
PS What about the Samuel Carver marriage in St Ippolyts, a mile south of Hitchin, in 1754?
* Someone on the net has this Thomas as born 1733 (which I think judging by the 1746 marriage above is too late). I think it was Thomas the elder who was the Deacon. There's no sign that Thomas the younger was ever a church member, although he may well have been part of the congregation
**this fits with the burial of Thomas the elder, Deacon, earlier in the year
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Hi David
Thank you for setting all that out.
The facts so far
George, William and Young sons of John and Elizabeth were all wheelwrights in Wrestlingworth the earliest mention being 1820 (from a bastardy recogniscance for Young)
John Carver age 68 was buried in Wrestlingworth in 1827
John Carver (occupation unknown) married Elizabeth Merrington in Cockayne Hatley in 1781
John Wilson wheelwright was buried in Wrestlingworth in 1779
4 children - John, Thomas, Elizabeth and Mary - parents Samuel and Mary Carver were baptised on the same day in 1768 in Hitchin
Samuel Carver wheelwright married Mary Pryor in Hitchin in 1759
Samuel Thomas Carver of Southill is apprenticed to Edward Watts wheelwright of Hitchin in 1744
Possibilities
Samuel Thomas Carver was son of Thomas Carver of Southill
Samuel Thomas Carver of Southill apprentice wheelwright in Hitchin is same person as Samuel Carver wheelwright who married Mary Pryor in Hitchin
The children baptised in Hitchin are those of the above couple
The John Carver son of Samuel and Mary Carver is a late baptism for John born circa 1759 who married Elizabeth Merrington
John was a wheelwright like his father and sons
When John Wilson died in 1779 the Wrestlingworth wheelwright shop was taken over by Samuel Thomas Carver and/or John Carver
It does feel that things are coming together but as you say proving things is another matter - if only there was a will somewhere >:( ;D
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan
The Samuel part of it looks right.
The weakness as I see it is that you have nothing to connect John who married Elizabeth in Cockayne Hatley, with John son of Samuel. What was the marriage entry? Did it give his parish of residence? Without some sort of linkage it's pure speculation.
Samuel was a wheelwright; John's children were wheelwrights. But was John ever described as such in the baptisms of his children.? And whilst I'm not a great believer in naming patterns, John didn't name any of his children Samuel. *
Have you checked burials in Hitchin to see if John died young/was buried there?
There's no Samuel Carver buried in Beds
Have you ruled out John Carver baptised in 1758 in Dunton, 2 miles from Wrestlingworth? To me, on the face of it, he looks a much more suitable candidate. His age at death is spot on, and other than a burial of a JOhn Carver in Dunton in 1772, who may well have been his father, I can't see what became of him if he didn't marry Elizabeth Merrington. (Just thinking out loud!!!)
I remain unconvinced about the Hitchin John!
Regards
David
* There's a John, infant, buried in Wrestlingworth on 6 Feb 1782, who may have been the first child of John & Elizabeth - named after John's father??
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Hi David
Thank you for your thoughts on this one. I agree there are holes in the puzzle.
The original entries for John's marriage, his children's baptisms and his burial have been checked by the kind souls at BLARS - no occupation given. They have also checked for a will for John, but they could not find one.
I haven't ruled out the John Carver from Dunton - until Samuel happened along he was top of the pile.
Not a huge believer in naming patterns myself as most of my lot don't seem to go in for it. John didn't name any of his children Samuel or Thomas but both names appear in the next generation. Maybe there is some link between the families other than father/son.
Yes a check for burials for both John and Samuel in Herts would seem a good next plan.
Regards
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan
I wonder if the Dunton family were wheelwrights? Or alternatively if John served his apprenticeship with John Wilson, and took over the business in 1779 - but if that were the case he would probably have been described as of Wrestlingworth when he married in 1781.
Did the witnesses at his marriage add anything of value?
Regards
David
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Hi David
The Parish Register entries given to me by Waterfall early in this thread don't give any witnesses for the marriage - they should be there as it was after 1754 ??? Need to look into that. And no residence given, so making him of Cockayne Hatley.
Hmm need to think on this some more
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan
I think Susan took the details from the transcript which doesn't include marriage witnesses. You need the PR microfilm for those details. The transcript does give details if from another parish though.
Regards
David
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Thanks David - need to contact those nice people at BLARS again. I've found a bastardy recognisance mentioned for John likely father of the Dunton John which may be worth looking into from occupation point of view.
Jan ;)
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Hi Neil
Welcome back. I haven't anymore to offer on this lot at the moment.
Jan ;)
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Hi all pommy carvers
Att Jan + Bedfordshire Boy + Easby Carver etc
The worm has finally arived down under
I have found your site but stuck re connecting/contributing etc.
I'm carrying the "naughty" Carver gene , per the transported ( 1792) Benjamin, son of Rev John who was the son of Thomas deacon of Southill .
Very keen to get the hang of connecting
Aussie Carver ( beverley
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Hi Beverley
Welcome to Rootschat :D Your second post has connected fine. You should get email notification of any replies or just login to Rootchat and click on show new replies link (in blue at top right under your name). At the moment I'm unclear whether I'm directly descended from the Southill Carvers but am sure there is some kind of link. More rootling to be done. Would like to hear tales of your Benjamin.
Happy hunting
Jan ;)
PS your sending of a Personal Message to me was successful too - I will email you
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Melbourn (camb) Carvers
1770 school establised by Rev Wm Carver (dissenter)
He was the son of Rev John Carver (D) originally of Southill . He also preached at Kirtling in 1770s ( where William was born). and finally at Port Pot ( he had it built) of Wellingborough where he died 1797.
The Rev William 's son ,Wm Crole b 1794 mar Eliz Scruby and continued running the school. They had 9 children born in Melbourn .
I am descended from Rev William's brother Benjamin who was the family sinner and as a result of his highway activities, was transported in 1792.
beverley Humphries
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Hi Beverley
See you can do it :D
It would be fascinating to know what sent Benjamin on the road to crime - being the son of such an upright fellow as a Baptist minister. Can only speculate.
Jan ;)
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looking for living descendants of original Southill Carvers - Thomas /Mary.
Capt Arthur E. Carver R.A.M.C 1916/1917. son of Edmond (b. 1824 Melbourn Camb) also doctor of Cambridge
Arthur was Physician --Vice Pres Torbay Med Soc 1939
He died 1947.- then I hit the wall.-
in appreciation
Aussie Carver
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Hi Jan,
Re More Carvers of Southill.
Per Rev John Carver's will ,- he/ Ann mar 20/5/1854
ch
John *
Thomas
Mary
Martha
William - b 1770 Kirkling camb ( dad preaching there.) only birth details I have.
- infants 1m+1f, died 1765 - Southill.
I "guess" a number of the above were also born Southill.
Which may complicate your research into the many Johns and Toms .
John was obviously a naughty boy like my Benjamin because he received 1 shilling "if he applies for the same"
Not sure if this will be alerted to you or just go on the thread.
Beverley -aussie Carver
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Carver "Dissenters" of Bedefordshire
Was there a D/ Meeting Place in Turvey ?
If not, where was the nearest to there and any know if there is Church Book re that group ?
Or anyone come across any Carvers in the records of other "D" Church Books , anywhere ?
thanks
beverley
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Hi Beverley
This is a good site for searching out living relatives
http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/register.asp?wci=form
The subscription is about £10 if you want to be able to contact people or you can enter family details and wait for others to contact you for free :D I've had quite a bit of success.
Tracing forward is so much more difficult than going back ::)
Have you found a marriage for your Arthur? You could start a new topic and put out a specific request for help with him.
Jan ;)
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Re Turvey Baptists
http://website.lineone.net/%7Egsward/baptist.html
Turvey isn't listed so I suppose that would mean there wasn't a meeting house there - perhaps that is why Thomas and Mary settled in Southill :-\
Thanks for the list of John's children will add them to my file and one day hopefully make sense of things
Jan ;)
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Hi Beverley :)
Carver "Dissenters" of Bedefordshire Was there a D/ Meeting Place in Turvey ?
No Carvers but might help to put in your favourites.
http://www.turvey.homestead.com/nonconform.html
Sandy
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No Longer needed
full refs for these people in 1851 in Wrestllingworth. If anyone is able to do that it would be much appreciated.
Young Carver born Wrestlingworth circa 1799 wheelwright
Mercy Carver his wife born Wrestlingworth circa 1801
James Carver born Wrestlingworth circa 1830 Wheelwright
Alice Handley (married James Carver in 1852) born Wrestlingworth circa 1825
Letitia (Letty or even Louisa) Handley Alice's mother born in Cockayne Hatley circa 1806
Any other Carver's in the village would be of interest as they all appear to be related. Thank you in anticipation Jan
I am entering the census into my file for James Carver and Alice Handley and I noticed on the1871 census for Werestlingworth the name of Pete Handley a widower who is a boarder with the family. He is 65. A relation of some kind? And then on the 1881 census of Wrestlingworth I noticed the name of Louisa Handley, grandmother, widow age 77.
All for now
Marg
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Hi Marg
If you look at the image for the 71 entry you will see that 65 year old Pete is female :D and that it actually says Lete - short for Letitia - another wonderful mistranscription from Ancestry. She becomes Louisa in 81 - listed as grandmother rather than mother in law, only assume info was entered by one of the children. On one of the earlier censuses she is Sally ??? :D
Jan ;)
Also on 71 James and Robert are said to be Millers - as they are wheelrights/carpenters on all other censuses and in trade directories this seems highly unlikely. Can only assume James gave his trade as Journeyman Wheeler, which would have sounded like Willer in a Bedfordshire accent and then got transposed to Miller.
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I see it now. Thanks for the correction.
Marg
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Thought you might be interested in this. A friend called me up and said that she had seen me on TV the other evening. I hasten to add that she knows me very well indeed. Puzzled, I managed to find out that she had seen Nick Carver, Chief Exec of the Lister Hospital in Stevenage. I found a picture of him on the web site but couldn't see the resemblence myself. However, as somebody else had also seen the story in question and also thought it was me, perhaps there is a strong resemblence which leads me to wonder if that is coincidence or because we are related in some way.
All this is relevant because of my musings about trying to see if a strong physical resemblence between different arms of the Carver family might indicate a genetic link in an earlier generation. Now, all I need to do is to find out something about the history of my namesake. I will try an e-mail and let you all know what transpires (usual reaction is no response at all).
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Hope he gets back to you and knows something about his ancestors
Jan ;)
More interesting census facts
There are no Carvers in Hertfordshire in 1841
All Cambridgeshire Carvers in 1841 are descendants of Bedfordshire Carvers
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I am trying to put people together into my files and I am having a problem with James Carver and Sophia and their children Amos and Jabez. On the 1841 census James was 30, Sophia was 25, Amos was 9 and Jabez was 4, all born in Wrestlingworth. Who were his parents?
The only James I have is the James who married Alice Handley. His parents were Young Carver and Mercy Bird.
I had many of the families together as groups from information on the IGI but I wasn't able to put them together in the overall picture. Neil provided me with a lot of information which helps tie in some of the groups I have and leaves questions with others.
Any help is appreciated.
Marg
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Hmm tis another puzzle ??? James born circa 1807 consistently gives his birthplace as Wrestlingworth on 51 to 71 censuses but doesn't appear on the IGI or in the parish register transcriptions given by waterfull earlier in the thread. I have no idea who he belongs to I'm afraid.
There is also the case of the missing Simeon son of John who I haven't as yet married or killed off. He isn't on the IGI either but is on the transcripts.
At the moment I'm still trying to track down who our John belongs to - am awaiting some wills which fingers crossed may throw some light on the subject. Will post details once I have them.
Jan ;)
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Hi,
I have been introduced to this site by the lady who has been in contact with Jan as well as knowing Beverley (Aussie Carver), who are both related to me, albeit distantly.
I have a skeleton tree that links my London Carvers to both the Southill and Melbourn Cambs Carvers, although the Southill link has to be definitely proved. I will go through all the info posted earlier to see if it fits with my suppositions.
Interestingly some of my London Carvers migrated to W Yorks, where I was born, Lincs and Newcastle on Tyne at the turn of the last century. I wonder if this was because of family links.
Another branch also moved to Ickleton in Cambs.
Anyway, I will put some outline info on here idc, but be aware that I will be extremely busy with hols and moving house in the next 2/3 months.
Chris Carver
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Hi Chris
Nice to see you here :D It is getting quite a gathering of the clan.
That's very interesting about your London Carvers migrating to west Yorks - whereabouts?
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
The first record of a Yorkshire connection is in Sheffield in 1911 when my grandfather married a local lass. He was in the Navy at the time, so why he was visiting Sheffield is a mystery, although he could have been visiting an uncle (mother's brother) who moved to Sheffield at an unknown date but had lived in Hull (child birth c 1898) and York (1901 census). Another of my grandfather's brothers lived in Sheffield from an indeterminate date, although he married in Grimsby Lincs c 1912, where my GGrandmother and her daughter are buried (1940 ish). So many mysteries!
Chris
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Hi everyone
There is an 1806 baptism in Wrestlingworth for an Ann Carver parents Thomas and Elizabeth (the only non descendant of my John and Elizabeth on the Wrestlingworth registers)
The only Thomas Carver to Elizabeth marriages I
have unearthed are in Bedford one to Elizabeth Grummit in 1780 and the
other to Elizabeth Patston in 1786
CARVER Thomas of Wellingborough, baker Eliz GRUMMIT otp 21 April 1780 at Bedford St. Peter, Beds witnesses Elizabeth Patston Mary Bayes
CARVER Thomas of Parish of Bedford St Peter Widower to Elizabeth PATSTON otp 7 Nov 1786 at Bedford St Paul
Witnesses Catherine Patston Abraham Patston Sophia Crump
Baptisms for children can be found on the IGI at familysearch.org If you enter just parents Thomas Carver and Elizabeth and Bedfordshire they are the only children who pop up.
Burials
One of below must be first wife, one probably a child
Elizabeth CARVER 23 Dec 1784 Bedford St Peter
Elizabeth CARVER 20 May 1785 Bedford St Peter
Thomas CARVER 1 May 1809 Age 50 Bedford St Peter
Elizabeth CARVER 31 Aug 1809 Age 49 Bedford St Peter
Burials for some of the children all at Bedford St Peter
Catherine CARVER 27 Oct 1795 inf
Abraham CARVER 8 Sep 1818 Age 31
Elizabeth CARVER 13 Oct 1832 Age 45
I did order Ann's second marriage certificate but she did not give her father's name so they didn't send - at some point I will get copies of original entries for her baptism and both marriages in case there is anything enlightening.
I have the wills for both Thomas, Elizabeth and daughter Elizabeth. They do not mention Ann. But do confirm Thomas who married Elizabeth Grummit and Thomas who married Elizabeth Patston as one and the same person. Daughter Elizabeth's adds weight to Thomas of Wellingborough being son of John the minister as she mentions William Crole Carver of Melbourn as beneficiary should her sister Rebecca Ann Stonebride(Stockbridge) of Meldreth and her children die before her.
I do wonder if Ann could have been illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth born, baptised and brought up in Wrestlingworth where there were family connections - no proof as yet ::) :D
Regards Jan
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Chris
Perhaps I could help you unravel any Hull Carvers? My gg grandfather and two of his brothers moved there in the 1840s and I have spent a lot of time trying to sort out their progeny from that of a Nottinghamshire Carver who moved there at the same time and seems to have been trying his hardest to cause confusion by giving his children similar names at similar times.
Nick
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seems to have been trying his hardest to cause confusion by giving his children similar names at similar times.
He's not alone in that - since trying to link in the Southill Carvers with my Wrestlingworth lot my head has been threatening to explode with all the John, Thomas and Samuels ??? :D
Jan ;)
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Hi everyone,
I'm Barbara, who has been in contact with Jan. Chris Carver and I are descended from the same line of Carvers and are hopefully connected to Beverley and Jan.
I have another will, which mentions William Crole Carver. The will of Samuel Carver, late of St. Paul's Churchyard in the City of London, Printseller, now of Myddelton House, Enfield, Mdx. signed 22 Oct 1838 was proved 23 October 1841 London. Samuel was a partner with Henry Carrington Bowles in the firm of Bowles and Carver, engravers and printsellers.
Bequests were left to:
Nephew John Carver, son of late brother John Carver.
Sarah, widow of late nephew Samuel Carver
Mary and Sarah Carver, daughters of late brother Thomas Carver
Mary and Sarah also received another bequest for the benefit and care of their brother James Carver so long as he resided in their care.
William C. Carver, son of cousin, late Reverend William Carver of Melbourn
Samuel Ebenezer Carver son of late nephew Samuel Carver.
Samuel and Sarah are my 4 x Gt. Grandparents. No will has been found for Samuel but in her will Sarah left property to each of her four children Samuel Ebenezer, William Thomas, Mary and Elizabeth Margaret. I am descended from both William Thomas and Mary as William's daughter married Mary's son!
Other bequests were made to members of the Bowles family including one to Eliza Ann Carver Reeves, granddaughter of Henry Carrington Bowles and Henry Carver Treacher, grandson of Henry C. Bowles.
Barbara
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Hi Barbara
Welcome to Rootschat, glad you decided to join us here :D
I wonder why William Crole Carver is singled out in both cases?
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Does the fact that William Crole Carver is mentioned in both wills point to his father The Revd. William Carver being the brother of Elizabeth's father Thomas, given the Wellingborough link? If so, that would make William Crole and Elizabeth cousins and maybe explain his inclusion in her will.
Barbara
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The first Wellingborough connection for the Rev Carvers would have been when Rev John ( Wm Crole's grandfather )took up the invitation to preach there 30/10/1770.
But remember Rev Wm ( father of Wm crole) seems to have bought up his family in Melbourn Camb.
As I said before thank goodness for Rev Wm he seems to be the connecting point for our research
beverley - sunny aussie
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Hi Nick (and everyone else),
Thanks for the offer, but it was Carver in-laws (ie Philbedge family) who moved to Hull and thence to Sheffield.
Sorry for the delay in replying, but life has been extremely busy recently as I approach house moving in a week's time. I can see little leisure time until Jun at the earliest to get back into my research. However, a little thought.
Many in genealogical circles quote how they went back to their roots at some time during their life. Well I lived at Henlow (not too far from Southill & Wrestlingworth) on 3 different occasions before I realised there was a family link with the area!
Regards
Chris
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Hi everyone
There is an 1806 baptism in Wrestlingworth for an Ann Carver parents Thomas and Elizabeth (the only non descendant of my John and Elizabeth on the Wrestlingworth registers)
Jan: Slightly left-field but is there any chance that this Thomas Carver is the brother of John Carver, one of the 'Hitchin Carvers', son of Samuel and Mary. If the Hitchin John was 'our John' it could explain this other Thomas as his brother, especially if they were both in the wheelwrighting business. The dates seem plausible to me.
I have a request. I have a large family unit which I can not place on my main tree because of lack of evidence and despite much head-scratching- does anybody know who this James Carver is the son of please?
James Carver, approx 1810-1881, mainly of Cockayne Hatley but was in Wrestlingworth in 1841 who married Sophia (Bird?) and had the following children: Amos, Jabez, David, Jason, Jonah?, Louisa, Maria and Martha.
Cheers all,
Neil.
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Hi Neil
Yes I would think it quite possible Ann could be daughter of the Hitchin Thomas - I haven't found anything else about him or the others after his baptism. There isn't a Wrestlingworth burial for him but there is a possible burial for an Elizabeth in 1809. He may have remarried and moved away. I have the details of both of Ann's marriages but they are not very helpful. The first in 1824 to Ellis Mathews was when she was only 19 but it just says by consent of parents ( does imply at least one is alive though); at her second marriage to Thomas Morley in Nov 1837 she unhelpfully does not give father's details.
As for James who married Sophia I have no idea who he belongs to as yet - he gives his birthplace as Wrestlingworth but I haven't found a baptism for him.
Jan ;)
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http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxsl.asp?com=1&i=9&nbKey=2&stylesheet=xsl\A2A_com.xsl&keyword=carver&properties=0601
Certs. signed by Officers in the 1st Batt. Commanded by Lt. Col Sam. Whitbread, Esq. and Officers in the 2nd Regt. Commanded by Lt. Col. the Rt. Hon. Lord St. John. These are dated 1811-12 but had previously been guarded and as a result are in no particular order. Some persons have several certificates.
Militia Man Carver Thos. Wife's name Eliz.
A pity no parish is mentioned, but if it's the parents of Ann chr 1806 the Elizabeth who was buried 1809 must be a different one.
There are no Carvers in Bedfordshire Muster Lists
David
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Hi David
I can't find the hit you posted (the link doesn't work as apparently the page is only temporary) but have this
BEDFORD (St. Paul) PARISH RECORDS
Militia
Certificates of men serving in the Militia and orders for payment of maintenance to their families. 1811-1812 - Militia Man Carver Thos. Wife's name Eliz.
So this Thomas is possibly Thomas the bakers son - I can't find any children in Bedford St Paul for this couple. If they are Ann's parents they must have moved back to Wrestlingworth as Ann is there in 1824
Thank you for your continued interest in this confusing family :D
Jan ;)
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Keep up the great searching , Carver folk
Thrilled to note 2224 readers so far , I am always fingers crossed " all will be revealed ", eventually xx
thanks
Aussie Carver, (still in shorts)
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For Aussie Carver,
There were two Carvers on the First fleet. I picked up these potted biographies on them from a reference book in the Hertfordshire Records Office (Hertford) a while back.
JOHN CARVER (1757-1826)
Private Marine 24th Plymouth Company became settler. Had 80 acre grant at 'Field of Mars', 3rd Jan. 1792. Married Isabella Smith (22 in 1789) on 9th Jan 1792 at Parramatta. Illiterate. Was not among colonial landholders mustered in 1800. Was working for Isaac Nichols in 1806 at "Carver's Farm" which transferred to John Larkham for £20 in 1809. By 1814 was 'labourer' on farms. By 1825 was inmate in Sydney Benevolent asylum. Buried Sydney 15th December 1826 aged 69. No record of children.
JOSEPH CARVER (?-1796)
From Sittingbourne, Kent. A labourer who stole four pounds of 'thrown silk', one pound of 'raw silk' from the Newark ship on the River Medway. 7 years transportation - sentenced at Maidstone, Kent 18th March 1785. By January 1787 was in charge of a gang of convict workers. Settled 30 acres at North Boundary Farms. Married Mary Bigsby 16th June 1793 at Parramatta. Buried at St. Phillips, Sydney 5th June 1796.
Go Eels then?
Neil.
PS: I also have a little on the William Carver school in Melbourn, Cambridgeshire which I'll dig out.
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Hi
Here is a link to a separate thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,229051.new.html#new
Which may be of interest
Jan ;)
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thanks Neil,
Yes have come accross those other aussie Carvers.
Thank goodness they were infertile.
They have caused some confussion re land grants but now sorted.
Would appreciate the Melbourne Cambridge Carver info
Beverley
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Hi folks,
Have had some great luck.
A desc of Wm Crole Carver , therefore Rev William and his father Rev John etc. has found me.
He has a family tree compiled by an in- law of Wm Crole's son Edmund. It seems to be compiled from family knowledge rather than research .
A gold mind for that line .
AND interestingly it names the " home town" of some of the early Carvers.
eg Ch of Rev John
1. John - Capt Army
2. Thomas - Bedford
** 3 Henry - *Parramatta - this must be my Benjamin
no Henry in Aust
4. William - Melbourn
Will try to work out how to get the chart to anyone interested if John agrees
very happy Aussie carver
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Hi Bev
How exciting :D :D
Although I still have no idea if I connect with your lot I would be interested to see the info - who knows it might shed some light
Cheers Jan ;)
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hi folks,
per newly located Carver tree. per John of London
John Carver b.1730 d 1791 ( so definately mine xxx)
1/ John Capt Army - remember the one that got 1 shilling.
2/ Thomas Bedford Carver
his Ch
1/ John Carver
2/ Abraham carver
3/ Thomas Carver
4/ Elizabth Carver
5/ Rebecca
3/ Henry Parramatta Carver (?? my Benjamin)
* 1/Peace Appleby Carver
need to relook at the barstardary files for this one ??
NB. The compiler of this chart was a peer of William Crole Carver so would have had family legeon info., these peole had living memory and perhaps contact all the way back to Rev William and probably even Rev John
What do you think ??
smiling Aussie Carver
AND how would they have know about Parramatta if Benjamin had not written "home"
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Very exciting for you bev :D
Jan ;)
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Hi everyone,
Re Bev's Carvers, I found a reference to one Abraham Carver - Bedford Borough Quarter Sessions dated 15 July 1816:
"Michaelmas Sessions. Recognizances: Abraham Carver, basket maker, to keep the peace especially towards - Mingay, saddler, and toward the driver and guard of his majesty's mail coaches passing through the town"
Wonder what he actually did!
There was also another reference on a2a website - Nationwide Building Society Bedford Deeds re 47 and 49 High St. Bedford stating that the buildings had formerly been in the occupation of Abraham Carver.
Barbara
Barbara
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Hi Barbara
Intriguing :D
Abraham is son of Thomas the baker, son of John the preacher - Thomas went bankrupt and had very little to leave his family despite a substantial sum being left to him by his father.
Jan ;)
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I have a line like that. Landed gentry with monuments in Nafferton Church in E Yorks allowing me to trace them back to a birth in 1521, yet within a generation, my branch of the family had lost everything. Just about sums up my luck and reassuring to see that others are in a similar position.
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Hi Nick
Still haven't worked out whether I'm in anyway linked to the Southill Carvers but ending up with nothing fits my lot - the wheelwright business was gone by 1901, James was a general labourer on the census and died in Luton workhouse in 1910, his son Robert my g grandad drank himself to death and expired of softening of the brain in 1915 in Three Counties Asylum. My poor gran spent her childhood never knowing if the family would still be at the home she left in the morning when she returned from school - frequently they packed and ran to avoid paying the rent. Hard life.:'(
Jan
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My lot did it slightly differently and much worse for family history purposes. They just didn't talk about things! My great grandfather was a sailmaker and (it transpires) a legendary boozer. After his death, the rest of the family didn't talk about him so I still haven't found a record of his death. I know where he was buried (in an unmarked grave) because my dad's cousin saw it as a little boy. But when he told his dad where he had been. he got into trouble. Similarly, until the day he died, my dad didn't know that he had an uncle who died in WWI and I am sure he didn't know about 3 uncles and 2 aunts who died in infancy. What a bunch to have to trace.
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All the above has come out since I started delving into family history - my mum knew about my gran's childhood and about Robert's drinking but never said a word. I think she probably doesn't know where her grandad died (and her grandmother who also liked a tipple) - not sure how to broach the subject with her or even if I should, so I suppose the not talking about things continues.
Families ::)
Jan ;)
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I know my grandfather George Thomas whose name is really Thomas George, or so the certificate says, pretty well lied about everything he ever said about himself. He said he was born in Yorkshire but he was born in Norfolk.
He wrote about himself in a biographical book. He "became an accomplished accountant" through the London Chamber of Commerce, "did creditable work at the Leeds Infirmary. ' He passed the examination when he was 20. Why then 2 years later when he married was he a night porter? He told of when he came to Canada and all the wonderful things he accomplished. He said when grandmother came to Canada with the children he omitted the last child. Uncle Leslie said he rememberd coming here because he threw his shoes out of the window of the train in Montreal.
I can only verify the fact that he worked at a hospital here in Victoria, with a pay record. He said he was "the secretary". If he was so wonderful why did he only get paid the same amount as a nurse. Not to mention the fact, that he quit his job and left the country with a nurse from the same hospital when he was still married to grandmother (unable to locate any documentation that there was a divorce). Meanwhile grandmother was left with 6 children and no income. I am sure she took in boarders and did laundry to survive.
I can certainly understand why no one wanted to talk about him.
Actually very little is known about him. I think I have the one and only picture of him. He looks miserable and arrogant.
Marg
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Can I propose a very rough and ready test to see if there are any links between the various strands of the family by posting photos of our Carvers? Here is my great grandfather William (1856 - ?) the boozer referred to earlier. This must have been taken around the turn of the 20th century. Also included is Arthur Carver, my great uncle, to whom my father bore a strong resemblence in his youth. There is an olive skin that appears regularly - I have it as did my father and one of my sons does likewise. This will not prove that we are related, but if similarities exist, perhaps we will feel like we are all headed for the same point (even if the paths diverged such a long time ago we will never find out for certain).
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Hi Nick
Good idea. I will have a go scanning and posting Robert Carver tomorrow
Jan ;)
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hi folks,
the "grog" gene came to Australia with my Benjamin, which resulted in the squandering of exceptionally good opportunities. If he wan't drinking he was gambling.
and he generously passed the gene all the way down to current generations.
Beverley
I see family resemblences with photos posted per Nick and his contact. I'll kick my scanner again and try to post my photos.
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I should point out that the text alongside Arthur's photograph is incorrect. He was killed in April of that year. In fact, he died on the first day that his battalion went into action.
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Hi everyone
Robert Carver Wheelwright/Carpenter born Wrestlingworth 1855, married Hannah Saunders Luton Baptist Chapel 1893, died Three Counties Asylum 1915.
Am I imagining a family likeness?
Look forward to seeing your picture Bev, and Marg any chance of seeing your miserable George Thomas please?
Jan ;)
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I would if I could figure out how to insert a photo. In the meantime I will send the image to Jan and if she wouldn't mind posting for me, I would appreciate it.
Marg
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Maggie, underneath the box in which I am inserting text right now is a hyperlink that says 'Attach a photograph or image (and other options)'. I have not tried the other options, but it is certainly very straightforward to attach a piccie. Try it, you may amaze yourself
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Hi Marg
I've resaved your image as a jpeg - rootschat won't accept bitmap, that is probably why you couldn't post. Anyway fingers crossed here is George Thomas Carver and sons
Jan
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Photo of William James Carver bn 5 June 1848 St. Pancras d. 1921 Ickleton, Cambs, son of William Thomas and Abigail Carver nee Smith. William James Carver, headmaster of Ickleton School, Cambs. There are more photographs on the website www.ickletonvillage.co.uk but unfortunately at the moment the link to the photo archive does not work.
William Thomas Carver was the son of Samuel and Sarah Carver nee Colwell. Samuel, a draughtsman, was the son of Thomas Carver (wife as yet unknown).
Thomas was the brother of Samuel Carver, map engraver of Bowles and Carver, cousin of The Rev. William Carver of Melbourne, Cambs.
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Hi Barbara
The link is working fine now.
We really need some clever person to isolate all these Carver faces and post in a row for comparison.
Jan ;)
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This is a family of Carvers - the Newcastle branch of the Norfolk Carvers. Perhaps one of them might bear a resemblence to one of yours?
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Hi All
We really need some clever person to isolate all these Carver faces and post in a row for comparison.
Jan
Not a clever person but is this of help.
Sandy
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Thank you Sandy :D :D (I'm sure you are clever)
George Thomas and the headmaster certainly look very alike to me. What does anyone else think?
Jan ;)
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hello carver "cousins"
I'm back on air hoping all you talented busy bees have filled in all the branches and twigs.
Did the family tree from John Dawe, done by F.L.Fisher in the very early 1900s, for the g g granddaughter of William Crole Carver, help confirm any connections ?
I thought it was a gold mine even if it did have my Benjamin of Parramatta ( Aust) as a Henry.
Trust everyone is well as well as inspired.
We horsey people here are struggling with the horse flu.
Aussie Carver
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Did the family tree from John Dawe, done by F.L.Fisher in the very early 1900s, for the g g granddaughter of William Crole Carver, help confirm any connections ?
I thought it was a gold mine even if it did have my Benjamin of Parramatta ( Aust) as a Henry.
Hi
Sorry did I miss a link you posted or something? I'm afraid I've never heard of the above tree - sounds as if it would worth looking at.
Jan ;)
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Hi everyone,
A busy year - 2 house moves and several periods away overseas, but just spent the last day going over all the ground and coming up with lots of theories and even more questions.
Someone mentioned the marriage of a Samuel Carver to Margaret in 1754 at St Ippolyts - can somebody please give me the full details.
I have asked the Joiners Company if they have any details re Samuel Carver of Bowles and carver fame, the lynchpin of our branch. It might just give details of his birth etc.
Regards
Chris
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Hi Chris
Nice to hear from you again. Here is a link to my thread on the Herts board which gives all details gleaned about Samuel Carver Wheelwright born Southill
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,229232.0.html
Hope you are successful in finding details about your Samuel
Jan ;)
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Thanks Jan,
I am becoming more convinced that this Samuel is our John & Thomas' father. Now I need to find if he had a son Samuel by his first marriage. I will post a request on your other thread - you never know.
Chris
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Hi folks,
Time to drink from the well again. I’m going to pop up what I think is the ‘best fit’ for the Southill Carvers in relation to the Wrestlingworth Carvers given the evidence we now have in this thread. The intention is for you good people to shoot this down in flames if you think there is evidence about which does not substantiate this. This summary is kind of an amalgam of ideas that have been floating around – anyway here goes...
Deacon Thomas Carver is the father of four sons:
• ‘Pastor’ John – who ended up in Wellingborough
• Thomas ‘Jnr ‘– who married Susan Turner and Mary Vintiner
• Samuel Carver – the Hitchin St. Mary apprentice wheelwright
• John Carver of Everton who married Mary Willason
I suggest that all these are siblings because their marriages all occurred within a relative short number of years. The most obvious father is Deacon Thomas.
John Carver of Everton married in 1745
Thomas Jnr married in 1746 and again in 1765
Hitchin Samuel married in 1754 and again in 1759
Pastor John married in 1754
In terms of first marriages the four married within 9 years of each other.
PASTOR JOHN
This John Carver married the confusingly named Ann Dunton at Southill in 1754. Deacon Thomas died in March 1762, John succeeded him in November 1762. John moved on to Cambridgeshire and one of his sons William eventually became founder of the Melbourn Independent School with which his son William Crole Carver was so heavily involved in as well. John eventually ended up in Wellingborough and died there. (Going off at a slight tangent here – we have a William Carver of Bassingbourn who married Elizabeth Bird in Wrestlingworth in 1805 who I’ve never placed. This Bassingbourn William must have been connected to the Cambridgeshire Carvers and would have been born probably around 1780. Does he fit in here?)
HITCHIN SAMUEL
Samuel was apprenticed out to Hitchin from Southill as a wheelwright to Edward Watts in 1744. We have two marriages of a Samuel Carver in Hitchin, one in 1754 (St. Ippolyts) and one in 1759 (St. Mary). The most plausible explanation to me is that we have one Samuel Carver here and that his first wife died between 1754 and 1759 and Samuel simply remarried. Samuel’s four children were baptised in 1768 in Hitchin. We know therefore that Samuel was probably in Hitchin from 1744 to 1768.
JOHN CARVER OF EVERTON
This John Carver married Mary Willason in Dunton in 1745, in the marriage register it states John was from the Everton parish. He is the father of John Carver who married Elizabeth Merrington. We know this branch of the family became wheelwrights, we also know that Samuel was farmed out as an apprentice wheelwright to Hitchin. Why not John too? Jan discovered John Wilson the Wrestlingworth wheelwright who died in 1779. I think it is a great call that John of Everton was similarly farmed out. John Carver of Everton died before Wilson in 1772 in Dunton so why not John Carver Jnr. of Wrestlingworth was a wheelwright?
THOMAS CARVER JNR
I refer to this Thomas Carver as Jnr as to distinguish him from Deacon Thomas although it is my submission that he is the son of Deacon Thomas. Thomas Jnr married Susan Turner in 1746 at Lower Gravenhurst , Bedfordshire. Susan died in 1760 in Southill. A child of a Thomas in Southill died in 1750 and this child was probably the child of Thomas Jnr. and Susan. Thomas Jnr. married again on Boxing Day, 1765 in Southill to Mary Vintiner. He was a widow and she a widower. A Thomas Carver (a labourer) was buried in Southill in 1791 and I believe him to be Thomas Jnr. and I also believe the Mary Carver buried in Southill in 1811 was Mary Carver nee Vintiner.
DEACON THOMAS CARVER
He became a non-conformist preacher in Southill. An entry in the Church records references Thomas Carver in 1719. By 1737 Thomas is a trustee of the Church. Thomas died in 1762 and a list of Church trustees in 1765 does not reference Thomas Carver. The burial record for Thomas Carver in Southill in 1762 has lodged a ‘D’ against his name probably to designate a dissenter. We have no record of a marriage for this Thomas but we do have a burial record for a daughter of Thomas in 1728 in Southill (Rebecca). I believe Rebecca to have probably been a daughter of Deacon Thomas.
A couple of further pontifications for you. Could Deacon Thomas be the grandson of William Carver who was married in Southill to Margaret Usher in either 1655 or 1656? Or possibly was the Thomas Carver of 1690 a predecessor of Deacon Thomas and a son of William?
I shall now retreat a safe distance and hide behind my sofa...
Cheers,
Neil.
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I was in Belgium last year and I photographed the memorial inscription to A.Carver on the Menin Gate in Ieper (Ypres).
Neil.
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Neil
That is undoubtedly Arthur Carver, my great uncle. Thanks very much for the photo
Nick
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Hi Neil
Nice to hear from you again. Have copied
and pasted your musings - difficult to read
here due to widescreen. Will be back later with
my gun if necessary :D
Jan ;)
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Re the Everton John Carver - pure speculation!
A2A has the following under BLARS
Administration Letters
F 110� - date: 1760
William Carver of Dunton
Who's he? Could he be connected with John of Everton -
father perhaps? (incidentally there are no Carver entries in
Everton pre 1812). The first Carver burial in Dunton was in
1748, and a burial of William on 8 Aug 1759. It would be
interesting to get hold of the Blars Administration Letter to
see if a son John is named. Was John actually from Dunton
and was merely working in Everton?
Up to 1677 there were numerous Carver burials in Potton. It
might be worth investigating what became of this branch of the family.
The name Peter Carver appears more than once
in Potton. John and Mary in Dunton also named a son
Peter....
What about John Carver who married Mary Clerk in Stotfold
(5 miles from Dunton) on 1 Feb 1718/19? They were
described as travellers - could they have been the parents of
John?
David
It might have been interesting putting all those photos side
by side, but it ain't half made a mess of the layout.
Virtually illegible - unless you keep hitting "enter" at the end
of a normal line length as I've done with this message
the line just goes on and on to the end of the 5 photos.
Too difficult to read! Sorry
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Hi
Fingers crossed this will start a new page
I'm favouring the John 'of Everton' who married
Mary to be son of William of Dunton buried 1759.
I have the will that goes with the admin letters
you mention David - William does have a son John
(and Peter) and there are also burials in Dunton
for what appears to be John and his wife Mary
Sep 4 1768 Mary w of Jn CALVER
Jul 14 1772 Jn CARVER/CALVER labr
I have tracked the Potton lot and they appear
to move to Dunton via Sutton - or at least Peter
(who is I am pretty sure father of William of Dunton) does.
Potton baptism
1644 Jan 29 Peter s of Wm CARVER
Sutton marriage
Peter CARVILL to Joan RUSSELL 6 Oct 1681
Sutton Baptism
9/10/1682 Wm s of Peter/Joan Carver
Dunton burial
1727 Jan 11 Peter CALVER (Shepherd)
Seem to be missing a burial for Joan wife of Peter.
But then you come up with this David
"What about John Carver who married Mary Clerk in Stotfold
(5 miles from Dunton) on 1 Feb 1718/19? They were
described as travellers - could they have been the parents of
John?"
Goodness knows where they fit in!
Jan ;)
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William Carver 'of Bassingbourn' who married
Elizabeth Bird I am pretty sure is the William baptised
11 DEC 1783 Cockayne Hatley son of John and Elizabeth
(Merrington) brother of George and Young.
There is a likely burial for Elizabeth in Wrestlingworth
31/7/1809 Eliz Carver
Certainly he is the one who married Hannah Pateman
in Arrington 28 Mar 1820 - he was 'of Wimpole' at that time.
Unfortunately it doesn't give condition at marriage. He may
have squeezed in another marriage between Elizabeth and
Hannah to a mystery Sarah in Cambs - details not to hand at moment.
Jan ;)
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Hi Neil,
Not so far fetched as it resembles almost exactly the tree I have sketched out. One addition is that I have a marriage for Deacon Thomas to Mary Bromidge at Turvey on 19 Apr 1720 and they settled in Southill in 1720.
All I have to do is find a son called Samuel from Hitchin wheelwright Samuel's first marriage tp prove the connections!
Regards
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Although there were four children (Thomas John, Elizabeth and Mary) baptised in one go by Samuel and Mary Prior in 1768 - do we actually know if these were children from Samuel's first marriage or his second marriage, or a mixture of both? I am making the assumption that we have just the one Samuel here.
Also, just a thought, the Hitchin Samuel was SAMUEL THOMAS CARVER as referred to in the apprentice record. Could it be that the son of Hitchin Samuel was also given the names of SAMUEL THOMAS but known just as THOMAS? It's interesting that we have no son named after his father here...Jan - the list of the four children - is this in an order at all, i.e. oldest first?
Cheers, Neil.
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Hi Neil
Here is a link to the Herts board which gives some extra on the Hitchen Carvers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,229232.0.html
Also there are two replies from me and one from bedfordshire boy at end of pg 10 on this thread which you may have missed.
Jan ;)
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HI Neil,
I am descended from a Thomas Carver born c 1760. His known brothers were Samuel Carver (b c 1756) and John (date unknown). All three lived in and died in London.
Samuel 1756 was a partner in the Bowles and Carver printing firm of London (very famous). His will links these brothers together as well as William Crole Carver, the son of his cousin William Carver of Melbourne.
So Samuel could have been a product of Hitchin Samuel's 1st marriage and John and Thomas of his second ( this fits with 2 of the 4 baptisms).
I need to find 1756 Samuel's baptism and the marriages of Thomas and John to confirm my theory that this is the line. Otherwise, we know we are descended from the Southill Carvers, but how?
I suppose it might be worth asking if there are any other male Carvers descended from the Southill and Wrestlingworth lines willing to take a DNA test to confirm any links?
Regards
Chris
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I believe I did say a while back that I was going to post some notes I had made about Melbourn and the Independent School when I visited the Camb. Recod Office and I think I never got round to it. So apologies for that, here is what I have.
The book was a history of Melbourn by the Melbourn History Group it’s ISBN number is 0-9549120-1-2. There is a copy of the book in the Cambridgeshire County Records office in Cambridge.
“In 1791 William Carver, the Pastor of Independent Chapel, est. a boarding school for non-Conformist students. This school had an excellent reputation. In fact their reputation was so good that many C of E parents sent their children to it. Carver’s school was situated on the High Street at Greenbanks with land stretching as far as the Newmarket Road. 90 boys paid extra for a single bed.”
“Carver’s son William, a successful classics tutor, assisted him (William Carver snr)”.
The Rev. William Carver was the pastor of the Congregational Chapel for 34 years.
The Old Independent Chapel built in 1715 was in Chapel Lane.
Samuel Morley, a former pupil of the school in 1816, in a biographical recollection described the school as the “best of its kind in the country”.
I also made other notes at the time of my visit.
William Crole Carver, father of Mary Alice, married into the Fordhams who were a family of bankers (John Fordham & Sons, High Street, Melbourn).
In Pigots Directory of 1840 there is a reference to a Day & Boarding School in Melbourn
In 1840 Melbourn was in the hundred of Bassingbourn and had population of 1,471 in 1831.
In 1871 John Fordham was a magistrate.
I found no Carver in Melbourn on the 1871 census.
In the 1869 Post Office Directory for Cambridgeshire – under “Private Residents”:
CARVER EUSTACE JOHN esq. M.R.C.S.
CARVER WILLIAM CROLE esq.
FORDHAM JOHN EDWARD J.P.
under “Commercial”
CARVER EUSTACE JOHN M.R.C.S., L.S.A., surgeon, medical officer for the Melbourn district
of the Royston union for Wimpole, Caxton and Arrington.
Arrington situated on Ermine Street was formerly known as Ermington/Erminton had a population of 317 in 1841.
In the 1851 History, Gazetter & Directory of Cambs. for Melbourn
“Principal proprieters” William C. Carver esq.
“Farmer” William Crole Carver.
In the 1853 directory William Crole Carver is described as “gentry”.
In 1847 he was in as “Farmer + Miller”.
In 1850 he is misspelt as ‘Calver’ and “Farmer”.
1858 had him as a “Miller”
In the 1875 Post Office Directory he is a “Private Resident” and in the 1883 Kellys Directory there is no entry.
Neil.
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A dangerous thing to do but thinking out loud...
The James/Sophia bloc - James was born around 1806 and lived mostly in Cockayne Hatley. William of Bassingbourn and Elizabeth Bird were married in 1804 in Wrestlingworth, William having been baptised in Cockayne Hatley. Therefore does this suggest James is the son of William of Bassingbourn? He is less likely to be the product of Thos. & Elizabeth as their child Ann was baptised in 1806. Elizabeth Bird died in 1809 and William duly remarried. If William was closer to the Baptist Church group and still at a time early enough to still be under the influence of the Baptist Church this could suggest an explanation of the non-existant baptism record for James (I can't see a baptism record for any James Carver in Bedfordshire for this period). It would also add weight as to why subsequent children of William with Hannah Pateman were baptised in the established Church as this would have been later and with a different wife.
Neil.
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Hi Neil
Somewhere around there is a James and Sophia thread where such a possibility is put forward - I think by David (Bedfordshire Boy). Also wondered if he might be a pre-marriage son of our John and second wife Martha Michel as their son Jesse born 13 FEB 1812 wasn't baptised till 11 OCT 1834
Jan ;)
Found it
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,229051.0.html
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Hi Chris,
Let me know if I can help at all on the DNA side of things.
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi All,
Father of Deacon Thomas:
In an earlier reference the birth date of Deacon Thomas was said to be circa 1690. Do we have anything more on this? I can’t see anything.
On my list of Bedfordshire Carvers, on the basis of this date I can only see the following as candidates to be the father of Deacon Thomas.
1. The Peter Carver in Sutton, husband of Joan, who was the father of a William, Eliz. & Alice (born 1682-1689). aka The Carvills who married in 1681. Jan – I believe you think this William may be the father of Everton John?
2. The Peter Carver who was baptised in Potton in 1644. He may well be one and the same person as the above.
3. The William Carver who was baptised in Old Warden in 1664 whose father was also called William.
All the other Bedfordshire Carvers I have I can eliminate as candidates for one reason or another.
Is this a reasonable statement on the basis that Deacon Thomas was born circa 1690?
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi All,
I've just found this board, very interesting. I think my greatgrandfather was a David Carver born in 1843 in Wrestlingworth and would be grateful for any info anyone has about him.
Ley
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Hi Ley
Welcome to Rootschat :D
First off this site
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/
Allows you to search the IGI by parish - Wrestlingworth is very well extracted.
However there are 2 possibles for your David- one baptised 1842 son of Thomas Carver and Lydia nee Bird, the other baptised 1843 son of Jesse Carver and Charlotte. You will need to have his birth or marriage certificate so you know his father and get the right one. Although Thomas and Lydia's son moved to Yorkshire whereas Jesse and Charlotte's stayed in Bedfordshire so this may help identify which is yours. What do you already know?
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Thanks for the info. I think my David is the son of Jesse and Charlotte as I've got what I think is his marriage certificate but more work required!
Ley
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Hi Ley
Jesse was son of John Carver and Martha Michel. This I am 99% sure is second marriage of my gggg grandfather John. If you pin your David down I have a lot on the Carvers - much of which seems to be posted on this thread, but there are other Carver threads. Just shout if we can be of help.
Regards
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan,
Thanks a lot. Will look into it in more detail after Easter.
Ley
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Hi Ley,
If this helps this is what I found about David Carver:
On c:1851-1861 in Wrestlingworth as Agricultural Labourer.
Baptised Wrestlingworth: Aug 1843 (day obscured)
On 1881 census in Leighton Buzzard. His wife Annie (widow?) is listed on an L.B. Trades Directory (Kelly's) as an Aerated (sic) Mineral Water Manufacturer on Hockliffe Street.
David and Annie had three children all born in Leighton Buzzard:
Florence A born circa 1875
Nellie M born circa 1876 (a Nellie Carver is on 1901 census in Nottingham aged 23 as a mantle saleswoman)
David C born circa 1878 (a Charles Carver born Leighton Buzzard, aged 21 is on 1901 census in Tottenham, London as a butcher).
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi All,
I have come across a reference to a Southill Enclosure Act of 1797 and I don't recall this being referenced anywhere else on these boards. If this involved the redistribution of land in the village and was an Act of Parliament this might be a source of valuable information and be available?
Any one any thoughts?
Cheers,
Neil.
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Hi Neil,
Sorry for delay in replying - away for Easter. I think the Nellie you mentioned was my grandmother. She married Herbert Mell in 1903. If I'm right David married Annie Scott in London in 1875, he died 1882. Annie remarried in 1901.
Ley
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My name is Margaret Dowd. My father was John Eric Carver. John's father was George Thomas Carver who married Ruth Elizabeth Schofield. George Thomas Carver's parents were Samuel Carver and Emma Cox. Thomas Carver's parents were Thomas Carver and Lydia Bird.
George Thomas Carver and his wife Ruth Elizabeth Schofield and their family moved to Canada, George came in 1910 and Ruth and her children moved to Canada about 1913.
George's brother Jonah Cox Carver also came to Canada.
Margaret Dowd
Hi all!
I'm related to Margaret, as my Great Grandfather was Jonah Cox Carver. :)
Actually Margaret was in touch with my family years ago and she's been good enough to share what she's discovered about 'our side' of the family tree back to John & Elizabeth Merrington, but hasn't discovered anything further... :'(
My side of the family was very surprised to hear about Margaret's information, as it had been passed down that Jonah was an orphan! :o
Jonah and his wife Selina Coates moved with their 3 sons to Canada about 1915. If anyone would like more info on this side, please send me a note, I'd be happy to share ;)
I've been trying to trace back further to the parents or further ancestors of John Carver with nothing definite. I've found the only search site that goes back that far is the FamilySearch website - is there any others? I've also come across(what was previously mentioned) a John and Mary Willamson (Williamson?) who had a son John.... wonder at the odds of this being the parents...
I find reading the previous posts all very interesting, not only the names but how families tended to move from one county to another (or one country to another....) Thanks to all for attaching very helpful and interesting links...
BCSandra :)
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Hi Sandra
Glad to see that you have discovered this site. Very helpful people here. Contact me if you can. I am still at the same address or in the phone book.
Marg
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Hi Sandra
Welcome to Rootschat :D Glad you decided to post.
I am pretty convinced that John Carver and Mary Williamson/Willason are the parents of our John but as you say no definite proof - although if this John isn't ours can't see what would have happened to him. Still working on it!
This site is useful as it allows you to search the IGI by parish and you only get extracted records
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/
If you want an entry checked for further info post on the look-up board here and someone will do that for you.
Jan ;)
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Hello Everyone,
What a great site! I don't know if I'm supposed to post this here so apologies if I have interupted someone!
I am really hoping one of you knowledgeable lot can shed some light on my side of the Carver Family. I am Thomas Carver, my father is Neil Carver and his father was Reginald Carver. Reg was born in West Rudham in Norfolk, England. His father was Robert John Carver (Great Granddad Bob).
I believe Bob’s father was James Carver, born about 1861 in Mulbarton, Norfolk, England, and married to Clara Hook. They had several children…Lilian Emily, James, Robert John (Bob), Frederick, Florence, Frank, Arthur and Eleanor.
I think James and Clara emigrated to the US (New York State) along with Arthur, Frank and Florence sometime between 1901 and 1917. In England they left behind Lilian Emily, Robert, Frederick, Eleanor and James.
I have come to a halt when I get back to 1881 and am really trying further things, I suppose I will get there eventually? It’s wonderful to see that the Carvers are making an effort! Anyone with any info?
Best wishes to you all.
Tom Carver
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Hi All
Tom not sure of area where you live so you may know this information.
James and Clara went to New York in 1912.
Arthur, Eleanor, Florence went also.
Sandy
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Frank went in 1911.
Sandy
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On the 1920 census Clara is noted as a widow and is residing with Florence only.
Sandy
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Arthur and Frank are in different places.
Have copies if you wish for them.
Sandy
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Only found Frank? and Arthur on the 1930.
Arthur is married with family.
Frank's is harder to work out relationship. :)
Off now as re-doing our kitchen and need to paint the ceiling. LOL.
Sandy
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Hi Tom
Welcome to Rootschat :D
If you are stuck before 1881 you could try posting for 41-71 census look-up here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,243.0.html
Post the 1881 details you have and anything else you definitely know eg birth or marriage certificate details and someone will help you go back from there.
Happy hunting
Jan ;)
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Tom
I am of the Norfolk branch of Carvers - take a look at this site to see if you can fit any of your details in http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/c/a/r/Glenn-W-Carver/
Best wishes
Nick
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Hello Everyone,
Sandy, Jan and Nick, sorry about the delay in getting back to you…I’ve been working over the weekend. You’ve all been so helpful, I really can’t thank you enough. Sandy, I would love copies…what do you need from me? I suspected many of the family emigrated but knowing exactly who and when is fantastic, thank you.
Jan, I’m still searching!
Nick,
My side of the family MUST fit in here somewhere, we’re from slightly west of Norfolk but so close to Hardley, Lodden etc. After searching a little more, it appears my great, great grandfather was James Carver, born 1861. I believe his father (Jonathan) is the brother of William Carver, born 1826 and who is shown in the family tree on the page you gave me. In fact, the page states that William was a witness at the marriage of Jonathan and Esther in 1856. It seems that brothers Jonathan and James Carver married the sisters, Susan and Esther Cossey. It would be really interesting to know where you fit in…are you a near or distant relative?
Thanks again for your help. Best wishes to all.
Tom Carver
:D
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Hi Tom
Will do.
Have PM you about exchange.
Sandy
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Tom
I descend from James Carver of Hardley (1788-1851), son of Thomas. James had four sons and three of them, John, William and Daniel moved up to Hull. It would seem John went first and started in Leeds before getting to Hull in the 1840s (typical Industrial Revolution migration) where his brothers followed him. John is my gg grandfather. If you can work out a relationship on that basis, good luck to you. PM me with an e-mail address and I'll send you a file with some details. I still live in E Anglia - in Cambs, but very close to the Suffolk/Norfolk border
Nick
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Nick
Thanks, I can’t see any obvious link.
I believe my ggg grandfather was Jonathan Carver (b.1831 Hardley, Norfolk and married to Esther) and I suspect his brother was William Carver (b.1826 Mundham, Norfolk.) although I can’t find them together on any census so more work is needed. However, Jonathan’s father was Jonathan b.1801 and his father was Thomas b.1753 in Langley, Norfolk which is next to Hardley. I wonder if your James Carver and my Jonathan were brothers…pure speculation, no evidence yet so I’ll send you that PM.
Thanks again.
Tom
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Check out the link I gave you. I suspect your Jonathan's father (also Jonathan) was born 1798, not 1801 and he was the brother of my James Carver. I am in touch with several people from that branch of the family
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Jan,
Can I just check something with you please.
The reference of the wheelwrighting apprenticeships to Hitchin St. Mary - where it refers to Carver Sam Thos. Could this be referring to separate individuals? I.e Not Samuel Thomas Carver but a Samuel & Thomas Carver?
The reference to apprenticeship was plural...just a thought.
Neil.
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Hi Neil
Now that is something I never thought of :D Re-reading the other entries unless there was anyone called Thos Eliz, Geo Mary and suchlike then yes Saml Thos may well be two people! So what happened to Thomas - brother presumably of Samuel?
Jan ;)
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Hmmmm.
The Thomas who married Susan Turner would seem to be ruled out as he married her in 1746 in Lower Gravenhurst and she died in 1760 in Southill. The apprenticeship was in 1754, between these dates.
Neil.
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Hi Jan et al,
Something else has occurred to me for the first time (I must stop doing this!). It's about the will of William Carver the yeoman labourer who died in Dunton in 1759.
If I understand this correctly, it references two sons John and Peter and the current consensus is that this William Carver is the father of 'Everton John'. A problem here is we do not have this Peter identified but we do know of a John (Everton John). I suggest that William Carver is referring to his grandchildren in the will and not his sons.
I say this because William Carver died in early August 1759 in Dunton. Just three weeks earlier Peter Carver, aged 3, the son of Everton John, dies in Dunton. we have no other known Peter Carver alive at this point. ‘Merrington’ John would have been approximately one year old at his grandfather’s death – assuming his baptism in 1758 was close to his birth.
All the male elder siblings of Peter and John in the summer of 1759 are dead (William died in 1750). Would anything be left to the female siblings? (Elizabeth, Mary and Ann). I suggest not which would explain why they do not appear in William’s will.
William almost certainly would not have had a chance to alter his will in the three weeks between Peter’s death and his own, especially if succumbed to the same illness as Peter. With a contagious disease raging in the village, who would want to see anybody about a new will who was from this village? In this way we can fully account for the ‘missing’ Peter.
On the above basis the will makes absolute sense if William left things to his grandchildren and not his son John. It would all fit. Now, I haven’t seen the will and the probate record. There is so much flying about that I may have missed this suggestion elsewhere – apologies if I have. Do we know when the will was written?
Your witness m’lud...
Neil.
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Hi Neil
Sorry to put paid to your theory
William of Dunton's will of which I have a copy was written 17 Sep 1748, (there is another one proved 1760 which I looked at but it appeared the same as the 1748 one, now wonder if there were alterations I didn't notice) - in it he makes bequests to
'wife Ann Carver'
'eldest son John Carver'
'youngest son Peter Carver'
'daughters Mary and Sarah Carver'
I can see baptisms for all these children plus William and another Sarah (b1826 bur1827). Can't see baptisms for the Elizabeth and Ann you mention - do you have them? There is no mention of William in the will and since John is said to be eldest son then William should have died before 1748 - a bit puzzling as I can't see another Beds burial for him other than 1750 one, maybe he moved out of county. If so who is the William buried Dunton 21 Feb 1750? And what happened to youngest son Peter?
A Peter Carver married Eliz Mayze in Tempsford 1747 and they had 3 daughters , Elizabeth Mary and Ann - no other Carver/Calver activity in Tempsford so think this is most likely the youngest son of William
I will have a further dig
Jan ;)
This thread now contains a mass of information and has become rather unwieldy and confusing - when I have time to go through it I will try to extract info for a summary. I might later lock this thread and start another.
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Hi Jan,
Thanks for this. I can see the Tempsford baptisms now.
I have a baptism for an Elizabeth at Dunton for 30th March 1746 to John and Mary.
I have a baptism for an Ann at Dunton for 11th February 1753 to John and Mary.
I have a baptism for William at Dunton 7th May 1749 to John and Mary. I have presumed this William died 21st February, 1750.
Neil.
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Hi
Thanks for clarifying that - I was thinking Ann and Elizabeth were daughter's of William and Ann so got confused.
Yes agree the 1750 death is likely to be son of John and Mary - needs checking on the transcripts sometime, might say 'son of'. So that leaves William baptised May 130th 1714 son of William and Ann who should have died before 1748.
Jan
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Hi all,
I have located Parish Church apprenticeship records for the sons of Samuel Carver who was himself apprenticed via the Baptist Church to Hitchin as a wheelwright in 1744 and was subsequently twice married in Hitchin in 1754 (St. Ippollitts) and 1759 (St. Mary).
These are the details:
29th December 1773: Thomas Carver of Hitchin apprenticed to James Alldred, Silk Weaver of Bethnal Green, Middx. Father: Samuel Carver.
25th March 1778: John Carver of Hitchin apprenticed to William Eastwick, Weaver of Hitchin. Father: Samuel Carver.
As I understand parish apprenticeships, these were for children who were effectively paupers of the parish and it was an attempt to give them a start in life via a trade. Exactly where this lies between virtual slavery or a form of technical college I leave for others to cogitate over. Thomas would have been 13 years old and John 16. The implication from this is that things were not going well for Samuel’s family.
I had a quick check and Bethnal Green seems to have been the English centre of silk weaving. It could also help explain why we have no sign of Carvers in Hertfordshire later on and off the top of my head perhaps explain the development of Carvers in London(?) For those unfamiliar with Bethnal Green, it is an inner-city east London district now and I suspect even in the 1770s was part of London then.
Source of above information was the Hertfordshire County Records Office in Hertford where the apprenticeship records are on microfilm. I have photocopies of them. It’s effectively a standard contract with just the details of the Master and Apprentice filled in. It includes:
“At Cards, Dice, Tables, or any other unlawful Games, he shall not play”, “his lawful Secrets keep, his lawful Commands every where gladly do”, etc.
Both of the Masters were able to sign their name. No sign of acquiescence from Samuel on the document which does not surprise me as it seems very much a deal between the Church parish and the Masters.
Neil.
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Hi everybody,
First let me apologise for my long absemce, but everything has happened at once t the family in different parts of th ecountry, so been very busy, but I will get back on the case.
Nick, I will get back to you about DNA tests.
However, your posts about apprenticeships goes a long way to proving my link as my Thomas Carver, b c1760, was a weaver in Bethnal Green. He also had a brother John about whom I know very little apart from he died in London. I just need to find a half brother Samuel from Samuel senior's first marriage to make it all fit very well.
Chris
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Hi
Those apprenticeship records are interesting Neil and certainly looking good for your family Chris - perhaps non-conformist baptism for your missing Samuel?
Jan ;)
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I took some notes from a book by the Bedfordshire Historical Records Society (vol. 51) called “Some Early Non-Conformist Church Books” edited by H.G.Tibbutt (1972).
There was a reference to Thomas Carver in the book but only repeating what has already been referred to earlier in his thread.
There was a potted history of the Southill Independence Church. It was formed via ‘a peaceable separation’ in 1693 from the Bedford Independent Church. The Bedford Independent Church itself had split from the Rothwell Independent Church previously. The Bedford section was its southern section and the northern section in the split was based in Kimbolton.
The book goes on to describe an “interesting feature” of the Southill Independent Church. Of its early members many came from Hertfordshire. Given we know in 1744 Samuel Carver went from Southill to Hitchin in Hertfordshire via a Baptist Church apprenticeship, this would tie in neatly with the link described above.
Neil.
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Hi, Bev in Australia has asked me to post the tree that she thought she had uploaded several months ago. It is in PDF format and over the 500kb limit, so I will transcribe it and repost. This tree was compiled c1934 and of note is the first line that reads "unknown Carver Leader of riot who pulled down meeting house Aug 1714"
Any queries, pse feel free to contact me direct.
Chris
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Look forward to seeing the tree Chris
Jan ;)
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Hi everybody,
This is the first of 3 posts each with a jpg image of part of Beverley's tree. Parts one and two are part duplicates and I think there must be other parts missing. However, you should be able to download them (I think) for better viewing.
Of note, on part 2 is a reference to an American connection which he has been unable to ascertain the exact connection, but he must have thought there was one!
Chris
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Carver tree part 2
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Carver tree part 3
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Hi all,
Re reference to Connecticut governors - the following link is to a list of Connecticut governors:
http://www.cslib.org/gov/
John Carver, who was on The Mayflower, was the first governor of Massachussets. Born. c. 1576, d. Apr. 5, 1621, He was a wealthy merchant, he helped arrange the Pilgrims' emigration to America in 1620, chartering the Mayflower. He was governor for less than a year before his death.
I believe he had no descendants - there is a Carver and a South Carver in Massachussets named after him:
http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=US|carver,%20massachussets#map=41.88846,-70.7687|12|4&loc=US:41.88846:-70.7687:12|carver,%20massachussets|Carver,%20Massachusetts,%20United%20States
Neil.
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You are correct that John Carver of Mayflower fame had no direct descendants, but his brother Robert, also on the ship has propagated a large number of descendants who hold great kudos in the link.
That branch of Carvers came from Notts, IIRC
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Hi Nick,
That's interesting about Robert. I only knew of John. The link below refers to the relationship between John and Robert. Looks like they're touting for business!
Cheers,
Neil.
http://members.aol.com/calebj/carver.html
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In what I have read, the fact that John and Robert were brothers seems to have been taken as gospel by the authors, possibly because as Robert's descendants,. they would prefer the link to John Carver to be real rather than unproven.
I like to think that I belong to a parallel branch of the family that had the sense to stay in England. I guess I'll never prove it, but it certainly winds up the American Carvers, who think they are some sort of royalty
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Hi Nick,
Having descended from a bunch of dissenters and being a republican myself, I feel obliged to say the American (Mayflower) Carvers are rightly not royalty - they're actually more important than that. When it comes to royalty I've always felt the Russians had the right idea about them(!)
Budem zdorovy!
Neil.
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Has anyone come across PEACE Carver son of Henry alias my Benjamin (of Parramatta), presumably born prior to Ben's transportation in 1792. he was recorded as a bachelor at the time of his marriage here in 1792, but was alway the mystery man so could have either been actually married in UK or a widower ????
It seems that Mr Fisher gad access to such a lot of accurate info for his f/tree research why would he have added Peace if no carver family member had never heard reference to him ???
Just another of the Carver mysteries, but Peace seems such a great name to find.
thanks
beverley
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Sandy,
I see you have a Hall listed in the names at the bottom of your reply. I'm interested to know who that is.
I have a great uncle who moved to Shoreditch from Winterton Linclonshire
Irene
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Hi Everyone
I am locking this thread as it has become too unwieldy and have started Part 2 here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=325277.new#new
See you there
Jan ;)