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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: shireflyer on Wednesday 21 February 07 02:14 GMT (UK)

Title: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: shireflyer on Wednesday 21 February 07 02:14 GMT (UK)
Hi all

Am new to this forum but hop someone can help me past a brick wall.

I am looking for the parents of William Briarley (Brierley) b 27/5/1823 c 6/7/1823 in Denton Lancs. I have found this entry in LDS which shows his parents as William & Hannah. I have confirmed this by obtaining the transcript from Manchester Council archives.

My problem is that there are quite a few William & Hannah's and without Hannah's maiden name I can't trace any further.

I have found William (b 1823 back to 1861 census where the surname was transcribed as Buirley.

Can anyone help give me some direction as to where to look further.

Unfortunately, being from Oz, I have the tyranny of distance and research is by web only.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 21 February 07 19:30 GMT (UK)
Hi

I'm not sure - but I think you may have either the wrong baptism or the wrong census entry.

The 1861 census for William Buirley (Brierley) was for Derbyshire and both he and his wife are shown as born in Cheshire - not Lancashire.  I don't think the district is Denton - I think it's something like Lenton or Linton

They have a son Joseph b c 1850 Cheshire (looks like Woodly).  Looking at the 1851 census there is a Joseph Brierly aged 8 months b Bredbury Cheshire living with his grandmother Ellen Moors in Bredbury.  On the 1871 census - their other son Robert b Glossop 1853/54 is living in Cheshire with Ellen Moors

Ellen must have re-married as there are children surname Bowler shown as her children.

From freebmd - marriage

William Brierley/Jane Bowler June qtr 1850 Stockport Cheshire Volume 19 Page 270

And also from Cheshire BMD - www.cheshirebmd.org.uk

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
 
BOWLER Jane BRIERLEY William Stockport, St Mary Stockport ST16/7/138

However - on the 1871 census - William's birthplace changes to Gorton Lancs but Jane's remains as Bredbury Cheshire

Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Pegasuss on Friday 23 February 07 01:16 GMT (UK)
Shireflyer.


This maybe the right Marriage for Wm BRAIRLEY Snr:

To Hannah FIELDING
    
4th JUN 1819, Prestwich, Lancashire
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: shireflyer on Friday 23 February 07 06:57 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your interest Pagasus,

You may well be right, however, there is another Briarley christened in Denton Lancashire. That being Alfred also to William and Hannah. I am thinking that this is probably William's brother due to the same parent's name and christened in the same town.

I have his birth date as being 3rd May 1819 and christened 22/8/1819.

Maybe the birthdate is incorrect given the marriage date, but that is what is on LDS.

Or, then again, maybe they had Alfred out of wedlock.

Thanks again for your input.
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: shireflyer on Friday 23 February 07 07:02 GMT (UK)
Thanks Carole,

You may well be right about the census.

I have William b 1823's parish register transcription and death certificate, so am reasonably sure that I have the right person. William and Jane appear in all the censuses until 1871. William died in 1878.

As Lancashire Derbyshire, and Cheshire share borders, maybe there is a cross over of information with registration districts etc.

Thanks again for trying for me. I'll keep on searching.
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: dinkey on Friday 23 February 07 08:31 GMT (UK)
In the 1841 census they are living at Marple Cheshire

William Head age 50 dyer
Hannah wife age 50
Alfred age 20
William age 15
Harriet age 12
Emma age 2

If you were to order Emma's birth certificate as it will give you Hannah's maiden name

Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Valda on Friday 23 February 07 08:53 GMT (UK)
1851 census HO107 2154 folio 5
Derby Lane Marple  Cheshire   
William Brierley  69  Tintwistle, Cheshire,  Head Married Cotton Dyer
Hannah Brierley  60  Tintwistle, Cheshire,  Wife Married
Mary Sidebottom  70 Tintwistle, Cheshire,  Sister-in-law  Widow 
plus 1 lodger

Same address as 1841
HO107 112/1 folio 5 page 4
William senior states not born Cheshire in 1841.

If Hannah was the mother of Emma she would have to have been around 48.

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Valda on Friday 23 February 07 09:28 GMT (UK)
Possible burial for Hannah in an adjacent parish to Marple.

14th January 1852 Chadkirk Chapel & St Chad Cheshire
Hannah Brierley aged 63

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: shireflyer on Saturday 24 February 07 03:45 GMT (UK)
Thanks Dinkey and Valda for your help.

I think that you are both right.

These census findings are the only reference I can find with William Snr, Hannah and William jnr, although this would make William jnr's birthdate about 1826.


Having said that. I wonder what happened to Emma, who wasn't with them in 1851, but would have only been 12.

The 1851 census also shows that Mary Sidebottom (sister-in-law) is residing with them. Might one assume that Hannah was a Sidebottom too?

Once again, thanks for your help and interest. I'll keep digging away.

Regards
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: dinkey on Saturday 24 February 07 07:52 GMT (UK)
Mary Sidebottom shown as sister-in-law could have been Hannah's sister but she is shown as a widow on the 1851 census so that is her married name and unfortunately will not help you determine Hannah's maiden name.
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Valda on Saturday 24 February 07 09:04 GMT (UK)
Adult ages on the 1841 census - anyone over the age of 15 were usually rounded down to the nearest 5 by the census enumerators (that was their instructions but some times actual ages are given). Therefore the only thing you know about William junior's age in Marple on the 1841 census is that it was somewhere between 15 and 19. Ditto the ages for William senior, Hannah and Alfred.

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Valda on Saturday 24 February 07 10:07 GMT (UK)
St. Michael Mottram-in-Longdendale was the ancient parish church for Tintwistle.

There is a baptism of a Hannah Fielding in Mottram at about the right time, but unfortunately no baptism for a sister Mary. There are other possible Hannahs baptised at about the same time (including even a Hannah Sidebottom).

HANAH FIELDING 
Christening:  05 SEP 1790   Mottram In Longdendale, Cheshire,
Father:  JNO FIELDING 
Mother:  NANEY 

There are 5 other baptisms for children of John and Nanny/Hannah between 1779 and 1800. No Brierleys but then William gave not born Cheshire on the 1841 census.

One of Hannah' siblings was Charles.

CHARLES FIELDING   
Christening:  10 JUN 1781   Mottram In Longdendale, Cheshire
Father:  JOHN FIELDING 
Mother:  NANY 

1851 census HO107 2152 folio 105
Hall Street Glossop  Derbyshire 
Charles Fielding  abt 1782  Tintwistle, Cheshire,  Head  Widower Independent
plus 1 lodger and 1 servant

However, Mary Sidebottom remains a difficulty, certainly in proving any connection to Hannah Fielding baptised Mottram.

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Pegasuss on Saturday 24 February 07 18:44 GMT (UK)
I tried a search on ancestry.co.uk for 'Mary Sidebottom, Bn 1881 (+/-1), Cheshire', and it came up with a Looong List, but there was none Bn 1881!

There were Intersting ones:

Mary Sidebottom      abt 1776 (2 entries)

Mary Sidebottom      abt 1786


P.S.

If someone as a Full Sub for ancestry.co.uk, could You please look them Up? (Maybe this will sort it out!) ;)
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Valda on Sunday 25 February 07 10:18 GMT (UK)
Since Sidebottom existed as a surname in Tintwistle there is a possibility Mary married someone local to the village. A search of Sidebottom marriages in St. Michael Mottram-in-Longdendale on the IGI married to Marys gets

JOHN SIDEBOTTOM 
MARY WOOD 
Marriage:  24 OCT 1830   Mottram In Longdendale, Cheshire

JAMES SIDEBOTTOM 
MARY FIRTH   
Marriage:  12 JUL 1824   Mottram In Longdendale, Cheshire
 
SAMUEL SIDEBOTTOM 
MARY HOWARD 
Marriage:  12 JUN 1821   Mottram In Longdendale, Cheshire

JOSHUA SIDEBOTHAM 
MARY WINTERBOTTOM 
Marriage:  18 APR 1808   Mottram In Longdendale, Cheshire

If any of these is the correct marriage and it is a bit of a long shot, the earliest marriage would be the likeliest.
Joshua and Mary had these children baptised in Mottram.

SIDEBOTHAM, Charles   
Christening Date:   24 Mar 1811

Margaret Sidebottom
Christening: 10 APR 1814

SIDEBOTTOM, James   
Christening Date:   10 Dec 1815

Jemima Sidebotom
Christening: 28 JUN 1818

Betty Sidebottom
Christening: 25 FEB 1821

Kitty Sidebottom
Christening: 03 AUG 1823

Christiana Sidebottom
Christening: 01 APR 1827

Joe Sidebottom
Christening: 05 JUL 1829

Mary Sidebottom
Christening: 02 SEP 1832

This appears to be the family in 1841

HO107 110/2 folio 17 page 28
Wagstaff Street Dukinfield  Cheshire (like Marple a parish in Stockport) 
Mary Sidebottom 55  Cheshire
Ann Sidebottom 33  Cheshire Stretcher?
James Sidebottom 25 Not born Cheshire Corder?   
Jemima Sidebottom 20 Not born Cheshire
Betty Sidebottom 20  Not born Cheshire
Betty Sidebottom 18 Not born Cheshire
Joe Sidebottom 12  Cheshire
Mary Sidebottom 9 Cheshire

The unmarried Sidebottom daughters are together in Dukinfield on the 1851 census (it could just mean their mother had died).

1851 census HO107 2237 folio 341
Wagstaff Street Dukinfield  Lancashire   
Ann Sidebottom  42  Mathern, Cheshire,  Head  Cotton Piercer?
Betty Sidebottom  30  Stalybridge, Lancashire, Sister  Cotton Piercer
Kitty Sidebottom  28 Stalybridge, Lancashire,  Sister Cotton Frame  ?
Mary Sidebottom  18  Stalybridge, Cheshire, Sister Power Loom Weaver

All very interesting but absolutely no evidence of a Hannah Winterbottom marriage to a William Brierley and also tricky to find both a Mary Winterbottom and a Hannah Winterbottom of roughly the right ages baptised in Mottram with the same parents, where one of them doesn't die young, so this Sidebottom family remain an unproven possibility.

Not sure what look up you are requesting for a search on Ancestry. If you search on Sidebottom you are searching on the woman's maiden name and Sidebottom was Mary's married name.

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Pegasuss on Sunday 25 February 07 17:52 GMT (UK)
Valda.

Quote
Not sure what look up you are requesting for a search on Ancestry. If you search on Sidebottom you are searching on the woman's maiden name and Sidebottom was Mary's married name.

I had to read the above a few times! ::)

How does a Search on Ancestry for a 'Mary SIDEBOTTOM, Bn C1881, Cheshire' look like a 'Maiden-name Search' to you? (I only meant through the Census Records) ::) ;)

I have in the past used this kind of method to work around a brickwall! ;)
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Valda on Sunday 25 February 07 19:17 GMT (UK)
The difficulty in searching just for Mary Sidebottoms in Cheshire born circa 1781 on the 1841 census is the unreliability of the born in out of county on this census and the fact that the Stockport area straddles the county boundary with Lancashire so you would need to check Lancashire as well for anyone not born in county there.

The older Mary Sidebottom born circa 1776 was in Newton Cheshire - sorry I can only see one. By the ages of those with her she was also probably a widow. Two other Mary Sidebottoms in Lancashire both give a rounded down age of 60 and were not born Lancashire, either in one case the Mary was unmarried or in both cases they were likely to be widows - one was living alone. Other Mary Sidebottoms in Cheshire stating born Cheshire were in Prestbury aged 60, and Chester aged 56 - which doesn't look like a rounded down age (others appear on the 1851 census who don't seem to be found easily in 1841 so obviously these are not all the possible Mary Sidebottoms born Cheshire in 1841)

I'm not sure in this case where next to nothing is known about Mary Sidebottom, except her age and place of birth, a blanket search of the 1841 census in Cheshire alone would be of much help, which is why I started with the standard approach of begining with what was known (hopefully if the information is correct on the 1851 census and I doubt it is for William's place of birth) about her birth place of Tintwistle and attempted to connected to what was unknown - her whereabouts on the 1841 census.This has resulted in one match which either needs to be confirmed or eliminated (not an easy task) before looking at any other possible Mary Sidebottoms on the 1841 census since the name is not rare in this part of the country and eliminating or proving those Mary Sidebottoms would be much more difficult.

There are other records which can be searched in Ancestry and I thought what with the confusion of the date it was probably a family tree search to see whether anyone else had researched the family that was being requested.

There is one person showing an interest in Sidebottoms from Mottram in Dukinfield

http://www.fhsc.org.uk/fhsc/dkdirectory.htm

which is part of the Cheshire Family History Society which has an online database of members surname interests.

http://www.fhsc.org.uk/

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Pegasuss on Sunday 25 February 07 19:24 GMT (UK)
Valda.

Point Taken! :-[

So, It looks like a bit of a 'Needle in a Haystack' Situation! ::)

What a pity this Mary Did'nt Marry someone with an Unusual Surname! ::) ;)
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: shireflyer on Thursday 08 March 07 05:07 GMT (UK)
Hi Valda & Pegasuss

Have been doing a bit more digging and have found the following;

William Whitworth b 1753 Arnfield, Mottram m Betty Moss 22/2/1778 and had the following children;

Sarah          c  19/5/1779 Arnfield
Debora        c   9/1/1782  Arnfield
Mary            c 18/4/1784  Arnfield
Hannah       c 12/4/1787  Arnfield
John            c   7/1/1793  Arnfiled  d 22/2/1798
Whitworth   c    1/5/1797  Hollingsworth
Jenny           c  26/4/1803 Hollingsworth

William Sidebottom m Mary Whitworth 10/10/1803

John Winterbottom m Sarah ? and had the following children;

Mary           c 25/  1/1789 Mottram
Lettice        c 19/  8/1787 Mottram
Samuel       c   8/  5/1791 Mottram
Hannah      c   7/  4/1793 Mottram
John           c   6/12/1795 Mottram
Robert        c   2/  6/1798 Mottram
Joseph       c  28/ 4/1800 Mottram
James        c    9/11/1801 Mottram

Joshua Sidebottom m Mary Winterbottom 18/4/1808

Ralph Howard m Hannah and had the following children;

Sarah         c 18/  4/1779 Mottram
Mary           c 12/11/1780 Mottram
John           c  24/ 4/1785 Mottram
Ann            c  23/11/1787 Mottram
Betty          c  13/  5/1792 Mottram

Samuel Sidebottom m Mary Howard 22/7/1804

These are the only families I can find with both daughters named Mary and Hannah who married Sidebottoms and their birthdates are relatively close.

However, I can not find any relationship between a Hannah Whitworth/Winterbottom/Howard to a William Brierley.

Any clues where to from here?

Are there any pre 1837 parish marriage registers fro Cheshire and surrounding counties that are free to search?

Thanks for all your efforts thus far.
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Valda on Thursday 08 March 07 07:02 GMT (UK)
http://www.genfair.com/shop/pages/chs/page20.html

Cheshire Record Office does hold this will

First Name: WILLIAM 
Surname: BRIERLEY 
Place: STOCKPORT 
Occupation: GENTLEMAN 
Date: 1854 


but I think it would be a long shot - an ordinary cotton dyer is far less likely to leave a will.

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: shireflyer on Thursday 29 March 07 08:14 BST (UK)
Hi Valda

I think I am a bit closer so solving my riddle on William Brierley.

Given that his father is the one on the 1841 Census in Dooley lane Tintwistle aged 50 and also on the 1851 Census at same address but aged 69, then assuming he was born 1782 and not in Cheshire, I think I have found William Snr b Hollingsworth Lancashire from National Archives which shows him being discharged aged 31 in 1813 i.e b 1782 from 17th Dragoons (Light) . If this is the case could you please advise where a birth for Hollingsworth is likely to be registered? I have found a christening for same year on LDS for Saint Margaret Chadderton Hollinwood Lancashire, but this seems to be a long way from Denton, Padfield, Hadfield and Glossop where the rest seem to eminate. Hollingsworth seems more likely as it in that area.

Hope you can help

Best regards

Norm
Title: Re: William Briarley b 1823 Denton Lancs.
Post by: Valda on Thursday 29 March 07 23:21 BST (UK)
Civil registration began on 1st July 1837. There are no birth registrations before this date.
Hollingworth was in Cheshire and part of the parish of Mottram-in-Longdendale.

'Mottram-in-Longdendale, St. Michael (C of E). The ancient parish church for Hollingworth.
Tintwistle, Christ Church (C of E). The parish church from 1836 to 1922.
Hollingworth, St. Mary (C of E). Built 1864 as a chapel to Tintwistle, becoming the parish church for Hollingworth in 1922.'

Regards

Valda