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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Worcestershire => England => Worcestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: pamty12 on Tuesday 20 February 07 13:12 GMT (UK)
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???
Can anyone help. I have 1861 census showing William Smith, wife Harriet Hooper and son Charles age 8. b. 1853 ish. I cannot find him in 1871 and have difficulty finding his birth, I have a marriage for Will and Harriet as Q3 1858, so that would mean they married after Charles'birth. I also have no info. on a marriage or death for him. ??? The family lived in Calines worcester, but 1861 says Charles was born in St. Marys Shropshire??
Can anyone solve this puzzle?
thanks
Pam
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1871 - RG10/3067; Folio: 59; Page: 34 - Claines
Ombersley Road
William Smith 48 Head Market Gardener Herefordshire, Much Martle ?
Harriett Smith 33 Wife Hallow
Henry Smith 13 son Errand Boy Claines
William Smith 10 son Scholar do
John C Smith 8 son do
Mary E Smith 5 dau do
Ellen F Smith 3 dau do
Alfred A Smith 4 months son do
ah, I've realised that its Charles you seek ! ::)
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On the 1851 Census WIlliam is living in Much Marcle in herefordshire aged 29.
If Charles was born around 1853, is Harriet his mother ? Is 1871 age is correct she would have only been 15 - was Charles the son from a previous marriage ?
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Hi EBN,
It is possible. There are several William Smiths which I am trying to sort out. One of them was married before to a Lucy Baker I am not sure if this is the William of my line or not. Do you think that Charles maybe Lucy Bakers son? Is there anyway to find out.?
Regards
Pam
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His marriage certificate will carry his father's name hopefully.
You know the William you want married Harriet, so that certificate is available from Worcester Register Office.
Then write to the appropriate Register Office for any possible marriage like William and Lucy and ask that the details like father and possibly occupation are similar. They will inform you if there is not a match on the details before you actually purchase.
If the details match sufficiently then I reccommend you buy that Certificate which will give the wife's details. His marriage Certificate to Harriet should have Widower on it as his status/
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Hi EBN,
Thank you for the information. I will try and get the marriage cert. and hope I have chosen the right William.
Pam
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Hello Pam
Here is an interesting entry (in relation to your earlier reference to Lucy Baker)
1871
Bridgnorth RG10/2743 Folio 11 Page 16
John Baker Head M 76 Retired Joiner Bridgnorth
Sarah do Wife M Staffordshire
Charles Smith Grandson U 18 Painter Bridgnorth
Address 37 West Castle Street, ST MARY, Bridgnorth
On the 1851 census these people have a daughter Lucy aged 29.
DS
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Free BMD shows both a Lucy Baker and a William Smith marrying June Quarter 1852 in Bridgnorth
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Pam
Death registration
1875 Worcester OND quarter 6c 195
Lucy Smith
DS
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Birth Reg Charles Smith Dec Quarter 1853 Worcester - seems a possibility
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Hi EBN,
That date for the birth fits in with my records. If I request the cert. do you happen to know what info. will be on it?
Thanks
Pam
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On the 1881 census Charles Smith aged 29 born Bridgnorth, a labourer, was married to Fanny and living in Walsall.
What do you know for certain about your Charles Smith - the first census for instance you know for certain is him? What information does he give about his father on his marriage?
Smith is an extremely common surname so you are bound to get more than one William and Charles of roughly the same age in the same place, if not several.
Regards
Valda
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From the IGI
CHARLES SMITH
Christening: 12 NOV 1853 St Andrew, Worcester
Father: ARTHUR SMITH
Mother: MARY
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Many thanks for that bit of info. That is not my Charles. At least I have ruled one out. So back to the drawing board.
Thanks again
Pam
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Aaah, that's likely to be that one thrown out then !
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When requesting a Birth Certificate - write to the local Register Office and request a Certificate for Charles - ONLY if Mother is Lucy Baker or Smith. and possibly the father is William.
There is a possibility he was born before the marriage to consider always and had the surname Baker when registered.
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EBN
Yup! as I said back to the drawing board. Really apprietiate you input and help though.
Pam :)
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Pam
Revision. Sorry I transposed the 7 and the 5 in my earlier entry.
Death registration
1857 Worcester OND quarter 6c 195
Lucy Smith
When you say "Back to the drawing board" does that mean that you do not think the 1871 census entry that I found is relevant ?
DS
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A Birth Certificate from this time will show from left to right.
Date and Place of Birth - Christian names - Father's name and occupation and address - Mother's name and previous surname - who registered the birth, their signature, or mark, address and who they were [eg Present at Birth, Mother, Father , Occupier ]- the date regsitered - the registrar's name
But do not guarantee anything. Like poor little Jane down as James, a boy, and confusing the family historians somewhat. Either the Mother mumbled or the egsitrar was a bit deaf. She could not write so could not read the entry and it has taken 140 years to notice !
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Free BMD shows both a Lucy Baker and a Charles Smith marrying June Quarter 1852 in Bridgnorth
It was William Smith who married Lucy Baker in 1852 and therefore if Charles was born in 1853 he would undoubtedly have been called Smith (not Baker).
DS
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I was just covering the possibilty of him being born in 1852 just prior to the marriage and then taking father's name.
Can happen so I would always check that if no other likely birth was available
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Sorry have amended the former post to read William Smith with a marriage in the June Qr 1852 in Bridgnorth
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Some details of that marriage in Bridgnorth.
3 June 1852 at St Mary's, Bridgnorth.
William Smith, age 40, Bachelor, Coachman. Father = William Smith, Farmer.
to
Lucy Baker, age 30, Spinster, Dressmaker. Father John Baker, Joiner.
Gwynne
Transcribing the Bridgnorth town census and other records.
http://www.chadwickg.freeserve.co.uk
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Hi Gwynne,
Thank you very much for the marriage details. I didn't know their occupations, and it also confirmed the parents names.
Many thanks again.
Regards
Pam
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I thought the William Smith you were interested in was the market gardener born circa 1823 in Herefordshire from the 1871 census, not a coachman born circa 1812 from the Bridgnorth marriage reference in 1852.
Is the Charles Smith you are interested in then the labourer on the 1881 census?
'On the 1881 census Charles Smith aged 29 born Bridgnorth, a labourer, was married to Fanny and living in Walsall'.
I had assumed you were probably interested in the Charles Smith who from the 1881 census onwards gives Worcester as his place of birth circa 1853?
What information does the Charles Smith you are interested in give on his marriage about his father's occupation? Which Charles Smith is it?
Regards
Valda
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1851 census HO107 1975 folio 429
Arnells Much Marcle Herefordshire
Emma Smith 57 Lambeth, Surrey, Head Widow Farmer of 115 acres employing 6 labourers
Mary Ann Smith 32 Much Marcle, Herefordshire, Farmer's Daughter Unmarried
Emma Farlow Smith 30 Much Marcle, Herefordshire, Farmer's Daughter Unmarried
William Smith 29 Much Marcle, Herefordshire, Farmer's Son Unmarried
John Smith 22 Much Marcle, Herefordshire, Farmer's son Son Unmarried
Louisa Smith 1799 Lambeth, Surrey, Visitor Unmarried Farmer's Wife?
plus 2 servants
Two William Smiths showing in the village in 1841. One aged 20 a farmer with head of house Louisa Smith. The other William was aged 25 with head of household James an ag lab, both born Herefordshire.
William Smith whose mother was Emma was not in the village in 1841. The head of the household at Arnells was Thomas Smith a farmer.
1841 census rounds down to the nearest 5 adult ages.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Yes I have realised the ages do not match up. I am now now sure which William is 'mine'. I have a William which I am 99.9% on the 1871 census. His age is 48, birth Hereford. then on 1861 the same family Williams age is 47, birth Much Marcle, Herefordshire.
The thing is I am sure he married a Lucy Baker before Harriett, and that Charles aged 8 on 1861 census was their child. 1861 says Charles was born St. Mary's, Shropshire. Bridgenorth was/is in Shropshire. I am a little confused to say the least. I think I will have to sit back and re look at what I have.
Thank you for the help.
Pam
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Pam
I think that I was instrumental in encouraging you to believe that your William married Lucy Baker: had Charles: Lucy died and then he married Harriet etc. The bits of information which are available online from the 1861 census to the 1871 census (and the lack of any contra evidence) all point to that probably being the case.
However, I have just seen Gwynne's message which seems to shatter that theory and I want to apologise, publicly and profusely, if I have caused you to follow the wrong path.
At the start of this thread one of the problems that was highlighted was the inability to find a birth registration for a Charles Smith born in 1853 (ish) in Bridgnorth. That, in itself, seemed a bit odd. If, from Gwynne’s information, we have to conclude that the Charles shown in 1861 with your William and the one shown in 1871 with his grandparents (the Bakers) are not the same person then it seems ultra odd that there are two missing birth registrations in Bridgnorth in 1853 for children called Charles Smith who each had a father called William.
I wonder (being a bit cheeky) if Gwynne, with his special knowledge of Bridgnorth matters, could possibly look into this aspect for you? If one (or two) birth records could be found, it might help to remove some of the confusion.
DS
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Hi Ds,
Thanks for the reply. I am trying to sort out all info. (with my very limited knowledge of the way things work in genealogy) from all you kind peeps. It is unfortunate that there were alot of William Smiths in Hereford and Worcester at that time. I also feel a bit guilty that everyone has been trying so hard to slove my problem.
Regards
Pam
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Pam, we all enjoy a mystery and a challenge - that is why we indulge ourselves with genealogy. :)
Now you have a lot of bits of jigsaw, some correct, some tentative, go back to basics. Link from your family back using Census etc and what you know to be accurate. then you can eliminate the ones that cannot be your family, and try to fit in all the ones that are.
Don't get hung up on ages unless they are way out, the 1841 census is accurate to the nearest 5 years. So ladies always reduced their ages on that ! ::)But ages on records are not necessarily accurate.
The most accurate are likely to be the Birth, Marriage and Death Certificates from the Register Offices, but even they are fallible.
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Hi EBN,
Thanks for that note. I have started with requesting the marriage cert. for William and Harriet, If William was married before it should say widower on the cert. I will then also have the parents names.
Any ideas as how to proceed after that?
Pam
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Now here's a name to conjour with ! ;)
William Bowen Ambrose SMITH baptised at Claines 25/3/1860 some of William SMITH and Harriet....
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1881 census at 8 Gregory Terrace Claines
Harriet SMITH Widow aged 42 born Hallow Laundress
William Smith son Unmarr aged 20 born Claines Baker
John Smith .. .. aged 18 born Claines Gardener
Ellen Smith dau .. aged 12 .. .. Scholar
George Smith sone aged 7 .. .. ..
Harriet Smith Dau aged 4 .. .. ..
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Hi,
Yes I have that one from 1861 census., there can't be too many of those around. Pity he isn't the one I want!!
I also have 1881 and 1891 census for Henry Hooper who is/ was my great grandfather. Henry appears on 1861 aged 4.
Pam
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It depends what surname Charles had his birth registered in whether his birth registration is missing or not.
1861 census RG9 2109 folio 39
Claines Worcestershire
William Smith 47 Much Marcle, Herefordshire, Head Married Market Gardener
Harriett Smith 26 Hallow, Worcestershire, Wife Married
Charles Smith 8 St Mary, Shropshire, Son
Harry Smith 4 Claines, Worcestershire, Son
Wm Ambrose Smith 1 Claines, Worcestershire, Son
Wm Smith 25 Hallow, Worcestershire, Lodger Unmarried Ag lab
WILLIAM SMITH
HARRIETT HOOPER
Marriage: 25 AUG 1858 Claines, Worcester
HARRY SMITH HOOPER
Christening: 19 APR 1857 Claines, Worcester
Mother: HARRIET HOOPER
June 1857 Droitwich
Harry Smith Hooper
6c 339
which would mean if the Lucy Smith death registration in Worcester was correct it occurred after the birth of Harry.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
I have the same 1861 census that you have just posted. The only difference is Harry appears on yours and Henry appears on mine. do you think therefore that the first two children - Charles and Henry/Harry were born to Lucy if in fact William was married before. (I will know for sure in a few days when hopefully I will get the marriage cert. )
that would be interesting as Henry/Harry was my great grandfather.
Pam
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Harriet is using a tactic employed by some single mothers in C19, giving her baby the surname of the father as a second name. OK if its a boy, but there are Mary Jones Evans and Sarah Thomas Brown's about too ::)
So maybe she did this for Charles too ....??????
I wonder if they married because another child was on the way ?
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HARRY SMITH HOOPER
Christening: 19 APR 1857 Claines, Worcester
Mother: HARRIET HOOPER
Born 16 months before his parents' marriage
Marriages Mar 1878 (>99%)
PARDOE Elizabeth Droitwich 6c 388
Smith Henry Hooper Droitwich 6c 388
I as yet see no evidence that William Smith the market gardener aged 47 in Worcester in 1861 (aged 48 in 1871) has any connection with William Smith aged 40 a coachman in Bridgnorth marrying Lucy Baker in 1852.
Charles Smith on the 1861 census has a birthplace of St. Marys Shropshire. If you put just St. Marys Shropshire into an 1861 census index and look for anyone giving that birthplace what you find is people born St. Marys Shrewsbury. So the more well known church and area around it was St. Marys Shrewsbury which appears on the census as just St. Marys.
Do you have any evidence that Charles Smith actually survived childhood?
Regards
Valda
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Hi
I have the marriage for Henry and Elizabeth Pardoe, so that is good. I was searching for a death for Charles in case he didn't survive childhood, when I couldn't find one I started this post.
Interesting about St. Mary's. though. I might try and search for Shewsbury.
Pam
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Hi Pam,
On 26 February, DS said;
I wonder (being a bit cheeky) if Gwynne, with his special knowledge of Bridgnorth matters, could possibly look into this aspect for you? If one (or two) birth records could be found, it might help to remove some of the confusion.
I'm glad to help but I have been desperately short of time. Hopefully, it has been worth waiting for.
Christened at St. Mary's church, Bridgnorth on 13 March 1853.
Charles, son of William & Lucy SMITH, Coachman of West Castle Street, Bridgnorth.
Buried at St. Mary's church, Bridgnorth on 10 March 1853.
Lucy SMITH, age 30. [comment - no headstone now exists]
Also found the Christening at St. Mary's church, Bridgnorth on 22 June 1822.
Lucy, dau of John & Sarah BAKER, Joiner of Back Castle Street, Bridgnorth.
Other children of John & Sarah BAKER that were Christened between 1822 and 1830.
John on 1 Feb 1824, Edwin on 26 Feb 1826, Ellen on 27 Feb 1829. There may have been others.
Send me a Personal Message with your email address so that I can send you a photograph of the entries for Charles and Lucy.
Hope it clarifies a few things,
Gwynne
Transcribing the Bridgnorth (Shropshire) town census and other records.
http://www.chadwickg.freeserve.co.uk
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Hi,
Your Henry Hooper Smith who married Elizabeth Pardoe, March 31 1878 is of intererst as Elizabeth is the sister of my great grandmother, Mary Pardoe. I am also trying to sort out the family tree and would be glad to share what little I have with yo.
Cheers, Jane
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Hi Jane,
I would be gald to let you know what little info. I have. I know that Elizabeth was one of 8 children to Samual and Sarah nee Barton. I have childrens names and some birthdates if you want them.
regards
Pam
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Hi, I have the 8 DOBs but am hunting Anne Pardoe at the moment. We have conflisting stories in our family about her fate. She either emigrated to the States and died about 1873 or not. Thus she was either the cause of great grampa going to the States or else he ran away to sea. In any event he married her sister. Also have the story that she was engaged to his brother who died young. Why didn't I ask my Granny questions when I had the chance? How do you fit into things?
Jnae
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Hi,
Elizabeth Pardoe married my great grandfather Henry Hooper Smith. They had several children one was Ernest Beniah!! my grandfather. His daughter Kathleen was my mum.
let me know how you are doing
Pam
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Hi,
I knew about the marriage of Smith and Pardoe but not when or where or if there were children. I would love to have all the details if you could spare them.
Perhaps I can help you with some info as well?
Jane