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Research in Other Countries => Canada Lookup Request => Canada => Canada Lookup Requests Completed => Topic started by: M.T.H on Friday 09 February 07 18:12 GMT (UK)
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Hi Folks,
I have been searching for my GGrandfathers brother for quite some time now and until today, I have drawn a complete blank.
His name was Mark Corlis, he was born in Manchester Lancashire in 1881 and appears on the 1881 UK census as an 8 month old living with his family. After that there is no mention of him or his brother (Denis my ggrandfather) on any UK census returns, and there is no death cert for Mark, so it seemed as though they just disappeared....until today!! when thanks to the new online passenger lists, I found them!
They were sent out to Canada as Home Children on the SS Sardinia arriving in Quebec on the 29th April 1890 as part of a party under a Rev.R. Russell
http://tinyurl.com/ypo9zr
I would be really gratefull if someone could look and see if Mark and Denis appear on the 1891 (or later) Canadian census. I know that Denis returned to the UK in 1897, and subsequently emigrated to NZ but Mark remains a mystery.
Any help appreciated,
Many thanks,
Mick :)
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Try this site Mick !! ........ You'll be there for Ages !!
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~britishhomechildren/
Annie ;) ;)
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Great! Thankyou Annie,
I'm off to have a browse right now!
Cheers,
Mick ;)
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Hi Mick,
You can view the 1901 and 1911 Canadian Census here at www.automatedgenealogy.com I have had a quick peak, but not much luck in finding him.
Sometimes they gave them new names, which dosn't help. :(
Karen
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This is another great site to check out. Indiapaleale gave me this link and said that the people there were very helpful with her.
http://www.bifhsgo.ca/home_children_links.htm
Karen
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I found this site Mick ! :) ( sorry I'm only finding sites ! ..... I'm still looking for something concrete !! ::) ::) )
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?Edmonton/Edmonton.shtml
( This site defaults - so look for Migration & Emigration on the left index !! )
Annie :)
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Karen and Annie,
Many thanks for the links, some very interesting reading, I shall search the 1901 and 1911 census returns and see if I can find him.
Was there a census taken in Canada in 1891?
Sometimes they gave them new names, which dosn't help. :(
Just my luck! ;D
This is a new area of research for me so I'm not familiar with the available records, but I would imagine that there was a considerable ammount of paperwork involved, both in the UK and in Canada.
Thanks again for your help,
Mick :)
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Hi Mick !
I found this ... but there's no index that I can find !! ::) just the image .... !! .... and me eyes are going gozzy ! if anybody can help .... that would be terrific !! .... I believe this is THE ship .... so the boys should be on the manifest !! :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/018f/
Annie :)
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I've gone through the two censuses and tried so many variations, but haven't found a Mark....To add to the problem, occasionally the children were adopted,...Not saying he isn't in the censuses...just that I haven't found him yet... :)...will try more things...but not having much luck... :P J.J.
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Annie, went through them from the back ::) and of course they are on page 5....Listed 15 th and 16th...No extra information...just destination Montreal...
spelling Corless...
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Hi Annie,
Denis and Mark are on page 5 of the SS Sardinian that arrived April 29th.
Need to figure out who Rev. Russell is associated with and where the children went to when once he brought them over here.
Karen
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You are both VERY good girls !! ;D ;D Thank you .... I must have passed page 5 - I don't know how many times !! :)
"Rev. Rossalli's party to Montreal " ....... and not Rev Russell !! :-\ :-\ see - there's something else !!
A couple of ideas ..... Manchester Refuge Home ... and Salford Catholic Protection and Rescue Society .... now I can't find them either !! :P
I need a brain storm !!
Annie :)
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Still no luck on the 1901...will wait to see if Karen uncovers more...
LOL Karen :)...guess that's why site was lagging we were both in there!
annie, my brain sometimes explodes to mush...will that do?
Insert little icon with brain exploding here.... J.J.
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Hmm, Migky's gr-uncle Lewis Basset was a home child who was sent from Manchester. Micky has note where Lewis and his brother were in the care of Salford Boy's Home.
Karen
LOL, I noticed that too JJ
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P.s. re: 1901 yes tried just age...etc....so don't kill yourselves in there.... :P :P :P
It just came to me that when hubby's dad retired and sent for his birth cert. it had him down as Michelle... ( for Maxwell ?)
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Found this ...... but Mick...... lets see if we can get a hold of Migky and see what he did !! ::) ::)
tobydavison
21-02-2005, 12:53 PM
Dear all,
Apologies if this is rather late and possibly now insignificant (I have only just stumbled across this message list.)
Let me introduce myself, i am Toby Davison, recently appointed Archivist/Records Manager of the Boys and Girls Welfare Society, formerly the Manchester and Salford refuges. We are the organisation that owned the Crossley Home that you are all referring to.
A short history of the Society is available from our website at www.bgws.org.uk, however we have a limited amount of archive material available at present (we are working on that) which may be able to provide some more material on individual personnel.
I hope this is of some use to you, if I can help further please do not hesitate to contact me, all the details can be accessed via our website.
Kind Regards
Toby
Also this is the thread !! :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,149609.0.html
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Ok Annie ;D ;D
Here's some links - gives more on Reverend Robert ROSSALL in the last 2 - following these 2 and getting copies of documents may unearth info on Denis & Mark:
general
http://www.orphantrainriders.com/HomeChild/HomeResearch.html
http://ist.uwaterloo.ca/~marj/genealogy/children/queries.html
and here: we have the Reverend in full:
".....Sent to Rev. Robert ROSSALL at Montreal ......."
ANd this!!!
http://mikan3.archives.ca/pam/public_mikan/index.php?fuseaction=genitem.displayItem&lang=eng&rec_nbr=1964449&
and this!!!!
http://search-recherche.collectionscanada.ca/archives/searchResults.jsp?QueryText=rossall&PageNum=1&MaxDocs=-1&SortSpec=score+desc&Language=eng&Sources=mikan&QueryParser=lac_mikan&ResultCount=10
Cheers
AMBLY - roped in nicely to this by Annie ;D ;D
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Boy ! I'd love to see those letters !! .... ( and just as a matter of interest - I wonder how much he got paid ?? ??? ??? ??? )
What's the best way to get copies of those ? ... does anybody know ?
Annie :)
Where's Mick ?? ..... just like a man ........... they hang around and hang around - asking when dinner's going to be ready .... then they go missin' !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Does This one seem to indicate Rev Rossall got paid L11, 18shillings and 4pence?? in 1891
http://shrinkalink.com/8377
This one:
http://shrinkalink.com/8378
A. OATES, SALFORD. LIST OF CHILDREN SENT TO CANADA THIS YEAR & REPORTS OF CATHOLIC PROTECTION SOCIETY
File Part of: General correspondence
Date(s): 1890/11/24,1890/12/09
ANd this:
http://www.salforddiocese.org.uk/
http://www.churches-online.org.uk/salfordarchives/
Cheers
AMBLY
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http://shrinkalink.com/8380
This paper
"These Treasures of the Church of God” - Catholic Child Immigration
makes intersting background reading...........
Cheers
AMBLY
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Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !! woohoo ...... guess what ??
Are you ready ?? ........ tada ..................... !! ;D
World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918
Name: Mark Corliss
City: Not Stated
County: Ottawa
State: Ohio
Birth Date: 29 Jul 1880
Race: White
Roll: 1832626
DraftBoard: 0
I have seen the image ...... Mary Ellen Corliss - his sister - is his next of kin !! woohoo !! :)
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This is so cool!! ;D
Rootchat is the Best Place! ;D ;D Ancestors Lost & Found!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-perry.htm
Annie! this looks like where he was at when he registered!
Cheers
AMBLY ;D
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Blimey!!!
Annie,Karen,Ambly,JJ,
Wow! You guys!Brilliant!
I'm sorry that I had to go offline, but my goodness you've been busy, thankyou so much for all your hard work. :-*
I'm all excited now, I've gotta go follow some of those links that you've posted and Annie, that ww1 registration card is just incredible!! I can't quite believe it, and Mary Ellen too, amazing, where had she been I wonder?
I shall report back as soon as I've had a chance to take it all in.
Rootschat is fantastic!
Thankyou all again,
Mick :) :)
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Way to go Annie! Well done, everyone! This is exciting... ;D
Now he can be found in the U.S. censuses!
I was wondering why his attestaion papers never showed up, either....DUH!
J.J.
Where's Mick ?? ..... just like a man ........... they hang around and hang around - asking when dinner's going to be ready .... then they go missin' !!
p.s., annie, U kill me! :)
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Well Done Annie!!!
I have a found a Mark Corless in the 1910 US Census. He is listed as "hired help", born July 1880, living with the family of Abigail Dee in Madison Town, Conneticut. It has listed as his place of birth as Canada/French. So, not sure if this is him :-\ what do you think?
Karen
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Oops that was the 1900 US Census, not 1910 :-[
Karen
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Hi Karen !
I think that sounds really good !! ..... "hired help" ties up with being in the "program " doesn't it ?
Looking at the image .... his birthday is July 1880 and he says he came into the country in 1899 !!
and that sounds good to me !!!!
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I'm stunned by all of this fantastic information, thankyou soo much.This has demolished the biggest brickwall in my family history, and it throws up a lot more questions and possibilities.
The documents that Ambly has found sound very interesting indeed, I'd love to see them, I might be able to get copies, I'm not sure yet, I need to do a bit more reading as to how I go about it.
The WW1 registration card is a real revelation, the birth date is spot on as I have Marks birth cert, so it's definately him, incredible! ;) I also have Mary Ellen's birth cert (b.4th Feb1884- Prestwich Lancaster) if anything, she has been a bigger mystery than Mark, as her birth cert is all we have, so we knew that she existed but I've searched for her for years, and could find no reference to her anywhere. I wonder if she was in Canada, America or the UK, does it say on the document?
Can I view it online?
I'm really blown away guys, honest,
Mick :)
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Oooooh! I like the sound of it too!!
;D ;D
There are sometime records of Passengers into US from Canada aren't there?
Could this be a go?
Boston Passenger Lists, 1820-1943
Mark Corless
Into Boston, Massachusetts
Cheers
AMBLY
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There is a Mark Corless leaving Liverpool England, who arrived in Boston, MA in 1900. His age is 20, born England, but his last residence is listed as 107 Craig Street, Montreal, Canada.
Perhaps he went back with Denis, there wasn't much for him in England, so came to America of his own free will??
Mick, I looked at the Registration Card and it says his sister is England.
Karen
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My Ancestry is playin' silly beggars !! :o :o :o just when I need it most !!
:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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Karen! I like that one too!
You know, I wondered - his NOK is his sister in England, indicating they are in contact - and I wondered if she had not been sent away, or even if she had been - had they had been in contact all the while he was in "care" in Canada, and I thought it more unlikely than likely .....it makes much more sense to imagine he went back to England, found Mary Ellen again, and then stayed in touch after he went to US....????
Annie! You melted it! :o :P
Cheers
AMBLY
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Sounds good to me too !! :)
( The big A doesn't like it when I get too excited Ambly !! ;D ;D ;D )
OK ! I forgot ....... did the registration card say if he was joining up here or in England ?? ( only I've seen a lot of registration cards made out here but the guys have gone to fight for England !! )
Now we have to find his service record ::) ::)
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There is a Mark Corless leaving Liverpool England, who arrived in Boston, MA in 1900. His age is 20, born England, but his last residence is listed as 107 Craig Street, Montreal, Canada.
Perhaps he went back with Denis, there wasn't much for him in England, so came to America of his own free will??
Mick, I looked at the Registration Card and it says his sister is England.
Thanks Karen, it certainly could be him, the details do fit with what we know. :)
I'm not sure when Denis returned to the UK, he was certainly here in Dec 1897 (living and working on a farm in Suffolk) as he joined the Army (I have his attestation papers), he was 18years and 8 months old and had been living on the farm for 8 months, perhaps that's when he returned and picked up the same line of work that he had been doing in Canada, he went on to serve in the Boer war and WW1, got married and emigrated to NZ c.1920.
I'm suprised (but very pleased) that Mary Ellen is listed as Mark's NOK, and not Denis or perhaps their parents. Another family mystery maybe?
Mick :)
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I wonder if he went to war ....... ::) he enlisted September 6th 1918 !! ::)
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I wonder if he went to war ....... ::) he enlisted September 6th 1918 !! ::)
I doubt it Annie, it would have been all over by the time he got there, he would still have a service record though!
Wouldn't that be a great find?...
Mick :)
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I wonder if this is John .... remarried .... Mary Ellen kept home to look after the other children ??
1901
Mary E Corless 13 Daughter Preston Lancashire
RG13/ 3948 Folio 20 Page 32.
EDIT ........ IGNORE THIS !!
I was thinking Preston instead of Prestwich !! .... duh ! :P
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.....it makes much more sense to imagine he went back to England, found Mary Ellen again, and then stayed in touch after he went to US....????
Good point Ambly, thanks, I can imagine that contact during his time in 'care' would have been very difficult, if not impossible.The big question that arises is.....where was Mary Ellen living in the UK? It would seem that she was unmarried at that time so still a Corlis/Corliss/Corless, she might have fallen victim to bad transcribing somewhere down the line, but I've not been able to find her on the UK 1891 or 1901 census.
Mick :)
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You might want to check this out Mick .....
http://www.archives.gov/research/arc/topics/ww1.html
Annie :)
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Thanks Annie,
I'm going there now.......I may be some time! ;D ;D
Mick :)
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Hi Mick,
Do you know what happened to the parents of Denis, Mark and Mary Ellen?
Karen
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Hi Karen,
In a word,no! :-\
Their mother was Mary Corlis (nee Brophy) b.Halifax Yorkshire c1851 , this is from info on the 1881 Census, the only census on which the family appear together (RG11 4015/110 p20 - Howarth Street,Bradford,Manchester).I've not been able to find any BMD info for her.
Their father John Corlis b. Manchester c.1852, was a tailor (on all the birth certs). There is a John Corless/Carless on the 1901, 49 years old and a widow living as a boarder in Manchester, he is also a tailor,so is a likely candidate, but I can't be certain.
Mick :)
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Hmm, :-\
There is a John Corless who is a tailor b. c1856 Liverpool with a wife Annie, born c1863. There are other children, John B, Annie, Pollie and Florence. They are living in Great Crosby, Lancs.
Not sure if this is your man, but I seen Pollie and know that sometimes Pollie was a nick name for Mary?
RG12/2982/Folio 80/Page 38 1891 Census
Karen
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Thanks Karen,
I will certainly bear him in mind, as a 'possible', I'm not sure about the Liverpool connection, but you never know!
It's been great getting all of this information on the family that I thought I would never find, you guys are the best! I must sign off for this evening though (busy day tomorrow) ::)
I shall catch up with y'all later,
Thanks again for your help everyone,
Mick :) :)
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Hi Annie, Ambley, Karen and Mick. I am not sure how i can help ,but willing to try. I wrote of to Toby at the TOGETHER CHILDREN'S TRUST and received my great uncles recors of him and his brother. the records i received were as follows: 1) A contract you have to take out with them, this states that if for any reason you wish to remove a child . You will pay back to the children's home the sum of five shillins for every week the child has been in there care. plus any cloths and boots. A lot of money in 1899. 2) The children's home may do as they deem fit with the said children, ie remove from the home and send to work abroad without any further consent been asked for. 3) There is one other application form . This gives details of the child/children been admitted. It has who where there parents, where there last address was, what happened to there parents and why they are been asked to take in. Also who there guardians are.and for what reason they are applying to have them put into care. It also describes the condition of said child. Hight ,colour of hair/eyes and complexion.
I am not sure what if any help this is to you but wish you luck in your search and if i can help in any way, please feel free to contact me.
MIGKY ;)
http://ist.uwaterloo.ca/~marj/genealogy/children/Organizations/shaw.html
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Hi Migky,
Thankyou very much for the information about the records from the TOGETHER CHILDREN'S TRUST.The paperwork that you have certainly contains valuable family information, it would be wonderful if I could obtain the records for Mark and Denis.
I do have a couple of questions if I may,
1. Did you apply for the records by email? and did you have to prove your relationship to your great uncle?
2. How long did it take for the records to arrive? and what costs are involved?
Thanks, I appreciate your help :)
I have spent the day with my elderly mum, she is as amazed and moved by the findings as I am, and wants me to pass on her sincere thanks to everyone who has helped to find this lost part of our family history. So a big THANKYOU to you all from my Mum! :-*
Mick ;)
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Oh my ! You think this could be Mary ? ???
1901
39 Dacre ? Street Middlesbrough
Mary Corlis 50 Head Middlesbro Yorkshire Charwoman
RG13/4574 Folio 71 Page 15.
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Gosh Annie! I don't know!
Is her birthplace Middlesbrough? As far as I know, and according to the 1881, my Mary Corlis/Corliss/Corless was born in Halifax. Is she a widow? who else is living with her?
The age is about right, Mary was born c.1850.
Sorry about all the questions, but I don't have access to the big 'A' at the moment :-\ ::)
Mick ;)
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Sorry .... yes ! she's a widow !
She was alone .... she could have gone back to Yorkshire ! :-\ enumerator could have written Middlesborough because she was living there ! :-\ ..... might be worth keeping on the back burner !
Annie
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Sorry .... yes ! she's a widow !
She was alone .... she could have gone back to Yorkshire ! :-\ enumerator could have written Middlesborough because she was living there ! :-\ ..... might be worth keeping on the back burner !
Yes, I'll definately make a note of the details, you never know! Thanks Annie.
As it's always nice to put a face to a name, this is the only pic that we have of Denis and his wife Charlotte (my GGrandparents), taken (I think), just prior to their leaving to live in NZ c.1920.
Mick :)
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Isn't it funny how we look for children - and then we see a picture of a man with his chest emblazoned with medals !!
Thanks for showing us Mick ......... looks like he turned out to be a brave man ! what a nice looking couple !!
Annie :)
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What a great photo! Thanks for sharing, Mick! I hope he & Mark had a wonderful life, after the childhood trauma...Charlotte is absolutely lovely, isn't she? J.J.
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Thanks for showing us Mick ......... looks like he turned out to be a brave man ! what a nice looking couple !!
What a great photo! Thanks for sharing, Mick! I hope he & Mark had a wonderful life, after the childhood trauma...Charlotte is absolutely lovely, isn't she? J.J.
Awww, thanks guys! such kind comments :-*
I've always thought that Charlotte was a really pretty lady, how I would of loved to have met them both. Sadly, very little information about them has come down through the family,which is a great shame, still ,I guess that I am lucky to have such a nice photo of them. They do have quite a lot of descendents in NZ and I did make contact with one of them way back when, but they don't seem interested in the family history, they didn't even know who Denis and Charlotte were until I told them!!! Kinda sad really :'(
It's not all doom and gloom, I do look quite like Denis, I've got a lot more hair though and a lot less medals ;D
Mick ;)
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Kinda sad really
Naw...you've honoured them with your thoughful searches...not everyone is enthusiastic about all this...That's why we have each other, here on rootschat...we get it!
;) right?
warmest hugs to all from Chilly middle Canada...J.J.
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Kinda sad really
Naw...you've honoured them with your thoughful searches...not everyone is enthusiastic about all this...That's why we have each other, here on rootschat...we get it!
;) right?
warmest hugs to all from Chilly middle Canada...J.J.
Thanks JJ :)
I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the good people here on RootsChat, thank goodness for such a great community of like minded souls.
Hugs reciprocated from sleepy Somerset,
Mick ;)
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ANd here in Warm, not quite suppertime in NZ ;D yes, thanks Mick for the Photo, it is a lovely thing for you to have, especially since you have a resemblance to Denis (loved your self portrait !) And I was curious: was Mark's description on his WW1 US Reg card any resemblance too ?
Mick!
A couple of years ago on an old topic :o there was mention:
"....a death of Mary Corless at Garstang(Lancashire) aged 35 died Dec qtr 1885 Garstang 8e 458 ....
Wondered if this one ever checked or perhaps discounted for being the mother?
Cheers ;D
AMBLY
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And I was curious: was Mark's description on his WW1 US Reg card any resemblance too ?
Not so much to me, but certainly to Denis!
Mark's description from his registration card;
Height - Short
Build - Medium
Eyes - Light
Hair - Dark
His height is definately significant. When Denis joined the army in 1897, it is noted on his attestation papers that he had applied to join the regular army (earlier the same day) but was turned down because he was too short!!! His height was given as 5 foot 3 inches so they signed him up for the Militia and he spent the next 49 days in training, after which they 'allowed' him into the regulars and within a month he was on his way to the Boer war.
Other than his height, Denis is described as having;
Light grey eyes and dark brown hair. So a couple more similarities to Mark ;)
The Corlis/Corless family are on my mums side (which is why she is so excited by the news), but the 'short' gene didn't come my way, I'm 6 foot 3!! ;D ;D
"....a death of Mary Corless at Garstang(Lancashire) aged 35 died Dec qtr 1885 Garstang 8e 458 ....
Wondered if this one ever checked or perhaps discounted for being the mother?
Thanks Ambly, I thought this sounded familiar, so I checked my records and I do have those details, but we didn't send off for the cert because without anything else to go on at the time it might have been someone else entirely. In light of all of the great stuff you guys have found, I now think that it's quite probable that this IS Mary. I'm definately going to persue the records from the Together Childrens Trust, if they are anything as detailed as the reports Migky got, then they should confirm Mary's death and possibly her address, and if it tally's up, I'll definately order the cert.
No sign of Migky yet, I'll leave it a couple of days and if I haven't heard from him, I'll drop him a PM.
Cheers,
Mick ;)
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Thanks for that Mick - nice to see the 'personal descriptions which put 'flesh on the bones' so to speak - And I can almost picture you now too - might even recognise you if I walked down yr street ;D ;D ;D
This has been such a great topic to be part of !
I'm still smiling ;D at all the great info which has been winkled out,
I - we all, I'm sure - look forward with bated breath to seeing what comes next.
Cheers 8)
Anne
AMBLY
PS: Isn't it funny - the picture of Denis & Charlotte - I thought they both looked tall and lean, the photo makes him look much taller!
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Denis looks like that Attorney guy that was in the Godfather ;D ;D ..... what was his name ?? ....
( my "oldtimers " just kicked in !! ::) ::) ::) )
Annie :)
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Hi guys,
This has been such a great topic to be part of !
I'm still smiling ;D at all the great info which has been winkled out,
I - we all, I'm sure - look forward with bated breath to seeing what comes next.
I certainly would never have got this much superb info without all of your kind help, rest assured that if I do get those records, you guys will be the first to know (after my mum) ;D
As for recognising me in the street, I doubt it would be too hard, I'm pretty difficult to miss! ;D ;D
PS: Isn't it funny - the picture of Denis & Charlotte - I thought they both looked tall and lean, the photo makes him look much taller!
We think that's why Denis is perched on the side of the chair, if they were standing, Charlotte would probably be a lot taller than him. ;)
Denis looks like that Attorney guy that was in the Godfather ;D ;D ..... what was his name ?? ....
I'm not sure who that might be.....I'm curious now so I'm off to try and find a pic to compare.
I'll keep y'all posted,
Mick ;)
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Robert Duvall...yeah, i can see what you mean...
http://www.blockbuster.co.yu/pictures/men/duvall_robert.gif
Oooops ...talk about about "off topic" hahah... J.
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Hi Mick,
Great picture, thanks for sharing with us.
I chatted with Migky in the chat room this morning about your last message and he said he would send off a pm to you.
Please do keep us posted with what ever information you find.
Karen
PS Yes, he does look like Robert Duvall :)
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Ahh yes! Robert Duvall, I can see the resemblance too! 8)
I'm sure we won't get our wrists slapped for going 'off topic' just this once and if we do I'll get Denis to send the boys 'round..... ;D ;D
Thanks Karen for the update re Migky, as soon as I know what's what I will be sending for those records.
Mick ;)
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It's o.k. Mick...we always go off-topic when Annie's around :-X
oh, what's that at my throat? :P
just kidding...she's the best....:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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Boy ! .... I get blamed for everything around here !! :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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Yes, mostly for solving umpteen dozens of queries a day... ;D ;D ;D
J.J.
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I agree with you J.J., Annie is wonderful and has helped me out loads of times in the past, but hey, I think that you're all brilliant!!. ;)
I've had a most informative PM from Migky (thanks pal) and shortly I'm going to draft an email to send to Toby at the Together Trust to get the ball rolling and hopefully get cpoies of the records.
The news about Denis, Mark and Mary Ellen has travelled the globe, my mum telephoned her brother in Australia to tell him, he is also really excited by the findings and is another one who has his fingers (and everything else) crossed that the records will have survived the years. They never knew their grandparents as they had emigrated before either my mum or her two brothers were born, it really does mean an awful lot to them.
I've been looking at the passenger list of SS Kansas of Feb 1900 from Liverpool to Boston and I'm convinced that it is Mark, moreover I reckon there are a couple of clues which could aid my research that I might have overlooked at first glance.
On the top of the page, against the first entry, it gives the chap's occupation as Foreman Cattleman (I'm pretty sure it says Cattleman), on every entry under that (including Mark's) the occupation is given a cattleman. It looks to me like they are a party travelling together, Mark is the only one who was born in England, of the rest, the majority are American or Canadian born.
One of the column headings asks the question - Whether ever before in the United States and if so when and where? All of them answer Boston 4/1/1900, so I wonder if they all travelled to the UK from Boston and then returned just over a month later, but why? I could understand it if perhaps a foreman had come to the UK to recruit men for work, but due to the birthplace of the majority, that doesn't really pan out. ???
There is also the question -Whether under contract to labor in the USA, all of them answer 'working as cattlemen'
Also they are all heading to different destinations in the USA, except for Mark and the chap directly beneath him on the manifest, who were both going to Craig Street in Montreal albeit a few numbers apart.
I'm not really sure what all this means, but a party travelling together does seem likely. I would welcome any thoughts or opinions.
Gosh, I've rambled on :P My desk is covered with bits of paper with notes scribbled here and there and there are post-it's stuck on my monitor (sound familiar anyone? ;D ) I really must get my act together and make a start on that email.
Onwards ever onwards eh?
Mick ;)
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Mick !
I found 3 more manifests with the Foreman Cattleman on ......... looks like he was going back and forth picking up "cowboys " ....
wonder if there was a ranch that he hired men for ....... I can't figure it out ! ::)
Just thought I'd mention it !!
Annie :) :)
PS Wonder if they all at one time or another - were boys at the Refuge !! :-\ either that or they were smugglers ..... ;D ;D wouldn't that be exciting ?? though they nearly all had less than $30 !!
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Hi Mick,
There is no available 1891 census for Canada. Only 1881, 1901 and 1911. There is also an 1851 census which is available at the Canadian Archives (not indexed) and a 1906 census for Alberta. That's the lot!
Dorothy
Ottawa
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Hi Dorothy,
There is an 1841 (some parts), 1851, 1861, 1871 (Ontario), 1881, 1891, 1901, 1906 (Prairies Only) and 1911 Census available. Some are on-line and indexed, while others you have to do the good old fashion way and look at them on mircofilm :)
Karen
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I found 3 more manifests with the Foreman Cattleman on ......... looks like he was going back and forth picking up "cowboys " ....
wonder if there was a ranch that he hired men for ....... I can't figure it out ! ::)
Just thought I'd mention it !!
Thanks Annie!
Cowboy smugglers, now there's a thought! ;D
I think it's quite likely that the foreman was travelling back and forth recruiting, I shall have to do some digging and see what I can find. I think I shall trawl the classifieds in the Times to see if there are any clues there.
Will keep you posted,
Cheers,
Mick ;)
I've just sent an email to the Together Trust btw :)
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Hi Mick,
Here's a link to the Montreal Directory. You can search by street, so perhaps look for 107 Craig St. The site starts off in French, but then goes to English.
http://bibnum2.bnquebec.ca/bna/lovell/index.html
Glad Micky got the pm to you, he's a good boy that Micky. His wife has taught him well ;)
Maybe we could pick out a few of the men from the ship manifest and see if we can follow their trails (cowboy talk ;D) to see what they were up too. :-\
I agree with you J.J., Annie is wonderful I'll second that!!
Karen
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Great, thanks Karen!
I shall go and check it out.
I did do an image search earlier for Craig Street and found some old photo's, I also discovered that it's now called Sainte-Antoine Steet.
Yes it would be interesting to follow some of those 'cowboys' to see where they ended up, trouble is, I don't have access to the US census :-\
Glad Micky got the pm to you, he's a good boy that Micky. His wife has taught him well ;)
Yes, he's been a great help. Where would us blokes be without the good women in our lives?, hmmmm.... in the pub probably! ;D ::)
Cheers,
Mick ;)
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All you need to do is "steer" us in the right direction .............. ::) ( more cowboy talk !! ;D )
I tried that site Karen and I got a Craig St even .... but then I couldn't get the image bigger and was messing with it and lost it ... I threw up my hands .... so it's your turn Mr Hippy - I give in !! :P :P :P :P
Annie :)
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I tried that site Karen and I got a Craig St even .... but then I couldn't get the image bigger and was messing with it and lost it ... I threw up my hands .... so it's your turn Mr Hippy - I give in !! :P :P :P :P
;D ;D
At least you got a bit further than I have!To my eternal shame I'm still struggling with the menus ::). I tried Google translate, but it only translates the bit under the main pic.
Mick :)
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CHILD CARE ORGANISATIONS A
The following is a list of organisations which have been involved in the care of children. The list is not exhaustive and other organisations are listed in the "Charities Digest" (published by The Family Welfare Association) and The Social Services Year Book (published by Longman's). Both books should be available in your local Reference Library.
If the organisation you are looking for is no longer in existence or has amalgamated with another organisation the Reference Library or the Records Office of its local area may be able to help you find some information.
Images removed as it may infringe copy rights
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Hi Migky....Would you be so kind as to copy & paste & add the above and also the contacts from the other entry to a reply on the Home Children Resources child board...here's the link:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,148045.0.html
Thanks much as I'm sure it will be appreciated now that you've done the legwork to find these...
Hi, Karen!!!
I think you are ALL wonderful!!!
Just checking something else out that's caught my eye...be back with some questions for you from another query...J.J.
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Was just looking through the queries for home children to add to the list and saw one whom I thought was adopted by a "Sharmon" family...but he was just working for them... Just a coincidence on the similar sounding name, I guess...I had wondered if there might be a connection to the name Sharman above...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,98725.0.html....
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Hi Folks,
I've solved the mystery of the cattlemen, they were escorting livestock across the Atlantic!
Cheers,
Mick ;)
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A quick update.....
I've just had a reply from the Together Trust.
Denis and Mark weren't in any of the homes run by the Manchester and Salford Boys and Girls Refuges.They didn't send children to Montreal.
The Salford Catholic Protection and Rescue Society, that Rev. Rossall was involved with, were a seperate organisation.
So, back to the drawing board! ::)
Genealogy eh?, don't you just love it?!! ;D ;D
Will keep you posted if I get any further info.
Cheers,
Mick ;)
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Just found this...I hope it is still valid? Let us know if it is and I'll add it to the British home children resources sub-board...
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/LANCSGEN/2007-01/1170082942
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This has phone and fax as well...
http://www.csci.org.uk/registeredservicesdirectory/RSSearchDetail.asp?ID=0000048376&Type=
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Nice one! Thanks J.J.
I will get in touch with them and see what they say.
I googled the address and found that the Catholic Children's Rescue Society (Salford) have their own website;
http://www.ccrsorg.co.uk/index.php
Cheers,
Mick :)
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Hi,
About 10 days ago I posted a message to Rootschat concerning British Home Children and through my own fault it wasn't posted. That'll teach me to do things late in the evening! :-[
I have listed a website below.
http://www.orphantrainriders.com/HomeChild/HomeIndex.html
Please take the time to read through it and click on all the links. The letters from Home Children posted by their descendants are more than touching. Also, on the opening page you will notice the name 'John Sayers - Requests for Records'. A busy man, to be sure, but a helpful one. It worked for me. My maternal grandmother was a Home Child who came to Quebec, Canada, in 1892 aboard the Circassian with Father Seddon's group.
Try writing him.
Dorothy
Ottawa
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Many thanks Dorothy,
Interesting to hear that you are a descendent of a home child and that you managed to locate her records, I will make a note Mr Sayer's contact details.
I was searching the Canadian Archives online earlier today, and think that I might have found Mary Ellen in Canada!!! :) :)
There is this death index (bottom of page), note - my Mary Ellen was born in 1884.
http://tinyurl.com/ypnx9e
and this entry in 1913-1925 looks interesting too...
http://tinyurl.com/2htjbq
Does anyone have any idea what this second document might be?
Thanks,
Mick :)
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Looks like a property transaction, Mick... You can send for a copy for the details...and good for you to find her! Nice detective work!
MacDougall may have been a landsman for the Railway...buying up property in
speculation of the railway making the site popular. J.J.
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Hi J.J.
I thought it was her, but now I'm not so sure.......
I just did another search of the online archives, this time with only the surname and I got this hit........
http://tinyurl.com/342rs8
Hmmm......
Mick :)
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A little blurb about them here, and I'm sure you can find out more if you
need to ;D
I knew about them purchasing land and then reselling it ( at a premium, mind you...Look! the railway is nearby ;) )
excerpt: Lacking land grants the GTP, through the Town and Development Company, purchased land along the main line and developed "towns in precise patterns, at a distance of not under seven miles or more than fifteen miles from each other.
http://railways-atlas.tapor.ualberta.ca/cocoon/atlas/Chapters-9-1/
ooops, sorry we must have put our posts up at the same time, I missed it!
awe....too bad....but look at what a good searcher you are, now!
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ooops, sorry we must have put our posts up at the same time, I missed it!
awe....too bad....but look at what a good searcher you are, now!
;D ;D
Maybe Richard is another brother..........maybe he's her son?
Maybe I'm clutching at straws here? ;D
Mick ;)
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You're welcome, Mick.
The two URLs you mentioned are interesting. Why don't you write the Archives and see if you can get mor information on the sale of that property to M.E. Corless. It's certainly worth a try.
Keep the list posted as to what you find out.
Best of luck with your research! :)
Dorothy
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Keep the list posted as to what you find out.
Best of luck with your research! :)
Dorothy
Thanks Dorothy,
I've sent an email to the Salford Catholic Children's Rescue Society to ask if they have an archive, it might be useful for anyone else who is researching home children from Manchester/Salford. I have a feeling that they won't hold any records though.... :(
I will definately post an update if I find out any new information. :)
Cheers,
Mick ;)
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Not sure if you had this one...and too lazy to review the whole query ;D
http://tinyurl.com/2kfhpp http://tinyurl.com/2nfxgg http://tinyurl.com/2nfxgg
http://tinyurl.com/2qarsb http://tinyurl.com/yva8k2 http://tinyurl.com/2m62bt
Is this the same Rossall, I wonder....getting paid...?
http://tinyurl.com/33q6ek
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Not sure if you had this one...and too lazy to review the whole query ;D
Yep! Got them thanks J.J. , Ambly had posted them earlier on... ;)
Cheers,
Mick :)
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Hello Mick,
I just fell upon this thread while starting a search of my own and so this may be already covered, but I will repeat just in case it is a new lead.
http://www.bifhsgo.ca/newSurnameTable.htm#goD
This link is the British Isles Family History Society of Greater Ottowa and there is a member who is listing an interest in the name of CORLESS of Lancashire
I hope it helps someone, if not you.
Connie
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Hi, Connie...welcome to rootschat...How nice of you to use your first posting to try and help someone! J.J.
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Hi Connie,
Welcome from me also!
Thankyou very much for the information, I shall send an email off to the Corless researcher and hope that she might have some information on my Corless family.
Fingers crossed!
Will post an update if I get any news.
Cheers,
Mick :)
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Ooh Thank you! I don't think I have ever conversed with an aristocrat before! And Mick, I just hope it helps.
Perhaps I should add my Child Migrant names to the list now as well. It was thanks to Genes Reunited that I discovered the great census gap in one line of my research came about because at least one child was shipped to Canada. Since my grandmother did not go to Canada I had no idea that some of her siblings did. I am now in correspondence with the descendents of the one child and we now think that three others also were sent.
A warning to others - the family has no Roman Catholic connections either before or since but the London family lost their father to illness leaving a young widow and seven small children. The baby boy somehow was placed in a London Roman Catholic boys home until he was shipped to a Canadian seminary at the age of 10 - to become a priest. The American descendents have the family myth that the UK family had chosen to send him to Canada as the mother wanted him to become a priest. They even believed that she was angry when he chose not to become a priest or even to follow any formal religion. I was passed the story in the UK that my grandmother once had a brother who had joined 'the' gold rush. Years ago I made a failed attempt at divining which gold rush!
So...... keep all options open in your mind! You just never know!
Now we believe that three more sisters perhaps went to Canada with Maria Rye because there are some indexes that have good matches for names and dates. My American contacts are waiting to hear what the Canadian archives will send.
The family is named GAY and the girls are CHARLOTTE ALICE, ELIZABETH and KATE, born in 1869, 1873 and 1875 in London. We think we can see Charlotte married to a WAITE in later Canadian censuses but so far no sightings of the other two.
I am not at this stage asking for help as we may get information from the Archives so I was just checking out all the Home Children websites when I tripped over Mick and his names.
Connie
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Connie, you will want to start up a new thread for yourself...as your three children are likely the ones listed here...( just put in surname only and all 3 are on the same page...)
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/02011003_e.html
two came on the same ship, same year...
This site will eventually help others looking for the same children! As you can see there are at least a dozen people who will jump on the case for you...
all the best, J.J.
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A warning to others - the family has no Roman Catholic connections either before or since but the London family lost their father to illness leaving a young widow and seven small children. The baby boy somehow was placed in a London Roman Catholic boys home until he was shipped to a Canadian seminary at the age of 10 - to become a priest.
Thankyou Connie,
Mark and Denis not being Catholic is something that I had considered. I've not been able to find any other Catholic links to the family but on Denis's army attestation papers, under the heading Religion, Church of England has been entered then crossed-out and Roman Catholic put in it's place! To make matters more confusing,Denis is buried in a Presbytarian cemetery ??? ::)
As J.J. has said, you should consider starting a thread for your home children, I've been amazed at all of the great help that I've had.
Cheers,
Mick :)
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Thank you J.J. and Mick.
I will start my own thread up now.
Connie
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Hi folks,
At last I have an update! :) There is very good news and some not so good news.....
Good news first;
I've had a reply from the CCRS regarding Denis and Mark.
This is what they told me, quote:- We do hold some records relating to the children who were sent to Canada and Australia and some reports regarding the follow-up visits made. The information you gave us was detailed enough for us to find records relating to Denis and Mark Corless. They are named in two of the “Chaplain’s visitation reports” and details where they were placed and how they were managing. We can photocopy this information for you, plus the full visitation reports which are quite detailed and make fascinating reading.
How fantastic is that?
Then came the bad news :- Our charge for searching our archives for this information plus the cost of copying and forwarding the information to you is £50. :o :o :o
I'm stunned and a bit shocked. There is no way that I can afford that sort of money, at least not in the forseeable future.
I wonder how they can justify this fee? Is it a record? :P
I want to write back to them and take them to task about it, but I don't want to risk the chance of not being able to get these documents at all.
Any thoughts or ideas appreciated,
Cheers,
Mick :)
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Oh Mick, that really just sucks. I know Micky and Jake have been told the records would cost the 50 GBP as well. I don't understand how they can charge that much. It's a bitter topic when it come to the amount they charge, sure they can charge a fee, but I think that it a ridiculous amount.
But the good thing like you say is that they do have something on them instead of just saying send us your 50 GBP and we'll check ::)
Maybe someone else who has gotten records, such as Indipaleale, might have an idea? I think she has about 7 BHC.
Karen
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Hi Mick !
Wonder if you could find out if somebody actually went there - if the price would still be the same ? :-\
If they brought down the price - maybe we could get somebody to go and pick them up !
Annie :)
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Oh Mick, that really just sucks. I know Micky and Jake have been told the records would cost the 50 GBP as well. I don't understand how they can charge that much. It's a bitter topic when it come to the amount they charge, sure they can charge a fee, but I think that it a ridiculous amount.
Hi Karen,
Yeah! It definately sucks! :-\
There was also a p.s. that I forgot to mention. I gave them all the details that we had to help them identify the boys, including the names of Rev Rossall, and Sisters Fidelis and Humiliana. This was the P.s.;
PS. We are also seeing if we have any information on Sisters Fidelis and Humiliana as they belonged to the order of nuns who are still connected to us here at CCRS
How kind, I wonder how much they will want to charge me for this info that I didn't even ask for?
I want to warn everyone about these outragous charges, I feel quite deflated.
Ho hum, family history huh? ::)
Mick ;)
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Hi Mick !
Wonder if you could find out if somebody actually went there - if the price would still be the same ? :-\
If they brought down the price - maybe we could get somebody to go and pick them up !
Hiya Annie,
I don't know if it would be possible, from what I can gather the records are in Salford.
I've been researching family (but mostly) military history for years and I have never encountered such a fee for any documents that I've ordered from archives, the most I've ever paid was ten quid, and for that I was sent 160 pages!!!
Maybe I've just been lucky....
Cheers,
Mick ;)
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Thank you J.J. and Mick.
I will start my own thread up now.
Connie
Good on you Connie!
Best of luck,
Mick :)
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Mick I am just disgusted to hear about the price being charged...It should match the amount of work involved, printing and paper...I could see a quarter of the price, maybe half at the very most.
Seems you are being charged according to the "LSD" or law of supply and demand...
or as I'd make the acronym...
LOUSY STINKIN" DEAL!!!!!!!!!! :P :P :P :P :P
J.J.
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Mick I am just disgusted to hear about the price being charged...It should match the amount of work involved, printing and paper...I could see a quarter of the price, maybe half at the very most.
Seems you are being charged according to the "LSD" orlaw of supply and demand...
or as I'd make the acronym...
LOUSY STINKIN" DEAL!!!!!!!!!! :P :P :P :P :P
;D ;D
Thanks for that J.J. !
I agree that a quarter or perhaps half the fee (At a push) would be reasonable, as it is, it just smacks of money grabbing. >:(
When you look at all of the kindness demonstrated here at Rootschat every day, and the lengths that some folks will go to to help others, it makes this charge seem even more extortionate.
Oh gosh, I could moan for England at the moment! ;D
I'm not gonna give up on getting these records though....where there's a will there's a way and all that....
Cheers,
Mick :)
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Hi Mick,
I was talking with Migky this morning and he too was told that it would 50 GBP for the records. Migky then phoned the place and talked to them directly and they gave him a price and said it would be 25GBP max, so maybe you could call them and see what they say?
Karen
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Thanks Karen :)
It looks like a phone call is the way forward then?
I have another email to them in the pipeline and if I don't get any joy from that they will be getting a call....
I should have calmed down enough by then!! ;D
Cheers,
Mick :)
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Hi folks,
I've had another reply from the CCRS, it's has left me more gobsmacked than the first!!
I doubt that a telephone call is going to make any difference now.....I would have been happy to make a donation but this is a bit much!
Quote: We are a charity and rely heavily on the donations we receive to enable us to do the work we do. The fees we charge are only a small contribution towards the actual cost involved in terms of time spent by paid staff in the careful checking and collating of records, be they adoption, fostering, residential or emigration records. Obviously the fee would also apply if someone were to visit us in person, though we would keep it at £50 despite the extra time involved.
They wouldn't even tell me where the boys were placed!!
Charity my a***!!
Mick :-\
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Oh my Friend ..... that is such a disappointment after all that !! ::) ::)
I can't believe they would say 50 quid is a donation !! ......... but I suppose I've been away from the country too long !!
But as they say .... there's more than one way to skin a cat ! ..... we'll do it somehow .... I know how much it means to you and your MUM !!
Relax ... take it easy .... don't stress over it OK??
Annie :)
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here's my answer to that...having been a volunteer for a good deal of my life...which has stopped recently due an accumulation of similar circumstances, actually...
I question...what on this God's earth is someone doing getting paid at a place of charity, anyway...???
(Is there a smiley spitting on the ground to add in here...?)
I could go on, ( & on & on & on) but I think we all know where this is going...
Cyber hugs...J.J.
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Thanks guys!
To think that they must have already seen and read the documents and that they are prepared to offer me nothing more than "We hold some detailed records on these boys etc etc" is a bit uncharitable imho.
Anyways,rant over.
Hugs reciprocated, feeling calmer...... ;)
Mick :)
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The thing that gets my goat is all these children that were sent here and were treated poorly, where they "bleep" were they then with their charity work??
Karen
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The thing that gets my goat is all these children that were sent here and were treated poorly, where they "bleep" were they then with their charity work??
Karen
Hi Karen,
I'm reading the book Empty Cradles by Margaret Humphreys, it sure goes some way to answering that question!!
It's an incredibly sad and distressing read........ :'(
Mick