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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham => England => Durham Lookup Requests => Topic started by: petey22 on Thursday 01 February 07 14:15 GMT (UK)
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hi all :)
I'm quite new to geneology and have become hoplessly stuck on my mothers side of the family and was hoping someone could give me a few pointers to kick-start my research. All I have is a bad/unreadable copy of my grandmothers birth certificate with the date missing ??!!?? so here is what I have so far
Catherine ( jane ?) Bell,born 29-8-1921 Easington,wingate,County of Durham, registered 5-10-1921,
parents Armstrong Bell (stonerman in coalmine)and Elizabeth jane Bell formerly Carr, 131 middle street, Beakhall, Bolling. Brothers and sisters of Catherine,Robert,Olive and James Bell. Not a lot to go on ( for me ) but for expierienced searchers, hopefully enough.
I'd appreciate any tips on how to go further. Thanks in advance and anticipation
Pete Rogers
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If you go to
www.durham.gov.uk
follow the links to online services and then registrars certificate you can search the indexes for the marriage of Armstrong to Elizabeth. It was in 1919 and you can order the certificate online.
The marriage cert will give their ages and both their father's names which will help you get back further.
Hope this helps
Susan :)
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There is an Armstrong Bell aged 6 on the 1901 census who might be yours he was born in Ryton and his parents are Robert and Mary. If you think it might be him I can post the details.
Do you have any idea where Beakhall Bolling is? ???
I've tried googling but can't find it. Lots of Elizabeth Carrs on the 1901 and none of the from Beakhall ;D Her father's name from the marriage cert, if you don't already know it, will help to narrow the search
Susan
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Hi Susan
looking again, it seems to be Blackhall Bolling??., and yep, Armstrong Bell is from the Birth certificate. It could well be my Armstrong Bell on the 1901 census as it ties in with age and first born catherine 1921 making him around 26 years old, so i'd love the details. I do know that they move to Hendon Middlesex at some point in time.
Thanks for the link for the Marriage certificate, I'll be ordering that asap
all the best
Pete ;D
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RG13/4765 folio 164 page 12 Ryton Woodside Ryton
Robert Bell head marr 37 coal hewer North'd Seaton Delaval
Mary Bell wife marr 30 " " "
Thomas son 10 Durham Felling
Margaret daur 8 " "
Armstrong son 6 Durham Ryton
Mary daur 3 " "
Alice daur 2 " "
There is another Armstrong Bell in County Durham on the 1901 but he was born in about 1880. Hopefully the one I've given you will be the right one, the marriage cert will confirm (or not ;D ).
I know of a Blackhall but Bolling is a mystery to me. I'll have another look for Elizabeth but I think you'll need the marriage cert for her father's name.
Susan
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Could it have been written "Blackhall Colliery"?
Alexas
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Hi Alexas :)
yes !!! of course it is, why didnt I think of that? did a google search and found photos and everything,,,,,,, and there is a Middlestreet !!!!!
Brilliant, thanks a lot
all the best
Pete
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dear all,
I have Robert Bell c1864 and Mary Bell (nee Cole)c1870 married 1889 Gateshead, Durham in the 1891 and the 1901 census. In 1901 with children: Thomas 1891, Margret 1893, Armstrong 1895 (my Gt. grandfather), Mary Eliz 1898 and Alice L 1901.
In 1911 everything seems to have been turned upside down :o
Robert seems to have remarried to a Frances Hooks? gained 2 sons William Hooks and James Hooks and daughter Rosa Hooks (previous marriage?). Children Margret, Armstrong and Elizabeth are still there with additional son Robert Bell 3 years old. There is also an Edwin Bell grandson, 3 months?
Can anyone help me explain this second marriage and where grandson Edwin comes from ???
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Frances Jane Hooks
same page
Robert Bell
Mar qtr 1907 Gateshead RD
Volume 10a Page 1327
Have you looked for a death of his first wife Mary?
The grandson Edwin Bell could be the son of Margaret Bell or did Thomas Bell son of Robert marry?
You could check GRO indexes to see if there’s a maiden name on his birth record if it’s left blank that would indicate illegimate
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some info re Catherine re previous post
SS
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=895995.msg7708351#msg7708351
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On checking freeBMD I get 2 results when giving a yob as 1870.
Deaths Mar 1905
Bell Mary 34 Durham 10a 272
BELL Mary Ann 34 Sunderland 10a 390
I am thinking the best option is the first one? (In 1901 she is at Black Row, Woodside, Ryton)
Also, seeing as Robert and Jane Hooks have son Robert Bell c1908 then the son Robert Bell c1889 of Robert and and Mary Cole must die at some point and seeing that he is on the 1891 census and not on the 1901 census somewhere there in between ::)
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1891 census--Woodside, Ryton Woodside, Gateshead, Durham
William Hooks Head Married 47 Coke drawer b Castle Acre, Norfolk
Frances J Hooks Wife 27 b Elswick, Northumberland
William E A Hooks Son 2 - b Lewisham, Kent
Josephine B Hooks Daughter 0 b Woodside, Durham
ALEXANDER, WILLIAM ERNEST -
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in LEWISHAM Volume 01D Page 1093
HOOKS, JOSEPHFINE BLANCHE ALEXANDER
GRO Reference: 1890 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 979
HOOKS, JAMES SAMUEL ALEXANDER
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 982
HOOKS, NORA ISABELLA ALEXANDER
GRO Reference: 1899 D Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1031
SS
1901 census
William Hooks Head Married 60 Labourer in coke yard b Norfolk
Frances J Hooks Wife 36 b Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland
William E Hooks Son 13 School b Durham
Josephine Hooks Daughter - 11 School b Woodside, Durham
James S Hooks Son 9 School b Woodside, Durham
Nora J Hooks Daughter 1 - b Crawcrook, Durham
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ALEXANDER, FRANCES JANET SIMPSON
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 32
BELL, FRANCES JANET aged 74
GRO Reference: 1937 M Quarter in NORTHUMBERLAND WEST Volume 10B Page 492
Frances appears with son Robert in 1921 census.
Robert Ernest Bell b 28 Apr 1908 d age 63 death registered Jun qtr 1971 Teesside South RD
Volume 1b Page 1883
Robert appears with this dob in 1939, with wife & son.
SS
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ALEXANDER, FRANCES JANET SIMPSON
GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 32
BELL, FRANCES JANET aged 74
GRO Reference: 1937 M Quarter in NORTHUMBERLAND WEST Volume 10B Page 492
Frances appears with son Robert in 1921 census.
Robert Ernest Bell b 28 Apr 1908 d age 63 death registered Jun qtr 1971 Teesside South RD
Volume 1b Page 1883
Robert appears with this dob in 1939, with wife & son.
Didn’t find Robert’s birth on GRO with mn Alexander ???
Service Record
Robert Ernest Bell
Birth 28 Apr 1908 Gateshead Durham
Marriage 22 Nov 1934 Co Durham
Residence Place Stocksfield; Northumberland
Enlisted 12 Dec 1940
Discharged 27 Feb 1946
Service Number 3327554
Rank Private 818s Coy
Regiment Itc H. L. I
Occupation Sand Fitter
Relationship to Service Member
I M Bell Richardson Spouse ( not given full name as not established death)
James Hooks
Private Border Regiment Service Number 4131/241707
d 17 Sep 1916
Next of Kin (Name) Relation to Soldier
Frances Janet Bell Mother
William Hooks
female name on same page
Frances Janet Alexander
Registration Quarter sept 1889 Durham Volume 10a Page 1120
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Believe this to be Edwin@ gro birth ref
BELL, JAMES EDWIN -
GRO Reference: 1911 M Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1104
SS
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Didn’t find Robert’s birth on GRO with mn Alexander ???
Robert Ernest Bell
Nationality British
Marital Status Married
Birth 28 Apr 1908
Birth Place Gateshead Durham
An earlier one in 1903?
BELL, ROBERT ERNEST
Mother's Maiden Surname: COLE
GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1130
Death
June 1904 Gateshead 10a 570
Bell, Robert Ernest
Age 0
Another birth reg
BELL, NORMAN
Mother's Maiden Surname: COLE
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1136
Possible death
Sep 1905 Gateshead 10a 573
Cole, Norman
Age 0
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See below link for Edwin's birth.
SS
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=896337.new#new
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Mother Margaret born 7th March 1893.
May help if she married and Edwin/James took on an adopted surname.
SS
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See below link for Edwin's birth.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=896337.new#new
So his mother was Margaret Bell - SS well found and very kind of you to obtain the birth certificate :)
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On checking freeBMD I get 2 results when giving a yob as 1870.
Deaths Mar 1905
Bell Mary 34 Durham 10a 272
BELL Mary Ann 34 Sunderland 10a 390
I am thinking the best option is the first one? (In 1901 she is at Black Row, Woodside, Ryton)
Another birth reg
BELL, NORMAN
Mother's Maiden Surname: COLE
GRO Reference: 1905 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 1136
Possible death Sep 1905 Gateshead 10a 573 Cole, Norman Age 0
Robert & Frances marriage Mar qtr. 1907
If that is the death of Robert & Mary’s son I wonder if this might be a possible entry for her death
BELL, MARY 37
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 558
From GRO indexes Digital Images are only available for Births 1837-1923 and Deaths 1837-1957
- cost £3.00
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Deleted
SS
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Wow :o this post has really taken off, fantastic information, many thanks!
I am trying to focus in on Robert Bell c 1862ish. From the census info he could have been born between 1860 - 64. He has places of birth given as Sheving Moor? Seaton and Co.Durham.
I have peaked at other trees and his parents are (among others) given as Robert and Isabella but offer no proof. I don't want to simply copy these trees as it seems many have done so without question.
There seem to be many Robert Bells knocking around at this point in time in the general area of County Durham,,,, so how to tie our Robert down to some parents ??? I usually end up making a huge list and eliminating them one by one at huge cost by ordering a hat load of certificates (mostly this raises more questions than was intended!) Is there a better way of going about this?
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I am trying to focus in on Robert Bell c 1862ish. From the census info he could have been born between 1860 - 64. He has places of birth given as Sheving Moor? Seaton and Co.Durham.
I have peaked at other trees and his parents are (among others) given as Robert and Isabella but offer no proof. I don't want to simply copy these trees as it seems many have done so without question.
There seem to be many Robert Bells knocking around at this point in time in the general area of County Durham,,,, so how to tie our Robert down to some parents ???
I usually end up making a huge list and eliminating them one by one at huge cost by ordering a hat load of certificates (mostly this raises more questions than was intended!) Is there a better way of going about this?
If you haven’t already done so I would certainly start by obtaining Robert & Mary's marriage to confirm father’s name and occupation
It would certainly seem that Robert Bell married for a second time to Frances Janet Hooks nee Alexander, her name appears on his Army Record (sorry can't add a snippet of it on this post as it's on the lookup board)
Armstrong Bell
Document Date 1915
Residence Place Orchard Avenue, Rowland S Gill, Co Durham
Military Date 1915
Regimental Number 3009
Regiment Name Royal Field Artillery, Northumbrian Brigade
Number of Images 24
Form Title Attestation
NOK father Robert Bell
UK, British Army World War I Service Records, 1914-1920 - image on Anc*y
If you can narrow down his birth record on FreeBMD with a registration district you could check GRO indexes for mother's maiden name and obtain an instant digital image, then look for his parents marriage
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Are these the censuses you have for him?
1911c
Robert Bell age 51 born Durham occupation miner
Frances, William Hooks, James Hooks, Margaret Bell 16, Armstrong Bell 18, Elizabeth Bell 13, Nora Hooks, Robert Bell 3, Edwin Bell 3 mths
1901c
Robert Bell age 37 born (county ditto North’d) Seaton Delavel occ coal hewer
Mary 30, Thos 10, Margt. 8, Armstrong 6, Mary Eliz 3 & Alice L 2 mths
1891c
Robert Bell age 28 born Durham She?ing Moor occ coal miner
Mary 20, Robert 1 & Thomas C 5 mths
Seaton Delaval Northumberland is in the registration district of Tynemouth - there are quite a few Robert Bell’s born between 1861 - 1866 Tynemouth as you say difficult to narrow it down
If you have his father’s name you could at least cross reference each of those individual mother’s maiden looking for a marriage entry on FreeBMD for a ? Bell to ?
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Marriage certificate purchased, now its a question of waiting untill the certificate arrives here in Holland ;D
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Marriage certificate purchased, now its a question of waiting untill the certificate arrives here in Holland ;D
Good news when you receive it please come back and let us know what it says :)
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Not that it helps, there's this candidate in Ryton in 1881 (free index)
Robt Bell, Boarder, 20, Coal Miner, born Northumberland Seaton Delaval
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7572/records/4690682
What happened to Robert, when did he die? :-\
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in Ryton in 1881
Robt Bell, Boarder, 20, Coal Miner, born Northumberland Seaton Delaval
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7572/records/4690682
Who is this guy, I hear you asking.
Well I think he might be the RB registered March qtr 1861
BELL, ROBERT
Mother's Maiden Surname: SMITH
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 169
Marriage of parents was at Earsdon, 18 January 1858
Robert Bell + Isabella Smith
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP3T-YGQ8
1861 in Seaton Delaval, and young Robert is apparently enumerated as 14! Meant to be weeks possibly?
Place of birth Holywell (Terrace?) Holywell is right by Seaton Delaval
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7JC-3Q5
1871 in Wylam
Son Robert is 10
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRM9-4VH
1881 family still in Wylam, minus son Robert
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7572/records/17300889
Wylam is interesting because Robert Bell in Ryton in 1881 is boarding with the Wright family and Mrs Jane Wright nee Potts was apparently from Wylam, her mother and brother are with them.
Though in 1871 it says they were from nearby Ovingham!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5BF-T5F
Of course it may not be the right Robert for this query, and the marriage cert is eagerly awaited.
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Who is this guy, I hear you asking.--No I wasn't
Morning jonwarrn, I had 2 to choose from , mmn Smith or Beal/Beall. Wentdown the Beal route and it was not him. The Smith's I tried but went amiss because of the age of 14.
I have no doubt about that marriage cert saying his father is Robert. well done-good thinking.
SS
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1891c
Robert Bell age 28 born Durham She?ing Moor occ coal miner
Mary 20, Robert 1 & Thomas C 5 mths
Just dropping in to say that on the original the birthplace looks like Shiney/Shirey Moor to me, and I think the most likely place is Shiremooor which is a couple of miles south of Seaton Delaval.
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I think the most likely place is Shiremooor which is a couple of miles south of Seaton Delaval.
Thanks for that Jen, I wondered what it was supposed to be.
SS, it would be nice if the marriage certificate says Robert Bell for father, but I am not quite as confident as you!
I can't pin down Robert in 1921. Not at home with Frances and Robert junior. He was alive, so must be somewhere!
And when did he die?
Robert Bell is on the electoral registers at 13 Gibside Street, Winlaton until autumn 1925. Along with Frances Bell and Armstrong Bell. At number 17 is a Thomas Bell.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C39F-K3WB-9
Frances Bell is listed at 13 Gibside Street in spring 1926, along with Thomas Tucker. No Robert.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS13-J9ZJ-C
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I can't pin down Robert in 1921. Not at home with Frances and Robert junior. He was alive, so must be somewhere!
It seems that he wasn't alive at all :o
Robert Bell died at the Newcastle Royal Infirmary, 24 April 1921.
Of 13 Gibside Street, Rowlands Gill.
Age given as 57.
We could do with the Newcastle Chronicle, 28 April 1921, for full details!
Local Doctor To Be Called
Rowlands Gill Man's Death and An Accident in 1918
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Marriage of Parents:
St Alban, Earsdon
Entry 243
Robert Bell & Isabella Smith
Both age 22
Bachelor & Spinster
Miner
Fathers:
Thomas Bell – Miner
Robert Smith – Miner
Witnesses:
Ann Smith – signed with her mark
William Blackett (who seems to have been a regular signer on marriage entries)
Robert signed and Isabella signed with her mark.
By Banns
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We could do with the Newcastle Chronicle, 28 April 1921, for full details!
Local Doctor To Be Called
Rowlands Gill Man's Death and An Accident in 1918
Here you are :) https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/2ad7709b-de25-42cc-8357-a189d90ef2e9
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Thank you for the article, Jen.
Poor Robert seems to have had a tough few years after having injured himself.
I won't mention that there are two death registrations for Robert Bell age 57 in Newcastle in June qtr 1921!
Thanks too, RTL, for the marriage info. I do think they are the likely parents of RB in Ryton in 1881, we now await further news from Pete.
John
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Thank you for the article, Jen.
Poor Robert seems to have had a tough few years after having injured himself.
I won't mention that there are two death registrations for Robert Bell age 57 in Newcastle in June qtr 1921!
Thanks too, RTL, for the marriage info. I do think they are the likely parents of RB in Ryton in 1881, we now await further news from Pete.
John
I will then, sod's law the article could refer to either.
SS
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Marriage certificate purchased, now its a question of waiting untill the certificate arrives here in Holland ;D
Marriage certificate arrived yesterday ;D
4th may 1889
Robert Bell, aged 27, Bachelor, Miner, Wylam, father: Robert Bell
Mary Cole, aged 19, Spinster, Crawcrook, father: Thomas Cole
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Marriage certificate purchased, now its a question of waiting untill the certificate arrives here in Holland ;D
Marriage certificate arrived yesterday ;D
4th may 1889
Robert Bell, aged 27, Bachelor, Miner, Wylam, father: Robert Bell
Mary Cole, aged 19, Spinster, Crawcrook, father: Thomas Cole
Thank you for the update
Does it give an occupation for father Robert?
Who were the witnesses?
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Sorry for the omission ::)
Father, Robert's profession was also a miner as was Mary's father, Thomas.
Witnesses: John Robson and Elizabeth Fraser.
I am hoping that the witnesses may be brother/sister in law at least related somewhere along the line.
Thanks for all the information regarding Robert Bell's accident and eventual death, Wow!
what a hard and dangerous life it was down the mines :-[
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I still like the Robert Bell + Isabella Smith family.
Their son Robert was born in Seaton Delaval, or very close by.
Later they moved to Wylam, and Robert senior was a coal miner in the 1881 census.
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Marriage of Parents:
St Alban, Earsdon
Entry 243
Robert Bell & Isabella Smith
Both age 22
Bachelor & Spinster
Miner
Fathers:
Thomas Bell – Miner
Robert Smith – Miner
Witnesses:
Ann Smith – signed with her mark
William Blackett (who seems to have been a regular signer on marriage entries)
Robert signed and Isabella signed with her mark.
By Banns
On setting a search for Robert Bell's born c1835 born Northumberland (In the census he claims consistently to have been born Percy Main) with father: Thomas Bell. I have 3 results:
i. Robert Alexander Bell, chr. 09-06-1835, Monkswearmouth, Durham.
parents: Thomas and Margaret Bell.
ii. Robert Bell, chr. 24-05-1835, St. Peters, Wallsend, Northumberland.
parents: Thomas and Margaret Bell.
iii. Robert Bell, chr. 28-01-1835, Hartburn, Northumberland.
parents: Thomas and Isabella.
I think that I can disregard the first option as the second name Alexander does not appear anywhere, thus, leaving 2 choices, Thomas and Margaret or Thomas and Isabella. The clue may be in the location of birth as our Robert consistently claims to have been born at 'Percy Main' (1861,71 and 81).
All my life I have never been north of Norwich and now live in the lovely town of Zwolle in the Netherlands and my geographical knowledge of Durham/ Northumberland is very limited. I need the advice of local experts to hopefully point me in the right direction.
The whiskey is kicking in now, so I will look at the census for these remaining two options tomorrow.
kind regards
Petey
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Marriage of Parents:
St Alban, Earsdon
Entry 243
Robert Bell & Isabella Smith
Both age 22
Bachelor & Spinster
Miner
Fathers:
Thomas Bell – Miner
Robert Smith – Miner
Witnesses:
Ann Smith – signed with her mark
William Blackett (who seems to have been a regular signer on marriage entries)
Robert signed and Isabella signed with her mark.
By Banns
On setting a search for all Robert Bell's born c1835 born Northumberland (In the census he claims consistently to have been born Percy Main) with father: Thomas Bell. I have 3 results:
i. Robert Alexander Bell, chr. 09-06-1835, Monkswearmouth, Durham.
parents: Thomas and Margaret Bell.
ii. Robert Bell, chr. 24-05-1835, St. Peters, Wallsend, Northumberland.
parents: Thomas and Margaret Bell.
iii. Robert Bell, chr. 28-01-1835, Hartburn, Northumberland.
parents: Thomas and Isabella.
I think that I can disregard the first option as the second name Alexander does not appear anywhere, thus, leaving 2 choices, Thomas and Margaret or Thomas and Isabella. The clue may be in the location of birth as our Robert consistently claims to have been born at 'Percy Main' (1861,71 and 81).
All my life I have never been north of Norwich and now live in the lovely town of Zwolle in the Netherlands and my geographical knowledge of Durham/ Northumberland is very limited. I need the advice of local experts to hopefully point me in the right direction.
The whiskey is kicking in now, so I will look at the census for these remaining two options tomorrow.
kind regards
Petey
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At DRO the 24 May 1835 baptism at Wallsend says "Robert Bell of Howdon Pans" (and father Thomas is a shipwright)
Modern Howdon Pans is very close to Percy Main, maybe 1 mile.
On this early OS map view Howden Pans (same place different spelling) is at the bottom of the image on the north bank of the Tyne, and Percy Main is NNE near the top.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.4&lat=54.99445&lon=-1.48040&layers=257&b=ESRIWorld&o=100
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GENUKI has this map showing Percy Main
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Tynemouth/StJohn
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At DRO the 24 May 1835 baptism at Wallsend says "Robert Bell of Howdon Pans" (and father Thomas is a shipwright)
Modern Howdon Pans is very close to Percy Main, maybe 1 mile.
On this early OS map view Howden Pans (same place different spelling) is at the bottom of the image on the north bank of the Tyne, and Percy Main is NNE near the top.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.4&lat=54.99445&lon=-1.48040&layers=257&b=ESRIWorld&o=100
Having identified other baptisms for this family I have traced them through 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871. This Robert Bell (1835) always gives his place of birth as Tynemouth or Howdon, not Percy Main, so if your Robert says Percy Main then it is not the same man.
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Another candidate:
Tynemouth, Christ Church
14 Jul 1833 Robert Bell, of Percy Main, son of James (collier) & Mary Bell
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Marriage of Parents:
St Alban, Earsdon
Entry 243
Robert Bell & Isabella Smith
Both age 22
Bachelor & Spinster
Miner
Fathers:
Thomas Bell – Miner
Robert Smith – Miner
Witnesses:
Ann Smith – signed with her mark
William Blackett (who seems to have been a regular signer on marriage entries)
Robert signed and Isabella signed with her mark.
By Banns
Searching for Roberts parents I am using the above information that Roberts father is Thomas Bell and that Robert is born around 1836. Marriage age of 22 in 1858 = 1836 and census giving a birth range of c1835-37. The fact that Robert constantly gives his place of birth as 'Percy Main' stands out
to me. So he must have been living very close to this place. It seems that it was a developing area named after the station and not of an existing village, so maybe the lay of the land in the 1830's is an important clue? possibly being born close by and moving to the area as a young child and being the first place he remembers?
The candidates are few, but the Wallsend option are ship wrights, the Hartburn option I have since discovered from census details are farmers so I am not sure if this Robert would have made the transition from farmer to coalminer? The new candidate suggested by AlanBoyd gives fathers name as James and not Thomas. I have however found another possible candidate but was born in 1829 at Chirton, which seems to be a stones throw away from Percy Main, with parents Tomas and Elizabeth. On family search the parents seem to come from Yorkshire?
Oh well, back to the drawing board ???
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Percy Main was a pit, so a coal miner makes good sense
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I tried a new strategy and have searched the 1851 Census records for Robert Bell, aged 15, born Northumberland with father(head) as Thomas Bell, also the 1841 census with Robert aged 5 also father Thomas Bell,,,, unfortunately, I didn't find anything of interest ??? I really thought that this would produce a good result, most disappointed :-\
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Coming at it from another direction, maybe something to investigate...
1851 census (from transcript) at Seaton Delaval, Delaval Colliery
Thomas Bell, Son, 15, Coal Miner, born Northumberland Tynemouth
Head is a widowed Ann Bell, 55, born Wallsend
Also, Elizabeth Williams, Daughter, 21, born Tynemouth
William Williams, Son in law, 27
On FreeCen
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/696b98e8b18f7c1c86698675/robert-bell-1851-northumberland-earsdon-1836-?locale=en
On FamilySearch, Ann transcribed as Well
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG63-D1G
Possible marriage, 23 Dec 1848, Tynemouth
William Williams
+
Elizabeth Bell, father Thomas Bell
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP7B-HWYS
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Well there is this family in Seaton Delaval in 1841
Piece 820 Book 19 Folio 33 Page 13
Living in West Row
Per different transcriptions Robert is either Bell or Bellus?
Thomas Bell 45 Coal Miner
Ann Bell 40
Thomas Bell 14
Elizebeth Bell 11
Margret Bell 9
Robert Bell or Bellus 5
Elizebeth Bell or Bellus 20
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/6241c51ef493fd06054d8b3d/robert-bellus-1841-northumberland-earsdon-1836-?locale=en
or
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7WC-MZL
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There seem to be some baptisms to this Thomas and Ann Bell at Tynemouth Wesleyan Methodist
i.e.
Margaret
Daughter of Thomas + Ann Bell
Mothers parents G (George) + Mary Errington
Abode Percy Main, Parish of Tynemouth
Born 25 Septr 1831
Baptized 6 Novr 1831
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Not finding one for a Robert though.
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Marriage, 14 June 1817, Wallsend
Thomas Bell
+
Ann Errington
BT here, faint or faded writing
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6L2H-MSB
Transcript here
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/684dea5686557455d494fd6e
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In 1861 Ann Bell, 64, born Wallsend
Robert and Isabella are just eighteen census pages further on.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5903e48ee9379091b120631f/ann-bell-1861-northumberland-earsdon-1797-?locale=en
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Having now seen the 1841 census image, a digital one, not from microfilm, the surname is dittoed from Thomas Bell's down to 9 year old "Margret"
Then Robert, 5, has what may be the surname Bellus, and, following, the surname of Elizebeth, 20, is dittoed from Robert's.
Very strange.
Also in the house are John Nevens, 20, Elenor Nevens, 20, Mary Nevens, 3 months
Are they enumerated as in the same household? :-\
Birth
March 1841 Tynemouth 25 418
Nevens, Mary Ann
mother's maiden surname Bell
Marriage was at South Shields, 22 November 1840
John Nevens
+
Eleanor Bell, father Thomas Bell
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNJB-JTF
A Methodist baptism for Eleanor at Tynemouth, 21 May 1820
Born 7 April 1820
Parents Thos Bell of Flatworth in the parish of Tynemouth and his wife Ann, daughter of George & Mary Errington.
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Looking for Margaret Bell in 1851
She seems to be with her married sister Mary Ann (Potts) in Tynemouth
Age 18, born Percy Main
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6Q-9FX
Marriage, 28 July 1845, Tynemouth
Joseph Potts
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Mary Ann Bell, father Thomas Bell
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGTH-76NM
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So if this Robert is the right one, he was perhaps hard to find because
1. No baptism for him (online at least), though there are baptisms of his older siblings.
2. In 1841 he is recorded for some reason as Bellus, or similar, and transcribed as such on ancestry.
Though, if it is the same person, he is Bell in 1851, and enumerated as son of Ann.
Or, because of all that, I suppose you could look at another way, and wonder if Robert really was the son of Thomas and Ann? :-\
Could he have been a son of the Elizabeth "Bellus" who may have been Bell, that we see in 1841, maybe she was some kind of relative of Thomas, and Robert stayed with them, and then with the widowed Ann. And thus gave Thomas Bell as his father when he got married to Isabella.
Not sure that is at all more likely, but, just in case, throw in a baptism at Tynemouth, 2 Nov 1834 as a possibility.
Robert Spurrier, son of Elizabeth Bell, Singlewoman.
Abode Little Bedford Street
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5dff9060f493fdae13facd9c
But
Elizabeth would have been very young. if she was 20-24 in 1841.
It may not be the same pair who are in Seaton Delaval in 1841. And anyway Bellus may not be a mistake for Bell (what name is it meant to be though?)
All very puzzling.
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I do think (certainly hope!) that the more straightforward option is the more likely (Robert is son of Thomas and Ann, but for some reason not baptised at the Tynemouth Wesleyan Methodist church)
What about Pete? Do you think this might be your Robert?
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I'm just adding the full marriage entry for Joseph Potts and Mary Ann Bell into the mix ...
Christ Church, Tynemouth
Entry 155
28 July 1845
Joseph Potts & Mary Ann Bell
Both ‘full age’
Husbandman
His abode: ‘Of the Parish of Earsdon’
Her abode: ‘This Parish’
Fathers:
Joseph Potts – Husbandman
Thomas Bell – Banksman
Witnesses:
(?) Nevens & Robert Davison (note Robert appears to have been a serial signer at the Church.
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Thanks again, RTL.
You are amazing!
John
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What a lovely compliment :)
This may or may not be helpful but I have found it and will add just in case ..
St Peter, Wallsend
Baptism 24 May 1835
Entry 686
Robert Bell
Son of Thomas & Margaret
Shipwt (Presumably Shipwright - small raised t after the w.
Abode Howdon Panns
Now I'm running overtime so have to dash off quick!
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I do think (certainly hope!) that the more straightforward option is the more likely (Robert is son of Thomas and Ann, but for some reason not baptised at the Tynemouth Wesleyan Methodist church)
What about Pete? Do you think this might be your Robert?
hi jonwarn and RTL, sorry I have been AWOL during this post, work has been pretty intense, but wow!, you are both amazing! ,,, A complete generation reborn and brought back to virtual life, many thanks for your efforts. I am in catch up mode (as usual) information and facts being osmotically absorbed as I type ::) "
Jonwarn, In answer to your question, I do believe that this is the correct Robert and family. The reason being that siblings Elanor 1820, Thomas 1826 and Elizabeth 1829 are all born at Flatworth (Colliery) and then sister Margret 1831 is born at Percy Main (Colliery) where as we know, Robert invariably gives as place of birth in subsequent census's.
I haven't yet seen a scan of the original 1841 census but cannot offer an explanation for the ' Bellus' mystery, and who is the older Elizabeth (Bellus) born 1821? (not in the 1851 census) she cannot be a daughter of Thomas and Ann as they have daughter Elizabeth born 1830. Maybe a sister of Thomas?
As I read your replies you seem to have considered most possibilities. There may be some clues to be found in reconstructing the lives of Roberts siblings? who marries who and lodges with whom and who lives down the road or around the corner. Maybe aunts and uncles appear, aged parents, who knows. Sometimes witnesses on marriage entries yield surprise names,,,, I shall give this a go and see that you have already found some of Roberts, siblings marriages, again, thanks for that too.
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Looking for Margaret Bell in 1851
She seems to be with her married sister Mary Ann (Potts) in Tynemouth
Age 18, born Percy Main
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6Q-9FX
Marriage, 28 July 1845, Tynemouth
Joseph Potts
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Mary Ann Bell, father Thomas Bell
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGTH-76NM
I seem to have missed a sister? Mary Ann Bell who marries a Joseph Potts in 1845 but does not appear in the 1841 census with parents Thomas and Ann. Wonder if there are any more :o
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Here is the marriage mentioned by Jonwarrn as a 'possible' in post 49. Unfortunately, both witnesses appear to have been serial signers at the Church rather than family members.
Christ Church, Tynemouth
Entry 451
23 Dec 1848
William Williams & Elizabeth Bell
Both full age
Bachelor & Spinster
Collier
Both This Parish
Fathers:
(?) Williams - Collier (too faded for me to make out although he is recorded as Richard on FamilySearch attachment posted by jonwarrn.
Thomas Bell - Collier
William signed his name.
Elizabeth signed her mark
Witnesses:
Thomas Oxley
James Pye
By Banns
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Here is the info for your records re the other marriage mentioned by Jonwarrn ..
St Hilda, South Shields
Entry 126
22 Nov 1840
John Nevens & Eleanor Bell
Both of full age
Banksman
Both abode 'So Shields'
Fathers:
Thomas Nevens - Waggonman
Thomas Bell - Banksman
Witnesses:
John Lee
Jas (s is small and raised) Ramsey
(Ramsey appears to be a serial signer)
All signed names
By Banns
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Thanks again, RTL.
Extremely kind of you.
John
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I have tried to search for the birth/baptism of Thomas Bell c1796. The 1841 census gives Thomas aged 45 so born c1796. I know that in 1841 the year of birth was rounded off to the nearest 0 or 5. On inspecting the census page it is clear to see that firstly 48 was written down and the a 5 was written over the 8. This would give an adjusted year of birth as 1793 ;D The only other information given is that he was 'born in County',,,, yeah thanks for that ::)
On searching for Robert Bell's born with these details it quickly became clear that there are a lot of Robert Bell's born at this time !!!
So, I thought, searching for Roberts death/burial may reveal an age at death to help. Robert must have died some time after the 1841 census and the 1851 census where wife Ann is a widow. Again many Robert Bell's meeting their demise. So I thought I would cheat and look to see if any exhisting Bell trees may offer any clues. It turns out that this particular Bell line is not being researched excepting for a few scraggly trees bearing little fruit. A couple do insist that he dies in sept 1841at Seaton Delaval. FreeBMD gives only one result for this: deaths sept 1841, Tynemouth, vol 25, page 257. I guess the only way to prove this is by ordering the certificate, which I shall do and share the results when this little gem arrives in my letter box ;D
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On searching the 1841 census, the following Bell's where discovered:
Stable Row, Seaton Delaval (2 pages back)
Robert Bell 50
Robert Bell 20
Joseph Bell 30
Robert Bell 6
Ann Bell 2
Ann Bell 50
Mary Bell 8
Jane Bell 31
This is a strange compilation of Bell's of various ages all living together
Blacksmith Row, Seaton Delaval
Jacob Bell 50
Isabella Bell 50
Mary Bell 20
Jane Bell 11
Isabella Bell 6m
this family is a regular parents and offspring family group.
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The 1851 Census search for Bell families produced more results:
106 Double Row, Seaton Delaval
Robert Bell head 70 horse keeper b Hexham
Ann Bell wife 60 b Hexham
Robert Bell son 38 coal miner b Hexham
Sarah Bell sons wife 36 b Earsdon
George Bell grandson 7 b Earsdon
Robert Bell grandson 4 b Earsdon
Thomas Lamb visitoir 28
Ann Robson serv 26 horse serv
21 Brick Row, Seaton, Delaval
Jacob Bell 63 head Engineman
Isabella Bell 61 wife
Jane Hindmar 20 daughter (sounds Dutch)
Isabella Bell 10 granddaughter
142 Double Row, Seaton Delaval
Martin Bell 27 head b Tynemouth
Mary Bell 25 wife b Earsdon
Elizabeth Bell 4m daughter b Earsdon
152 Double Row, Seaton Delaval
Living with Family Richardson
John Bell 25
Jane Bell 20
71 Garden House, Seaton Delaval
John Bell 41 head Gardener b Earsdon
Margret Bell 40 wife b Woodhorn?
Mary Ann 15 b Earsdon
John 11 b Earsdon
George 5 b Earsdon
Robert 2 b Earsdon
John Dodds 50 widow servent
Not so sure if I can use this information to help in anyway, maybe I am just scratching in the dirt hoping to see the light. But, I will do the best I can to find any links to these families and report back. I am sure that Roberts parents are amongst these Bell families in the general area. Any hints and clues are very welcome ::)
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You are welcome, Jonwarrn. I am happy to be able to try to help out as you do. :)
Petey, perhaps hang fire with ordering the cert, just yet.
If this Robert you are after died in Seaton Delaval in 1841, he may have a St Alban's, Earsdon burial.
I have shifts coming up but I could check this out for you soon if you would like me to. Probably, at some point in next two weeks but as soon as I am able.
The burial entries around this time were sometimes a bit more informative than later years, although no guarantee.
By the way, there is St Albans volume of baptisms at the
Local Studies which lists a Robert Bell baptised 1835 but
I think this one had a Father called John. Mother's name also recorded but I would have to check again to be quite sure on both parents' names. I don't think it was Thomas.
I think there were a couple of other Roberts too in this slim volume which covers the years 1833-1836.
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A couple do insist that he dies in sept 1841at Seaton Delaval. FreeBMD gives only one result for this: deaths sept 1841, Tynemouth, vol 25, page 257.
I guess the only way to prove this is by ordering the certificate, which I shall do and share the results when this little gem arrives in my letter box ;D
Petey22 just checking you do know you can order an instant digital image from GRO indexes cost £3.00
BELL, THOMAS 49
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in TYNEMOUTH UNION Volume 25 Page 257
Order this entry as a:
Order Certificate of selected entry
Order PDF of selected entry
Order digital - Image available to view once payment is complete and a link to the image is provided on the order confirmation screen. (Image also available to view via My Orders page for 3 months).
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So it is a Thomas Bell death you are looking for and not a Robert.
Well, if you are in no immediate hurry I could check St Alban's, Earsdon in the next couple of weeks but as soon as able to and you can see if it might be worth ordering a digital image based on any info that might be found. The 1840's entries sometimes gave good details.
Let me know what you decide and if you think this look up is worth doing or not. If you don't respond, I will assume that this look up is not required.