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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ragna on Monday 22 January 07 20:34 GMT (UK)
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Hello all again (2nd attempt, granddaughter deleted last attempt)
Wonder if anyone has any advice that can help me solve a 2 year mystery about my Great Grandfather Sydney George Frederick McLaven aka Frederick George Sydney McLaven. I can find no signs of him on any census's or his birth, so therefore I am unable to go back any further.
I have 3 definate pieces of documentation in my possession for him
Marriage Certificate March 9th 1895 to Fanny Terrey. On this certificate he is named as Sydney George Frederick McLaven, 28 years old, a Bachelor, Hotel Assistant who lived at 1 Acorn Place Peckham (was Fannys sisters house)and father named as Edward McLaven who was a Farmer. (did not say deseased) The witnesses were both Terrey's which therefore makes me conclude that his Family didnt attend.
Death Certificate August 9th 1907 Salisbury but this time named as Frederick George Sydney McLaven Aged 40 years.
Medical records leading to his death mention that he owned Claridges (obviously he didnt, but led me to wonder if he worked there) So rang Claridges but they were not very forthcoming.
Apart from these I have found absolutely nothing else or on his Father Edward.
One theory was that he perhaps was originally LAVEN and because this is a Jewish name and there was an awful amount of anti-semitisium around this time he changed it. If this is the case then I have found a Sydney Laven born in Marylebone on the 1881 Census who was residing at Wandsworth Reformatory Boys School. Yet I can not find him on the Marylebone Births. (unless I didnt look correctly)
Another theory was that he came from Ireland or Scotland?
He does not feature on any of the Census's including the 1901 Census where he is missing although his Wife and children are residing at 27 Surrey Lane Battersea. Nor Can I find a Edward McLaven. I have tried all varients including putting in just Sydney George Frederick, just McLaven & Laven but nothing seems to tie in.
So basically I have come up against a brick wall but i am wondering whether there is something obvious that I am missing here.
Has anyone got any advice or suggest what road to go down next.
Many thanks again
Ragna
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Hi Ragna
I thought that he may have been mistranscribed as a McLaren but I couldn't find a match there either (I don't have access to all the censuses though).
I would look at Scotland; and hope he isn't in Ireland as they are more difficult to find there, a lot of their records having been destroyed.
Have you tried GenesReunited? They have a large membership now and can be useful.
Interesting about the Claridges reference — I wonder why they mentioned it if there was no truth in it?
Good luck, Rian.
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Ragna,
Do you have his obit? You know when and where he died so you could write to the library and ask them to look it up and copy it for you. His obit might mention where he was born or where he grew up. It might also mention family members and their whereabouts.
You could also write to the cemeteries and funeral homes in the area. Their records might list place of birth.
Regards,
Josephine
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Ragna,
Another thought would be to try to find Claridges in the 1901 census, in case he was working the night shift.
Their website gives the street names, etc:
http://www.claridges.co.uk/about_claridges/default.asp
Regards,
Josephine
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Thank you for all your replies
Rian - Yes i wondered too about McLaren because quite often the V can look like a R. I have found nothing that fits so far. I am on GenesReunited but sadly have had no links yet, I have also got a tree with ancestry so hoping in the future that eventually someone will shed some light.
The reason I mentioned Claridges is that within his medical notes they said he would say he owned Claridges in London (of course he didnt..he was a pauper) but it made me wonder if he was a Hotel Porter there (that was his occupation) and this was the reason he mentioned it.
Josephine - Yes I have his death Certificate but his birth is not mentioned on it. Would there be more information somewhere else? (think I may go and start making some phone calls)
Well as for Claridges, I have tried to find it on the 1901 Census without luck. (think i must be putting in something wrong) & I actually rang Claridges who were not very forthcoming and still awaiting for them to call me back.
Thanks again..(i will not give up....i will not give up...)
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Ragna,
Was a notice put in the newspaper when he died? That's what I meant by his obit (obituary). Sometimes the family includes place of birth in an obit, especially if it was another country or area.
This information might be on his tombstone or in his cemetery or funeral home records.
Since you have the date of marriage, you could also request a look-up in the newspaper in case there was a notice in the newspaper about it.
Good luck! I have several brick walls, so I know how it feels! But never give up until you have exhausted all the possibilities! ;)
Regards,
Josephine
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I checked The Times archives ... nothing about him there
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Thank you both...
After I read some replies earlier I rang Salisbury Registry Office and asked if there would have been more information than what is on the Death Certificate. They said in those days there wasnt but told me to call the Library which i did and they are currently running a search for me to find where he was buried, but sadly it will most likely be in an unmarked grave as he was a pauper.
I very much doubt if there would be an obituary as from what I make out he was disowned by his family after contracting Syphillis of the Brain (took 3-5 years for them to die) However I will see if there is something more about his Marriage.
So frustrating !!!
Ragna
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Ragna,
That's a really sad story. Oh, boy.
I've tried to search for him in the various censuses using just his first initials and even that didn't pan out.
Most of the McLavens listed in the 1901 census were born in Scotland. (There's a George McLaven, aged 38, in prison in 1901 and he was born in Edinborough.) Perhaps, as someone else suggested, you might look to Scotland for his birth. You know approximately when he was born (from his age when he was married).
I wonder, if you request a look-up on the Scotland board, perhaps someone might be able to find his birth or baptism in the Scotlands People index, or even just tell you if it isn't there. He's got quite the name so it should be easy enough to identify him, no matter the order in which his given names were written (at least I hope so).
If the library is able to learn where he was buried, that might be a clue, at least as to whether or not he was Jewish.
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi there
Yes I found that George and wondered whether it was him but I dont think so because he was living in Surrey Lane, Battersea so if he had been put into prison it would have been locally. Also he used the name Sydney as on his medical admission it stated after the names (1) (2) against names and there was a (1) against Sydney.
That was a brilliant point about his religion and prompted me to remember that on Medical admission for him it says C of E so perhaps the Jewish Rumour is unlikely. Although would he have lied or changed religion.?
I have checked Scotland paying for a session on their website without any success for either him or his father. Have wondered about Ireland and think that I will do what you have suggested and place some enquiries on the Ireland and Scotland Boards.
Thank you again for all your help, I have been telling all my family today about this site and just how amazing it is....I only stumbled it by chance when i was googling something.
Ragna ;D
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You're most welcome, Ragna! ;)
In my experience, it's tough when people were hiding something; they usually covered their tracks fairly well. Also, if people didn't have much money, that can make it less likely that we'll find documentation on them.
Maybe the local church would have a record of his burial. It all depends on what information the priest or minister recorded and what the informant knew. It's always worth a try, however, because you never know what you might find.
My great-grandfather's death record (in Canada) is useless. The information is either missing or incorrect (his mother's name is wrong). We know it's the same guy because we have his death notice and burial card. So the informant on the death record probably wasn't his wife.
It's possible that your great-grandfather might have changed his religion and his name and it's something to keep in mind. The key, at this point, would be in finding out where he was born because then you could search the census and birth records with a bit more certainty.
Much to my surprise, I found a Jewish ancestor (Barnett Barnett) who was born around 1796. His daughter (my ancestor) married in the Anglican church and her children were baptized in the Anglican church. Another daughter married a Jewish man and their children were raised Jewish. Most of Barnett Barnett's children married in the Anglican church. I recently learned that, despite being married in the Anglican church and baptizing his children in the Anglican church, his son, Benjamin, must have stayed Jewish because he is buried in the synagogue cemetery. So, who knows?
My mother's grandmother had to have known that her grandfather and some aunts, uncles and cousins were Jewish, but as far as I know, she never told her children about it. My mother and her siblings didn't know.
Hmmmm. You could see if the church where your great-grandparents were married has a baptism for him as an adult, in the year or so prior to their marriage.
I looked for a baptism for my 3rd-great-grandmother (whose father was Jewish but whose mother seems to have been Anglican) but couldn't find one. However, one of her sisters was baptized in the Anglican church when she was about 53 years old. That was a chance find; I was just trolling through the records.
I wonder about the way McLaven might have been pronounced and the various spellings that might have created? For example, I think Coughlin is pronounced "Cocklin" or "Coglin". Would Soundex pick up on Coughlin = Cocklin?
Someone recently told me that his ancestor changed the beginning of his name from Mac to Mc when he came to Canada but the reasoning seemed funny to me (I can't remember what it was).
I wish it were possible to search on surnames on Ancestry with a wildcard at the beginning of the name (for example, *ven).
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi again
I like you have found mistakes too and especially with spellings. But like you say with the Burial in Canada you know it is him. What a Great name Barnett Barnett !!! I wasnt aware of the anti semitisum in the 1800s until i was reading up one day. Apparently (correct me anyone here if im wrong cos i read this a long time ago) in Whitechapel when Jack the Ripper was murdering it was rumoured to be a Jew (because they suspected he was a surgeon) and there were riots. If this is the case it would be around the same time that my Sydney could have changed his name.
Latest I forgot to add later (was inbetween babies/dinner/and arguing teenagers) that Salisbury Library rang me today and gave me a couple of numbers to call tomorrow that will possibly give me where he was buried. Will keep you posted
Excellent idea about where he was married. I never really thought about that he may have came from the same place. Going to pursue that further.
Ragna ;D
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Hi Ragna
Do you have Fanny on any census before her marriage? I was wondering if he lived nearby and that is how they met. If you have her address in 1891 it might be worth looking up and down her street. I can't help but think that with a name like this, and you not finding him in Scotland, it could well have been mistranscribed.
I have had more examples of this in my own research than you can poke a stick at! My grandfather had BOTH his names mistranscribed (Kennett Garner to Kenneth Turner) and I found him as a lodger in my grandmother's house! Poor man even had the registrar record him as Kelleth at his birth.
If you have an address, I could look both ways along the street for you.
Worth a shot anyway.
Cheers, Rian.
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Oooooh what a good idea. :o
Well.....I know that at the time of the marriage he was living at 1 Acorn Place Peckham and I have found Fanny Terrey's sister Emma (Sargeant) at the same address so perhaps he was their lodger?
Is it possible to do Census Search's on just addresses apart from the 1901 Census.
Think I will spend tomorrow searching !!! (inbetween everything else)
Thank you
Ragna ;D
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1 Acorn Place Peckham is on RG13/507 folio 51 page 28 in 1901
The family there is,
Henry and Emma Sargeant and their kids George 24, Fred 15,Elliott 11 and Florence 8.
The 1881 is easily searchable by address,but for 1891 you'd need someone with a CD rom of the area I believe.
Regards
Carol
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Ragna,
I have just found the Sargeant family in 1891........at 1a Acorn Place Peckham.
RG 12/477 folio 18 page 30.
Sadly no lodgers though- they had enough kids to fill the house ;)
Sydney doesn't appear to be a near neighbour either.
Back to the drawing board for a rethink on this.
It's a difficult one ain't it?
My immediate reaction was.............that it's an Irish name,but also could have been Scottish I suppose.
Carol
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Thank you both so much, ;D
That has answered one question at least, he wasnt there !!!!! They were his Sister in law and brother in law and children though and its wonderful to think that my Aunty who lives in Canada who I speak to regulary (shes 81 now) remembers her Aunt Emm very clearly and Florence who she wasnt very keen on.
I did today find out where Sydney was buried, it was in Devizes Cemetery in Salisbury and they have even given me a Reference although it will be unmarked as he was a pauper. (two others were put there with him at a later date) They said that if I wish to visit they will mark it out for me (how nice)
Yes I have wondered about the Irish ....as i cant find him either Scotland or England perhaps (Edward Father) perhaps its worth trying Ireland although i know its difficult with so many records missing.
Ragna ;D
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Yes — I had a look up and down the road at Acorn Place and he wasn't there. (You can search if you have a sub to 'Find my past'). I wonder what he was doing in Salisbury?
Has anyone got access to the 1901 to see if he was there then?
Cheers, Rian.
PS We still haven't found where Fanny herself ws living before she married — we might still find him there.
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Hi ;D
Thank you for trying for me. He was sent to Salisbury to the Asylum which was common place in those days from Wandsworth Workhouse infirmary. (paupers used this) He had been out of work since the December before (has this in the admission to the hospital)
I can trace Fanny back to her family the Terreys and think I found her on the 1881 census as a servant (can not put my finger on exactly where without searching) She married him five years later.
Might subscribe to find my past too..!!!
Hes not at Acorn Place on the 1901 sadly :(
Ragna ;D
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Is this Fanny in 1871?:
RG number: RG10 Piece: 695 Folio: 73 Page: 28
Address: Broadhinton Road, Clapham
TERREY, Thomas Head M 57 Surrey
TERREY, Emma Wife F 37 Kent
TERREY, Thomas Son M 9 Surrey
TERREY, George Son M 7 Surrey
TERREY, Fanny E Daughter F 5 Surrey (Clapham)
TERREY, Edith Daughter F 3 Surrey
DALE, Sarah Visitor F 39 Kent
I had a quick look up and down here too (in case they were childhood sweathearts!) — no luck.
Cheers, Rian.
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Hi Rian
Sorry.........this is the wrong Fanny..her father was Samuel Terrey and her mother was Emma Avis. Funny thing is I can not find any of them on the 1871 census and presumed they did not take part which surprised me because he was an ex police officer. I think I found her on the 1881 as a Servant to the Fentons..but im not 100% sure its her.
I do wonder if he met through her sister Emma at 1a Acorn Road, perhaps he was a lodger? i wondered if Henry worked with him (he was a hotel porter) but Henry was a seal dresser.
Dont you just wish you could go back in time !!!
Ragna ;D
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Hi Ragna
I can't find him in 1871, but they don't have all counties for this year in FindMyPast. I thought i had Samuel and Emma but it turned out to be a policeman called Yeo (confused as a ditto from the line above). Just another mistranscribed missing person — I wonder who is going daft looking for HIM!
Sydney wasn't a lodger at Acorn place in 1891 — I looked.
Cheers, Rian.
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Just to set this out so we know what we're looking for.
Fanny and the children in 1901 are at 27 Surrey Lane, Battersea.
RG13/ 449 folio 109 page 3
Fanny McLaven wife marr 35 b Peckham
Howard son 4 b Battersea
Douglas son 1 b " "
Now we can all try and find her in 1891 ;)
Carol
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I have them in 1871 !!!
Mistranscribed as PERRY- and I must say it does look like that.
11 Attwell Road Peckham. RG10/732 folio 14 page 28
Samuel head 44 superannuated Police Constable b Southwark
Emma wife 40 b Tendring Essex
Eliza dau 8 b Peckham
Fanny dau 5 b Peckham
Lizzie dau 2 b Peckham
If only the McLavens were this easy!!! I'm leaning towards them being Scottish I must say.Esp after discovering that he named his son Douglas- very Scottish!
Regards
Carol
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They are still at 11 Atwell Road in 1881 too- but no Fanny!
RG11/684 foilio 38 page 7
Samuel Terrey head 54 metropolitan police pensioner and gate keeper at biscuitworks b Newington
Emma wife 50 B Weeley Essex
Lizzie dau 12 scholar b Camberwell
Alice M dau 6 " "
Robt Chambers 6 boarder b "
Now to find Fanny
Carol
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I think this might be her? Not that far from home.
RG11/ 676 folio 133 page 5 12 Fenwick R, Camberwell
Harriet BROWN Head Widow 78 b Peckham Market Gardener Retired
Elizabeth HARGOOD Sister Widow 82 Peckham Market Gardener Retired
George G. BROWN Step Son Unm 47 Croydon Market Gardener Retired Out Of Business
Julia A. BROWN Boarder Unm 50 Middlesex City, Annuitant
Fanney TERREY Serv Unm 15 Peckham, Domestic Serv
How does this one grab you?
Must get on with some housework now!
Carol
Carol
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Thank you so much Carol
I can not believe after all this time Ive found them on the 1871!!!!!! Would never have thought of Perry. How did you actually find it ?
I think I found Fanny as a servant on the 1881
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Not 100% but it seems to fit.
As for McLavens...sigh.
Ragna ;D
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YES....i think thats her too !!!!!
I sent posting same time lol
Thank you !!
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I actually found her in 1871 by putting in just the name Fanny with parents Samuel and Emma.
And the one called Perry in Camberwell looked promising!!!
Carol x
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What a perfect family ;D they are still at 11 Atwell Road in 1891 too.
Dad Samuel now 64 and a watchman at the port b Southwark
Wife Emma 60 b Tendring Essex
Dau Alice M 16 dressmakers apprentice b Peckham.
RG1/476 Folio 76 Page 36
Carol
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Hi Ragna,
Have found the Lunatic Asylum on
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/
Use the Gazeteer, choose Wiltshire and go to Devizes. The Asylum is below Wick Green.
You will see that there is a small cemetery on the same land.
I also found a discussion site which says that the buildings being used for a psych hospital as recently as 2001 have been demolished. There were apparently pictures to accompany the discussion at some point but they no longer exist.
I see that there was also a large work house complex in the town. Times were tough in that part of the country.
Wiltshire has a very competent historian who will go the extra mile to answer questions put to him. Can be found at,
http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/community/getcom.php?id=11
Good luck with your search,
Beth
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I just have to say that Rootschatters are fabulous!
:)
Regards,
Josephine
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Thank you so much everyone !!!
Elizabeth that map site will be invaluable thank you.
I agree with you Josephine...what a fantastic bunch of people on here.
I can quite honestly say that I have moved further in the past few days than I have in weeks thanks to the lovely people on here.
I hope that once I get more experienced that I too can help others.
Ragna ;D
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Carol — you are brilliant! Well done for your detective work.
I looked sideways on the 1871 and 81 for Fanny's addresses but couldn't find "himself". I think she just met him at a dance or something!
I am going to take out a sub to Scotland's people sometime soon, so that I can find some of my elusive Scots ancestors. When I do, I'll see if I can find Edward or Sydney. I just hate being beaten!
The lunatic asylum info looks promising too — good find Beth!
Good luck Ragna — do let us know if you find him, won't you.
Rian.
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Hello there ;D
Yes a huge thank you to everyone that is trying to help me. I can not believe how far I have got in such a short time and another thank you to Carol who has found another one of my relatives (DYER dads side) who I have been looking for for two years !!!
Elizabeth I have found The Lunatic Asylu, it is called Fisherton Lunatic Asylum though and is actually in Salisbury, but he was buried in Devizes Cemetery but in Salisbury. (The Aslyum is called the Old Manor Hospital and is still there !!!!- was told this by Salisbury Library) But thank you so much Elizabeth for trying and taking time to look, I really do appreciate it and im so excited as I gather more information.
Rian, I did actually do that too, paid to go on Scotland and searched but found no names that matched whatsoever even taking Dates into account. Its just like he appeared on the planet !!! I have posted on the Ireland board in the hope that someone might have a McLaven in their tree. The only other thing is was he Jewish and was he originally Laven. If this is so then that Sydney Laven on the 1881 may well be him. But its all just guessing, and its finding a Edward that fitted the bill. (there is an Edward in Stratford Essex) But if hes LAVEN and if that his him then it says he was born in Marylebone....and i cant find his birth either? Infact...this Sydney was on that one census but I can not find him again !!! AAGGHHHRRRRRRRR.
Ragna :o
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Are these his sons?
All registered in Wandsworth Registration District, London, Surrey. Per Ancestry.
Sydney Howard McLaven
October - December 1896
Douglas McLaven
July - September 1899
Lawrence W. McLaven
January - March 1902
Frank Ernest McLaven
July - September 1904
Regards,
Josephine
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Josephine
Yes, they were all his sons.
Thank you so much
Ragna ;D
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Ragna,
Oh, rats. ;)
I was hoping the last two were from a secret, other wife and that their birth records would reveal her name and miraculously allow us to find her and Frederick George Sydney in 1901! (That shows you what kind of family background I come from.) :D
Regards,
Josephine
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Josephine...
Just think he didnt want to conform, and unless he has been badly miscribed which is possible as I had a TERREY under a PERRY. Perhaps I need to now accept that I wont find his birth :(
I have tried to find a list of employees at Claridges but whatever I put in it says no results...Not sure what im doing wrong ? (on the 1901 census)
Ragna ;D
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Ragna,
Claridges might not have been indexed as such in the 1901 census. (If that's where you're searching.)
I was wondering if maybe he was in hospital the night the 1901 census was taken.
This website has a listing of institutions that were listed separately in the 1901 census:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jeffery.knaggs/Instuts.html
I was looking through one set and noticed that most people were listed only by their initials. What a drag.
I received a copy of my grandfather's military record a few years ago. What a shocker! Dear old grandpa was treated for gonorrhea twice while in the military... and from one report, it's clear he didn't get it from his wife. Well, he's long gone from this earth, so I don't have to worry about looking him in the eye. :)
Regards,
Josephine
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Josephine
Thank you I was unaware that only initals were used so I guess there was a good chance he was in some form of institution.
I have found nothing on Claridges although there are other hotels on there ? Yet i know it was there as I have checked on its history. (only a guess where he worked anywhere could have been anywhere)
However...correct me if I am wrong but if I put in his name in the search it would come up whever he was wouldnt it ?
Oooops at your Grandad !! and the young think they invented it lol lol lol .....have a lot to learn from our Victorian ancestors I think !!
Noticed you in Ontario...beautiful place...visted it many moons ago when i was 15
Ragna ;D
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Ragna
Claridges Hotel starts around RG13/82 folio 150 page 36
It's address is 49 Brook Street.
Have only just found this out so haven't looked through all the names yet.
You can do that while you get the baby to sleep 8)
Nite
Carol x
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Ragna,
My grandfather served in the Second World War as a young married man so he was closer to our times. I had to provide a copy of his death certificate to prove he had been dead 20 years (or whatever the requirement is here in Canada; I can't remember). But now I'm afraid to order my other grandfather's records from the Second World War, LOL!
If Sydney was enumerated by his name (and it was spelled and then transcribed correctly), then it should come up, no matter where he was.
One day you might end up going through the Battersea census page by page the way I've done for some American and Canadian cities and towns. If you do, record your notes in a notebook, so you never lose them.
If he was born about 1867, he should have been enumerated somewhere in 1871, 1881, 1891 & 1901. The fact that we haven't been able to find him in even one of these makes me wonder if, as you said, he changed his name, or his name has been totally mistranscribed each time, or he was in institutions his whole life and was always listed by his initials. But I tried searching on S G F and none of the surnames seemed to fit. But that's assuming they would have used all three initials. Even if he moved to England the day before his wedding, he should be somewhere nearby in 1901, since he and his wife continued to have children together. And he was using the surname McLaven by then. I wouldn't expect a hotel clerk to have to travel for his work.
I'm in Toronto. Maybe Sydney George Frederick has decided to haunt me because the Ontario McLavens aren't responding to his nudges. :)
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi there ;D
Firstly thank you Carol for the Census link (and baby was actually asleep by 9pm shockingly last night !!!) but when I put that into Ancestry it wont let the page come up even if I used Brook Street as keywords...What am I doing wrong ? I tried the same on the 1901 census website on the reference search but it kept coming up with no results !! I know its me doing something wrong..(again lol)
Josephine, what you have said makes perfect sense this is why I am feeling so frustrated because i know that he must be there somewhere. Perhaps I am totally wrong about what hotel he worked at and like you say should look closer to home...Will have a look today at what hotels were nearer. I know that he was working there up until the December before he went to the asylum (1903) as it said so in the medical notes.
Thanking you both again.
Ragna ;D
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Ragna,
I'm trying to go around this sideways to see if we can get any hints anywhere but it's not coming easily.
FreeBMD has a marriage for a John Patterson McLaven in July - September 1862 in Oakham Registration District. I thought I'd try to track him in the census to see how he was enumerated and transcribed but he's proving elusive, too.
I wonder how that surname was pronounced and "sounded out" for spelling by a Scotsman! ???
In the 1871 census of Wales, there's a John Paterson Leman, married, born about 1839 in Rosshire, Scotland. He's a seaman on board a ship. But I can't find any little Lemans in Wales in 1871 and I can't find the guy in 1881. So much for that idea! :)
Regards,
Josephine
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HI Girls
It dawned on me that McLaven could also have been mistranscribed as McLaren,although as we have found there are a few called McLaven,so it must have been a surname in it's own right.
I'm now sitting here like a nellie,reapeating Mclaven over and over in my head in as Scottish an accent as I can muster, to work out what else it could be ;D ;D ;D
Always said you have to be mad to be a genealogist.
Carol x
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Gawd I love you lot on here !!! ;D
LAUGHED out loud thinking of you sitting there saying !!! (love to see look on the face of your family !)
On Sydneys son, Sydneys Army Records he was incorrectly put down as MCLAYEN. .....
Just found that out..so off to check Ancestry for that !!
Ragna ;D
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Ragna,
You probably already know this, but I'll mention it just in case. When checking for someone named Sydney, I always search on sid* and syd*.
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi McLaven detectives
I was married to a Scot for a long time and lived in Edinburgh for a number of them, and I would guess at it being pronounced Mc LAYven. Sydney isn't a really common Scots name though.....
I tried looking for Sydney (with varients) in Camberwell and viewing any names that could have been mistranscriptions, but I couldn't find him then either. I hate to give up, but can't think what else to do.
Will keep trying though...
Good luck, Rian.
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"McLaven detectives"! ;D
LOL, Rian!
I've spent the day trying to figure out how a family member's gedcom which also contained my data wound up in a third party's private family tree on Ancestry. I've cracked the case and hopefully can turn a clear eye towards the mysterious Mr. McLaven soon.
I haven't given up, either, but he's a slippery one, that's for sure! If only we could find him in one measly census year (I'm shaking my fist at the heavens as I write this)!
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi Fellow McLaven Detectives. ;D
Josephine, thank you ::) I havent always done that so I will now.
Rian,and everyone else thank you for keep trying i too have tried so many varients too and never got anywhere close. The only ever Sydney that is close is the Sydney LAVEN on the 1881 census. Right area, Right Date of Birth & would tie in with family rumour of the MC being added. And yet I can not find him anywhere else and a Marylebone Birth does not exist.
Ill be honest I am very close to giving up as I have exausted all avenues and carry on with other lines..but Im haunted by the medical notes and I can not stand being beaten !!!
Ragna :D
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Detective Ragna,
Would you please tell us about that rumour? Who passed it on and what was said?
Regards,
Josephine
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Well Detective Josephine ;D
The Family rumour was that we were Jewish as LAVEN is a Jewish name and because of the Anti semitisum in the 1800's they added a Mc. How true this is though ?
I did leave a message on a Genelogy site that had a Jewish board but they never got back to me..
Ragna 8) (With Columbo Coat on...lol )
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Ragna,
You can never tell with names. My Jewish ancestor's surname was Barnett, which I had assumed was an "English" name.
Now, I can't find any data on my g-g-grandmother, Sarah Pope, who was born about 1845 in Whitechapel (according to two censuses taken after her marriage). I sent away for the matching birth record but tracked the family in the census and that Sarah Pope (the only one born 1845 in Whitechapel) died before the 1851 census. Bah. On her marriage record, she said her father's name was Robert, but I've tracked the Robert Popes who had daughters named Sarah (born in Middlesex), even those Sarahs whose ages were way out, and they aren't the right families.
I'm pretty sure I have her with my g-g-grandfather in 1871 and I definitely have them in 1881. Nothing before & nothing after. My g-g-grandfather died in 1883 in the Bethnal Green workhouse hospital, so who knows if Sarah died or remarried or went into the poor house or what. There are too many Sarah Georges to tell. I can't track her son (my g-grandfather) in 1891 or 1901. Was he in the poor house or a charity school and listed by his initials? Maybe so. I've exhausted all possibilities that are available online at the moment. I'll never give up, though. :)
There was another guy with the same name as my g-grandfather, born the same year, living in the same city. Can you believe it? Luckily, my aunt had his birth and marriage records, so we know which one isn't him, even though we can't find him, LOL.
Our less-well-off or poor ancestors are much harder to track, especially if they moved around, or couldn't make up what year they were born or where they were born.
Anyway, my point when I started (several paragraphs ago) was that now I'm wondering about Sarah Pope's origins, although you'd think Pope would be anything but a Jewish name! :D
I recently talked to someone with the same surname as my mother's maiden name. His given name is Irish. Turns out his mother is Irish and his father is Greek; the family name was shortened and Anglicized at some point.
Oh, well, we Rootschatters always love a good challenge!
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi there again ;D
Thought you might like to see the man that has given me & many of you so much grief in trying to find his Birth....I would like to introduce you to Mr Sidney George Frederick McLaven. (only got the picture yesterday so as you can imagine Im thrilled ;D)
If the image is not there, I didn't read the instuctions right and I will have to try again !
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Ragna,
Thanks for posting his photo! Wherever did you get it?
He was a good-looking man with a kind face.
I keep thinking about him and wondering how on earth we can find him.
Regards,
Josephine
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Is that a Jewish nose??
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Hi there
Well I spent the weekend at my Mums going through all the photographs and this one had been sent to her from our Canadian relatives along with some others of his sons (my granddad and his brothers) shes let me bring them home to scan, Im having a fabulous time ;D When I saw his picture I felt really emotional (silly i know)
My next step is to contact another of my Great Uncles children to see if they have any more information or any more photos.
Yes, he does look he has a jewish nose. ??? I wonder eh? Perhaps I need to concentrate on the Laven more ?
Ragna ;D
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Hi folks,
Not sure if this will help as you might already have the info, but there is an entry for Sydney McClaven's son (Sydney Howard McClaven) on the CWGC site.
Son of Fanny and the late Sydney McLaven, of 16c, Sutton Buildings, Chelsea, London.
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=142793
Mick :)
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Hello MTH
Thank you so much. Yes we did find this a while ago and my Uncle infact visited his grave in Belgium last year. As you can imagine it was very moving as he had been the first one to ever visit it.
The dreadful thing about Sydney Jnr is that he had learning difficultes and my Granddad (His younger brother) was always fuming that he was ever allowed to join the army in the first place. I was fortunate enough to be able to get hold of the Diary from the Regiment and so can work out when he actually died. Such sad reading again :(
Thank you again for pointing this out to me ;D
Ragna ;D
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I'll just say that my Scottish rellies had big honkers and they definitely were not Jewish! ;D
My best friend in high school was Jewish (Dutch & German) and she had a small nose.
Frederick Sydney, etc.'s given names don't seem like Jewish names although that probably doesn't mean anything, either.
If only we could find him in one census, for goodness' sake! ???
Come on, Mr. Laven-McLaven, where are you?! ;)
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi Josephine
Good point about the names and noses lol ;D
I have actually sat through the births on Ancestry.co. uk for pages and pages seeing if there was anything at all that could remotely be like him.
Silly Question but in that time when they went to get married, did they require their Birth Certificate. Reason I am asking is he put his fathers name as Edward McLaven but perhaps this was just made up if he did'nt have to supply any certificates.
Sydney Frederick and George do sound very english.
Sigh back to the drawing board ...
Ragna ;D
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Hi, Ragna :)
I've read that they didn't have to provide any identification when they got married. So, yes, people could lie about their father's names or give wrong information because they were mistaken.
I'm sure my Sarah Pope gave the wrong father's name on her marriage record and I curse her daily for it. :D I just don't know if it was because she was mistaken, the clerk or minister made an error, of if she made it up out of whole cloth because she was illegitimate.
I sent away for the only birth that matched what I had in the census and it was for the wrong girl. Sarah's birth might not have been registered, for all I know.
Ever since finding out that my Barnett Barnett was Jewish, I wonder about the other families I can't track. For all I know, Sarah Pope was Sarah Popeskizw or Popesky or Popoff. (My head's about to pop off.)
It's good that you've trawled through the index pages on Ancestry; even though you didn't find him, at least you know for sure that he's not there.
If only you knew where he was born, you could inquire about baptismal records.
Have you seen this website:
http://www.hiddenlives.org.uk/
Regards,
Josephine
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Just going to throw my tuppence worth in!!
I reckon the Sydney you have on the 1881 is your man, and did he have any brothers? there is a Thomas Levin born Marylebone 1871 1a 519.
Don't forget Sydney Tafler (Jewish actor) I concede over George and Frederick...Back to Sydney,after being in the Reformitory ...tut tut, bad boy,he probably changed his name..
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Hey, Miss Oonagh,
I'm so confused. Where in 1881 & under what name?
I agree that a name change is possible for a variety of reasons.
Thanks!
Josephine
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Ooops sorry Josephine,
Ive been pootling around another site.As Ragna said there is a Sydney Lavin in Wandsworth Reformitory school....
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Hello again ;D
Thank you for that site Hidden Lives, no I had not seen it before (damn you google lol)
Right, I have just spoken to one of my mum cousins who has his Fathers diary (one of Sidneys sons) and in it they mention Sydney George Frederick with May 1st by the side which may well be his Birthday....Is it possible to check against one Date for all children born on that day ???? If this is the case and that date is correct, he was born May 1st 1867.
As for the Thomas Levins...that is a thought. Perhaps the name was transcribed totally wrong.
Thanks again for all your imput again
I will find his birth..i will find his birth...i will find his birth
Ragna :o
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Hi Ragna,
The key clue(s) here are: Sydney's father is a farmer and awfully long string of forenames possibly points to Scotland or Northern Ireland. Possibly on the Borders.
Irish usually would use two forenames but that was not commonplace even with the farming families.
One thing bugs me the whole time when I read this post is: it should be relatively easy to find him in the censuses. If it is "impossible," it sounds like he was from Ireland himself.
But if he is Irish, his name was very unusual--the clue lies with his parents--wondering if it is worth your time to put a wee request in with a website that would do a look up in a birth index for only one pound per year. Since you are confident that he was born in 1 May around 1867. Trouble is that we do not know which was his first forename he may be registered with!
Here is the website to try out: www.familyulster.com
However, I would like to know where do you get the information that he was born in Marylebone if I read this post correctly.
I browse the BMD and found two possible Edward deaths for you--perhaps it would be worthwhile to check it out?
Mar 1865 Lepine, Edward 1a 402
Dec 1874 Laffin, Edward Age 41 1a 436
This got me intrigued due to three forenames being used:
June 1864 LeBean (?) Louis Maurice Etienne 1a 365
All in Marylebone.
Farmer?? This occupation got me thinking--it is highly unlikely that your man is Jewish because many Jewish immigrants came to England and they tended to stay in the cities.
I think it is very likely your Sydney may be from Ireland or Scotland. I would caution you that the surname may be erroneously spelt which is very common in Ireland--I had trouble in locating my great granny's from there.
I wish you the best of luck and every success in finding your man!
Kind regards,
Tees
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Hi Tees
I have put in a search on the website you suggested ~Thank you.
The information about the 1881 census was because I found a Sydney Laven (aged 14) at Wandsworth Reformatory Boys School and his place of birth was given as Marylebone. I have tried in vain to find this Sydney without success even checking out varients. It may be him, but then again may not ? If it isn't him, I dont know where he is !
On his marriage Certificate in 1885 Edward his father is still alive (presuming he has given the right information)
I think you are most probably right about the spelling. I had this problem with another branch of my tree where it was transcribed as PERRY but was infact TERREY.
Thank you again,
Ragna ;D
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Hi Ragna
Don't give up — there are so many badly transcribed pages of the census, and with a name like that it could well have been mistranscribed.
My Kennett Garner was down as Kenneth Turner and I only found him because he was a lodger in his future wife's house.
In a single page of transcript I have found more than 20 mistakes (I kid you not!).
I would go along with the idea that he was Scots or Irish. Maybe his other rellies will have a clue for you. I do hope so!
Good luck, Rian.
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Hi Ragna,
I have tried to find your man in various sources! Could not find him. ???
However, your 1881 Census finding got me wondered--is it possible for you to find his records at this institution? (To find out why he was in there and to see if there is any extra details that can be of use to you to trace back?)
We need to eliminate him or not, safely.
I was amazed at how phonetically this surname can be changed...Lavey, Levey, MacLeavy, McLeavy, Leavy, McLafen. (All of this from FamilySearch! For Scottish & Irish entries and some English ones)
Like Rian said, do not give up!! Hang on there! I am sure somehow we will find him somewhere! :)
Is it possible for you to find more information from your elderly rellies? Any clue as to his origins? I am sure someone "remembers" somewhere someone has said blah blah about the family's origins.
And do try again to find him in 1901 Census as it is our best bet to work backward from it--I am sure there is a reason why he was not correctly transcribed!
Regards,
Tees
PS My great-grandpa was incorrectly transcribed under his middle name!! It took some figuring out that his family was mine! I think it may be the same case for your great-grandfather.
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Claridges in 1901 is enumerated at/from RG13/82 folio 149 p36.
Can't see him just yet either in the hotel or immediately nearby, but the handwriting is a little tricky...
Anna
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Thank you...will go and have a look 8)
How did you find it as I had been having problems? I also need to find Clarendon and Connaught as its possible he worked there too (family comments that the hotel began with a C)
You can't beat Rootschatters ;D
Ragna ;D
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I also need to find Clarendon and Connaught as its possible he worked there too (family comments that the hotel began with a C)
Love those family rumours!
Unfortunately I don't think he's at Claridges, Ragna - or at least I can't see him.
To find Claridges I used a well-known search engine (LOL) to find out who was the manager of Claridges in 1901 (it apparently only opened a couple of years before, so they recruited him from Monte Carlo). He was a Swiss fellow named Henri Menge. Looked him up in 1901 and reasonably quickly found him as Harry Mange, one of two "heads" of household at Claridges.
You *will* find Sydney! He must be out there somewhere.
Anna
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Here are some clues to other hotels:
http://www.milesfaster.co.uk/information/history-of-london-hotels.htm
Clarendon Hotel on New Bond Street
Clarendon Hotel on Albemarle Street
http://www.clarendonhotel.com/
Regards,
Josephine
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The Connaught / Coburg:
http://www.the-connaught.co.uk/about_the_connaught/default.asp
"In 1897 The Coburg Hotel duly opened... It was re-named The Connaught in 1917..."
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi Ragna
Dunno if this is of any help to you:
I found an Edward Lavin as a farm labourer living with his family at the dwelling place called "Blackwater" in St Agnes, Cornwall in 1881.
RG 11 Piece/Folio 2308/57 pg 4
He was the head...perhaps this is the "farmer" we were looking for?
Do try to find this family in 1871 and backwards. Hopefully, someone will be able to assist you.
Regards,
Tees
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Following on from Tees,
In 1871 they are in Crantock, Cornwall:
Edward, 31
Maria, 31
Samuel, 7
Henry, 3
Mary, mother, 50,
Samuel Glanile(?), father-in-law, 70
1881:
Edward, 41
Mary, 41
Samuel, 18
Henry, 13
Annie, 6
Frederick C., 2
Earnest, 8 months
Regards,
Josephine
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Thanks, Josephine for helping out a bit! :)
We can safely discount this census finding.
I guess it is very likely Sydney is from Scotland or (Northern) Ireland.
Like someone said that Douglas is very Scottish name.
Very likely he does have some connection with the Scottish roots.
Wondering if Sydney can be used as a surname? Perhaps he was a illegitimate but was adopted by Edward as his son?
Just thoughts!!
-Tees
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Tees,
You are probably right.
If only they had had antibiotics back then, he probably wouldn't have died so young and left his wife and young children behind. :'(
When I was young, I admired so many things from the 1800s. My mother always reminded me that it wasn't so great back then because it was before antibiotics and people could die from a sinus infection. In our allergy-ridden family, that really hit home!
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi Josephine,
How true!! Life back then is tough for many people who were afflicted with ailments that can be easily treated nowadays.
I am sorry for Ragna because if he had been lived a bit longer, surely, one of his children would be able to pass some information that is of a better quality onto her.
Hi Ragna,
I put this post up on Scotland board in hope of someone recognising the name or helping you out with a bit of detective work.
Hope you do not mind!! It sometimes help having more RCers to see what they can find.
Kind regards,
Tees
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Hi Ragna
My immediate thought was McLaven sounds more of an Irish 'Mc' than a Scottish one.
Have a look on this site
http://www.spatial-literacy.org/UCLnames/default.aspx
It seems there are not enough McLavens to feature but Laven is originally Irish/Celtic.
Don't know that this gets you much further forward but it's an interesting site!
Trish
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Thank you to each and everyone of you ;D
Its so lovely that you all are trying to help. One thing that has just struck me that their first born child was called HOWARD SYDNEY aka SYDNEY HOWARD. Perhaps Howard is a clue to his father, or brother ? or they just liked the name ?
Agree with everything that has been said and I think you may be right and he was an orphan ?
Thank you for putting in Scotland although I think I did leave a post there a long time ago and never had much luck but anything is worth a go, (also posted on Irish boards)
I just feel like im going round in circles to be honest and never seem to get any futher forward than what I was three years ago when this search started.
I have been unable to contact the children of Douglas McLaven, who I wonder may hold some more clues. Perhaps I should concentrate on tracing them !
I spoke to Lawrences son, who is lovely, the other day on phone, we have never met. He was the one that gave me the Date 1st May against Sydneys name.
Very interesting you should say about Laven being Irish Celtic because we were always under the impression it was very much Jewish.
Any other clues Ill let you know :P
Ragna ;D
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Hi Ragna,
The only Laven/McLaven/Lavin birth I could find with 1 May date is this:
George Tresidder Hernaman John Lavin born on 1 May 1865 and was christened on 3 July 1870 in Paul, Cornwall.
His parents were: Edward Lavin & Georgiana Carbin Tresidder.
May I suggest that you would have to search a bit harder for his records at this orphanage? I am sure they do have his birth date and any information on his parentage.
It is possible that his father remarried but his second wife did not want him and any siblings he may had. Father probably had no choice but to put him in orphanage??
Or somewhere else with his relations--his or his wife's.
I think he may had changed his forenames for some reasons.
Explore every avenue till you exhausted them all! :)
Best wishes,
Tees
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I am so confused. ;)
Oonagh, good point about name changes, etc.
Tees, which orphanage is Ragna checking? Ragna, have you already contacted them?
Thanks!
Josephine
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Ooops sorry Josephine,
Ive been pootling around another site.As Ragna said there is a Sydney Lavin in Wandsworth Reformitory school....
Hi Josephine,
Confused? So am I!! I think it has a lot to do with the surname itself!
Oh, as to the orphanage--I meant the Wandsworth Reformitory school above. Would they have a detailed record on him? As to why he was there and any biological data such as his actual name & birth date & parentage, etc...
OK-we need to be a bit flexible on the surname now:
Lavin
Laven
Lafen
Lavey
Levey
Laffin
Mclaven
McLaven
McLavery
You get an idea--why did Ragna dismiss a George Lavin in 1901 Census--one in Battlesea area?? Isn't it in the same area as his wife and children?
I think Ragna will get an answer from the website I gave her today to see if her g grandfather was in the Irish GRO birth indexes or not.
I think her g grandfather may use one of his forenames for the census purposes--who would introduce one's self to someone with a multi-forenames and a surname? I doubt--I think he would introduce himself by using any of the forenames he had.
We will never know what's his preferred forename. Or his parents' preferred name for him.
That is trouble with having a multi-forename!
Kind regards,
Tees
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Ragna,
If you think your g grandfather is Jewish, then that means his surname may be:
Levy
Lefi
Levi
Leven
Something like that along that line.
But I highly doubt it because I have not seen any Jew(s) using Irish surname in the 19th Century--it was not exactly a good surname to use due to the poor image attached to the Irish.
I think the Jews would prefer using the English surnames.
Having a "prefix" of Mc to the surname is quite Irish one. Yes, Trish did have a good point about this one--the reason I said Scotland is that some Irish would go to Scotland instead of England.
-Tees
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Hi Ragna,
I spotted this one last night--
Frederick Lever Cannon
Christened on 22 May 1867
Parents: William Cannon & Mary Ann
Wondering if this is yours? Perhaps his mother was married to a Lever but was pregnant with him at the time of his father's demise?
I will take another look at this entry to see where it was taken in. I had forgotten to note this information--sorry about that!
Kind regards,
Tees
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Thanks, Tees.
Yes, I agree that it would be worthwhile for Ragna to enquire about the Wandsworth Reformatory and that person's records, just in case there are any identifying details that would rule him in or out. Good thinking, both you & Oonagh. ;)
Ragna will have to confirm this but I believe his medical records list his given names as:
1. Sydney
2. George
3. Frederick
On Ancestry's marriage index, his given names are listed as: Sydney George F.
Of course, we don't know if all of those names are on his birth or baptismal record and, if so, if they are in the same order. I've seen many instances of given names (usually two) being switched around in various documents.
We should be able to find him in 1901. If only he had been listed with his wife and children!
I tried to find the George you mentioned in 1901 but it didn't come up in the index on Ancestry. Would you please give me a few more details so I can look at it? Was this person married but apart from his family and employed as a hotel clerk?
Since his marriage and medical records list him first as Sydney, and they are around the 1901 mark, I would expect him to list himself as Sydney, unless of course that wasn't technically his first name... Oh, argh. The same with using McLaven on official documents around that time, unless the name was mistranscribed...
Thanks!
Josephine
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Post 1855, Scotlandspeople has 1 McLaven birth, marriage and death.
Pre 1885, it has 4 McLaven births, and 2 marriages.
Might be worth buying £6 of credits to have a proper look at the index and certificates.
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And don't forget that good old Scottish surname McLaren.
Just incase the V was misread as an R many years ago.
I seem to recall that right back at the beginning of this post somewhere, being told that one of the sons was named Douglas- to me a VERY Scottish name.
Carol
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Hi Carol,
Yes--you were correct that someone had said that Douglas is very Scottish name on this post. :)
Ragna,
I am giving you other possible spelling variants on Carol's suggested surname of McLaren.
McLaren
McLawrin
McLaurin
McClearn
Laring
McLaron
By the way, what was the age of your g grandfather on his marriage cert?
It is such shame that England was late in instituting the rule for a death certificate to contains a birth date & birthplace--surely, it would make your life a bit easier to find out where he was!
Have tried all variants on Edward McLaren marriages in the hope of tracing your Sydney through them. Could not find him.
I think he may be from Ireland originally. I hope you did ask for all possible variants on the surname as well as his forenames--that will be extremely helpful instead of being wholly specific about his name in birth indexes.
But he named one of his children a Douglas is another issue to consider about!! It points us in other direction to Scotland or his Scottish connection via his parents. Does your g grandmother has any Scottish heritage?
Kind regards,
Tees
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Hello there all again ;D
Will go through the posts one by one.
Tees ~ I have contacted the Metropolitan London Archives today and they are checking to see if there is any information about Wandsworth Boys home. They will get back to me ;D
Still awaiting an answer from the Ulster site to see if he was possibly there.
His prefered name was definately SYDNEY because he is called that on the Marriage Certificate and on the Medical records they have put a (1) (2) against the names and Sydney is (1)
Yet, his death is FREDERICK GEORGE SYDNEY.
Age at marriage is 28 (both of them)
Josephine ~ I think that perhaps he is definately transcribed wrong on the 1901 census. Is it possible to check out an address 1 Acorn Place Peckham because this is where Fannys Sister at point lived (Sydneys wife) Having said that I think that perhaps at one time I have. Trouble is this has been going on for so long, you end up going round in circles.
Scotmum ~ Thank you so much. I did actually pay the £6 a while ago and checked it out but did not find anything that remotely matched. Might be worth double checking though again.
Carol ~ Yes the name Douglas definatley suggest Scotland. The sons were called Howard Sydney, Douglas, Lawrence and Frank Earnest.
Think the way forward is the Varients which I will start sifting through names tonight ;D
THANK YOU EVERYONE AGAIN ;D
Ragna ;D ;D
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Tees ~ I have contacted the Metropolitan London Archives today and they are checking to see if there is any information about Wandsworth Boys home. They will get back to me ;D
Still awaiting an answer from the Ulster site to see if he was possibly there.
His prefered name was definately SYDNEY because he is called that on the Marriage Certificate and on the Medical records they have put a (1) (2) against the names and Sydney is (1)
Yet, his death is FREDERICK GEORGE SYDNEY.
Age at marriage is 28 (both of them)
Think the way forward is the Varients which I will start sifting through names tonight ;D
Hi Ragna,
Glad you already contact the Metropolitan London Archives. Hope they will give you heaps of information you are seeking! :)
Re: Sydney's forenames--I agree with you on all the points. Trouble is that we do not know which forenames in order his parents may had registered/baptised him under. I won't be surprised if he was under entirely different forenames! Let's hope it doesn't come to that!! It will only confuse you and us even more!
Varients on the surnames is the way to go in searching for him in the censuses.
I will keep eye on this post as it is very interesting to see how this research progresses--hopefully, a more experienced RCer like Valda and others will take on this as they did amazing jobs of smashing many brickwalls for many RCers here. :)
Sorry I can't be of more help at this point! Awaiting your findings from the Archives and the Ulster website with much interest!
Kind regards,
Tees
PS Why does my spell checker kept saying that my original spelling of varient was wrong and changed it to variant??
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Hi Ragna
Have you seen this one in the 1891 census?
Does anyone know if you had to be a qualified teacher to be a school inspector?(I don't even know if the teachers had to be qualified). Is there a record of inspectors somewhere and when/where they worked? If he went down in the world and became a hotel assistant later....
Mother is a widow, but look at the grandson's name.
RG number: RG12 Piece: 4021 Folio: 72 Page: 2
Reg. District: Middlesbrough
Address: Thornaby House, Thornaby Road, Thornaby
MCLAVEN, Ann Head Widow F 64 Supported By Family Middlesex London
MCLAVEN, George Son Single M 24 School Attendance Officer Middlesex London
WILSON, Edward Grandson M 13 Scholar South Stockton Yorkshire
WILSON, Annie Granddaughter F 9 Scholar South Stockton Yorkshire
Also this one, but it does look like Mclay on the original:
RG12 Piece:82 Folio:29 Page:22
St George Hanover Square
St Margarets Westminster
Address:
1, National Club, Whitehall Gardens, Westminster
MCLAY, Fred Servant Single M 26 Hall Porter b Chelsea London
Straws are being eagerly grabbed!
This is my tuppence worth for the day...
Rian.
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Hi Rian!
Good finding!! Can you go backward to 1871 and 1881 to see if this 1891 Census info matches?
I think it is a good chance this George is Sydney.
I better wait until someone could confirm the info from 1871 and 1881 censuses!
I think Ragna would be very pleased with your findings.
Kind regards,
Tees
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Hi there ;D
That really does look like him !!! Thank you Rian, I am going to pursue this more tonight.
Wait for this one, I have been on a certain site for years and have just noticed that two of my mums cousins (McLavens) are on there...which is the missing one i was after, so I have contacted them this evening !! Keep fingers crossed they bring us more information.
Perhaps we are getting somewhere.
THANK YOU AGAIN (Gosh I seem to be doing a lot of this to you lovely people)
Ragna
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Hi Ragna,
Here is 1881 Census info--dunno if it is any use to you:
William McLaren Head 51 Born Scotland School Warden
Ann McLaren Wife 52 Born Middlesex, London School Warden
George Alfred McLaren Son 14 Born Middlesex, London
Milk Seller
This can be found on RG11 Piece/Folio 4863/110 pg 16
Alfred can be "modified" as Frederick to suit his taste??
However, I like the Fred Mclay a bit better because he was porter according to your documents.
Will continue looking for a suitable McLaren.
Smile...
Tees
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Hi Ragna,
I find two possible birth entries for you. Unfortunately, they do not match up with our findings!!
Here are:
Maclure Male in Mar Qtr 1866 Marylebone 1a 466
Maclaren Robert Archibald J in June Qtr 1867 Marylebone 1a 469 (This is possibly a May birth--worth a try to check the parentage out.)
I think this is one we should pay attention to:
McClaren George A in Dec Qtr 1866 Westminster 1a 368
I think you have two good candidates: one registered as Male and other in Westminster.
Good Luck,
Tees
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Hi Ragna,
There was a Mclay family in Battlesea area (at 69 Tenneyson St) in 1881!!
One daughter has three forenames just like your Stanley--HOWEVER, this family were headed by two different parents.
Still searching...back to Fred Mclay--noticed that he was working in Westmister area---wondering if there is his family living nearby??
Kind regards,
Tees
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Hi Ragna
Would it be worth writing to the managemnet of the national club to see if they have staff records (just in case it is your Sydney/Fred who was working there in 1891)?
Here's a link to the wikipaedia entry
http://www.answers.com/topic/national-liberal-club
Rian.
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Hi there again ;D.
I can sit today and go through the indexes for births for 64/65/66/67. What excites me about Fred Mclay is that I can find no birth for him and he is not on any other Census which makes me conclude that its a transcription error. Im unsure about the others although there is always a possibilty.
I will get in contact with with the club, what excites me about this is that my Mum mentioned a while ago that he worked one time at a Gentlemens Club..Is this it ??? Hope they will more helpful than Claridges who never even bothered getting back to me.
Keep fingers crossed that my other relatives get in contact as they have some vital imformation. Can Just imagine it now...."oh yeah we have his birth certificate lol" AGGHHRRR.
The very helpful woman at the Metropolitan yesterday said it might pay me to go in there and check through the parish registers for Births Baptisms in the Marylebone area.
Still awaiting for their phone call back
Still awaiting for the irish link to email me back
Thank you :o
Will keep you informed.
Ragna ;D
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Hi Ragna,
Claridges was founded in 1812 as the 'Mivart's', the hotel became 'Claridge's' in 1854 when William and Marianne Claridge acquired the hotel. Source: The Best Afternoon Teas in London
(http://www.elegant-lifestyle.com/afternoon-teas.htm) © 2001-2007 Elegant-Lifestyle Ltd.
I wonder who founded the hotel and what's the story of it being sold to the Claridge family. Could your Great Grandfather Mc Laven have been related to the original founders of the hotel or even to the Claridge family? Maybe his family lost their wealth and the well to do members didn't want to know them. The reference to the ownership of Claridges on his medical records is strange as I feel that the doctors would have verified the facts. If they didn't I feel that your Great Grandfather must have been reasonably well known for that type of information to be entered on to his records.
I've linked the McLAVEN's in Ireland (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=209791.new#new) thread to this one.
Hi Ragna
Have you seen this one in the 1891 census?
Does anyone know if you had to be a qualified teacher to be a school inspector?(I don't even know if the teachers had to be qualified). Is there a record of inspectors somewhere and when/where they worked? If he went down in the world and became a hotel assistant later.......
Rian.
Rian,
I couldn't see a reply to your query re School Inspectors. I think the situation may have been much the same as today ... Learn Direct ... Careers Advice ... Schools Inspector. (http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/helpwithyourcareer/jobprofiles/profiles/profile798)
Christopher
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Thank you so much Christopher, for helping but also giving me the push to start my search again. 8)
I havnt posted for months, and after banging my head against a brick wall decided to give it a few months off, but back again to continue this search. I have spoken to many members of the family, and no one has been able to shed any more light on our elusive Sydney McLaven.
In light of everything, I am convinced of a few things. (but not 100%)
1. that he was most likely British decent because of the names of his children (and most likely Scottish?) ? Douglas/Howard/Frank/Laurence - names of his children.
2. He was never in a good job, the family were poor, he was a hotel porter at the age of 37, so most likely did this sort of job all his life. He had to go to the poorhouse hospital when he was taken ill.
Thank you again for everyone that brought me on so far last time I attempted to find out more.
I've joined up with Ancestry again, but a little confused because I dont appear to be able to attach documents ...(is it just me, or is anyone else having this problem)
Off to have a read at recent posts, and put some input into this great site.
Ragna ::)
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To all the past McLaven Detectives ::)
Two and half years later and I've only just found out some more information after giving up for a while. ;D
After checking the 1911 census (Sidney himself had died in 1907) I found his wife working at Cox's Hotel, Jermyn Street in London. Her two eldest sons (this was a shocker) were a Boys Home in Kingham Oxford. My grandfather Frank was living with her sister, but I can not find the other son Laurance. i contacted Kingham Oxford who were kind enough to look through their records and this week they sent me the admission document. It gave me some really interesting information.
Sidney Frederick George McLaven worked as a night porter at the Cecil Hotel in the Strand. (up until he was ill in Dec 1903)This was a huge hotel from the sounds of it with over 800 rooms. However I am unable to find him on either the 1901 or 1991 census. But ...if he was night porter i guess he would not be there but in bed sleeping somewhere ?
So finally i know where he worked - although I've never got any further finding his birth or anything :(
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Hello Ragna,
Long time - no speak ;D
Glad that the 1911 has helped a little. I think we've all found that.
I have the baptism of Frank Ernest McLaven- parents Sydney George Frederick and Fanny.
It was on 5th August 1904- Frank was born on 23rd May 1904.
It says dad was a porter and the family's address was 27 Surrey Lane.
It took place at St Mary's Battersea.
Regards
Carol
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I am a little excited by what I may have found.
After finding that both Sidney and Douglas (Sidneys sons) were transcribed as McLaren I thought I'd go down that line.
I have found a Sandy McLaren of the same birthdate in Wandsworth prison and it says he comes from Scotland and is a cook. Sidney was a Hotel Porter though. (grasping at straws maybe here) If this is so, and he had a Scot accent could Sidney sound like Sandy ? I've tried to find if Sandy comes up on any of the other census but can't find anything that fits him perfectly. However, the only thing here that bothers me is that it's unlikely that he would have got such a good job at Cecil Hotel ? or perhaps he lied ?
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Hi Ragna
Sandy is normally a common variant for Alexander in Scotland.
Monica :)
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Thank you so much Monica ....this might be why I can't find a Sandy. ::)
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I've had some information today that Sydney Frederick George McLaven birthday is 1st May 1867 (this was in a book from a distant relative)
Is there anywhere I can check births on a particular day ?
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Hi All
Was really interested to discover this post as I have just discovered this family for a friend of mine!!
The lost son is listed as Laurie Laren in 1911 and is with his mothers brother Samuel Terry at 19 Hartington Road, Brockhurst!!!
Unfortunately I have no news on Sydney or Edward!!!!!!
Looking forward to seeing more on here!!
Suziq
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Hello all you will have to bare with me as i’m new to here but i have been interested in my family history so i’m trying to see what i can find out.
I am matthew mclaven (29) son of William d mclaven (59) who is the son of william mclaven whos brother is Frank mclaven who moved to canada early in his life ( teens ). Does anyone have a diagram or would care to explain how far you have gone back . Many thanks matthew