RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Carole B on Friday 19 January 07 17:36 GMT (UK)
-
This is my first post here and I am very new to genealogical research...so my aim is to seek advice from those who know the best approach to such things.
I am seeking ANY details at all about my maternal grandmother, but mainly details about her death. The only thing I know about her is her name: Nina Edmed. I don't know where or when she was born. I was told that she died during a bombing raid on Dover (Kent) 'some time' during WW2 and that is the sum total of my knowledge of her!!!
For family reasons she had cut herself off from my mother (her only child) and it seems had lied consistently throughout my mothers life about her origins. Mother was refused a copy of her birth certificate, but one which with the exception of the second name and surname fitted my mother's and grandmother's details, was eventually obtained from Somerset House in the 60's.
I have written to the Registrar at Ramsgate in Kent asking if they can provide a death certificate, but they advised me that many records, both civil and church were destroyed during the raids on Dover. They added that they could find no trace of grandmother's death in the remaining records .
So where can I turn to now? Is there any other way of discovering where and when she died? I thought that perhaps newspapers of the time might carry lists of civilians killed, but would they still have such things (if they ever existed)?
Her life was one of constant subterfuge - I call her 'Naughty Nina' as I feel almost sure that she was an unmarried mother (shock-horror in 1913.... ::)) and subsequently 'lived with' my grandfather for some time. They are both named on mothers birth certificate. But mother was told that he died during WW1.
The story does have many 'twists and turns', but she does seem to have succeeded in taking her secrets to the grave !
-
Hi Carole,
Welcome to Rootschat.
Have you tried checking the complete death registers for the war years yourself?
Free on Ancestry.co.uk at the minute.
I have actually been through and looked for you and can't see anything. But i may have missed something.
Local newspapers are a good idea, they would have copies at a local library.
You should be able to find a fair few details on your grandfather if he died in world war one. Try http://www.cwgc.org/
Kev. ;D
-
Hi Carole
Welcome to Rootschat :D
I've also had a quick squint at the Death Register but couldn't see anything. I can't see a birth for a Nina Edmed on FreeBMD although that isn't complete - was this her "married" or maiden name? I can't see her in 1901 either. What are her details on your mum's birth certificate? Of course she may have died under another name if she subsequently married.
Jan ;)
-
Hi Carole
Welcome to Rootschat
Have you had a look through the following pages
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gareth.moore7/index.html
http://www.doverpages.co.uk/dover_names/victims_ww2_dover.htm
Casalguidi
-
Hi Carole, and I'd like to echo that Warm Welcome to Rootschat, and thank you for such a deliberate question!
The only thing I'd like to add is have you checked out http://www.cwgc.org 'cos they also list civilian dead from WW2?
It's funny isn't how things draw you to a post......I once knew a lovely lady (ex RAF) called Nina - it's not a name you hear nowdays.
Much luck with your search
Wendi :)
-
She doesn't appear on cwgc (there are no female Edmeds at all).
But there is one male from WW1:
EDMED, WALTER S.
Rank: Lance Corporal
Regiment/Service: Durham Light Infantry
Unit Text: 1st/6th Bn.
Age: 34
Date of Death: 14/04/1917
Service No: 204476
Additional information: Son of Catherine A. Ferguson (formerly Edmed), of 93, Hedley St., South Shields, Co. Durham, and the late Samuel Edmed.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 8.
Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL
Is he yours?
If you go through that site and just put in "Civilian", "WW2", and do it by one year at a time, and put in her first initial only and no surname, you will get quite a few to check. It's easier later in the war, as there are fewer of them; they won't allow you to search the early years of the war because there are too many. This way, you can get the broadest possible perspective on her name. It may not have originally been Nina either; that could be a diminutive.
-
I am totally overwhelmed - I just cannot believe the speed with which you wonderful people have responded to what I though would be little more than a waste of time. I have been disappointed at my inability to know where to turn to, and yet here you all are extending possible further hope to me.
I will look at all your suggestions over the weekend and see 'what's what'. Then I'll know (I hope) the best route to follow.
Would it be allowed (of any use) for me to post a link on this thread to the 'Naughty Nina' story as I know it? It does have many twists and turns, but she (Nina) did such a superb job in covering her tracks that I fear I will never solve the puzzle :'( and discover her 'hidden millions' (ha ha ha) I'm not serious!!! In fact from what my mother told me, they we're like the proverbial 'church mice'......
BTW - Just as an aside...all (most) of my investigations nowadays have to be conducted via the Internet and E-Mail as I now live in northern Italy (near Lake Como).
-
Lake Como, very nice ;D
Post whatever links you like Carole.
Do you fancy posting your grandfathers details. We may be able to work from him to her and find something.
Kev. ;D
-
The surname Edmed has a one name study researcher registered with the 'Guild of One Name Studies'.
http://www.one-name.org/
The researcher lives in Kent.
'A one-name study is a project researching all occurrences of a surname, as opposed to a particular pedigree (ancestors of one person) or descendancy (descendants of one person or couple). Some "one-namers" may restrict their research geographically, perhaps to one country, but true one-namers collect all occurrences world-wide. The Guild only accepts true one-name studies for registration, although anyone with an interest in one-name studies is welcome to become a member.'
As a member of the Guild researchers
'... must agree to deal with all reply-paid enquiries and emails that you receive relating to your registered surname(s).'
Regards
Valda
-
Carole if you click on your own name at the left of any of the posts you have made, it leads you to your profile, and under "Rootschat Profile Information" you can edit your profile to include your location. :D
And of course if you click on someone elses name you can read their profile ( it often helps when replying to a post )
Wendi :)
-
Hi Carole
I think I've seen your story on another forum ;)
It's probably not a good idea to post a link to another forum on here although it is permissable to post links to other "sites" of interest.
In trying to sort the wood from the trees ........................
what exactly does it say on your mother's birth certificate ie.
where born
name
name & surname of father
name, surname & maiden surname of mother
occupation of father
name, description & address of informant
Casalguidi :)
-
Hi,
The 'link' that I wanted to post would have been an 'url' to open a copy of the details that I have to date.
I do have a scanner - but not being a 'techie' ::) I haven't worked out how to make the thing scan anything yet!!!!! So the only way I can find to post 'what I know' is by cut and paste here.
It may need two posts though (Sorry...)
PAGE 1
Nina Edmed - Dates remembered.
Nina Edmed - Grandmother
Parents: Unknown
DOB: Unknown
Place of birth: Unknown
Date of death: Between 1940 and 1945
Place of death: In or near Dover, Kent, England (?)
Muriel Mèrcia Payne - Mother
DOB: 27 May 1913
Parents
Mother: Nina Edmed.
Father: Arthur Payne (deceased) as declared on Marriage Certificate.
Profession: Painter and decorator (journeyman)
aka
Muriel Edith Offley - Mother
DOB: 27 May 1913
Died: 22 May 1973
Parents
Mother: Nina Edmed.
Father: Arthur Offley. As shown on Birth Certificate
Profession: Commission Agent
Both resident at 15 The Crescent, South Road, Handsworth. Birmingham
Points Remembered.
My mother – then known as Muriel Mèrcia Payne may have attended Cheltenham Ladies College as a ‘boarder’ sometime around or after 9 years of age – so on or after 1922. N.B. A search by the Archivist at this school has shown nothing. I must however confess that the two responses I had from her clearly indicated that she did NOT read the information fully, as she did part of the search on my mothers ‘married name’…..
Muriel never spoke about school holidays or where she went during these. The only mention of a ‘home’ was that of Shakespeare’s First House at New Place, Stratford-on-Avon where she remembered a (supposedly famous) mulberry bush in the garden. There was never any mention of ‘owning’ this house – just that they ‘lived’ there.
But why was Nina there during this time? (sugar daddy maybe?)
There was never any mention by my mother of Arthur Payne, the supposed father – just that she was told by Nina that he died in WW1 (1914-18). So where was he when Muriel Edith Offley’s birth was registered. There are too many coincidences for these to be two different sets of people (Muriel Mèrcia and Muriel Edith). But why TWO fathers with ‘similar names’?
The only ‘common factor’ in it all is Nina Edmed….. (if that was her real ‘full’ name)
I have no idea where mother was baptised, but remember that when asked if she was Church of England she always replied “No – High Church of England” (whatever that means).
-
Page 2
My view of the story!
Over time, thinking about the few things I did sort of know, I had thought that this may have been - at least - a possible scenario, and 'at worst' little more than romantic 'twaddle'. So for what it's worth here are my ideas on ‘how it might have been’!
Nina worked in the same place as Arthur (Offley). They had an affair, the result of which was little Muriel Edith. Born 27 May 1913. Her birth was registered on 8 July 1913 at Handsworth, Birmingham - nearly six weeks after the birth. This registration shows Nina Edmed as the mother and Arthur Offley as the father. So I think that Arthur then probably gradually receded into the background - never to be seen again (the cad), and illegitimacy - being what it was in those days - had to be hidden.
At this point Nina had to move to where she wasn't known and invent a poor 'dead' husband (Arthur Payne) and with that of course the illegitimate daughter's details had to be the same, to save poor Nina's dignity. So in effect Muriel Edith Offley became Muriel Mèrcia Payne.
A new 'employer' (sugar daddy?) was found and the scam had to continue. He (whoever he was), perhaps didn't want another man's child around so was quite happy to pay for her to go away to a school that would fit in with 'his' standard of life'. Cheltenham Ladies College is not that far from Stratford-on Avon. I think he did indeed live in, and perhaps 'own' New Place in Stratford-on-Avon. Then Muriel, who's poor Daddy 'died' in the war (the subterfuge story) spent her holidays there and went (perhaps) to America on one of these holidays, when still only a toddler, with mama Nina and sugar daddy! This trip is supported by a photograph taken of my mother as a ‘toddler’ by an American Photographic establishment in New York.
Then when Muriel grows up she meets a dashing army Cavalry Captain (true), but falls in love with his 'groom'. Now Muriel needs her birth certificate to be able to marry.
Oh disaster! What is Nina to do now?
Well I think she feigned indignation, saying that her daughter was marrying 'beneath herself' and that if she went ahead with it she would 'be cut off for ever'....This was what my mother (Muriel) always told me. So the birth certificate was refused by Nina. She’s got to cover her 'dark' past at all costs (wicked old female dog). As long as Nina's reputation is preserved, never mind about the daughter! So to be able to marry Muriel had to make a declaration that her details were “true to the best of her knowledge”!
Now to sustain this 'You're banned from my life' charade, Nina has to disappear from where her daughter can find her. So where better than to the area where (perhaps) she may have been born - Kent. Maybe she found a position, or was still with the first sugar daddy/employer/consort or even with another employer. Who knows? Sufficient that Muriel can't find her and so disclose her ongoing lies. Then she is killed (most likely) during a bombing raid in the Dover area. But what name was she using? Nina Edmed - or had she by now invented some other 'fantasy life'? It seems that during these years she kept in touch with two old friends in Handsworth, but swore them to secrecy about her lies. She may have listed them as people to inform if anything happened to her. Hence their (limited?) knowledge of her death. I was with my Mother when she questioned this elderly couple in 1961 and they really didn't want to talk about it. But the impression we got was that Nina HAD lied.
So that is my theory, having pieced together all the little bits of the jig-saw. The problem remains though - that Nina amid all her shame and stupidity kept the most important pieces of this jig-saw to herself and took them to the grave!
With most grateful thanks for any help you may be able to offer....
Carole B.
-
Carole,
This maybe something??
1901 census: Sandgate, Folkstone
There is an Arthur Offley (servant) with a Clara EDMED (servant) both working for Herbert Simons(grocer). He was born Willenhall, Stafford and she was born Charing, Kent. Both born in 1877
RG13 848 folio 90 page 10.
Kev.
-
Births Jun 1878
Edmed Clara Ellen J W. Ashford 2a 713
(initial F on FreeBMD but checked on GRO index and it is J)
West Ashford registration district covers Charing
Which makes this entry just a bit interesting - no other Clara Ellen Js.
Marriages Mar 1898
Edmed Clara Ellen J Greenwich 1d 1134
either
FOX Arthur Greenwich 1d 1134
or
Screve Leonard Thomas S Greenwich 1d 1134
No other Clara birth registrations in Kent.
Regards
Valda
-
1891 census RG12 698 folio 19
High Street Charing Kent
William J Edmed 43 Ashford, Kent, Head Married Plumber & Painter
Clara J Edmed 39 British Subject, Belgium Wife Married
Clara E J Edmed 13 Charing, Kent, Daughter
William G Edmed 11 Charing, Kent, Son
Lizzie M Edmed 9 Charing, Kent, Daughter
Daisy A Edmed 5 Charing, Kent, Daughter
John M Edmed 3 Charing, Kent, Son
Alice Sweetlove 33 British Subject, Belgium Single Visitor
plus 1 servant
Clara Edmed junior intriguingly gives her status as single in 1901 and is using her maiden name.
Regards
Valda
-
The only other incidence of the surname Screve in FreeBMD occur in West Ashford registration district. There are only these two.
Births Mar 1899
Screve Rosamond W. Ashford 2a 834
Deaths Sep 1899
Screve Rosamund 0 W. Ashford 2a 573
There are no Screves in any England & Wales, Isle of Mann and Channel Island census indexes 1841-1901 that I have checked.
Divorce was difficult and expensive for a woman to obtain pre the First World War. She would need to prove adultery and desertion or cruelty. Desertion alone would not be enough. If Clara was deserted that might very well be the reason why she was unable legally to marry Arthur Offley if this is the correct woman.
Regards
Valda
-
Marriages Mar 1877
Edmed William James W. Ashford 2a 825
Sweetlove Clara Jane W. Ashford 2a 825
Screve appears to be a French surname.
1871 census RG10 956 folio 27
High Street Charing Kent
Simmonds J Sweetlove 19 Belgium Boarder Unmarried Painter(Apprentice)
William J Edmed 23 Ashford, Kent, Boarder Unmarried Painter Plumber & Glazier
This is the only Sweetlove born Belgium on the 1871 census. On the 1881 census there are three.
RG11 174 folio 68
5 Upper Park Road Hampstead St Johns London
Mary T. Sweetlove 37 Ostend (B S), Belgium Servant Unmarried Housemaid
And more interestingly
RG11 919 folio 32
Angel Hotel 1 High Street Tonbridge Kent
Elizabeth Sweetlove 32 Brussells, Belgium Lodger Unmarried
Adolphe Sweetlove 9 Rouen, France Lodger
Leonard Sweetlove 4 Brussells, Belgium Lodger
1861 census RG9 394 folio 45
11 St. Nicholas Street Deptford St Paul Kent
Jane Sweetlove 37 Berwick on Tweed Widow
Elizabeth Sweetlove 13 Ostend Belgium Daughter
Clara Sweetlove 10 Ostend, Belgium Daughter
Simmonds Sweetlove 8 Ostend, Belgium Son
Marriages Mar 1898
Edmed Clara Ellen J Greenwich 1d 1134
Screve Leonard Thomas S Greenwich 1d 1134
Leonard Sweetlove, Clara's cousin would appear to have been illegitimate - was his father's name Screve? On Leonard Thomas Screve's marriage the S. might be for Sweetlove.
Regards
Valda
-
Interesting use of the surname Payne in the Sweetlove family. It might very well be a coincidence or it could indicate why the choice of the Payne alias.
Marriages Mar 1878
Sweetlove Simmonds John W Ashford 2a 821
possible spouse
Buller Alice Ann W. Ashford 2a 821
Births Dec 1879
Sweetlove Simmonds Payne W.Ashford 2a 719
Deaths Sep 1880
SWEETLOVE Simmonds John 28 W. Ashford 2a 409
Simmonds junior is on the 1881 census with his mother and older sister in Charing.
Marriages Dec 1901
SWEETLOVE Simmonds Payne Farnham 2a 223
either
COCKERTON Cecilia Charlotte Farnham 2a 223
or
Green Alice Louise Farnham 2a 223
Regards
Valda
-
Have been reading the above postings with great interest. It certainly is a challenge to get to the truth. Here's a few thoughts:
1. Clara Ellen J. Ehmed, daughter of William James Ehmed & Clara Jane Sweetlove, born 1878 West Ashford, Kent area.
2. Clara Ellen J. Ehmed marries 1898 Leonard Thomas S. Screve (her cousin?).
3. Leonard & Clara Screve have a daughter Rosamond Screve, born Jan-Mar.1899 West Ashford, Kent area.
4. Rosamond Screve died a few months later in July-Sept.1899.
5. At this point perhaps the marriage of Leonard & Clara Sreve breaks up. Have been unable to locate Leonard in 1901 Census.
6. Clara Ehmed, born Charing Kent 1877, is servant at Sandgate in 1901. Also found is Arthur Offley (possible father of Muriel).
7. Muriel born 27 May 1913. Father listed as Arthur Offley. Living at Handsworth, Birmingham.
8. Muriel's marriage gives father as Arthur Payne, painter & decorator. It's most likely that Muriel's mother had told her these details. Now, Clara's father was painter & plumber. Also, According to information I found posted on ancestry.com William Sweetlove from Ashford Kent (right area) married Anna Payne (is this where father's surname on marriage certificate came from?) and moved to Belgium in 1830s/1840s.
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
-
Clara Jane Sweetlove's mother would appear to be called Jane born Berwick on Tweed - see 1861 census entry in Deptford. I think the Sweetlove family were possibly in Greenwich by 1841.
I'm not sure who William Sweetlove from West Ashford was or when he married Anna Payne can you give specific details?
Regards
Valda
-
A bit far back to make a connection to at least immediately?
Kent, Surrey, London: - Canterbury Marriage Licences, 1781-1809
Volume 32
fol 123 1786
County: Kent
Wm Sweetlove of Ashford grazier bach & Ann Paine of the s sp. 20 Sep 1786.
You would need the details from Clara Sweetlove and William Edmed's marriage for Clara's father's name.
Regards
Valda
-
I know the connection is back a bit but it does bring the surname Payne into the Sweetlove family. The point is that maybe Muriel's mother put together a story by taking bits from here and there. What I was suggesting is only a series of possibilites.
-
The Greenwich Sweetloves also use the first name of Simmonds. The oldest Simmonds Sweetlove I can find was born Wye Kent circa 1793.
Regards
Valda
-
This might be the most likely marriage for Clara's parents.
Marriages Jun 1847
Sweetlove Simmons John Bermondsey 4 15
either
MACE Jane Bermondsey 4 15
or
Paxton Emma Bermondsey 4 15
or
Rossiter Leonora Bermondsey 4 15
or
Taylor Mary Ann Bermondsey 4 15
but Clara's marriage details would be necessary to confirm or eliminate this possibility.
Regards
Valda
-
I'm so sorry - I'm finding all these new names very confusing.
In truth, as I explained in the two page 'story and known details' post - I can go NO further back really than my mothers marriage certificate (1936) and her birth certificate (1913).
I am - at this stage anyway - NOT looking to go further back than perhaps the birth of my grandmother who was, as explained, known to me only as Nina Edmed. I would be so pleased to know the following about her:
When she was born.
Where she was born.
Who (if anyone) did she marry.
Where/when did she marry.
When did she die.
Where did she die.
At the moment anything beyond that I wouldn't know what to do with.
Sorry. It's just that I NEVER expected such a huge and detailed response. If I'm honest - I really didn't expect to get anywhere at all with so little information. Just shows doesn't it!
I just don't know where to go from here.....
-
'Nina' did not die between 1940-1945 in England according to the GRO indexes with a death registration in the surname Edmed whatever her first name on her death registration was.
Have you checked whether a death took place in Kent between 1940-1945 for a Nina (or a Clara) Payne or Offley?
You can check the GRO indexes here
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx
If you find a possible/s death, the age and name at death might give the necessary to proof to connect your 'Nina' (probably a petname) to the information which has been given you, or help eliminate Clara Ellen Jane Edmed as a possibility for 'Nina'. What you know already is there is no birth registration for a Nina Edmed in England and Wales, so if she was born in England she was born with a different first name to 'Nina' and at this point the hypothesis is it was Clara Ellen J.
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Carole,
I think the main points are these, which may lead to you being able to find something out about "Nina"
Carole,
This maybe something??
1901 census: Sandgate, Folkstone
There is an Arthur Offley (servant) with a Clara EDMED (servant) both working for Herbert Simons(grocer). He was born Willenhall, Stafford and she was born Charing, Kent. Both born in 1877
RG13 848 folio 90 page 10.
Kev.
Then:
Births Jun 1878
Edmed Clara Ellen J W. Ashford 2a 713
(initial F on FreeBMD but checked on GRO index and it is J)
West Ashford registration district covers Charing
Which makes this entry just a bit interesting - no other Clara Ellen Js.
Marriages Mar 1898
Edmed Clara Ellen J Greenwich 1d 1134
either
FOX Arthur Greenwich 1d 1134
or
Screve Leonard Thomas S Greenwich 1d 1134
No other Clara birth registrations in Kent.
Regards
Valda
And the fact that Clara gives her status as single and is using her maiden name in 1901, which hits at something being amiss.
These hopefully answer some of the questions about when and where she was born, who she married(first anyway).
It may not be her, but it looks really promising.
Kev. ;D
-
Carole, what is happening here is that people are going further back in history in order to find good clues to help you answer the more modern questions that you are asking, since, as you know, the answers are not readily evident. This is the way genealogy sometimes needs to be done.
Just to (hopefully) throw some perspective on it, I have a rellie who had an "illegitimate" son at the age of 25 while unmarried. She kept the child, but his birth certificate information is, shall we say, "creative", in other words it is not accurate. I would have looked in vain for her death if someone had not tipped me off to the fact that she had married much later. She both married and died under a different combination of forenames than the ones she was born with, and each was different from the other. And her surname at death was her married name. She lived to be almost 100, so it turned out that there were a lot of years to cover!
-
Sorry. It's just that I NEVER expected such a huge and detailed response. If I'm honest - I really didn't expect to get anywhere at all with so little information. Just shows doesn't it!
I just don't know where to go from here.....
Carole
You have unleashed the combined forces of the Rootschat detectives ;D
As loo says you often need to go backwards to make sense of what happened later. With one of my illegitmate ancestors I had to do a lot of tracking over the censuses and births and marriages in order to connect the putative father from East Horsley Surrey with the mother in Lilley Herts - it was very exciting when it all came together. So hang on in there - hopefully it will all make sense when you have had time to ponder all the information. Kev gives a good summary of the main points.
Happy hunting
Jan ;)
-
And of course you can still contact the one name researcher for Edmed as he is likely to hold all the civil registration entries for the surname and can tell you if he has any death registrations for a Clara E J Edmed and or a Nina Edmed which if her death was registered in that surname would be quicker than searching the civil registration index.
Regards
Valda
-
:) Such an interesting thread.
I do hope you can unravel all the info and find your family.
All I can add is the Mulberry Tree was at Anne Hathaway's House,
but it blew down in a storm. I looked for that tree in 1999 and found
a replacement had been planted, in the same place in the garden.
Best of luck. Lesanne.
http://www.stratford.co.uk/prop3.asp
-
In light of the huge amount of assistance and information you have all provided here, I think it only fair that I let you know ''what's what' by providing a 'temporary' update.
With any luck ??? we (you ) have found some details of Nina Edmed. But dear oh dear - what a tangled web she wove.... Birth's registered twice - in slightly different names. Possible flight to the USA while letting people think she had died in the war. Possibly born in Egypt (which I previously had discounted.....) Oh the list of possibilities that we are near to finding out who she was are numerous.
One thing seems to be clear though - the thought of 'millions in cash' lying in a bank vault with my name on it ;D, has now moved to be 'millions, yes...but in possible family members when I thought there was just ME - far more rewarding than €£$ - what do you reckon?
I will try and put together a more comprehensive resumè of 'where we're at' and post it for you soon.
In the meantime - thank you all for your help (even if you have almost scared me to death with the volume of it :-*). It is greatly appreciated!
-
Hi Carole
Glad to hear you are making some progress with your Nina - look forward to seeing the details.
Yes agree finding possible family members is very exciting ;D
Jan ;)
-
Since my last 'update' in January things have moved on slowly but surely (well almost...).
I finally found the proof that the Muriel Edith Edmed born in Cairo, Egypt in 1891 was in fact 'my lost Nina'. That she married a Charles Newcombe on 25.12.1911 in Wandsworth, London. 18 months later had an illegitimate child (my mother), then registered her birth TWICE. Then in 1924 she married a Richard Henry Gunter in Islington and she was shown as divorced from Newcombe.
Then - who knows... as next I - finally - discover her death record and that long awaited Death Certificate has now finally arrived. I now know that she died on 18th March 1949 in her home (now) in Chiswick, following a brain hemorrhage. But interestingly her death was reported by her 'sister-in-law' - one E.R.Edmed. Now this was yet another twist in the tail and made me notice another 'missed' snippet of information....let me explain.
Nina had two brothers:
No1. Frederick William - born Alessandria Egypt 1889.
Married Katie Savill 1913.
No2. Claude Victor Edmed - born Malta 1895.
Married Lily M.A. Tyson 1922.
Claude was a witness at Nina's first marriage to Charles Newcombe.
F.W. Edmed (Frederick William?) and E.R.Edmed were both witnesses at Nina's second marriage to Richard Henry Gunter in 1924.
So the question arises - What happened to Fredericks FIRST wife Katie.... she is one of a large farming family from Saffron Walden and shows on the 1891 Census. I can find NO trace of her death.
BUT
On that 1891 Census Katie is shown to have a younger sister Emily Ruth...could this girl have become Frederick’s second wife E.R.Edmed?
AND another thought....
Richard Henry (or as he is often shown - Henry Gunter) had one daughter from his first marriage - she was born in 1900 and named Emily! I wonder what her middle name was (if she had one)?
So far I have not found any trace of the deaths of ANY of the Edmed family whatsoever - apart from that of Muriel Edith (Nina) in 1949 and my own mother!
So I am searching for ANY of the following deaths (or other marriages) - if anyone has any ideas or can help...
1. Frederick William Edmed (1st) b.1863
2. Mary Ellen Edmed (nee Stapleton) b.1886 Halifax Nova Scotia
3. Frederick William Edmed (2nd) b. 1889 Alessandria Egypt.
4. Katie Edmed (nee Savill) b. about 1882 Saffron Walden.
5. Charles Newcombe b. about 1887 Camberwell London
6. Claude Victor Edmed b. 1895 Malta
7. Lily M...A. Tyson b. (Claude’s wife)
8. Richard Henry (or Henry Richard) Gunter b. about 1877 Wiltshire
9. Emily Gunter (Richard’s daughter) b. about 1900 – Islington London
I find it incredible that there seem to be no easily found records of these people’s deaths. Their marriages – yes. One or two births too. But their deaths are another matter entirely!
It's driving me up the wall.....
:-\
For the ongoing story see my 'Naughty Nina Saga' at:
http://www.caroleinitaly.com/thenaughtyninasaga.htm
Open and scroll down for episodes One and Two....
-
Have you accessed the divorce file at The National Archives
J 77/1906/9616 Divorce Court File: 9616. Appellant: Charles Newcombe. Respondent: Muriel Edith Newcombe. Co-respondent: Richard Gunter. Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd]. 1922
The case file should give further details of her life.
Emily's middle name appears to be Rose
Births Mar 1900
Gunter Emily Rose E Islington 1b 423
Regards
Valda
-
WOW - thank you so much for that information. I have been wallowing around the National Archives sections J77 and J78 for some time, and they might as well be written in Greek as far as I'm concerned. ::). I did inquire about a 'search' for the divorce file but was told that it was £40 for a ten year search and the period I knew was from 1912 to 1924 so I was looking at a possible £80 fee.... :'(
But after only a few hours here you are with dates and some details of that divorce and the middle name of Gunter's daughter - what a surprise that she was an "E.R.". I wonder if she did by any chance marry F.W. Edmed?
Thank you SO much for your help Valda, it is really appreciated - I will now order a copy of that divorce file from the NA.
-
The divorce files are being indexed by TNA and appear in their catalogue.
Regards
Valda
-
At www.novascotiagenealogy.com , there is a Mary E. Stapleton born 1869 Halifax to John and Mary (MULLOY? - hard to read). I realize the dates are out, but could be the same family. Apparently records for that period are incomplete.
It looks like this one married Frederick W. Edwards in 1886 in Halifax in the Church of England. A witness was Margt. Stapleton.
-
Thank you for looking 'loo'.
Yes these are my great grandparents. Frederick was stationed there with the Royal Irish Rifles and married Mary Ellen Stapleton in Halifax. She was just 17 and the daughter of John and Mary Mullay.
I have a copy of the 1886 marriage certificate of Frederick and Mary's marriage in Halifax. I got it on line through the www.novascotiagenealogy.com.
So this is the right Mary Ellen Stapleton/Edmed, but there is no trace of their deaths. They both show up in the 1901 census - with their children, but then she 'disappears' (?), but Frederick is shown as 'living' and a pensioner at his daughter Muriel Edith's wedding to Charles Newcombe on Christmas day 1911 in Wandsworth; and that's the last trace I can find of Frederick...
-
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2974218
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2326113
- this appears to be a mention of Frederick William's second wife E. R. as Emily Rose - they had a son Frederick Richard who was b. about 1923, and another Richard Victor b. abt 1924, both of whom died in WWII.
-
Oh my - this is incredible jorose... Yet another piece of the jigsaw falls into place - allbeit a very sad one. Two uncles I never new I had and sadly was never able to know.
Thank you so much for taking the time to look for and find this. I can now go on the hunt for the elusive marriage between Frederick and Emily Rose.
-
Hi there,
Fascinating information. One of your replies quotes:
This might be the most likely marriage for Clara's parents.
Marriages Jun 1847
Sweetlove Simmons John Bermondsey 4 15
either
MACE Jane Bermondsey 4 15
or
Paxton Emma Bermondsey 4 15
or
Rossiter Leonora Bermondsey 4 15
or
Taylor Mary Ann Bermondsey 4 15
but Clara's marriage details would be necessary to confirm or eliminate this possibility.
Regards
Valda
I am particularly interested in the 'Jane Mace' from Bermondsey. Have you found out anything about her family and whether she features on your ancestry? My grandmother's brother in law was Sidney John Mace, born in Bermondsey in or around 1886. Wondered if there might be a connection.
Can you let me know if you have any information on your Jane?
Thanks
'Time'
-
Hello Carole
I have Clara Ellen J. Edmed born June Qtr. 1878 daughter of Wm James Edmed marr Clara Jane Sweetlove.
Clara Jane Sweetlove b. 9 Sep 1850 in Ostend, Belgium, d. 24 Jun 1911 in Charing, Kent, is the daughter of Simmons John/Simmonds Joannes Sweetlove b. 1825 Ashford, Kent, marr to Jane Mace. Simmons died in 1859 in a fire together with his own father Thomas in the family Butcher's shop in Ostend, after this Jane brought her four children back to Kent, I have a copy of her Death Certificate in 1861 in Deptford and the Informant was a Sarah Mace presumably a sister or mother.
It was Thomas Sweetlove who emigrated to Ostend during 1830-40 and created the Belgian dynasty
Clara's 2 x GG is William Sweetlove marr to Anna Payne, her 3 GG is Thomas Sweetlove of Ashford, Kent.
Clara is on the Belgian branch of my Sweetlove tree, and her 3 x GG Thomas is also my 5 x GG.
Yes, there are many Simmonds/Simmons Sweetlove's in my tree, those in Greenwich are mine also, in fact my own 3 x GG is a Simmon/ds Sweetlove.
Regards,
Allesandra
-
I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I was helping Carole with her research and suggested this site. She promptly signed up and began this thread which really sparked her interest.
Sadly, Carole passed away mid August suddenly and unexpectedly. She will be sadly missed by those of us who knew and loved her.
I will be continuing her research in her memory and with her family's permission so if there is anyone who is still interested in helping I would appreciate it -
Thanks and have a great day.
-
Hi nuccia
So sorry to hear about Carole's death, very sad. However it is a lovely idea to continue with her research and if I can help at all I will. Maybe you could post if there is anything else you particularly want to find out?
Best wishes
Jan ;)
-
Hi Nuccia,
I was very sorry to hear about Carole, I will put a little note in Carole's profiles for any new replies to come through to you.
Regards
Sarah :)