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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Quinn on Saturday 13 January 07 16:40 GMT (UK)
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A 10 year search was finally ended with a chance discovery this past summer. My grandfather came from a family of 12 children, and all of them had been traced with the exception of one - Peter Albert Quinn.
In 10 years, all we had ever found on him was that he was born in Minneapolis in 1874, signed as a witness to his brother's marriage, and that he was basically "planted" in St. Anthony Cemetery in Minneapolis in 1909.
For a family historically known for huge funerals and wakes, this was very odd, indeed. In fact, it was odd enough that even the 1909 records from the cemetery noted it - all they had was the notation "early on the morning of 8 September, a woman named Ann entered the offices and purchased a plot. By 3 that afternoon, Peter Quinn was buried. No services...."
Obviously, something was very wrong here with his burial. But we couldn't find anything anywhere. Then back in July, I ran across a posting on a message board - someone had posted an old news article from a 1911 New York Times. It concerned the Quinn family, formerly of Minneapolis, leaving for Mitchell, South Dakota to file murder charges concerning their brother Peter Albert Quinn.
The search was on! It took literally MONTHS to get the paperwork here, and we are still looking for more. But the end result is: Peter Albert (Bert) Quinn was killed by the sheriff of Davison County, because the sheriff was trying to mess around with Bert's wife. The sheriff managed to get the death ruled a suicide.
Two years to the DAY after Bert was killed, the sheriff's wife turned up dead - found with same "evidence" as was found with Bert.
It's a very long story, but the end result is - the sheriff and Bert's wife were placed on trial - but NOT for murder! They were tried for adultery. Within 4 months of the sheriff's wife dying - the sheriff himself was found dead one morning in the town dump.
It's a long, convoluted story, but very interesting indeed. In fact, we are currently at work on a book about it - rivals any murder/suspense movie and book of today.
To top it off - thanks to one very "odd" remark my father used to say, until all of this surfaced, most records indicated the sheriff's death was accidental - froze to death. Once the paperwork arrived, and was dissected by my family - we realized WE were the ones, in fact the ONLY ones, who knew the real story behind the death of the sheriff.
Which was -- my grandfather got him!
Out of all of my searching, finding this was the hidden goldmine for information, and it suddenly made my family more interesting than ever. A 100 year old secret hidden by an entire family - until I came along and got a little too nosy for them all! LOL
Quinn
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Cant wait for the book!!!
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WOW!! Brilliant..
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You couldn't make it up, could you? What a find. Your persistence has paid off.
Cant wait for the book!!!
Will RootsChatters get a discount on the book? ;)
JULIAN
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What a story! Put me on the book list.
Nanny Jan
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You are something else Patty !! :D :D :D
See the orbs did it !! ..... gave you the insight to get all this fabulous information !! :D :D :D
Great story !
Annie :)
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Well, we always knew there was something "strange" in my family. No one would talk about the ancestors, no one would offer names or any help. We were always told no one was still alive, we were the last, etc.
Obviously, this was one reason for the secrecy. Now, we wonder - are there more like this out there??
Working on this book info has totally diverted me from researching family, that's for sure. And I hope it will all be worth it in the end. If nothing else, at least it will finally be documented for future generations.
It still floors me and the cousin helping me that the entire family managed to keep this completely secret for 100 years. Other than the one odd remark dad made now and then, no mention was EVER made of this event. It must have been very traumatic all the way around!
Patty Quinn
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Well done...what a fantastic story :) :) :) Can you put me on the book list too ;)
Elaine
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Everyone cross your fingers this project gets done and we get the book into publication!
Patty Quinn
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Absolutely fascinating - put me down too for the book.
Ellen
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What a wonderful story. Put me down for a book too.
Kath
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I just love your story. Nothing so thrilling in my family, so far, but lots of secrets (seems two ggparents died in mental institutions - never knew of this, even my mother did not, sounds as if it was in fact dementia/Alzheimers).
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A great bit of 'digging'! Put me on the list for a First Edition!
Jill
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Quinn: What an great story. Ever thought of writing a screenplay ?
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I think we all want signed copies, right?! ;D ;D
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Of course!
Nanny Jan
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I've never tried to write a screenplay before - it would be fun to at least attempt!
Maybe if I get the book done, and it sounds good, I could tackle that project.
Geeze! EVeryone just gave me a project to do for the next 10 years!! LOL ;D
Patty Quinn
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Well if you do get this down,(even as a synopsis) just make sure to post yourself a sealed, signed and dated copy .Just in case you decide to approach a TV Ancestry Programme with the story.
This will protect your intellectual rights .
Hope you do go ahead,it's fascinating.
Spring
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What a great story. Let us know when the book is available.
yn9man
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Absolutely fantastic, sounds like one of those thrillers on TV . . . Put me down for a copy please :D
Barbara 8)
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With all the interest it should make the best seller list.
yn9man
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Even tops the insane verdict I have for a distant relative (by marriage only)who murdered their local sheriff. ;D
I'd love to purchse the book or see the movie when it comes out. :)
BD
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Hate to be greedy ... but can I have two signed copies please ... one to keep and one for a present for a friend !!
What a truly amazing story ! I'm going to cut, paste and email it, if I may, to a friends daughter who writes rather off the wall scripts for short films ...
Ever considered yourself as a nominee for the Booker ?? I can see it coming !
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Yes, go ahead and cut and paste and send.
I've only given an extremely rough overview of the whole affair. It does get much more in depth - involving politicians of the time period being less than honest, refusals from the courts to accept results of a second autopsy that proved he was killed and did not commit suicide... in fact, for the time period - it was a VERY sordid affair all the way around!
I have started a very rough beginning already - am 3? 4? chapters into it.
Patty Quinn
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Well, Patty, I think you could persuade a publisher that you have worldwide interest in your book! Add me to the list, too!
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Patty,
My research took me to Scottish Court records as my great great grandfather, a butcher, was accused of selling tubercular meat. After looking at the documents it seems it was probably a set up! He lost his butcher shop as a result, and the case dragged on through nearly 20 years.
But nothing so interesting as your amazing story! I am curious to know what odd comment it was that your father used to say?
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In my family, especially on dad's side, no one was ever mentioned or talked about at all. It was as if they did not want us to find anyone or know that they were even alive.
But dad would sometimes make the oddest remark about his father. What he would say (sometimes for no reason at all) was:
"My dad went to South Dakota to get the man who killed his brother. He got him and he left."
With no information preceding this, and dad refused to ever tell us what this meant - we never had ANY idea what it could mean or refer to.
It was when these documents and papers came in that we were finally able to solve the mystery behind the remark!
Patty Quinn
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Wow, Patty!
Just found this thread. What a fantastic story!!! You must be so chuffed!!
MarieC
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By saying those things, I wonder if your dad didn't want to tell, but felt compelled to keep the secret. It would be a fascinating story to have and so hard not to want to tell it, especially after all the "players" were gone.
Do you know how your dad learned this story?
Kath
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It's rather odd, but apparently EVERYONE in the family during that time period knew about this. And even though gr-uncle Bert was killed in 1909 and dad was not born until 1916, he obviously knew all about it.
It's hard to explain, but grandda had 11 siblings. Of course all of them knew of it - it was their own brother. And Bert's children obviously knew it - they were there.
But as near as we can gather, other than Bert's children, no other children of any of the brothers and sisters knew about it - except for my dad. And now as we think about it, my aunts and uncles had to have known it, too.
How dad knew it - we are unclear on this. Dad swore that the entire family had died off long before he was born.
And yet, we have discovered that dad not only knew of his aunts and uncles, but some of them came to visit a time or two. And this information we ended up discovering through my grandmother's first husband's family, of all places!
No one in the family today can figure out why my dad was trying to make very sure that we would believe we had no living family at all. This goes off the topic a little, but it still adds to the family history and mystery of the whole bunch.
If I were to take what the census records show concerning all of grandda's family - in 1900, they all show their parents born in Ireland. In 1910, a couple of them (living in the same house with others) showed parents born in Northern Ireland. In 1920, more of them showed N. Ire.
Throughout these census records, my grandda always put Ireland. And grandda moved his family out of Minneapolis in 1915, and went to Iowa. And in 1930, ALL of the living siblings of grandda listed Northern Ireland as birthplace of the parents. Grandda put Irish Free State. AND, he had moved his family to Colorado by 1930, which TOTALLY separated the family forever.
Plus, by making this notation on the census records, unless a person knew for a fact that they were looking at the right person on the 1930 census record, and knew where he was located in 1930, they would NEVER connect the families together. Which in effect, separated them even further.
The family listing place of birth for their parents, and there being such a major discrepancy here - this tells me that the family as a whole may have split apart as they basically took sides concerning the war in Ireland.
When you would try to get dad to talk about his family history - he would say things like - my family was all hung for stealing sheep in Ireland; or they're all dead now, we're the last of the line; or the whole d**n bunch was no good, I never knew any of them.
When we tried to ask mom about what she knew (after dad had passed away) mom would say things such as - you don't want to be digging into THAT family. You'd be finding some skeletons in the closet you'd wish you'd NEVER found. One of her more "dire" remarks would be - they were all a bunch of no good killers, don't be trying to find ANY of that bunch!
So, it was precisely BECAUSE of these remarks that I went searching for my family. Which led to the discoveries in the census records of how the family split apart over Irish politics and affairs, and ultimately led to finding the story of gr-uncle Bert.
Patty Quinn
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I am hanging (is that a good word to use when murder is involved ?) on your every word ... this is so exciting ! Makes all my ag labs here, and the ones in the covered wagon in Canada look very bland !
And I particularly like the way you are giving us the story bit by bit ...
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And I particularly like the way you are giving us the story bit by bit ...
I don't - I want it all...NOW!!
Jill
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Get off of Rootschat now and start writing!! I can't wait for the book.
Kath
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I'm writing, I'm writing!! I promise I am!! LOL
Would I be safe in saying that sometimes the more weird the family, the better the stuff when you find it? LOL
Patty Quinn
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I guess as long as it is far enough in the past not to upset anyone. Maybe that was what bothered your dad.
We have a couple skeletons (not as exciting as yours for sure) and one is fairly recent, affecting my dad's generation, and we can't even talk about it, let alone add them...er, I mean it, to my tree. ;) (For god's sake, the man was an ob/gyn. You would think he would know better...)
Kath
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Its wonderful to find a little mystery and naughtiness in the ancestors. I have some minor mysteries but I bet if I ever find the truth there will be there is nothing there really. Some people's idea of shocking and reprehensible behaviour in the past is also more acceptable nowadays. It was at one time considered to be really a low, vulgar, and even immoral thing to be appearing onstage. ;D
There is a 'Black Sheep' website I believe, for those with 'interesting' ancestors. Isn't genealogy fascinating?
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My Mother told me at Christmas that one of my father's older sisters had married a bad'n, and had divorced. When my Father proposed to Mother in 1947 he sat her down and said he had something to tell her - he was worried that divorce in the family was a disgraceful thing, and thought she might refuse him.
Just as well she said it didn't matter or I would not be here!
Not as exciting as your tale, but reading the rest of the thread reminded me of how attitudes change.
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Speaking of it being once thought of as disgraceful and vulgar to be in show business.....
I also have a great uncle (brother to Bert) who ran away from home at an extremely young age, and joined the circus.
From there, he went on to be a stage actor for a period of time, and then transferred to working backstage. He was also involved in the forming of the Actor's Union, rising to the level of 2nd Vice President of it, and fought for fair wages for a day's work.
Patty Quinn
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Patty: what a great group of individualists you come from!
Who knows what other gems you will discover? Please let us know how things go. ;D
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OOOooo...Patty,
I'm gasping for air!! What a tale.
The talk of ancient disgraces reminds me of events around my great grandfather and his 2 sons who had a business importing chemist's supplies into Melbourne Aust.
[here] in the first decades of the 20th c.
They were found to be importing and distributing for sale contraceptive devices for women and there was hell to pay from the civic community! Letters and legal theats etc.
Amazing.
Sue
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For those that asked for more information:
I've put a condensed digest version of the synopsis that we have just wrote up in the past week or so on a site to read. If you are interested in hearing more details about my great uncle Bert, please take a look at:
http://searchinghistory.tripod.com/
Obviously, there are still facts missing from this digest. We are still researching and gathering paperwork and documentation. But at least it gives an overview of what we are up against, and what we have found.
Patty Quinn
Moderator Comment: topics merged, as people are asking questions on both topics
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Whoa - eat your heart out CSI/Law & order/Cold Case/Waking The dead!!! This is better than any thriller I've seen yet . . . .. . :o :o
Barbara 8)
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I sometimes wish my family weren't so ordinary ... there just doesn't seem to be any scandal, crimes, ill-gotten gains; no fortunes found and lost, etc. No convicts ... only one 'base-born' and one incestuous birth ... nothing else. The latter sounds just like the time we live in really ...
:( :( :(
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Great information Patty, and sad too. Difficult for ordinary people to get justice despite the obvious doubts.
Jean
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Most interesting !
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Patty,
Thanks for sharing this amazing family story! Wow! After reading what you had discovered, your father's remark sent shivers down my spine!
Regards,
Josephine
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Patty -
How can you spend time on Rootschat when you still have several chapters to write / finish?
yn9man
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A really wonderful piece of research! Even with the gaps it is a wonderful story.
Have you ever found any of Bert's children?
Nina
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Give her a break ... she needs at least ten minutes a day to get on here and have a laugh and chat to her friends ... or at least five mins.
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Ok, but no more. We are waiting you know. ;) ;)
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I enjoyed reading the expanded story. Wow, what a page-turner!
Regards,
Josephine
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Yes, we traced Bert's children to Nebraska and on to California. Both sons are obviously now gone.
But we have found some Quinns we very definitely believe are his grandchildren. And they are still living in the same area as his children were, in California.
We are trying our BEST to establish contact with them - so far, no luck.
Which is a huge disappointment - out of a family of 12 children, many did not marry, or married and had no children. And for a couple of them, the children died before marrying, or never had children themselves.
So, out of 12 children total, 5 had kids. And as of today, the total located (not counting Bert's) is 8 - me, my sister and brother, and 5 grandchildren of one more - of which I am in direct contact with 2, and indirect with the other 3.
They are all very elderly, so finding that Bert had grandchildren is very precious. Now, if we can only get them to contact us back!
Patty Quinn
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Any suggestions,I can't get the link posted earlier!!
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Excuse me LYDART
And pardon my ignorance but, What is
BASE-BORN??
Sue
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Excuse me LYDART
And pardon my ignorance but, What is
BASE-BORN??
Sue
I'm not Lydart, but I'll answer for one of me pals.
Base-born is a term that used to be used for illegitimate, born the wrong side of the blanket etc. Often to be found in parish records to describe an illegitimate child at baptism etc
Hope this helps
JULIAN
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Agreed ! I've got one of them so far ... but that's about as exciting as my tree gets ! Oh, and one case of mild incest (well, not so mild ... it resulted in a child, but on another branch that is really not our line ...)
Oh for a murderer, sheep stealer, bishop ... or possibly the three in one !!
;D ;D ;D
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Lydart,
Did the church records indicate that the child was the result of incest?
Regards,
Josephine
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We are talking two different children here ? I have one 'base-born' (as stated on the Dorset parish records from 17-- something), and the other child was the result of the daughter of one brother getting together with his brother (i.e. her uncle) and producing a child ? I think, from memory, they lived in Brighton ?
(Just thought ... puts a whole new meaning on 'naughty weekend in Brighton', doesn't it !)
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Quinn,would just like to say,
what a fascinating story,
pat on the back for research.
Bennett
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A great big thank you to all who have encouraged me in this project. Even though I devote many hours a day to trying to get everything organized and get at least a little writing done on it, I'm still a long way from finishing.
All of your encouragements have really helped me to push myself to get this project finished.
Thank you everyone!!
Patty Quinn
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Patty !
You're amazing ! ...... so much to do though huh ??!! .... don't let it daunt you !!
If you need any of us to do something .... just shout !! ( ....... except of course in Ireland !! ;D ;D ;D )
Good to see you Girl on a roll !!
Annie :)
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If you need any of us to do something .... just shout !!
Annie :)
I don't do ironing though, or windows :D :D
Barbara 8)
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Well.......... darn Tephra!! And here I was looking for someone to iron some of my quilt scraps so I could get busy on my quilt project! ;D
Patty
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Wow Patty What a great story.
When I read the bit about Bert supposedly having drunk carbolic acid I immediately thought "No that can't be right" Then getting to the bit about the sheriff's wife 'drinking' the same I thought then it had to be the sheriff who killed Bert and also his wife.
Sounds very much like the sheriff was of the type who thought because he was the law he was above the law. Glad Frank got him in the end. He didn't actually murder him did he. Just left him to sleep the drink off, just a coincidence it was freezing and the sheriff froze to death. He, the sheriff, shouldn't have drunk so much should he ;D
Jean
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Beware the demon drink .. . It'll get ya every time, well, in this case it did didn't it!! ;D ;D
Can't wait for the book to come out.
Sorry Patty, no ironing. :-\
Barbara 8)