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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: matilda1973 on Monday 15 January 07 12:31 GMT (UK)
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hi all,
My Mother in laws grand father was Nipton Hurn/ Hearne born c 1885 in Gloucester. he married Nellie Davis 1913 at cheltham reg office. Her father was James Davis General Hawker, and his John Hurn farm laborer .
i have no father info on Nellie and would love to know who she is and where she came from.
i have found Nipton in the 1901, 1891 census, under the name Ryals/ Riles with his parents John Riles and Triente (who was a Hurn) at some point between 1901 and 1913 he went to using his mothers maiden name of Hurn. would love to find a birth or baptism for him, and some info for John Riles/Ryalls and his parents.
John and Trientes children were:
Ada
Aldolphus
Caleb
Isaac
Nipton
Lily may
any ideas greatfully received many thanks Louise
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I guess this is the family you mean?
1891 RG12/2041 Folio 104 Page 21
Gipsy Caravan, Prestbury, Gloucestershire
John Riles 36 Pegmaker Wood Glos Cranham
Sciante? 38 Hawker Lincolnsh Peterborough
Ada 14 Employed at home Dom Herefordshire Westport?
Dalford 10 Herefordshire Camfroom?
Nephine 6 Glos Prestbury
Caleb 4 Glos Staverton
1901 RG13/2469 Folio 26 Page 8
Lower Field E/C H, Van and Tents Gipsies, Elmstone Hardwicke, Gloucestershire
John Ryals 44 Gipsy Licenced Hawk Cranham Glos
Tryfinia 45 Peterborough
Ad..lphus 19 Gipsy Golden Valley Glos
Sipton? 16 Cheltenham
Caleb 14 Golden Valley
Isaac 7 Swindon Chelt? Glos
Lily May 5 Churchdown Glos
Will see what I can find on the earlier censuses
Catherine :)
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yes that them,
Louise
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Hi Louise
With the Loveridge connection, I suppose
this could be a connection...
Marriage
Jonas Davis Loveridge ~ Matilda Allen
Year 1894 Qtr Dec Dist: Cheltenham Vol 6a pg 839
clasping at straws now! >:(
Sue
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thats the parents on the wrong birth cert i ordered . death cert has them as William and Annie Loveridge.
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According to the Heron Pedigree (Written up by the Revd George Hall who also wrote "The Gypsies Parson", and deposited in the JGLS)
Tiante Heron married John Ryles, and her sister Lurania or Lurena married Walter Ryles.
Triante was born circa 1855 Peterborough and Lurena was baptised 25.12.1866 at West Bromwich, aged abt 10 years.
They were the children of Edmund Heron and his 2nd wife Jemima Smith. They were married 23.11.1846 at Thurning, Northamptonshire. She was named daughter of John Smith, and was a widow, and he son of Edmund Heron and also a widow (his first wife was Christiana Smith).
By Christiana Edmund had:
Sage/Sagey Baptised 16.04.1836 Boughton Nthants (incorrectly listed on the IGI as "Loye")
Amelia b.abt 1845 Haddington Nthants
Tilda (Matilda) b.abt1836 Nthants
By Jemima Edmund had:
Caleb b.abt 1848 Leighton Hunts (or Nthants)
Manville b. abt1859 Welford Nthants (baptised at West Brom xmas day 1866)
Triante and Lurena.
By last wife Anis Smith Edmund had:
Stephen b.abt 1859 Ely, Cambridge (yes I can see how the dates dont tally but then the Rom didnt worry about things like monogamy)
Edmund was born abt 1815-21 depending on which census you find, and was born roughly in Nthants. His father Edmund Heron was known as "Naibai" and he married
1. Siberensi Buckland "Greenleaf", or "Kidney"
2.Sinfai Buckland "Crowy" b.abt 1795 in Oxfordshire
and finally 3.Rachel Lee b.abt 1807 Luton.
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Oh I should add, with regard to the name change from Ryles to Heron/Hearn - the Heron family were considered a very important romany bloodline, so a marriage into a "lesser" romany family, or even gorjo blood, would often lead to using the maiden name of the wife. Avoidance of the laws of the land would also lead to name changes of course!
This family are notoriously hard to trace - for instance, Amelia, sister of Triante, married Elias Gray. They appear on the 1891 census at Rushall, Staffordshire, as "William Gray and Amelia" - but it IS them.
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I guess this is Triente with parents in 1871 then?
1871 RG10/2607 Folio 28 Page 12
Taken on the road slept in parish, Newent, Gloucestershire
Edmund Herne 50 Gipsey Northamptonshire Easton
Jemima 55 Gipsey Stonyhton? Leicestershire
Alice Smith? unmar stepdaughter 35 Gipsey Northamptonshire ..........?
Zippereth? Herne son unmar 21 Gipsey Northamtonshire Ringstead
Treinte Herne dau unmar 18 Gipsey Lincoln Peterborough
Urania Herne dau unmar 16 Gipsey Lincoln Market Deeping
Manfell Herne son unmar 12 Gipsey Northampton Welford
+ grandchildren Madonna (16, Northampton Lutton) and Stephen Smith (11, Cambridge Ely)
Had spent hours trying to find them pre 1891!! ::) Still looking for John!
ps. at the bottom of the page after all the other families is a Caleb Herne, son of Edmund 23 Gipsey Huntingdon Leighton
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yup thats them, and heres some more for you.....
Fishtoft, Lin 1851
Arsary Gray 43 Gypsies in Tents Cambridge ("Oseri" s/o Oseri Gray)
Eliza Gray 36 Norfolk (nee Heron d/o Edward "No Name")
Jane Gray 17 Butterwick Lin ("Genti" bapt 1835)
Louis Gray 15 Well Norfolk
Alfred Gray 12 Tottenden Nfk
Adolphus Gray 8 Tydd Gate Cam
Samuel Gray 5 Norfolk
Emily Gray 3 Norwich Nfk
Keytumas Gray 2 Wisbeach Cam ("Kiomi")
\\
Thomas Gray 20 Gypsies in Tents Hoperwick Nfk
Pasthomas Gray 19 brother Hoperwick Nfk ("Potamus" )reputed s/o Piramus
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Edward Herron 55 Gypsies in Tents Cambridge
Sinfio Herron 56 Oxford ("Sinfai" nee Gray )
Isaac Herron 27 son Luddington, Lin
Sinfie Herron 26 sons wife Not Known (nee Gray)
Corileander Herron 4 Gdtr Norfolk
Philip Herron 2 Gson Lynne, Nfk
Thats Edward "Naibai" Heron with Sinfai Buckland.
Heres Edward and Jemima in 1861 for you....
Tent, Rodborough Common, Glos 1861
Edmund Hurn 1816 Marine Store Dealer Nhants
Jemima Hurn 1817 Hunts
Matilda Hurn 1836 Nhants
Alice Smith 1838 Nhants
Emilia Hurn 1845 Nhants
Caleb Hurn 1848 Nhants
Zepreta Hurn 1851 Nhants
Triante Hurn 1855 Nhants
Lurena Hurn 1856 Nhants
Manfield Hurn 1859 Nhants
Madona Smith 1856 Grandchild Nhants
Willian Smith 1860 Grandchild Ely Cam
Nathen Grey 1857 Grandchild Nhants
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I did a fair bit of tracing on the Heron line cos my romanies were Grays and Smiths of Lincs and they did a lot of intermarrying with the Herons etc. So I have a fair bit on this family....
According to the Heron Pedigree
Edward (Snr) Heron was the son of Richard Heron and Devit "Bonny" which I cant prove.
He was reputedly born about 1795 in Cambridgeshire, which fits, but it does remain unproven. His reputed siblings were:
Solivaino (married Wesson Heron)
Robert "The Lame Man" (unmarried)
Lusha (married Sarah Boss daughter of Leshi and Seni) who was transported.
Sarah (married John Buckland)
Reynolds (married Martha "Peggy" Boss"
Sophia (married Seki Boswell)
William "The Handsome Man" (married 1)Mary and 2)Polovene)
Edward "Naibai" Heron (married 1) Siberensi "Greenleaf" or "Kidney" Buckland 2) Sinfai Buckland 3)Rachel Lee)
and Rachel "Sibereti" "Fat Girl" (Married John/Jack Baker or Brown)
Using the IGI (www.familysearch.org) and Ancestry.coms census info, Ive managed to find children of Reynolds and Martha "Peggy" Boss and the family of Rachel and John/Jack Baker or Brown that fit this timeframe.
Moving on to Edwards family:
Reputedly of Edward and Siberensi Buckland:
Manful (Married Stari Boss)
Edmund (married 1)Christiana Smith married 2)Jemima Smith married 3) Anis Smith)
Humphrey
Proven of Edward and Siberensi:
Eldenham Heron c.1813 Easton Warwickshire.
Reputedly of Edward and Sinfai Buckland:
Reynolds c.1819 Moulton Lincs
Joshu
Tudlin
Gui
Isaac c.1824 Sutterton Lincs (married Sinfai Gray d/o Oseri) d.1911 Sutton on Trent and reputedly buried Crossgates, Leeds, Yorks.
It has only JUST occurred to me that Eldenham Heron bapt 1813 EASTON Warwicks is probably actually the younger Edward....!!!
onto that younger Edward.....
according to the census born cir 1816-21 EASTON ....
married 1) Christiana Smith
married 2) Jemima Smith 23.11.1846 Thurning Nthants
married 2) Anis Smith
They had:
Sage or Sagey c.16.04.1836 Boughton Nthants (wrongly on IGI as "Loye"
married Righteous Gray in 1854. Lived at Kingsthorpe Nthants.
Amelia b.cir 1845 Haddington Nthants married Elias Gray b.cir 1844 Abbots Rippon Hunts
Tilda (Matilda) b.cir 1846 Nthants married Sam Heron (bcir 1840 Wyndham Nfk, son of Naibai and Rachel)
Caleb b.cir1848 Leighton Hunts married Dona Lee (Madona)
moved to Wales.
Manville b.cir1859 bapt xmas day 1866 West Brom married (unknown) moved to Wales
Triante b.cir 1855 Peterborough Nthants married John Ryles
Lurena b.cir 1856 Nthants bapt xmas day 1866 West Brom married Walter Ryles
Zepreta or Zipporeth
Urania
and finally, Stephen b.cir 1859 Ely Cam, married Ruth, the reputed son of Edward and this 3rd wife Anis.
Sagey and Righteous Gray had:
Alfred (1855) Samuel (1858) Nathan (1859) Edward (1862) and Emily (1866) all at Kingsthorpe.
Amelia and Elias Gray had:
Abigail b.cir 1867 Kingthorpe married Iza Heron s/o Isaac (in turn s/o Naibai)
Mary b.1869 Halesowen married Alfred Smith
Mizelli b.cir1871 Walsall Stf
"Poley" sunpoleon/sapolins b. circa 1876 Bloxwich STF
Matilda b.cir 1878 Walsall STF married Tom Winter.
Mary and Alfred Smith had:
Abigail 1896 Erdington Warwicks, Azella 1897 Bentley Stf
Coralie cir 1900 Stirchley Warwicks, Horace 1893 Radcliffe Lan, and Roland cir 1889 Hay Mills, Warwicks.
Caleb and Dona Lee had:
Janus, Reynolds, Caleb, Downi, and Aylwin (reputedly)
Evergreen, probably really Greenwed bcir 1890
Ethelenda b.cir1896 Hemel Hempstead district (gro index)
and Edmund abt 1894 Cardiff Wales.
Manfield/Manville/Manful is known to have had:
Caleb 1884 Swansea Wales
and Elvira 1885 Swansea Wales
Zepreta b.circa 1851 Ringstead Nthants married Alice Smith nd had Madona 1856 Nthants and William b.1860 Ely Cam.
Urania b.cir 1855 Market Deeping Lincs (no other info)
hope all that makes sense.. yours Ann.
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Hi Ann
thanks for all that, havnt been on line for a bit and what a great supprize when i did . will take me a while so sort all this out in my mind.
the census for John Ryalls and Triente is RG13/2469 folio 26 page 8 tewkesbury (shes down as Yrfinia Ryals) and RG12/2041 folio 104 page 21 cheltenham (shes down as Sciante Riles ) with children on next page over
Louise
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Hi
I have only just registered to this site, so am not sure what it can do yet.
In reference to the Gray family, my partners grandmother was Ada Ann Gray, she was a gypsy princess, she was born in 1898 in the Manchester area, to William and her mother was also called Ada Ann. When she got married in 1928 her present address is stated as a fairground caravan in Audenshaw in Manchester. It is said that her father was a caravan maker at some time. Could they be related to your Gray family do you think?
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Hi Matilda/Louisa - glad you enjoyed it. I had a lot of fun unravelling the folklore behind the Heron Pedigree, and its given me pleasure to share it with you.
Hi H Kay - I think the majority of the Gray travelling families are related - Although finding all those links is really a labour of love. I am afraid I dont know of your Ada Ann - I tried looking for her on the 1901 census but didnt come up with anything. I did find an Ada Ann daughter of William Gray and Ada Ann Boswell in Ancestry.coms family tree search.... but she was born 1910.
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Ann
your a star, my husband having all 4 grandparents coming from Romany back ground make finding them a real challange, although one i do enjoy, only wish i could find something on my Loveridges as they are my last real brick wall (thinking now maybe they beamed down from mars)
thanks agian for your help
take care
Louise
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a lot of the Loveridges can be traced back to Towcester Nthants. I saw a site on it not long ago...
try here:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~towcesterfamilies/
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thanks Ann
will have a look
Louise
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Ann
just had another look at your web site, youve updated it alot since i last looked, you have done a great job on it, thanks loads for taking the time your a star
Louise
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thanks - its nice to know that its useful !
Yeah I took advantage of the holiday to do a bit of work on it :)
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Ive lately read that the Ryals/Ryles surname was a steal from the forename Ryal/Royal used by some of the Southern Heron/Hearn/Hern family. So a name change from Ryles back to Heron/Hearn would only mean a change back to the accurate surname.
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thanks Ann
do you me mind me asking where you read it to,
still looking for them, i know there hiding some where
Louise
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It was amongst some notes on the Hearn/Heron family sent to me a very long time ago by the now president of the Romany and Traveller FHS, Bob Dawson. I was re-reading some of these notes recently and saw it.
Its certainly not the only case I know of either. Ambrose Smith (the Jasper Petulengro in George Borrows books) changed his surname to Reynolds, which was his wifes fathers first name. (Sanspirella Heron d/o Reynolds).
Ive even seen Sansray Reynolds in Scotland in the 1881 census.
Hope that helps anyway.
If I come across anything else useful I will of course add it here. :)
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ok Ann
thanks for looking one i,ll find them hiding in the most obviouis place roll on 1911 census hopefully more clues there Louise
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few years to go yet, but oh wont it be great when it does arrive :)
good luck with the hunting in the meantime :)
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thanks looks like i,ll need it.
im glad there starting it early, jan 2009 isnt it only just over a year away
Louise
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just to update
have found them on the 1911 census as follows ;
at elmstone , hardwick in tent and caravans,
Nipton ryles head 27 single horse dealer born gloucestershire
caleb ryles brother 25 married farm lab born gloucestershire
Lily ryles sister 17 single born gloucestershire
next door
Aldophus ryles head 29 married ag lab born herefordshire
Britannia ryles wife 29 licened hawker born somersetshire
Lily May Ryles daughter 6 months born elmstone harwick gloucestershire
next door
John Ryles head 54 married farm lab born cranham glos
triante ryles wife 56 born peterbough lincolnshire
isaac ryles son 22 single farm lab born sindon glos
Triante had said she had 6 children with 4 dieing and 2 alive!! even though they were all stopping together !
have also found this family on 1911 censu and im sure they link up somewhere with them;
brookworth common glos 1 ten and 1 van
William ryles head 35 married travelling gipsey pedlar forest on dean glos
Sarah Ryles wife 35 travelling gipsy pedlar born forset of dean glos
Henry ryles son 19 travelling gipsey pedlar born
byrom ryles son 14 born nk
florrie ryles daughter 15 born nk
ellen ryles daughter 13 born nk
christopher ryles son 12 born upton st leonard commom glos?
lizzie ryles daughter 10 born upton st leonards commom glos?
william ryles son 8 born upton st leonard commom glos?
louisa ryles daughter 3 born upton st leonard commom glos?
john ryles son 4 months born upton st leonard commom glos?
im sure they fit in somewhere would love to find out if anyone is linked to any of these familys or new where they came from many thanx Matilda ;)
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i have Adolphus on the 1911 census with "wife" britannia and daughter Lilly May born c1910 . i havent found and marriage for them before 1911. i have i belive found a birth for Lily may Mar 1911 Ryles Lily M Cheltenham just before they listed mothers names! i have found a marriage for a brittannia Lock to an Adolphus Hurn in Dec 1914 Hurn Adolphus Lock Cheltenham Lock brittania Hurn Cheltenham. i know that Adolphus's brother and sister used the hurn name. wondered if anyone had any ideas??
thanks Matilda
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Hi Louise
With the Loveridge connection, I suppose
this could be a connection...
Marriage
Jonas Davis Loveridge ~ Matilda Allen
Year 1894 Qtr Dec Dist: Cheltenham Vol 6a pg 839
clasping at straws now! >:(
Sue
Just Recently Found this site, along with the info about my Family, Jonas and Matilda Allen would be my Great Great Grand Parents... There daughter Emily or Emma as she was known was my great grandmother. I've managed to trace back to Job & Alice, as well to what I think are Alice's parents James and Sarah Davis. But if you have any other information on this line, my family would greatly appricate it.
Thanks Billie
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I recently found out about a photo which looks to feature Royles' and Loveridges. I'm contacting the owner to see if I can get a copy/scan.
I remember reading somewhere that someone had been passed notes from the guy in Derby relating to Royal hearn/heron and the name change of herons to royals/royles/ryals. Any info on dates etc on royal would be much appreciated.
I recall reading somewhere according to the heron's that royal had 'gone to wales'. which I guess fits into where we ended up around the gloucester area.
I also read somewhere that some ryalls emigrated with stanleys and coopers to america. anyone heard of this and know who exactly of the ryals that went? dates ? 1800s?
There is a ryals town in texas and Texas has 20,000 romanichals.
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hi
would love to see that photo if u ever get a copy,
i also have heard from somewhere that the royals/ryall, came from the hearns/herons somewhere back but no more than that.
Matilda
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Here ya go!!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v507/ThievingGypsyBastard/482308604_o.jpg)
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What a great photo, any ideas who they are or where and when taken, have so few photos from hubbys side of the family. i have sent u a message on romany jib, dont know if u got it thanx agian Matilda
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Hey! I don't know where. On the back of the photo it just says Walter Royles 1926 and the letters F.W.D. I guess that is the initials of the photographer or possibly a location?
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great thanx wonder if its Walter brother of John and his family, lovely to see whoever it is ;)
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Here's another Walter Ryles , 1905 said to be between 70 and 80 years old at the time of this photo. This is featured in a recently republished book on Painswick, Sheepscombe, Slad and Edge.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v507/ThievingGypsyBastard/P1080771.jpg)
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what a great photo thanx agian for sharing ;D
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Oh I should add, with regard to the name change from Ryles to Heron/Hearn - the Heron family were considered a very important romany bloodline, so a marriage into a "lesser" romany family, or even gorjo blood, would often lead to using the maiden name of the wife. Avoidance of the laws of the land would also lead to name changes of course!
This family are notoriously hard to trace - for instance, Amelia, sister of Triante, married Elias Gray. They appear on the 1891 census at Rushall, Staffordshire, as "William Gray and Amelia" - but it IS them.
hello I'm looking into my family tree and I'm the great great granddaughter of Amelia hurn heron and eliace Gray there son Nepolian is my dads grandad it seems they have very unusual names foreign some of them dose anybody know where they originated from ?
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Hello I'm researching my family tree and I'm the great great granddaughter of Nepolian son of eliace Gray and Amelia hurn my grandmother was called Amelia Gray I don't know much but remembered the name Nepolian my granny's mother was Sally smith his second marriage they had children Jane , Amelia (my granny ) violet , Richard / dick eliace /kite and rennie and subey xx
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Oh I should add, with regard to the name change from Ryles to Heron/Hearn - the Heron family were considered a very important romany bloodline, so a marriage into a "lesser" romany family, or even gorjo blood, would often lead to using the maiden name of the wife. Avoidance of the laws of the land would also lead to name changes of course!
This family are notoriously hard to trace - for instance, Amelia, sister of Triante, married Elias Gray. They appear on the 1891 census at Rushall, Staffordshire, as "William Gray and Amelia" - but it IS them.
hello Amelia and eliace are my great great grandparents I don't know much about them really they had a son Neapolian I think he was the only son I'm not sure ? A daughter Mary I think Matilda , and I think 2 more daughters I will find out for sure Neapolian was my great grandfather he had 2 wives his first Jane smith his second my great granny Sally smith his children Amelia ( my granny ) who married Tom Gallagher (my grandad) Jane who married William King ,Violet can't remember her husbands name ,suebey (unmarried) ,Alfred / dick who married Thelma smith (my mams sister ) Eliace who married Tutty knight and rennie I don't know who he married ?
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I did a fair bit of tracing on the Heron line cos my romanies were Grays and Smiths of Lincs and they did a lot of intermarrying with the Herons etc. So I have a fair bit on this family....
According to the Heron Pedigree
Edward (Snr) Heron was the son of Richard Heron and Devit "Bonny" which I cant prove.
He was reputedly born about 1795 in Cambridgeshire, which fits, but it does remain unproven. His reputed siblings were:
Solivaino (married Wesson Heron)
Robert "The Lame Man" (unmarried)
Lusha (married Sarah Boss daughter of Leshi and Seni) who was transported.
Sarah (married John Buckland)
Reynolds (married Martha "Peggy" Boss"
Sophia (married Seki Boswell)
William "The Handsome Man" (married 1)Mary and 2)Polovene)
Edward "Naibai" Heron (married 1) Siberensi "Greenleaf" or "Kidney" Buckland 2) Sinfai Buckland 3)Rachel Lee)
and Rachel "Sibereti" "Fat Girl" (Married John/Jack Baker or Brown)
Using the IGI (www.familysearch.org) and Ancestry.coms census info, Ive managed to find children of Reynolds and Martha "Peggy" Boss and the family of Rachel and John/Jack Baker or Brown that fit this timeframe.
Moving on to Edwards family:
Reputedly of Edward and Siberensi Buckland:
Manful (Married Stari Boss)
Edmund (married 1)Christiana Smith married 2)Jemima Smith married 3) Anis Smith)
Humphrey
Proven of Edward and Siberensi:
Eldenham Heron c.1813 Easton Warwickshire.
Reputedly of Edward and Sinfai Buckland:
Reynolds c.1819 Moulton Lincs
Joshu
Tudlin
Gui
Isaac c.1824 Sutterton Lincs (married Sinfai Gray d/o Oseri) d.1911 Sutton on Trent and reputedly buried Crossgates, Leeds, Yorks.
It has only JUST occurred to me that Eldenham Heron bapt 1813 EASTON Warwicks is probably actually the younger Edward....!!!
onto that younger Edward.....
according to the census born cir 1816-21 EASTON ....
married 1) Christiana Smith
married 2) Jemima Smith 23.11.1846 Thurning Nthants
married 2) Anis Smith
They had:
Sage or Sagey c.16.04.1836 Boughton Nthants (wrongly on IGI as "Loye"
married Righteous Gray in 1854. Lived at Kingsthorpe Nthants.
Amelia b.cir 1845 Haddington Nthants married Elias Gray b.cir 1844 Abbots Rippon Hunts
Tilda (Matilda) b.cir 1846 Nthants married Sam Heron (bcir 1840 Wyndham Nfk, son of Naibai and Rachel)
Caleb b.cir1848 Leighton Hunts married Dona Lee (Madona)
moved to Wales.
Manville b.cir1859 bapt xmas day 1866 West Brom married (unknown) moved to Wales
Triante b.cir 1855 Peterborough Nthants married John Ryles
Lurena b.cir 1856 Nthants bapt xmas day 1866 West Brom married Walter Ryles
Zepreta or Zipporeth
Urania
and finally, Stephen b.cir 1859 Ely Cam, married Ruth, the reputed son of Edward and this 3rd wife Anis.
Sagey and Righteous Gray had:
Alfred (1855) Samuel (1858) Nathan (1859) Edward (1862) and Emily (1866) all at Kingsthorpe.
Amelia and Elias Gray had:
Abigail b.cir 1867 Kingthorpe married Iza Heron s/o Isaac (in turn s/o Naibai)
Mary b.1869 Halesowen married Alfred Smith
Mizelli b.cir1871 Walsall Stf
"Poley" sunpoleon/sapolins b. circa 1876 Bloxwich STF
Matilda b.cir 1878 Walsall STF married Tom Winter.
Poley was my great grandfather my granny was his daughter Amelia Gray I found it very conflicting because it says eliace he was the son of Bethany and William Gray / James mobs but I've been told he was the son of Sophia and eliace Gray ?
Mary and Alfred Smith had:
Abigail 1896 Erdington Warwicks, Azella 1897 Bentley Stf
Coralie cir 1900 Stirchley Warwicks, Horace 1893 Radcliffe Lan, and Roland cir 1889 Hay Mills, Warwicks.
Caleb and Dona Lee had:
Janus, Reynolds, Caleb, Downi, and Aylwin (reputedly)
Evergreen, probably really Greenwed bcir 1890
Ethelenda b.cir1896 Hemel Hempstead district (gro index)
and Edmund abt 1894 Cardiff Wales.
Manfield/Manville/Manful is known to have had:
Caleb 1884 Swansea Wales
and Elvira 1885 Swansea Wales
Zepreta b.circa 1851 Ringstead Nthants married Alice Smith nd had Madona 1856 Nthants and William b.1860 Ely Cam.
Urania b.cir 1855 Market Deeping Lincs (no other info)
hope all that makes sense.. yours Ann.