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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Bridget x on Sunday 14 January 07 22:44 GMT (UK)
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I have in my possession the only known photograph of our G.Grandparents. It is a wonderful, but very old picture showing them standing outside a very poor and run-down shoemakers shop. The old shingle jutting out above the shop gives the information W. Lawlor shoemaker and shoe repairer. William is wearing a leather overall while Mary, his wife is dressed in long black skirts and White apron. Judging from the state of the shop and above rooms I would say this property has long gone. My question is this, would a shop in such a sorry and poor state have been registered in any Dublin records? I would love to find out where it once stood. I suspect it was in north Dublin possibly in what was once Gt. Britain St, (now Parnell St) or Capel St. I would guess the picture was taken c1911-1920. Any suggestions, or better still, and budding Sherlock Holmes out there? Thank you. Bridget x
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Can you post the picture or give any other details, and someone should give it a go.
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If William Lawlor was a shoemaker he might appear in Dublin directories. It would certainly be worth checking, especially since you have a possible address.
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Thank's for both replies. As I am new to this site I have no idea how to post a picture. Can I check out the Dublin directories on line as I do not live in Dublin? Again thank's for your suggestions and help. I have just noticed the sign in the window, shoes soled and heeled at a cost of 2/6 !! What year would this have been? I am guessing at the year of the picture as I found them on the Dublin census for 1911. Bridget x
Managed it with help from hubby!. The child in the picture was their grandchild my mother.
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Bridget
Did the 1911 Census give an Actual address or area for these folk?
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hmmm,that poster in the middle of the window on the right hand side
says "rotunda" and further down the poster says "new living pictures".
I think it could have been around the parnell st area which runs across the
top of o'connell street,the ambasador cinema stood at this spot facing down
o'connell street,this block could have been known as rotunda as the rotunda
maternity hospital is still at the back of where this cinema stood.could it have
been known as the "rotunda picture house"?the shop could have been near there.
where are all those 'vintage' dubliners who could tell us when that poster might have
been seen?
regards.anne
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L.H. and Anne, Thank you both for your replies. The 1901 and 1911 Dublin census show my G.Grandparents living at what was then Stafford St.(house No. 12 in 1911.) As my grandmother and my own mother also lived there I am familiar with the street and the only shop in that st. was a small dairy.called Sheridans. I have a strong feeling the shoemakers shop in the picture would have been in what was then GT. Britain St. and now Parnell St. It would make sense it would be near the Capel St end of (now) Parnell St near their tenement home. I feel it may have been too poor to have been registered. I have looked at a list for leather workers in Dublin for that time but no luck. Does anyone know when the name changed. ? The poster in the window is indeed for the Rotunda picturehouse where the Ambassador now stands Or did when I was last in Dublin. Known as the "flea pit" when I went there in my youth many, many years ago! Bridget x
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hi,don't know if you have this link already which
has a list of sources available.it might help you to plan
what you want to research before your next visit home.
happy hunting.anne
http://www.nli.ie/family_hr.htm#pr
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Thank's for that Anne. Regards, Bridget x
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The cinema was renamed the Ambassador in 1954. It was used as a cinema from about 1897 and Edison's 'New Living Pictures' were shown on special occasions and holidays. It became a full-time cinema (the Rotunda, the 'Roto' or sometimes the Roxy) under the owner that acquired it in 1908. It was a fairly rough and ready place with wooden benches. The owners that took it over in the late 40s renovated it, putting in boxes and a bigger balcony and substantially increasing the numbers it could hold.
It's now a concert venue.
The Gilbert Library has a number of directories covering all years from about 1810 to date. Next time I'm over there I'll have a look for your Lawlor.
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Dear Dub 1850, Sorry I do not know your name. That information (re Rotunda) was really intersting, thank you. Yes, got to agree with you, it really was a rough place! I seem to recall you did not get an "admission ticket" but a sort of metal disk that clattered down a type of little slide!. When I left Dublin it was still the Rotunda. Would you know what date Gt. Britain St. became Parnell St? Thank you for your offer of having a peep for the Lawlors, most kind of you and much appreciated. I have not heard of this library, where is it and what records does it hold? I love spending hours in these places and Dublin has such a wealth of them. Bridget x
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The Gilbert library houses the Dublin archive and has just books on Dublin. It's upstairs in Pearse Street library.
I might get over there tomorrow (not promising anything).
Great Britain Street was renamed Parnell Street on 1st October 1911 following the unveiling of the monument to Parnell.
Trish
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Thanks Trish, I just love finding out little snippets of information about Dublin of years ago. Last year I was reading a book "Jew's of Ireland from earliest times to 1910" by Lewis Hymn. I was amazed to find the St where I was born and reared mentioned in it by a different name. Not only that, but the house (numbered) next door to ours was a prayer house for the Jewish traders in the area. Wonder when Colooney St. became Stafford St, then Wolfe Tone St, and yet again Wolfe |Tone Court. I have an idea Stafford St became Wolfe Tone St sometimes in 1942/3 as I was going to school when it changed . I would take a bet not one person living in that St. knew it was once named Colooney St. Not really important, but nice to know when it concerns a place where one once lived! Bridget x
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Sorry for the delay.
I looked for W. Lawlor in the directories in the Gilbert today.
No joy I'm afraid - I even looked a couple of years either side of your time frame.
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Hi Bridget
just wondering if you have posted this picture on
any other site ? for some reason that I cant recall
just yet I have seen it somewhere before ! Sorry
to drive you mad with that but I am sure it will come
to me, also did you notice the other face in the picture
the man between the 3 shoes on the same side as
your grandfather - spooky ! I will rampage through
my Dublin stuff and see if I can find out where I have
seen it before .....
Carol
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Carol, That is amazing!!! I have looked at that picture for years and never noticed the other face in the window (side nearest my G.Grandfather) until you pointed it out! I had to look very carefully before I found it! No, cant say I have ever put it on any other board. How I would love to know where that shop was situated but sadly don't think I am ever going to find out. Thanks again for pointing out the face in the window. (Sounds like the title for a movie) Bridget x
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hi bridget,I also had noticed the face in the window when
I zoomed in on the photo but I could'nt make my mind up if it was
a real person or one of those statues that all shoemenders seemed to have in their windows.
its a great photo,one of those ones that you notice something new
each time you look at it.I hope you find the info' you need.
regards,anne
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Anne, you have my permission to join Carol at the top of the class for observation LOL! I still can't believe I missed the face in the window after all these years! The trouble is I am now worried as to what else these tired old eyes may have missed this past few years? Could this be the reason my Lawlor research not only met the proverbial brick wall but also a tangled mass of barbed wire ?LOL The "face" poses another question. The couple in the picture had two children, a daughter Julia, (my Nan) and a son James who also became a shoe/boot maker. I am now wondering could the face belong to their son James possibly in the shop learning the trade from his father? Then again, am I now desperately clutching at straws? Bridget
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or maybe the other child on the pavement could be
their son,would be nearer the right age for your nan's brother James?
as for brick walls ::) I 'd need a pick axe to knock mine down ;D
anne
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Taid !
this is killing me because the photo was so big I didn't see the other child in the corner really LOL ! so how many other people are going to pop up, still giggling !
Seriously tho I think that you can count on the spooky face in the window as James, unless the Lawlors could afford to take staff on. I still havn't figured out where I have seen this picture, I am sure it was in an Irish paper. I asked my mom if she could remember where Lawlors was, she couldn't remember the name but said she remembers a shoemenders near the hospital - bet there were a couple tho !
Still cant get over the shock I got when I saw that other kid !!!!
Carol
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]Carol, When you mention a "shoemakers near the hospital" what hospital would that be? I think I have pinpointed the picture to about 1909. The little girl standing in the doorway is the GRANDDAUGHTER of the couple, (my mother) I reckon she looks aged about 5yrs. in the photo and as she was born in 1904 that would make the year 1909.
Mary, my G,Grandmother would then have been aged 58yrs (b1851) and her husband William 60yrs.
(B1849) I have changed my mind about the "face" being James their son. He was then aged 36yrs (b1873) and most likely working for himself. As I look at the photo (yet again) I pray William will not raise his cap in greeting, nor Mary her apron to wipe the sweat from her brow as I fear another half a dozen children will pop out. LOL Bridget[/color]
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Hi Bridget
faces everywhere !
I am sure my mom said there was one near the Rotunda Hospital, not totally sure, I will be seeing her tomorrow and will pick her brains for you
Carol ;D
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In 1913 the average wage of a labourer in Dublin was less than one pound a week, making prices of 2/6 and 3/6 quite a luxury for the ordinary man, more so for women, who were paid less.
Even by 1947, the average wage in Ireland was only £2 10s.
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Trish, Wow! Less than a pound a week! that is amazing. No pun intended, but I bet the folk who were unemployed were litrally walking on their uppers. Even those in some sort of employment would have stuffed cardboard in their shoes as 3shillings and sixpence was a huge chunk out of a weekly pound wage. My nana Julia Lawlor, the daughter of the couple in the picture by a strange coincidence married a Patrick Lawlor (no relation) who was also a shoe/boot maker. As a small girl in about 1941 I watched him measure and make shoes/boots for customers. He worked from a tiny closet just off the room in our tenement house. The shoes/boots made from scratch. He would place the stockinged foot of the customer on a sheet of brown paper and draw a pencil mark around the shape of the foot and proceed from there, never getting it wrong! He was a gifted shoemaker, also taking orders from a shop called "Barry's" in Capel St. This shop sold hand made shoes and riding boots to the very well off people at that time. I'm almost sure my grandfather earned £3.10shillings for making a pair of shoes. I can't remember how long it took him to complete each order, but a long time. Bridget x
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Hi Bridget
not much to report I'm afraid, it was the Routunda Hospital, but my mum cant remember the name of the shop. So it could well be Lawlors ! ???
One other thing I found out, the nickname for shoemakers was "Waxies" also most of the more fortunate waged business people would have an annual outing to Bray or such place, whereas businesses like the "Waxies" could ill afford such a thing, The Shoemakers of Dublin held their annual jamboree at Pembroke Street, Irishtown, because they didn't have the cash to go out to the real thing on the Dargle Road in Bray. There is a stone there to commemorate this annual event ! Just a snippet I thought you might like, try googling "waxies" you never know ! (the name comes from the wax they used on the thread)
Carol
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hi bridget,I can even get the smell of new leather!
sorry to have mixed up the relationships in your family,
the details have now sunk in.
I don't know about a bootmaker facing the hospital but it
would'nt surprise me.until relatively recent times there
were open air shoe stalls on parnell st just around the
corner from moore st.
anne
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Anne, Don't talk to me about "Open air stalls" I got my first gym slip from Coles Lane much to the chargin of my sisters! Mum had her work cut out and her purse stretched with her family of eight! How proud I was going to school in the newly washed and pressed gym slip secretly hoping I would be mistaken for one of the well to do boarders. No such luck! My odd blouse and whitened "runners" gave the game away. LOL How well I remember the day we had the collection at school for the black babies. I can still remember my mums face when we four girls arrived home with instructions to return with sixpence each, two whole shillings! Ma wasn't in the best of moods, up to her elbows in suds and soap with the huge weekly wash. Innocently informing mum we needed money to feed the black babies she replied " B---er back and tell the nuns I don't have enough to feed the white ones"
Yours truly did exactly that when the nun, Sr. Paul came to collest the money! Oh happy days!
Bridget x
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you won't believe it but i'm reading a book I've
had for awhile,its called dublin tenement lives
and some of the stories are from older people who
were sort of interviewed for the book.their names
and places they lived are mentioned too.some of the stories
they tell would make your hair stand on end!some are from
parnell st and north king st too.looking at your picture and
reading about your family life has made me want to read it again.
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Hi Bridget
just came across this information dont know if its of any use - KELLY DIRECTORY OF LEATHERTRADES IN IRELAND 1915 Miss Annie Lawlor 112 North King Street. There is also a Michael J Lawler 29 Main street although I suspect this to be main street in Bray. I found this on the website to the lady who posted you a message on this subject DUBLIN 1850.
Carol
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Carol, Yes I also checked out that site that Trish was kind enough to give on here. I also noticed the Miss Lawlor of King St but could not see a connection. Thanks for mentioning it. I dream of winning the lottery one day and hiring someone to find out all my family background LOL
Anne, Is the book you are reading Dublin Tenement Life by Kevin C. Kearns? I got that on one of my visits to Dublin as you can't get that type of book where I live. What amazing old photos! and such poverty. I love reading those type of books, especially when places and people one knows are mentioned. Good to know a history of the tenements, its people, work practices and characters will be on record for future generations. I have written (maybe I should amend that to doodled!) some short stories of my families life in the tenements in the hope that my grandchildren may one day show an interest in their background. My own two children just nod politely with a "Well done" on the rare occasion I manage to unearth a piece of information on my Lawlors. Secretly, I know they are smiling condescendingly and thinking, "Poor mum, what a sad life she leads" LOL
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hi bridget,yes thats the one,it was a present from my brother
as all my family know how I love non fiction accounts of dublin social history.
I think its great that you have written your memories down,
mine would be a little different because although I worked in the city
not far from where your family lived,my family were mostly from the south side
of the liffey and mainly the liberties area.although I visited relatives there and went
to school there for a short time,most of what I know from those times are from
my parents and grandparents.
will keep watching for anything which may help with your query.
regards,anne
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I think the face in the window is a reflection, Maybe the photographer or his assistant. Could just be a neighbour or customer waiting patiently whilst the photo was taken?
Joanne
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Joanne, Now theres a thought! You have got to be a bright young thing ! In one clever swipe you may have demolished our mystery man LOL
I wonder if there are any clever photographers out there who could help us with that one? Bridget x
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"Bright" is a compliment but i'm afraid "Young" is but a distant memory ;D
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Joanne, Join the club He He ! Bridget x
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hi bridget,
I was showing your photo of your rellies shoe shop to
my sister today,I don't know if this will be of any help but she is convinced its either the top end of capel st or the lower end of jervis st.she has a great eye for detail and she thinks some of that type of building may still exist in jervis st ,she said both the buildings and the type of grille on the ground in front of the shop were the same.I'm sure that having lived in the area yourself
you may have some idea where those buildings were.my sister remembers a shop in capel st
which used to sell seeds etc looked quite like it.
anne
p.s. she also noticed the large writing on the front had been added to the photo,
don't know why I did'nt notice that before.
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Anne, My, your sister has a sharp eye, bless her. Yes, my hubby added the black print to the picture in the hope that future generations who may have missed the rather faded name on the shingle might make the connection as to who the people are. I have to admit I am not holding my breath as none of our young and scattered family members are showing the least bit of interest!!! I made out dozens of family trees and posted them to Aus, U.S,A. Eng. and lastly Ireland and had no feed back from anyone. As stated, I even wrote some short stories about our life in the tenement houses in the hope that reading about a life oh, so different to what they now live and know would entice them to become interested. Have you noticed the posting just below this one (The lighter side of life in the Tenements, My Da, the John Wayne of Ireland) That was a true but light hearted account, others are stark and sad. The Street I lived in is the next one to Jervis St. I was born there in Stafford St now called Wolfe Tone Court. I made a trip back there to show my husband where I was born and brought up. I stood looking around at all the changes and of course the memories came flooding back and I cried buckets! even shedding a wee tear thinking abut it, silly old me. I think your sister hit the nail on the head in her choice of location. I'm sure that shop was oh so close to Stafford St. While I do not remember the name, I certainly recall that seed shop. I also recall Barry's where they sold hand made shoes and riding boots, a lot of them made by my own grandfather, it was on the opposite side to Breartons (Sp) pawn shop( R.I.P. Pat who allowed my mum more than the pledge was worth. bless him) I also recall Longs leather shop further down toward Capel St. Bridge who supplied bootmakers needs. What was the name of that shop in Capel St, just around the corner from Mary St. a child's paradise who sold jokes, sneezing powder, balls, bats marbles and so forth, I loved it. Who can forget "The Doll's Hospital" on the corner of the lane in Mary St. I bought my first record there, my hero, the love of my life LOL Eddie Fisher!!!! Oh, happy days. Must stop, I am getting carried away but I love these " on the board, conversation's" and reminiscence about old Dublin. Bridget x
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Hi there Bridget, that shop you remember with the jokes etc also used to see lots of second hand books and that I seem to recall it was called "The Banba" ? as far as I know it was still there until very recent years too, and I think the seed/plant shop down by the bridge was called "Mackey's Seeds" if memory serves me ole brain Oh and Bye the way thanks for the blessings they are much appreciated
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Hi C.D. I'm sure I am going a bit "funny" as I could have sworn I answered your post! As a newbie to the board I bet I have posted it somewhere else LOL! I happened to click on a section called "The lighter side" and can't find it now! See what I mean! I Think the name Bamba may have come later and you are to young to remember the name I am trying to think of which is driving me mad. The name "Gagans" keeps coming o mind. I am going to post it as a query in the hope some older Dubs may remember it, but hey! good girl and thanks for your suggestion. Bridget x
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]Mary, my G,Grandmother would then have been aged 58yrs (b1851) and her husband William 60yrs.
(B1849) I have changed my mind about the "face" being James their son. He was then aged 36yrs (b1873) and most likely working for himself. [/color]
Hi Bridget,
I am totally new to tracing family roots and was wondering did you ever track down William Lawlor? Reason I ask is because my g-grandfather was James Lawlor (b abt 1873) who appears in the 1911 census living in a tenement at 11 Buckingham St.
Is this the same James you mention in your post above? I would appreciate any help you could give me in this line.
Thanks, Peter
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Peter, You will have to send me a private Email with your Email address as I cant send you one. Board says PM could not be sent to 'peterlawlorbansha' due to the max. PM limit. Bridget
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hi bridget & Peter ,I don't think Peter can send a personal message until
he has a few more posts,its a fairly new rule.
Anne
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Hi Anne, I hope you are well? Thanks for that, I wondered was I doing something "wrong" LOL Oh well, I'm not sure how we are going to get around that! I guess the ball is now in your court Peter! Thank's again Anne
Bridget x
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You can mail me at (*).
I believe my James' wife was Ann McGuinness (from my Aunt) so I guess I can proceed direct to the Marraige certificate and collect the birth certs for their children to get a complete record.
Thank you for your help as you have confirmed much of what I suspected.
Sincerely,
Peter.
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I don't think Peter can send a personal message until
he has a few more posts,its a fairly new rule.
Thanks for the info Anne. I'll bear that in mind.
Peter.
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By the way.......... the Old Age Pensions Act was introduced in 1907 i.e. between the 1901 and 1911 censuses.
A LOT of Irish people mysteriously aged by up to 20 years between the 2 censuses, probably to claim a pension before it was properly due to them.
Might help if you find an age discrepancy along the way.
Peter.
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Have you considered Shaw's Dublin City Directory 1850 as there is a William Lawler listed as boot tree maker which sound an associated trade - it might help to work forward as its a only a single generation gap? Shaws can be found at:
a http://www.dublin1850.com/dublin1850/index.html
Marc
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Thanks for that Marc. I have just been and had a look but could not find a William Lawlor. I looked at this site before and could find nothing on him. He was only born in 1850 but thank you for the suggestion. Bridget x
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Bridget, Could it be that this is his father as trades tended to stay within Families and there is a William Lawler
The following is extracted from Shaws :
Lawler
William, 9 West Essex St (boot tree maker)
Good Luck anyway
Marc
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Thanks Marc, I wish I could say "Yes" but his father was named James. Oh well! I shall carry on plugging away, LOl Bridget x
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Hi Bridget
I have a similar problem. I have a photo of my Grandfather Samuel MACK outside the Shoe makers shop he had with his brother John FARRELL abt 1930ish . We are not sure where it is as a relative said Main St Bray but someone else said dublin city. We also had the name Central Boot and Leather Store mentioned but cant find any only in Cork. I am going to try and upload the picture as that was a great idea.
I will also have a look for your family.
Thanks
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You don't mind me asking but was Samuel Mack and John Farrell step brother's ?
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Hi Seekerone
Yes they were. Their mum Emily Hill Farrell Mack was married to John Farrells father Thomas and then to Samuels father also Thomas after Thomas Farrell died.
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Dear Bridget:
I am a descendant of Catherine Delaney. She was born in 1900 in Dublin. She had a sister Bridget. The family had some connection with a shop shoe in Dublin. I have pictures of I think Bridget, Catherine, and female child walking across the bridge. What did you find out about the shoe shop?
Sarah
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Hi Sarah, Thank you for your message. I regret to say I never did find out where the shop was. I think it will always be an unsolved mystery. I hope you have better luck finding your shoe shop. I have not come across the name Delaney during my research. Bridget
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Hello again,
Have you found a way to look at the 1901 census? How do you find out about Irish people emigrating to another country? For example, I believe that my grandmother born and brought up in Ireland, emigrated to Argentina about 1921 or 1922. She came back. I do not know how to find out about such a process.
Sarah
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Hi Sarah, I managed to view the 1901 census when I was in Dublin some years ago. The records were housed in Bishop St. I think they are to be made public soon. I'm sure one of the wonderful experts on this board will step in and advise you on immigrating listings as I have never gone down that road. Regards, Bridget
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ridget
I hope you are still seeking information about this photo
The property was in poor shape-note the brickwork with damaged facing ,the downspout but the paving outside appears to be in order. This was a typical Dublin shop with 2 floors accomodation above and side private hall door entrance. I think it must have been a side street shop as he did not have to rely upon the passing trade and the condition (e.g. downspout) would not have escaped the eye of Dublin Corporation. There are accounts of shopkeepers in Capel Street being fined for not sweeping their frontages.
There is a great deal of writing on the photo or else someone has used it as a writing pad - e.g. on the front pavementand there is a roundel like a postage stamp frank by the private hall door. Magnify these using a loup and come back. It is too good to chuck aside.
Regards Quaxer
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Another avenue of research would be to see if there are any archived records of the Wood Milne company in the UK, to see if they list their Dublin stockists anywhere.
Alternatively, an email to the Irish Architectural Archive might be able to positively narrow down the street from the window design etc..
http://www.iarc.ie/
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Bridget
forgive me if you already found this, dont think for a minute that you didn't but just in case.
1911 census
William Lawlor Bootmaker age 64 born Co Kilkenny
Mary Lawlor age 54 born Co Wicklow
address 12.5 Stafford Street North Dublin.
I was up there a few days ago..wishing I had looked before I went and could have taken pictures for you. They are mostly still very old buildings and have managed to escape rejuvantion of Dublin City.
As I said, you probably have this information, but I am glad you finally found out where the shop was.
Carol
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Bridget
Carol believes that the photo relates to 12 Stafford Street. There is no entry in Slaters 1894, my source work for the Irish Times 1859 1901 has only one entry which has no relevance and Thoms 1911 shows the premises as being in tenements.
If you have the time will you examine the photo as I requested yesterday. Use a square search technique and miss nothing,
Regards Quaxer
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Hi Carol, I hope you are well. Yes, I do have that information from the 1911 census on William and Mary Lawlor but nevertheless thank you so much for looking that up. I still have not found the shoemakers shop and, to be honest had given up on it. The latest inquiry from Quaxer has reawakened my interest so, here we go again!! Lol
Trish, As ever, such sound advice! I shall follow up your suggestion regarding getting in touch with Irish Architectural Archive. Looking at the photo (yet again) I am drawn to the Wood Milne advert in the window for “Revolving heels” The mind bobbles! Thank you.
Hello Quaxer, I have to say, “Not Guilty” regarding any scribbles on this very old photo. It is as I found it in my late mum’s belongings. Sadly, I am no expert on computers and am not familiar with your suggestion of magnifying with a “loup” I have used the magnifier on Photoshop and, even then can’t make out or see any writing that is, apart from that in the adverts in the window. This photo has become a long running serial giving us a few laughs along the way. If you have read the thread from the start you will have read how amazed I was when a Rootschat member pointed out the face in the window. I still feel it would not have been far from their tenement home in Stafford St. So, perhaps somewhere in Gt. Britain, Mary, or Capel St. Oh dear, will I ever find the answer? Many thanks’.
Bridget
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Sadly, I am no expert on computers and am not familiar with your suggestion of magnifying with a “loup”
Hi Bridget,
I believe this is a North American term for what we would call a magnifying glass. Usually used to decribe one with very high level of magnification as used by, for example, a jeweller.
With regard to the term 'square search technique' I have to admit I am totally lost. Perhaps Quaxer might enlighten us.
Dara.
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Hi Dara, Thank's for that. Bridget
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Bridget,
Dara is perfectly right. It is like an up turned teacup and for many years I have found the bendy bit most useful to decipher ancient scrall.
I put mine to the computer screen and could clearly see plenty of writing including the roundel. I promise I had my glasses on then. Work on it literally one square inch at a time .The roundel may have a date.
This will not beat us. Its great to have such photos.
Do not write on it again and if you must use a soft pencil on the REAR.
Come back and let us make progress.
Regards Quaxer
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Thank you Quaxer for your clarification.
Dara.
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is this it?
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Marc, If I did not think it was already long gone due to ite condition and age I would say it sure looks like it with the addition of new windows!! Where did you find that? Its weird!
Bridget
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Although not seen in the old photo I think, as does Quaxer there were two floors above the shop. A lot of the shops in parnell St. had these type of windows when I was a youngster growing up there.
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Hi Bridget - I posted the picture on a Dublin forum and one of the Chaps come up with this picture on Parnell street, the only thing missing is the the down pipe but that may be due to modernisation.
there is alo on on Capel street that looks very similar
Here is a link http://www.dublin.ie/forums/album.php?albumid=375
Marc
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Bridget
Marc's photo is possible. I well remember those types os shop and premises some 50 years ago. They were quite common in the north end of Capel Street for example.
Will Marc please state the origins and all details of the premises (i.e.address) so that we can work on a process of elimination.Am I correct in the the pavement slopes in Marc's photo from right to left and does it in your old photo. Not only have the windows been changed but note all the exposed brickwork has been rendered by cement. The old photo showed the urgent need for brickwork repair .Also the metal overhang above the shop door and windows is prominent in both phots.I thought that it was more prominent than usual (someone- a builder comment) Further the downspout has gone but where doe s the rainwater now drain to- it must have been rainwater and not sanitary as the old photo shows the T junction open and Sir Charles Cameron would not have approved
Regards to all Quaxer.
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Quaxer - i admire your atention to detail! good points well made.
The photos can be seen at the link
http://www.dublin.ie/forums/album.php?albumid=375
Interestingly there are photos of Capel St there but the one shown is Parnell Streer (As Is)
Slan go foill
Marc
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Marc
Any address for photo?
Regards Quaxer
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Quaxer - i admire your atention to detail! good points well made.
The photos can be seen at the link
http://www.dublin.ie/forums/album.php?albumid=375
Slan go foill
Marc
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Think there is a subtle difference in the shop facade. If you look at all the photos on the link they mostly show more decorative woodwork, especially at the sides at the bottom of each corner. The old photo is quite plain at the bottom but more decorative at the top, the pictures in the link show the facade at the bottom on both sides to be more decorative at the bottom and plain at the top of each side. Hoping this makes sense !
Carol
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I can see what may be a significant difference between the picture in Reply #66 and the original building.
If you drop a perpendicular line from the left-hand side of the upstairs windows, on the original photo the line would run through the door openings on the ground floor. On the building in Reply # 66 the same line appears to miss both doors.
If these buildings were built with a single, solid lintel between the ground and first floor, it would be quite easy to re-locate doors, windows etc on the ground floor.
If they were built with individual lintels over each door and window opening, it would be a major structural change to re-locate these features.
Maybe someone with more experience on the architecture of old Dublin buildings would comment
Dara.
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This mystery seems to be getting to me almost as much as you Bridget :D
Have been staring at the two pictures together and another couple of things come to mind. If a second story was added afterwards wouldn't the premises next door have been (origianally) the same height ? as it looks the building next door had always had another storey and the brickwork looks too old to have been added later. Also the height of the windows on the ground floor (if you look at the pictures together) in comparison are at different levels, even if the ledge had been removed. Just more rambling thoughts.....
Carol
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Bridget
Dara'scomment led me to look further and I think that the left part of the right hand window sill projects further over the shop door entance tan in the new photo.
Further the projecting flashing/flaunching under the shingle in the older photo (to prevent rainwater splashing on the lower front of the building is not in the same relationship to the adjoining property's sign board flashin in the new photo from Marc.
Again there is no gap on side of the building where the down spout was unless the shop window was expanded to the right (Note also somebody has sealed the gap between the 2 buildings)
Re the roller shutter doors-It would be highly unusual to have such doors as a front door so I suspect that upstairs was used as a store for down stairs business.
I am still convinced that close examination of you photo will reveal text or impression of text that might give a date or name. Ask your local library where you could find a free manifying source or maybe a University .On this if you rouse somebody's interest doors will open for you.
Regards to all Quaxer
l
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The square thing in front of the door - would that be to a cellar (which would rule out some streets)?
Or is it to do with drainage (which would mean the City Council might have an input)?
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Wow, A lot of very interesting theories put forward in the last few posts. The only thing I can add is the following. I know my G. Grandparents would have been too poor to have been able to rent the rooms above the shop as a store room; they would not have carried that much stock! I also know they were living in Stafford St at that time so they were not the tenants of the above rooms. I wonder if Marc’s friend could get hold of the number of the look alike shop in Parnell St and we could maybe back track from there. From the first day I set eyes on this old photo I always said I felt the shop was in Parnell or Capel St.
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bridget
Maybe you misunderstood me or I did not express myself so well. I intended to refer to the new photo supplied by Marc because it had roller shutter doors. which would be highly unusual for a private residence in Dublin and suiable for industrial use i.e. upstairs used for storage in recent times not by your folks.
Good man yourself Dublin1850 !! It could well be a skylight for a cellar so common in the Capel Street area and many other s.(Let us not become glued to Capel Street area as The Rotunda notice is far from conclusive that was the area.
All the best Quaxer
Do look at the writing as we need all the clues we can get.
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Having looked at both of these pictures until I am blue in the face I have come to the conclusion that by now, if you will pardon my saying so, we are all clutching at straws! For all the suggestions re alterations, (mine included) I honestly do not think this old building would have withstood alterations to the extent suggested, it would have surely collapsed? So, although the new picture is very like the old I do not think they are one and the same. Quaxer, I now see the writing but, alas, can’t make it out.
My hubby has put forward the suggestion the square outside the shop is in fact a rubber mat despite my pointing out, if that was the case it would be more central to the doorway. We are now glaring at each other across the dinner table! Lol
I had forgotton all about those thick glass squares one would see on the pavement outside some shops. Onwards! Bridget
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Bridget
Steady on as it is not worth it .He could leave you with just 10 bob in his will.
Seriously, many Dublin buildings have lasted 200 years or more as if they were no good to start with they just fell down when relatively new. The most serious fault on the part of owners was that they failed to maintain the pointing i.e. the outside cement ffilling between the bricks and the rain got into the mortar.
Note however, that the brick facings so damaged in photo have been covered over by a rendering (a cement Layer) in photo 2 , a normal remedy for damaged brickwork.
And to think I restarted all this but do keep looking and get someone with the equipment to study the photo.
Regards Quaxer.
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There are people on Archiseek http://www.archiseek.com/content/forumdisplay.php?f=49 who should be able to narrow it down by the number of glass panels in the windows, height of doorway, quality of bricks etc.
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To change the subject slightly – Revolving Heels were circular heels that could be rotated as the heel wore down. This must have been one of the earliest ‘Green’ inventions, as the heel could be re-used a number of times before it needed to be replaced. Picture here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06zp/
If you look closely, the left-hand window appears to have a picture of the heels right in the centre of the words ‘Revolving Heels’.
Dara..
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for Bridget,
While looking for family in the 1911 census dublin I came across Meyles C Lawlor and John Lawlor of denzille street dublin.Maybe of interest.
ed
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Trish, I have applied to join the forum and will post the photo there as you mentioned, they may be able to give a little more information on it. Thanks again.
Dara, My! Well spotted. When I first posted this old photo, a Rootchatter said every time you look at this picture you find something new. That has been the case. Now I fear if Great Gran lifts her apron to wipe the sweat from her brow a few more children will pop out, Lol
Magicaled, I came across those names early in my research and thought, “Yippee, I’ve hit the jackpot. When the certs arrived they were not my Lawlor’s. Kind of you to notice and mention it, thank you.
Quaxer, Again some good points, thank you.
Bridget
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Bridget, i think i pointed you to the wrong shop - look at the shop next door - has the drain covers out side, down pipes etc - 'Bigby' on http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?p=379563#post379563 is going to go back and photo it with the shutters up.
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Look at the cellar covers in front of the building. I don't think this is it either.
Dara.
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If that is where I think it is I passed that shop every day some sixty years ago on my way to school!! It is just around the corner from where my Great grandparents and grandparents lived. The shop on the corner was Timothy’s Chemist where we bought liquorice bark. When you reach the corner and turn left you are in Capel St. If you stand facing the corner you can see Bretons (sp) Pawnshop and Capel St. library. Is that correct! What a turn up for the books! Hey guys, things are hotting up here, Lol
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Bridget
Thanks for yours First one to hand Thoms 1951 shows:
No.108 Capel Street Brereton Pawn Broker
No. 60 Capel Street Timoney Chemist
Back to your old photo shown in No,68 There is a black line 1 inch from the top inclined slightly inclined to the left ,it blacks out the top of the photo partly and was either taken through a partly open window or doorway or else that has something to do with the old photo process.
Please supply a stret and no. for this photo as I do not have an intimate knowledge of each turning there.
Regards Quaxer
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Looked at the latest photo and had to laugh.
I remembered being there in January and taking photos as Little Britain Street is now all rebuilt so I guessed Great Britain Street (now Parnell Street) would be the closest I would get to a picture of what the shops in Little Britain Street (where my gran's family lived) used to look like.
I think the one in the original picture is the next shop along in the other direction.
Will now try to attcah one of my pics. The brickwork upstairs has changed but maybe reinforced to stop it falling down completely as so much of it has already gone. But the difference in the front panels is there, the scrolls etc. and the window styles.
What does everyone think?
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oops,
can't be that one either as just spotted that there is an extra door there.
Was the original one perhaps on Little Britain Street?, all redeveloped now (sometime in the 1960s).
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... If you stand facing the corner you can see Bretons (sp) Pawnshop and Capel St. library. Is that correct! ...
And if you turn right you are heading up Bolton Street?
Brereton's was still there in the early 70's.
Dara.
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Bridget
Ithink the modern photo shown by Dudley W is of the same premises as on Marc's photo
Will Dudley W please state the precise location on Parnell Street . Is that either Moore Lane or Jervis Lane immediately to the left of the lamp standard? Will all who display photos when possible indicate exactly what they show and their origins.
Will every body please remember that we must still show the link between the original one in Bridget's possession and the new ones shown by Marc and Dudley,
Regards Quaxer
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Bridget,
It is a pleasure to help if I can.
ed
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Bridget
Ithink the modern photo shown by Dudley W is of the same premises as on Marc's photo
Will Dudley W please state the precise location on Parnell Street . Is that either Moore Lane or Jervis Lane immediately to the left of the lamp standard? Will all who display photos when possible indicate exactly what they show and their origins.
Will every body please remember that we must still show the link between the original one in Bridget's possession and the new ones shown by Marc and Dudley,
Regards Quaxer
Sorry Quaxer,
I thought somone had already clearly identified the previous photo as looking towards the junction between Parnell Street and Capel Street. And yes, mine is a view looking the other way across the same building to the end of the block to show the buildings to the other side of it.
Necessary comparisons with the first picture are the lines where the tops of the shop front line up, whether they have those small scroll pillars towards the top of the window or long squared off pillars (these seem to be original decorative features of the architecture but possibly superficial and removable), comparative heights of the panels beneeath the window, and the one that I blatantly missed there - whether the door to the upper floors is to the left or right of the shop windows.
I don't yet know Dublin well, but from a map I would identify the little lane next to the antique shop as the top of Wolfe Tone Street. We're the other end of the Street from Moore Street.
I tried to take some photos of the architecture of the older buildings in Moore Street too and would suggest that the distance between the top of the shop windows and the bottom of the next floor windows is a little closer there, more like the earlier picture, but many parts of a number of the original buildings have already been rebuilt at least once so there are few reallly original shop fronts there. I had been disappointed to hear that most of the famous historical "terrace" would go in the redevelopment but it was clear from viewing it that parts of it were not original anyway.
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Dara, Yes, that’s correct, if you turn right you are going towards Bolton St. (Good old Brereton’s)
Quaxer, Parnell St. is a very long street running from Capel St to as far as Summer Hill. The shops shown by both Marc and D. W. (same shops, different angles) are only four shops from the corner of Capel St. so, the very end or the very beginning of Parnell St depending what way you look at it! Regarding your question on post no 68. The whole purpose of this thread is to identify where the shop was, I have no idea. The chemist (on the corner in new photos) had two windows, one in Parnell St and one in Capel St. I see by your post the address was 60 Capel St. I wish it had been the other way around as that would have given us the number for the mystery shop either 57 or 63.
I wonder if you could have a look at this. Just a thought. If my memory serves me right next door to Timothy’s chemist on the Parnell St side was a newsagent/sweet shop named Finlaters. (sp) Could you find a listing and number for that and we could perhaps work back three shops and have the name of the mystery shop? Thank you.
D.W. I knew little Brittan St well. My mother’s sister lived there. Again I passed through it every day going to school. I seem to recall there were only about two shops there but I can find out that for sure as my cousin now in his 70s was born and brought up there.
The corner of your photo shown the single storied grey building was once a little place named “The Nip Inn” where one could buy the most delicious soup with a great chunk of bread! It was very popular with men coming from the local beamish! The laneway where it stands was Jervis Lane. The street after that was Wolfe Tone St, once names Stafford St where my G. Grandparents lived. It will give you an idea of how close they were to the shops pictured. Bridget
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Hi Bridget,
I think we've talked before about Little Britain Street. My gran's family moved there sometime between 1911 and 1917, after her father had died, and stayed until about the 1960s when the street was rebuilt.
It was lovely to get a short visit there in January and we got my Gran's birth certificate from the Research rooms and then found the house in Moore Street where she was born.
Thanks to a cousin, I've just got the 1901 census and now find that her father seems to have had another family before he married my Great-grandmother, so lots more to research.
I'd love to know any details you can find out about Little Britain Street, especially the shops, and see any old photos, if you have any.
best wishes,
Sheila
[added: just checked on multimap and yes, that is Upper Jervis Lane on that map - it doesn't appear at all on the tourist map that I was using so I thought that the first Street going from Capel Street must be Wolfe Tone Street]
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Bridget and others
Thanks for last 3 which for some reason did not not show on my you've got mail . I've no wish to ignore correspondents but have only a limited knowledge of computers so some kind person please help.
I'm a Dubliner by birth and walked around Capel Street and Parnell Street in the 60s but can only claim a general knowledge of the area. I send an apology to all who think that I'm pushy as regards precision as to streets and numbers but when I restarted this query my sole aim was to help to identify the position of Bridget's photo.
Dudley W I think the wooden pillars and scrolls were moveable and further are quite common. A house I owned in London previously owned by a super builder had similar around the front windows. Further, I think I have a book which I identifies the style of moulding.
I searched for Lawlors in my Irish Times work 1859-1901, found nothing in Little Britain Street or Jervis Lane but found the following in Stafford Street. On P.7 in an advert on 27th April 1871 - Mrs Lawlor. I think that it is too early for the original photo (which is about 1900-1910 in my opinion) but may be worth keeping in reserve.
Bridget,if I may say so as the originator of the photo would you not write down in 2 separate lists the pro and cons for linking the original photo with the new ones using all all the points raised by the various correspondents.
Regards Quaxer
R
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All
Just for clarity - i believe the lawlor shop to be the one with roller shutters and brickwork above with the down pipe & grates on the path - not the part rendered.
Bigby over on Dublin forums has said he will return there to photo it when the roller are up and i will ask him to photo the detailing over the door.
Marc
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All
Just for clarity - i believe the lawlor shop to be the one with roller shutters and brickwork above with the down pipe & grates on the path - not the part rendered.
Bigby over on Dublin forums has said he will return there to photo it when the roller are up and i will ask him to photo the detailing over the door.
Marc
But the whole of the top of the building would have to have been rebuilt.
The discrepancy between the one row and three rows of bricks between the flashing and the upper window sills could be a difference in where the flashing was bonded into the building but on the original picture there are at least seven rows of bricks above the window lintel bricks whereas in the modern pictures there are only four before the next storey window sills.
The panels beneath the shop windows are also higher on the right, if anything, whereas the original building shows a lower panel on the right of the picture.
Aerial map views show shops of a similar age appear to still exist all down one side of Capel Street. However many other small street around there have been completely rebuilt during in the twentieth century.
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Sorry for the confusion - i think the addition of the new photo is confusing!
I am referring to the shop to the right of the rendered building not the pile of rubble...
which, on that point, Dublin council should be ashamed of themselves - Most expensive city in Europe and they have buildings in this state of repair. It looks as though it might fall on people passing by!
It pains me to say, but i would have to say that Dublin is singularly the least attractive capital city in Europe. I recently returned home for three weeks and i just felt that the whole placed was desperate in need or restoration not demolition. Very sad
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Sorry for the confusion - i think the addition of the new photo is confusing!
I am referring to the shop to the right of the rendered building not the pile of rubble...
Me too, there are three storeys with windows.
The picture posted by Bridget shows far more rows of bricks above the second storey windows than exist in the modern building.