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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: lostnconfused on Sunday 14 January 07 01:31 GMT (UK)
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My paternal granmother was a lovely woman.
A lying, decitful, lovely woman.
My father, his brother and his sister are all alive and yet none of them have any clear idea as to where, when and to whom their own mother was born.
We have no definitive infomation, other than what is on the marriage cert and even that seems to be iffy, very iffy.
Whilst alive Annie Morris, nee Barnes changed her age a few times, as well as her place of birth; we think. She NEVER spoke about her family, certainly not in clear detail. There was a suggestion that she had a brother, but no one ever met him - or even saw a photo!
So, what would you do?
Where does one start?
We've searched all birth records up to 20 years either side of the 'best guess', and all over the country. We've paid for 15 certs and we have no match as yet. All the obvious targets are now used up.
She was born after the 1901 census, so we seemingly wait for 2011?
I am, like an English cricketer facing Warne, stumped.
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Hi
I really am sorry that I can't help you, but just had to let you know that the cricket joke was terrible, it might be true, but still terrible (LOL)
Take care
Half Pint
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Lol,
Any reply is welcome (another cricket reference?)
Andy
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OK Andy !
You've told us what you don't know .... so tell us what you do know !! :) :)
What about her marriage certificate ? name of her father ... would lead you to him in census .........
What about your Dad's birth certificate ?... and the certificates of his brothers - do they all say the same thing ?
Also what part of Lancashire were the family living when your Dad was born ??
What about death certificates .... do you have any ?
What else do you know ? ... was her father in the Armed Forces ? ..... tell us any family stories ..... true or
false ......
Come on Andy ............. you haven't stumped the middle wicket yet !! ;D ;D ;D
Annie :)
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Hi,
Thanks for your interest.
All of the birth certs confirm what we know from the marriage cert.
But, ignoring my cataract induced poor vision we cant seem to find a cross ref'
Annie Morris nee Barnes M. 12 Oct 1940, aged 24 - Mancheter - Father James Barnes - Labourer
Husband Ivan Clayton Morris - aged 38 at time of marriage
There is no record of any military service.
Suggested that Annie was born in Rochdale or Radcliffe but no definite answer there.
The address registered is a dead end for the 1901 census, 20 Princess St Moss Side, Manchester (is there any other search we can carry out? )
The family moved to Swinton at the time of my dads birth.
Annie died at Bury General Hospital, 26 June 1992.
Any help of course is welcome.
Andy
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What is the date and place of birth on the death certificate ?
Just a thought.
Did she have a passport ? or a driving licence ? Don't these state a date and place of birth ?
Or a pension/superann. from a company where she worked.
Good Luck
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I checked the d of b from the Death Indexes 9th Sept 1914. (where did that date come from ?)
By going to the birth indexes, the nearest match is Annie Barnes Stockport Register Dec Q 1914 mothers maiden name Wilson and by using Cheshire BMD you can narrow that down to;
Reddish & Stockport (part).
Stockport and Moss Side aren't that far apart
The downside to this is that John Edward Barnes married Nellie Wilson in Reddish in 1914, so this might be their daughter. However there's no other Stockport entries on Free B M D yet with a mother's maiden name of Wilson
If she were 24 though at marriage. She should have been born 1915/16
You go on to say that the address at marriage was a dead end. Why should it be ? Have you checked who was on the electoral roll there in 1939 ? Manchester Library will do that for you if you e mail them. Or you can do it yourself by going there.
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Seems you done a lot of digging on my behalf, so thanks for that.
There is a lot of inconsistancy with Nana's dates as i suggested on my original post, so im not surprised that datesx arent exact when cross referencing!
Annie had no Driving Licence, Passport or pension, other than state pension - and none of the doc's for that were retained.
The Electoral Role is an interesting idea and i will definitley pursue that avenue, thanks for the suggestion.
Im double checking things as far as the Annie b. in Stockport is concerned, but from memory we discounted her as a non-match.
But we all make mistakes dont we?
Cheers.
Andy and Ange
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Just realised thar our Annies' father is James so that sinks that one i think.
Andy
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What was the source of the date of birth on the death cert ? And the place of birth ?
It's exact, so someone must have known something or thought they did. If they didn't, it is permissable to put "about 1914" and as broad as England if that's all that's known.
Perhaps she was born elsewhere. There are no Lancashire Annie Barnes in Sept Q 1914 and on;ly two in Dec Stockport and Haslingden
If I were completely stuck, I'd get the death cert for starters.
Finally do the witnesses on the death cert offer you anything ?
Good Luck
Antony
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I thought being "local" may give me an idea of what and where to look - huh think again.
I have family ties to the areas you search but Moss Side was a bit off my usual track - but here's what I haven't found - Princess Street.... there is Princess Road which is the main A road through the area. Perhaps the address should have read Road and not Street.
I have had a trawl through the BMD's et al for the period and no joy either. There are about 15 Annie's born in and around Lancashire and only one I could find registered in Manchester. From 1912 you at least have a chance of matching up mother's maiden names but before that its very difficult. For the maiden names of "Annie"s' I found only two James Barnes matched. One married in Cardiff in 1916 - oooer not likely and another was a James Edgar Barnes who married an Emma Shaw in Rochdale in the March quarter of 1908. (V8e p 71) An Annie Barnes was registered in Prestwich in June 1915 (8d p769) whose mothers maiden name was Shaw- again not tidy.
Back in Rochdale you have Annie Barnes born in Sept 1915 whose mother's maiden name was Brierley but I can't find a Brierley married to a James Barnes on the BMD from 1912 or Free BMD (for a page match) prior to 1912. But that of course does not mean that there is not one somewhere!
In Manchester in Sept 1915 (v 8d p279) Annie Barnes is registered with a mother's maiden name of Haslam - again no James Barnes married a Haslam that I can see.
Hitting a wall like this I would now go on and check out the address like you were doing and check out the witnesses from the marriage certificate. You could also try and track down the actual marriage entry and see if there has been a transcription error. Marriage cert info is provided by the persons themselves. Death certificate information can be estimates but that date of birth appears to be a definitive. The informant will be listed so where did the info come from as Certificate Man noted.
Jude
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Hi Jude !
I found the Annie Barnes ( Haslam ) in Manchester too ........ but couldn't find the marriage !!
Back to the drawing board !!
We'll get there Andy and Ange !! :) :) :)
Annie :) :)
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Welcome to my nightmare!!!
Seriously though thanks for trying.
The problem stems from the lack of definitive information, i was sure we werent alone in this problem. But to be honest i thought there would be a way round it, somehow.
I suppose the long wait for the next census release offers some hope.......shall i join the queue now?
Andy and Ange
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I still think the death cert is the way forward.
It should give you a place of birth.
Even if the date is wrong; if you know where she was born then you have a start. It should also give her maiden name. Whilst you think it's Barnes, I suspect that you think it might not be.
Surely it's worth a shot.
Antony
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We're now in the position of doubting everything that was handed down to us from relatives.
It's a bit of a tough situation as we dont feel that we can turn round and say 'hey your mam wasnt telling you the truth'.
There does seem to be an underlying secrecy that kept people at arms length, so to speak. My mam for example says that 'Annie was a bit queer when it came to family, i never met anyone. NOt even at my wedding'
I was quite young when she died so never really got to the question asking stage, thats a shame as i might know more first hand.
The search continues........
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Annie told me she was born in Rochdale. She also said she had a sister and a brother.
We all did as your nana requested regarding her family....dont ask. So we as good children did just that.
She worked for a time on oxford Road Manchester where she met Ivan. Annie was not the type you pushed a question with but it does seem strange that Ivans side of the family dont {or wont} seem to know much. Maybe asking Judy in Lydbrook will lead a clue as Fred was close to my dad before his death. The only other family member who dug into our history was Ivan and his wife still retains those records I believe.
Good luck Andy but if Annie wanted it buried she would have done a good job about it.....
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I'm sorry I can't help with this. I can say however that I appreciate your frustration and possible anger at your grandmother.
To call her "lying and deceitful" is a bit strong if Annie wanted it buried she would have done a good job about it.....
My own Mother would not speak about her family except to say that she was orphaned, brought up in a children's home and that she had a brother. We have been lucky in that we have managed to uncover a great deal about Mum's life from her birth to the 2nd WW, and we now know some of the reasons why she didn't want to talk!
I'm sure you're gran had her reasons, don't be too hard on her, remember that their generation saw things very differently to the way we see things today :)
Good luck with your search.
Suey
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Hi Anthony
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Lostnconfused hasn't been online here since 2010 but as long as their email address hasn't changed they should receive email notifications that we have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
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I have no problem with my mothers request and will do as she asked even though I do wonder about it from time to time.
If Andy wants to pursue it that is fine as well but as her son I will do as she requested all those years ago on that summers day.
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Hi Anthony, so pleased to hear that you are willing to abide by your mothers wishes.
In our case I had a brother and sister who for their own peace of mind needed to know certain facts and our research did indeed lay some demons to rest for them. Knowing what we do now gives us an insight as to why Mum wanted things buried and there are still some un-answered questions but we're happy to leave things as they are.
Suey
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Hi Anthony,
I am sorry but lostnconfused email is not working at the moment but I have found a postal address and I sent a copy along with a letter explaining how to get back in touch.
Posted Today.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Hi folks,
After receiving a rather pleasant note from Sarah I have updated the email address so personal messages/notifications will now land where they need.
Thanks Sarah ;-)
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Welcome back ;D
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I have no problem with my mothers request and will do as she asked even though I do wonder about it from time to time.
If Andy wants to pursue it that is fine as well but as her son I will do as she requested all those years ago on that summers day.
Hello Tony,
I understand how things will be different for you as of course Nana was a much bigger part of your life.
I don't understand what you mean by "what she requested all those years ago on that summers day" as you have never mentioned any sort of conversation you had with Nana when we chatted about family history?
I know Dad was very frustrated in his last few months as we had never been able to answer the questions he was asking and he, at that time, really wanted to know more and find the answers that we have struggled to get close to.
It also intrigues me as to how you stumbled across this rather old thread ;-)
Cheers
Andy
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If you put a name into your search box, it will often bring you to Rootschat, so simple ,unlike your Grandmothers birth details, I did have a few thoughts , but your post was a bit difficult to start , try again with the simple facts, that you think may be true, I did find a baptism that may be worth taking further,
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You mentioned Swinton,
What was the connection,
St Peter Swinton,
born 27th Feb, baptised 24th March 1915,
Annie Barnes,
daughter of John Barnes and Elizabeth,
father a collier,
abode 45 Swinton Hall Road
John married Elizabeth Worswick in 1914,
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You mentioned Swinton,
What was the connection,
St Peter Swinton,
born 27th Feb, baptised 24th March 1915,
Annie Barnes,
daughter of John Barnes and Elizabeth,
father a collier,
abode 45 Swinton Hall Road
John married Elizabeth Worswick in 1914,
Wrong father there as well as wrong dates.
Its all rather frustrating.
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Lost and confused , how do you know if the names are wrong , or the dates, have you actualy researched this woman to see what happened to her,
Sorry just trying to help,
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Lost and confused , how do you know if the names are wrong , or the dates, have you actualy researched this woman to see what happened to her,
Sorry just trying to help,
I appreciate the help I really do.
My Nana provided dates etc to her own kids that do not match any records on the normal BDM searches. The same facts are not even matched on her marriage cert.
The info on her death cert was provided by her daughter (my aunt) from the original info she was given so that is a cyclical search that leads nowhere.
Its something we have had on the back burner for a while but this re-ignited thread has set us off again ;-)
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Hi
Have you check for variants of Annie ie Ann, Anne or Hannah
Margp
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What made me type mum's name in the search box and come back here again I will never know but here I am
It was a summers day mum was sat in the green chair by the fireplace near the cupboards (usually dad sat here) it was sunny and the front door was open. She was knitting and I was playing on the old green hearth rug. How and why I asked the question I will never truly remember but I have this feeling it was something to do with her sister that had passed between mum and dad and being a kid I asked the question. She told me not to ask again and as a child I did as I was told. The reason it sticks in my mind is that the answer itself put an end. Sure I was curious and I have never stopped being. Sure I want to know but I told her I wouldnt enquire again and I aint going to heaven (I hope) and finding mum waiting there to give me a rollocking......no chance.
Bearing in mind all the brothers and sisters dad had it has always seemed more than odd that no one knows NOTHING......they must have done and we have hit a very well constructed brick wall.
Lastly losing Len tore me up more than you would think. We were never really close I admit that but he was always there.then suddenly he was gone. The family has never been close and that is all our faults.....love you all
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I'm beginning to think that her surname wasn't Barnes. I looked for her on the 1939 register and it should show her name as Ann/Annie Barnes and then when she married written between Annie and Barnes in a different ink and handwriting it should say Morris and there's no record in the whole country for those two names. Maybe someone else could check this out as I may have missed something.
I wonder if she'd been married before and Barnes wasn't her maiden name. Could you scan her marriage certificate so we can look for some clues?
Margaret
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I wonder if the actual scenario is similar to one I have in my tree.
This lady was born in 1918 and registered under her birth mothers name. She was then adopted, privately as formal adoption did not exist, and was thereafter known by her adopted parents name and it is her adopted father named on her marriage certificate as her father. We were lucky in that her date of birth was correct and she was registered with a middle name of her adopted parents and there was an agreement drawn up between them and her birth mother so we could trace the name. Otherwise we would never have known the name she was registered as at birth.
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Is there perhaps any significance in the fact that the marriage took place in wartime?
A relative of mine was in Manchester, on "War Work" during the war, although she had no links there, one of many. I recall her telling me of how, when one of "the bunch" was getting married, and, like her, they usually came from far away, they all would rally round to provide things, and most attended the wedding, as usually the bride's family couldn't make it. I believe my relative's speciality was providing the "honeymoon suitcase"- she said it'd been on about 20 honeymoons by the time it went on her own, late in the War.
If Annie was not originally from Manchester area, but had merely been working there, then perhaps that could have accounted for a lack of family?
Don't give up - someday you'll get there, I'm sure.
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Just for the record, have you eliminated:
Ann Barnes born 22nd July 1912 Walkden, to John James Barnes (Collier) and Elizabeth?
Ann Barnes born 10th Nov 1911 Failsworth to James Earl Barnes and Gertrude (Longshaw)
Ann Barnes born 1911 Lancs to James Barnes and Margaret (Brailsford)
?