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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Berkshire => Topic started by: Harold1066 on Thursday 11 January 07 19:56 GMT (UK)
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Looking for information on the MESSENGER family know that they were in Chaddleworth C1750's more information greatly appreciated.
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Did you receive any response to your query re messengers in Chaddleworth? I've traced my messengers to Chaddleworth and have some info,although I did this many years ago and will have to go digging to find it. What info do you have, if any, and what Messenger's are you looking for? Mine were Elizabeth and Robert.
-- Randy
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Sorry for the delay in replying to this but last year we moved home and I have been busy doing other things and completely forgot about my ROOTSCHAT account until somebody else said it was a good forum, so thought I should look at it and the system remembered that I was a registered user.
Our line of Messengers start with Robert Messenger born C1750 in ? and his wife Elizabeth FROUD born 1753 in Chaddleworth. Through other contacts I have the Froud line back to Nicholas Froud Born 1640 in Wantage.
-Harold1066
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Where have you looked for Robert messenger Harold1066?
Has anyone else found him?
We know Robert and Elizabeth had 8 children baptised in Chaddleworthbut where was he originally from QAAny help would be very welcome.
(You can see the Froud line on my web site)
Trees
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have you seen that there is a coroner report at the Berkshire Record office
Robert Messenger, Chaddleworth COR/WT/1/11/26 14 Sep 1885 1 bdl Contents: (4 docs)
Would be worth a look
Trees
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Trees,
Think this is another Robert Messenger, probably the one that the window in Chaddleworth Church (see image) is dedicated to. It seems that it was almost a unwritten rule that every Messenger family had to have a son called Robert. (at least 4 all alive in the 1880s) this tradition seems so strong that our Messenger family were so keen to keep it going that when the first son they called Robert died the minute the next son was born they called him Robert.
Regards
Harold1066
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What a lovely window it would make a great Christmas card
I've been looking at the history of the Ibex pub kept by Thomas Messenger. So it appears it was originally the farm house owned by Joseph FROUD (FRUDE) but which thomas most people have Joseph 1668 do you agree with this assesment. Do you know if there is a memorial/grave stone for Joseph who died 1747 showing his age?
Trees
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Indeed I did use it for a Christmas card the year it was taken - the original unshrunk version is even better and when I play with the settings you can see the details in the stone work as well.
When we last visited Chaddlworth in 2005 we were trying to find out information about the MESSENGERs and more of their live after they moved from Chaddleworth, in particular trying to locate where they actually lived in Highclere / East Woodhay and did not think to look for FROUD graves - we now live a lot closer so will need to do another visit with a longer list of names to look for.
I have a 'poor' photograph of a Bill of Sale of the IBEX that in 2005 was on dispaly in the pub. This shows it the Freehold being sold by auction on Tuesday May 2nd, 1876 at 3 o'clock in the afternoon on the instructions of the Trustees of the will of Mr Thos. Messenger. The current occupier of the property being a Mr Fox, who was under notice to quit at Michaelmas, and paying £10 per annum rent - features belonging to the tenant.
We know from the 1851 Census returns that Thomas Messenger ( 1792 - 1868) was an Innkeeper, residing with his family in the Ibex Inn, Chaddleworth.
But in 1861 Thomas is listed as a farmer and the Ibex is occupied by a Henry Lovell and his wife Eliza.
In 1871 the Ibex is occupied by John Fox and his family and it appears that the enumerator has written the address as Nodmore (Ibex Inn) for some reason.
What we have worked out yet is why the trustees of Thomas's will left it until 1876 to sell the Ibex - it might have something to do with his wife Caroline since she lived until Nov 1875 - since in 1871 census she is shown as living on an income (rent from the Ibex?).
Harold1066
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For Chaddleworth
Kelly's directory 1848
Messenger John Carpenter Wheelwright
Messenger Thomas Ibex Inn
The post office Directory for 1854 has
MESSENGER Robert farmer and carpenter and
MESSENGER Thomas Ibex & shopkeeper
Harrod & Coy 1876
John Fox baker and vict Ibex
MESSENGER Robert general builder
can you work out which John and Robert these are was it 1 or 2 Roberts
Trees
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Hi Harold1066, I have a feeling that we have been in contact before on another site.
I have this family of Froud/Messenger in my tree. I've plenty on Froud, but not a lot on Messenger.
I also have quite a few Messengers in Stokenchurch, but cannot make a link.
Colin
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Hi rgmess, I have the same people in my tree, but not much on Messenger at Chaddleworth and before. Can you help.
Colin
annamc
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Welcome to Rotschat colin hope you enjoy it as much as I do we are slowly building up a nice group of Froud messenger researchers Ribbo39 is another i 'll alert him to this thread
trees
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have you seen the thread on berkshire look up for PR look up in Chaddleworth for FROUD can anyone here help Ribbo?
Trees
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Hi Annamac,
Think we have swapped information before via G-R.
Except for some information supplied by TREES through her wonderful web-site I have not done a lot on the Berkshire side of the tree. How live closer to Berkshire will need to think about getting to the Record Office and doing some research to tidy up some loose ends and no doubt pick-up some others.
Harold1066
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Trees,
The John Messenger is a new one on me - suspect therefore he is down a side shoot and Wendy and her sister who did the original research some years ago, before computers, did not pick up on him.
Since I have never been to Berkshire's Record Office I think a trip there is needed to see what additional information is available and what other entries they missed.
Harold1066
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Hi Randy, Harold 1066 and Annamac
Have you seen this its at Berkshire RO
Coroner's records Wantage Division cat. case paper ref COR/WT/ 1/11/26 date 14 Sep 1885 Robert MESSENGER Chaddleworth
I think this was Robert son of Joseph and Jane who died age 63 Sep qtr 1885 Wantage 2c 171
I notice on the Surnames interest board some one looking for MESSENGERs in Oxfordshire so I've PM'ed incase our Robert was from across the county boarder. By the way make sure you put your surname interests on the list (click at the bottom of this page Your Surname interests)
Trees
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Hi Harold. No, I haven't seen the coroner report you referenced, but I will look it up. I've been very busy the last many months so haven't had a chance to look into much, and actually didn't remember I had joined this board! Got to get better control of my time...! Interestingly, I am on a sort term work assignment in the London area and one of my goals while I was here was to get to the BRO. Wouldn't you know, I've yet to do it. I hope to be able to do that in the next few weeks.
Also hope to get more time to really look at all the queries on this board. The Messengers in the St. Andrew's window are mine and I do have some info on them, but it was gathered quite a while ago and I need to convert it over from my very old Mac to my current PC so I can do something with it. One of these days...
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Welcome back rgmess Harold1066, Annmac and I all have Robert MESSENGER and Elizabeth nee FROUD on our trees are they the Robert and Elizabeth you speak of? If so we would love to share our research with you and like to know how the "Window"Messengers fit in. With 4 of us working together we should be able to get some results.
I have asked if anyone knows if the MIs for Chaddleworth have been transcribed and where they can be found but so far no answers
Trees
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harold 1066 about the Robert who died 1885 with the Coroner's inquest don't you think it was Robert b abt 1824 son of Joseph (1786)and Jane? I thought he was the one who died Sep qtr 1885 wantage District
Messenger Robert 63 Wantage 2c 1?1
by the way I have a marriage for him and Elizabeth Jane PORTER Sept Qtr 1857 Wantage District Messenger Robert 63 Wantage 2c 1?1
Now are these the Robert and Elizabeth on rgmess tree and are they the Window MESSENGERS?
I do hope rgmess can help with this one.
Trees
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All,
From my understanding the Window is dedicated to Robert & Elizabeth Jane Messenger (nee Porter), see image attached for wording of the dedication. For some reason throughout the censuses Elizabeth is called Jane.
Robert was baptised 31 Mar 1822 in Chaddleworth - (from research by my wife and her sister - believe Chaddleworth PRs) he was the son of Joseph & Jane Messenger. His death is recorded in 1885 - Wantage Registration District - and he was buried 17 Sept 1885 (again from research by my wife and her sister - believe Chaddleworth PRs). So this would make him the must likely candidate for the Corner's inquest. ( he is my wife's 1st Cousin 3x removed - via Robert & Elizabeth (nee Froud) Messenger.
All I know about his wife is that she was born 1836, Bracknell, Berkshire and in 1851 was living in Chaddleworth with her grand-mother Elizabeth Beesley.
They have 9 children - I have names & approx birth years, but no details of their marriages or subsequent children.
Robert seems to have been very prosperous in that:
In 1851 he is a Timber Merchant with his mum.
In 1861 he is a Timber merchant, Farmer (150 acres - employing 6 men & 2 boys) and a Builder (employing 10 men and 1 boy in trade).
in 1871 he is a Builder employing 4 men and Farmer of 492 acres employing 19 men 5 boys and 2 women.
in 1881 he is a Farmer of 680 acres employing 14 men, 7 boys and 2 women.
His father Joseph was born 1786 and died before the 1851 census and was the son of Robert and Elizabeth Messenger - Nee Froud(e).
His mother Jane was born about 1783 in the Mile End, London - not sure why she moved to Berkshire. In the 1851 census she is a Widow and Timber Merchant. In the 1861 census she is living with her son Robert.
Harold1066
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Don't forget there was a tenth child who sadly only lived 36 hrs Agnes mar qtr 1871
great photograph the close up of the inscription is a great help I to think Robert is the one as you say subject of the coroners inquest but was he the one who died June qtr 1885 it seems a long delay to the funeral.
rgmess can you add anything to this please?
Trees
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Don't forget there was a tenth child who sadly only lived 36 hrs Agnes mar qtr 1871
great photograph the close up of the inscription is a great help I to think Robert is the one as you say subject of the coroners inquest but was he the one who died June qtr 1885 it seems a long delay to the funeral.
rgmess can you add anything to this please?
Trees
Memorial windows can be put in place decades after any funeral - a year or two would certainly be commonplace. There could well be information in the records of the church - adding a window like this would involve negotiations with the parochial church council etc.
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Hi Newbury I agree the window could well be well after the funerl my query is the registration of the death I found for June qtr and the funeral in September
How long a delay would there be for a coroner's inquest?
Trees
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OK I am now officially MAD the registration for the death was SEPTEMBER qtre not June
Trees with a very red face. :-[
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How long a delay would there be for a coroner's inquest?
Inquests seem to have been held within days of the death.
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Remember the window is dedicated to both Robert and his wife so suspect that it would not have been thought about until both Robert & Elizabeth had died. At present I have not found the death registration for Elizabeth Jane Messenger, but she would only have been 73 if she lived to 1909.
rgmess:- Have you got any information?
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Elizabeth Jane died Mar qtr 1906 Wantage 6 317 age 68
For some daft moment I hadthought he died jun qte not Sep qtr 1885 :-[
Trees
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Hi all, so that I can see the wood from the trees ( so to speak), could you all send me what you have on our group of Messengers. Then I can add them to mine, analyis the information, send everyone a copy of my findings.
From what I can deduce Harold is pretty well spot on. We live a short bus ride from the Berks Record office.
If you can send your info to my email address it might be more helpfull. It is
Moderator Comment: e-mail removed to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use the secure Personal Message (PM) system to exchange email addresses and other personal information. Thank You.
It is me that has this large amount of Messengers in Stokenchurch - they enter my tree via another branch. What makes me think there is a connection somewhere is that they are all in the furniture trade.
Cheers
Colin
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Colin - I will re-do the report I did for Trees (over the last couple of days its been added to) - But I was going to try and get over to Chaddleworth this weekend - the wife does not know this yet, it will be a surprise for her, as long as the weather is OK - I have some photographs of the Messenger Graves in Chaddleworth church but they are not brilliant so want some more also want to look for other names that come from there (i.e. Frouds etc).
Trees: I have just searched Ancestry and found the Death of Elizabeth J Messenger (of the window) as:
"1906 - Jan/Mar - Wantage, Berkshire - Vol: 2c Page: 204"
Her death in 1906 would mean that it only took the kids 3 years to decided on a window and the subject and get permission to have it installed, expect if you wanted to do something similar today it would take a lot longer.
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Thanks Harold1066 Don't know where i got the other number I think it must have been the last think I was transferring and hadn't cleared strange I had the right ref on my tree
I've sent a copy of your last tree on to Colin to go on with OK
You bet getting a faculty for a window would take ages you should see how long its taken us to get permission for a hand rail to help people
Trees
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Hi Trees,
I wondered if i could help you with any of your Froud family :)
I see from your website most of them came from Wantage and surrounding villages ;)
I have PRs for these places and would be happy to help you and anyone else if you are stuck :)
Sue
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Wow what a wonderful offer I will certainly take you up on that give me a couple of minutes and I'll get my data required book out
Many thanks
Hazel
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Right Sue here we go lets start with a couple of direct line sticking points
Baptism and parents of Elizabeth REEVES abt 1780? she married 14 Oct 1802 in Longcot
William GRUNDY m Martha ? They died in CHILDREY but he was b in Sparshot only one known child Isaac b 20 Jun 1806 in Childrey any sight of a marriage or more children??
Bapt and parents of Martha MADDONS or MADDOMs she m Robert ROBY 25 Dec 1776 in Steverton they had 7 ch in Charney Bassett would also like deaths for Robert and Martha
Good luck and a huge thank you for trying
Hazel
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Hi Hazel,
Sorry i dont have Longcot, Sparshot or Childrey PRs but did search surrounding villages
but came up with nothing im afraid. :(
Martha Maddons/Maddoms i couldn't find her baptism either. I searched Steventon as this was
where they married also Abingdon and all nearby viillages with no luck >:(
Ok i did find this from Charney Bassett PRs
Baptisms
Jan 14 1756 Robert Roby son of Robert and Anamaria ( incase you didn't have it )
Children of Robert and Martha ( name spelt Roby and Robey )
Oct 15 1780 William
Aug 31 1788 Anna Maria
May 23 1790 Mary
Jan 27 1793 Giles
Jan 25 1795 Martha
Other children it says parents Stephen and Martha ??? Also why such a big gap between William
and Anna Maria ???
I then searched Burials and found the following
Sep18 Martha Roby age 64
Jun 3 1828 Robert Roby age 72
Nov 13 1839 Martha Robey age 72
Oct 6 1841 Stephen Roby age 80
I went back and searched again and found Stephen was Roberts brother.
I can give you details of Roberts brothers and sisters if needed :)
Let me know your thoughts on this please :)
Sue
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Many thanks Sue you've made an ordinary day great
Robert & Martha also had Thomas Mar 26 1777 Steventon staight after the wedding so I wonder if it was Martha's home village.
I did wonder if there would be another child in the 1780-1788 gap was there a burial in either Steventon or Charney Bassett do you know?
Robert & Anna Marianee Weston m 28 Nov 1754 in Charney Bassett I haven't got either of their baptisms they had 7 I know of
Robert 1756,Thomas 1757, john 1760.Stephen1762,Ann1766 & William 1766
So it looks like Stephen is the one m to Martha what were his children 's dates please
Many thanks for the burials I hadn't got any at all what year was the first Martha's death please?
hazel
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Oh sorry Hazel...... Martha's death was 1819 ;D
Will see what i can find ;D
Sue
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Great I think its safe to think that she is Robert and the second one was stephen's wife so that gives us aprox bates of birth for them No sign of Sthen's marriage? the ladies who marry these ROB(E)Y 's are all very shy ;D
Hazel
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Found Thomas's bap in Steventon but no others and no burials
Thought id give you all burials from Charney Bassett PRs
Mar 13 1764 Ann Roby, dau of Robert and Annamaria, infant
Aug 30 1767 Annamaria Robey, wife of Robert, affidavit in woolen
Jul 29 1770 Robert Robey son of William, affidavit
Aug 25 1817 William Robey age 63
Jul 16 1825 John Roby, infant
Mar 5 1826 Martha Roby age 16
Jun 4 1831 Elizabeth Roby age 78
Jan 31 1832 Elenor Roby age 19 months
Aug 18 1852 Sarah Roby age 52
Jan 28 1870 Robert Roby, Union workhouse, Faringdon age 72, died 21 Jan
Oct ? 1875 James Roby age 74
Be back soon ;D
Sue
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Many thanks these will keep me busy for a while
Will probably find more requests over night
Hazel
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Here is the baptism for Annamaria, name spelt Wesson ;D
30 Jun 1728 Annamaria Wesson dau of Joseph
There is no Baptism for her husband and the only Roby/Robey marriage is Roberts.
Will check Annamarias children are correct now ;D
Sue
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All baptisms seem right except there is only 1 in 1766 on May 11 William
Did find these though :)
Feb 11 1764 Ann
Mar 24 1765 Anne
Hazel i have 10 PR cds, which are all Wantage, Faringdon, Wallingford, Abingdon and OMI :)
If you need any look ups from any please just ask as im happy to help :)
Gives me a break from looking for my relatives ;D ;D I need it ;D
Sue
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the Anna maria baptism has eluded us for years Oh well done. Have to go for a short while but believe me you have opened a Pandora's box I'll make up another list but I am so excited with Anna maria that takes us back another generation Were there any siblings? and cherry on the top fingers crossed a marriage for Joseph WESSON?
Hazel see you soon
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Hazel..... Annamaria's father is Thomas, she was b Jun 30 1728, wrote down Thomas in my notes so why i put Joseph i dont know ???
When i read your reply i knew something was wrong, sorry for the mistake :o
Anyway here is her brothers and sisters
Feb 22 1718 John
Mar 11 1721 Marey ( spelt like this )
Dec 29 1723 Ann
Feb 20 1725 Thomas
No marriage or baptism for Thomas im afraid :)
Sue
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Just a quick look between cooking and serving
You are like me ;D I have been so engrossed with the new Messengers that my typing skills have gone through the door typed a 9 for a 0 yesterday to confuse everyone and got myself in a tizzy reading Q2 instead of Q3 for a death I will try to calm down take a deep breath and sort this new information with our existing data and get back tomorrow
Hazel
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I wonder if you could have a look for Robert MESSENGER who tops the list of all our trees please Jamajo he must be somewhere in the region he m Elizabeth FROUD in 1783 so must be b before 1763
Cheers Hazel
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Hi Hazel,
Any idea where eg Wantage, Faringdon areas :)
Sue
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Thats the problem they married and lived in Chaddleworth but although we can trace elizabeth back several generations Robert just seems to apear for the wedding ;D
so I would think any parish south of Wantage
Hazel
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Hi Sue,
As I noted in an earlier message I have a lot of Messengers in the Stokenchurch area. Quite a few generations in fact.
That might be worth a try.
Colin
Annamac
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meanwhile Sue going back to Thomas Wesson
Family Search has Thomas WESSON m Eliza Brier 9 Oct 1715 Longworth do you think these are Annmaria's parentsand if so have you got Longworth PRs?
Hi Colin thats good thinkingfingers crossed Robert MESSENGER must be around some where.
Hazel
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Hi All,
Colin..... Sorry i haven't got Stokenchurch PRs :(
I have searched all cds and cant find a baptism for him im afraid ::)
Did find a Augustine in 1670, John 1667and Thomas in 1664 in Sutton Courtney
Sarah 1742, Ann 1744 and Thomas in 1746 in Wootten
Richard in 1787 in Ewelme
Martha 1769 in Drayton St Leonard
John in 1757 in South Hinksey
All baptisms, name Messenger incase any use to you ;D
Hazel....... That Thomas i think is def Annamaria's father as i have just checked and no other Annamaria baptisms for those years.
I dont have Longworth on my discs but have got Kingston Bagpuize so will have a look now as
its next to Longworth ;D ;D
Sue
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Hazel ...... No marriage for Thomas in KB but found this that may be useful one day :)
Jan 13 1684 Henry Couldry and Ann Weston, o.p.o Fifield
No other Baptisms, Marriages or Burials of this name though.
They liked moving about didn't they :o
Sue
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Hazel..... Thomas had first child in 1718 so maybe the one in Longworth is not him ???
I have just looked on OMI and found this one that could be a possible
11 Feb 1717 Thomas Weston of Steventon to Joan Nevill of Drayton at Ox New College
Name spelt different i know but if they couldn't read or write its likely :)
Sue
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I've claimed them as mine ;D until anyone proves otherwise this means that we now have 2 more generations back from Annmaria thomas was son of another thomas and an Ann which fits nicely as Annamaria had siblings Ann and T the oldest Thomashomas too has 4 ch in Longworth and there is a possible Thomas for him on family Search but he may be a bit too old so I wont claim him yet I think children back to 1686 is just fine.
Now have you by any chance got Letcombe Regis we all need Elizabeth ATTWELL who m Adam FROUD in 1757 so born abt 1735?
Ooh what a difference a week makes this part of my tree had been static for a couple of years now I've been able to add so many Messengers and these WESTON/WESSON etc
I am so glad to be on a roll again wlet us know what names you are looking for to Sue you never know we may have stumbled across them the communities were quite close knit weren't they
Hazel
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ouch wrote to quick for you last reply ah so there was on in Stevento too now which was closer to CB will take a lunch break and have a think not going to burst the bubble yet ;D
hazel
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From OFHS Letcombe Regis PRs
No baptism for Elizabeth but lots of Attewell baptisms ( name spelt like this )
Here is the marriage
Nov 3 1757 Adam Froud otp, carpenter to Elizabeth Attewell sp, otp, by banns
Wits Katherine Goodlake and Ann Hawkes
Just incase it helps with wits ;D
Also these 2 burials only searched to 1800 :)
Died Nov 24 1757, burial Nov 27 Mary Froud, infant
Died Sep 1 1772, burial Sep 3 Elizabeth Froud, wife of Adam
Let me know if i can help anymore with this family.
Will search nearby for baptism for Elizabeth ;D
Sue
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Again cant find Elizabeth ???
Why cant your families stay in one place ;D ;D
Here is Adams burial from Letcombe Regis
Mar 11 1821 Adam Froud of East Challow age 78
Must say there are lots of Attewells in Wantage :o Not Elizabeth though ;D
Hazel i have been lucky with my family and found most of them hence the cds ;D
I did notice you had Goodenough in your tree, mine were from Abingdon and Warborough :)
Sue
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I wonder if the infant Mary was Adam and Elizabeth's child.I have only 2 children for them thomas b 1768 m Mary BUNCE 1778 and Ann b 1760 m RIchard STALLIN 1781 Elizabeth nee ATTWELL died 1772 so there was time for more children
I have nothing on Richard STALLIN other than the m
Mary Bunce goes back a couple of generations to Stanford in the vale
Our Goodenoughs are from Devon strangely there are Frouds in Devon too I would have thought Froud is a fairly uncommon name so did wonder if there will ever be a connection.
Oh boohoo Wales have lost to S Africa
hazel
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Quickie on the way out
Sue the Family search has the Thomas and Joan Weston having children in Steventon so I think we can eliminate that pair for the Charney Bassett parents
Hazel
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Hi Hazel,
No record of a baptism for Mary to link her with Adam and Elizabeth im afraid.
I searched OFHS Letcombe Regis PRs and this is what i found :)
Adam and Elizabeth did only have 2 children
Thomas born Aug 15, bap Aug 20 1758
Ann born Apr 1, bap Apr 7 1760
There is no marriage here for Thomas and Mary so must be Stanford in the Vale ???
There are 12 children for a Thomas and Mary but names spelt Froude, Froud, Frude and Frowd ???
Here is Ann's marriage, note spelling of Richard :o
Apr 16 1781 Richard Skillin, otp, to Ann Frowd (x)
Wits James Howard and Martha Smith
Also found i child for Richard and Ann, Mary Ann Skillin
Here is a burial, only one for name Skillin
May 3 1797 Ann Skillin
Does this all match with what you have Hazel?
Sue
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Hazel....... From OFHS East Challow PRs
Aug 24 1812 Richard Skillin otp to Martha Keep of Wantage
Wits Thomas Franklin, Ann Franklin
Wonder if this could be your Richard ???
It gives no status for anyone eg bach, sp, wid, also there are no children on the cd for them
and no burials. Just a thought ;D Keep giving you thiings to think about dont i :D :D
Sue
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Sue many apologies its been a very busy blustery day now that spelling is interesting and could well be why I've had no success with him Will have more time to give it thought tomorrow
hazel
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Have just found more children for Richard and Ann Skillin, name spelt different again :o
From OFHS Letcombe Regis PRs :)
Born Feb 18 and bap Feb 18 1796 Robert and Charles Skelling, sons of Richard and Ann
And looks like burials for the boys as well
Feb 20 1796 Robert, Charles Skellings ( name with s this time )
Sue
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Blimey Hazel..... Again from Letcombe Regis PRs, something else to think about ;D
Marriage
Mar 14 1798 Richard Skillin, otp to Alice Church of Bright Walton
Wit.... Thos Froud
Could Richard have married 3 times ???
What do you think? The burial in 1797 if this was Richards wife Ann it makes sense also the
witness at the wedding ::)
Sue
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Gosh Sue it does look like three marriage What a shame about the twins, Thank goodness medicine has advanced now,
We are having an awful time with connections it happens evertime it rains It looks Ann's brother Thomas was the witness he was married to Mary BUNCE, Now her parents were John and Mary LAY
John was the son of another John and Jane? Is there a marriage abet 1720 for a John BUNCE and Jane? in the OMI? It may well by Stanford in the Vale.
Also is there a m for Thomas LAY and Susanna? abt 1724 probably in Wantage ?
I think I'll send for the Longworth and Stanford CDs this week then between us we should have most of the area covered
You have taken me on leaps and bounds Many thanks
Hazel
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Oh look at this Sue Maud McMullin Gt Grampy's youngest sister m Charles William KEEP I wonder if he was a relation of Martha who married Richard SKIlliN. I thought the name rang a bell
Hazel
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Not having much luck with these 2 marriages ???
Will keep looking ;D
Hazel that would be really good if you can connect Charles and Martha?
Where was Charles born and what year if i can help?
Sue
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All i have on Charles William is that he married Maud McMulllin in Wantage 21 April 1924 she was b 1899 so i expect he was BA bit before 1899 I'll have a quick look at the 1901 census
hazel
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We have found a note which says Charles William was born 1903 how annoying he missed the census don't know why we haven't got his fathers name
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Hazel i dont know if you have checked this but Free BMD gives Charles b Sep 1902 :)
Had no luck with the Lays or Bunce ???
Marriages on Wantage PRs only go up to 1813 but will see if i can find Charles baptism ;D
Sue
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Sorry Sue I just got distracted by a contact through the web who grew up in our local cottage homes.
Yes I just checked the BMD for Charles' birth it would be great if he was baptised in the Church that would give us his fathers name. I'm not getting very far with Martha (Richard's wife) Is there any sign of a death for her or Richard? fingers crossed that could give us a rough DoB
Hazel
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Sorry had no luck with a baptism for Charles :o
Hope this may be helpful though ;)
From OFHS Wantage PRs
Baptisms
Born 16 May, Bap 6 Jun 1899 Maud Mcmullin, dau James and Harriet, occ painter, living Mill St
And other children of James and Harriet
Born 10 Apr 1881, Bap 15 May 1883, Catherine Lily
Born 23 Mar, Bap 15 May 1883, Rosina Emily
Born 22 Jan, Bap 10 Oct 1885, Henry James
Born 10 May, Bap 31 May 1877, Edward
Born 20 Nov, Bap 20 Dec 1891, Frederick Thomas
Born 24 Jul, Bap 21 Aug 1894, Willie
Born 12 Sep, Bap 3 Nov 1896, Albert Victor
Sue
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You have grampy and his siblings there he was Frederick Thomas and lived to 4 months from his 104th birthdayas bright as a button to the end I can't find james & Harriet's marriage anywhere though. Their first two children were born in kingston on Thames harriet was the daughter of george FROUD and Harriett GRUNDY I get back to Arthur Grundy and Elizabeth? m abt 1705 Arthur died in Sparshot 1729
£Elizabeth died between 1717 and 1719 (birth of last ch and date of his 1st child with a wife named Jane haven't got either marriage
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Wantage Burials only go up to 1935 but found this :)
20 Sep 1934 Harriet Mcmullen age 78 years of 1 Alfred Street.
Im guessing James died after 1935 ::)
I had no luck with Richard or Martha's death, i dont know where they all go to ???
Sue
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Not sure if this is what you need Hazel ???
From OFHS Kingston Lisle Burials
Feb 24 1717 Elizabeth Grundy wife of Arthur of Fawler
Feb 26 1720 Arthur son of Elizabeth and Arthur of Kingston
Sep 30 1722 Jane dau of Arthur and Jane of Kingston
Sep 7 1729 Arthur of Fawler in the parish of Sparsholt
Sue
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Good work Sue had a visitor and had to go
James died in 1847 in Cholsey
Yes thats the family just wish we could find what Elizabeth and Jane's maiden names were young Arthur's birth claimed Elizabeth's life LITTLE Jane was second child of second wife Jane? they had another Jane and a Charles born after his father's death very sad Charles is my husbands direct ancestor but where and when were Arthur and Jane born and married I think with such a small widow between Feb 24 1717 and 30 Aug 1719 I will find the wedding fairly easily with a visit to Reading but that wont happen until next Easter as the campsite is closed for the winter and we use a motorcaravan to visit FH sites
Do you know if Berkshire have a marriage index like Oxford's?
Hazel
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Hi Hazel,
Ok this all i can find on your Grundy family and you pobably have this already ;D
Again from OFHS Kingston Lisle
Baptisms, children of Arthur, day lab and Elizabeth his wife
12 Jan 1706 Charles, 12 Dec 1708 Elizabeth, 18 Feb 1710 Mary, 29 Mar 1713 Mary,
23 Feb 1717 Arthur
Children of Arthur day lab and Jane his wife
Aug 30 1719 Samuel, Jan 21 1721 Jane, Sep 6 1724 Jane
And found this burial 28 Feb 1755 Jane Grundy, wife of Fallow
Only 1 marriage :o
Sep 4 1738 Richard Watts to Elizabeth Grundy
Sue
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Hi Sue hopefully I should be around most of today.
I wonder if you can see if you can find any marriages or deaths of Harriet Froud's siblings it is strange not to know about her generation when we have done so well with the older ones. Here is the list as known all born in Wantage
Harriet was the oldest
Emily b 11 Oct 1856
Ann 1 May 1856
Rosa 20 Dec 1861
Ruth 28 Dec 1863
Frederick William born and died 1866 very sad the only boy totake the name forward
Elizabeth Ann 18 Dec 1867...the only one Grampy ever mentioned again strange
Louisa 5 Mar 1870
Kate 18 May 1872
Any marriages could lead to more living cousins ;D ;D
Many thanks Hazel
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All MESSENGER friends
We have now added all our MESSENGERs to the Web site under "FROUD" Please check and see what we have missed and if we have any glaring mistakes.
Hazel
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Hi Hazel,
Here are the baptisms first as Ann's date dont match ???
From OFHS Wantage PRs
25 Mar 1855 Harriet, born 25 Dec of Tanner Street
28 Dec 1856 Emily, born 11 Oct of Pigeon Lane
23 Jul 1858 Anne, born 1 May of Packhorse Lane
13 Apr 1862 Rosa, born 20 Dec 1861 of Tanner Street
20 Jan 1864 Ruth, born 28 Dec 1863 of Tanner Street
5 Aug 1867 Frederick William George, born 10 Mar 1866 of Tanner Street, private bap
23 Mar 1869 Elizabeth Ann, born 18 Dec 1867 of Tanner Street
22 Aug 1872 Louisa, born 8 Mar 1870 of Tanner Street
22 Aug 1872 Kate, born 18 Mar of Tanner Street
Will see what else i can find ;D
Sue
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Found these burials, not sure about the Harriets ???
Aug 18 1866 Ruth age 2 of Tanner Street
Aug 1 1868 Fredeick age 2 years and 4 Months of Tanner Street
Nov 8 1882 Harriet age 30 of Grove Street
Oct 10 1884 Harriet Louisa age 53 of Newbury Street
Sue
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Interesting our Harriett died 4 Oct 1884 buried 10th Oct 1884 I think the burial said age 53 but she should have been 51 I wonder who this other one was she would have been b I'll check the 1881 census
Hazel
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just re read your post so our Harriet had a second name Louisa
that doesn't appear on he death certificate strange,but thats where the daughter's name came from
Hazel
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Found the other Harriett she was nee WHEELER and m William.
now have you got Childrey? I haven't got Harriet Grundy b 1832's bapt wich is strange as we have the bapt for her siblings
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Hazel..... Sorry but i dont have Childrey PRs ::)
Anything else you need help with ;D
Sue
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Not just at the moment thank you but I'm sure there will be soon
Hazel
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Hi Sue can you give me the date for this Mary Ann SKILLIN please there is quite a long gap between the marriage and the twins were there any others?
Also found i child for Richard and Ann, Mary Ann Skillin
Hazel
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Hi Hazel,
From OFHS Letcombe Regis PRs
Searched baptisms Index and only gave 2 but when i searched baptisms i found 1 more ???
Bap Sep 5, born July 14 1781 Mary Ann Skillin
Bap Sep 5, born Nov 17 1782 John Skillin
Bap Feb 18, born Feb 18 1796 Robert and Charles Skeling
Looks like Ann was pregnant when she married :o
Sue
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Just searching as index may not be stating all names and i found this burial.
I am posting as name spelt different again :)
July 17 1825 Charlotte Skeeling age 72, abode East Challow
Does it mean anything to you ???
Sue
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Many thanks I wonder who Charlotte ws as yet she hasn't made an appearance will check it out
hazel
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Hi all, havent heard much lately on the Messenger/Froud research. Anybody dug up anything new ?
Colin
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Hi Colin not a lot with me anything with any one else? Will pm you
I wonder can any one find a christening for Esther Froud born about 1834 on the 1841 census in West Hanney
Hazel
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Hi all,
Just got notified about the latest message update.
If anybody wants a report showing what information I have on the Messenger / Froud (Chaddleworth) they are welcome just let me know where to send it, believe you can PM me so send your e-mail address that way.
I can produce various reports in PDF format.
Regards
Kevin
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Hello forum,
I am a direct descendant of Robert Messenger of Chaddleworth (died 1839) who was married to Elizabeth Froud in 1783.
Although (with the help of others) I am able to follow the Froud line back to c1675 I can get no further than the death record of Robert.
If anybody can help I would be greatful - my direct line of Messengers thus far is
Robert M - 1839
Thomas M 1792-1864
Joseph M 1821 - 1866
(George) Joseph M born 1852 died??
Francis Henry M 1884-1959
Ernest Douglas M 1919-2001
me
Look forward to hearing from anyone who knows!!
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Hello and welcome to two families Our extended and extending family I relate through the Frouds and to RootsChat i am sure you will find plenty of help here. I expect you have been following the wonderful research work done by the sadly late Mrs Lay she got most of us back so well on the Froud line. Elizabeth FROUD was a cousin 8 times removed and as such I haven't attempted to trace the Messenger further back.
You wont be able to contact Colin or Kevin by PM until you have made three ordinary posts but as soon as you can I am sure if you pm Harold 1066 he will be happy to let you share his information
meanwhile I'll have a little dig and see if anything new turns up :)
Trees
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Hi and many thanks for getting back to me so soon.
I am sure this forum will pay dividends.
Two things I have in mind and the first is to visit the Berkshire records office as I only live about 30 miles away and secondly to visit the Ibex in Chaddleworth (maybe for a Sunday lunch) as it is interesting to know it was once owned by my ggggrandfather.
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Wish we could join you but we haven't been away this year at all as we have a sick 88 year old to help.
Hope you can get over the ROs are friendly and have helpful staff I would love to get to Reading there must be a wealth of untapped Froud information there
Hey ho one day
H.
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Hi DDM,
Welcome to the family - from the information you have given it would appear that you are my wife's 3rd Cousin 1x Removed.
The link being Thomas & Caroline (Nee Fisher) Messenger these being my wife's 2x Great Grand parents and your 3x Great Grand parents.
The link below is to my on-line Photo store with some photos taken in 2005 of the IBEX
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/Kevin.Poile/HighclereVisit#
Like you I have not got any further back on the Messenger line then the Robert who married Elizabeth FROUDE.
If you contact me via PM I will gladly share what information I have. The Window in Chaddleworth Church is dedicated to another one of the Messenger lines for which I have the information.
Kevin
PS let us know if you are planning a visit to the IBEX and we could maybe meet up.
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I've just had a read through the thread and have added some info on Familysearch - I have an interest in the Messenger surname, being a Stokenchurch Messenger (many times over ;D) If any of you are still interested I have found a potential baptism record and father for Robert Messenger which I've added on Familysearch as a starting point. Baptism 12th April 1752 in Fyfield/Overton, Wiltshire with a father listed as Thomas Messenger. How does that sound?