RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Tease on Tuesday 09 January 07 10:29 GMT (UK)
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Hello!
Ok, i'm sure someone will be able to help with this.
I am relatively new to FH and have been doing my research up till now on the internet.
I was planning on going to the Family Records Centre to try to find details on BMD's that I cannot find online. I have also been lead to believe that a trip there can save you having to order certificates, as you can view the information while you are there.
I have just checked their website, and it says that they cannot be viewed there, and that you have to order them as you would normally.
So, after all that rambling, my question is, What can I do at the FRC there that I cannot do online? Is there anywhere that I can view the information contained on Birth/Marriage/Death certificates without having to buy them and wait for them to arrive?
Any help would be gratefully received!
Best Wishes,
Louise
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You cannot see the original registers anywhere, it is not allowed, you have to buy the certificates.
Stan
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Thankyou Stan,
Is there any way of finding out the information that the certificate would show, like the parents of the bride & groom?
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I had been searching for sometime in my local Archives office and then found out that a page had not been copied, it went from 411 to 414, 412 and 413 missing. My marriage that I needed was on page 413, I explained this to the lady and she very kindly got me the registrars book and let me read it, then she very kindly photocopied it for me, at last another brickwall smashed ;D
Jane
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No, you have to buy the certificates to get the details. Members of the public are not allowed to look at the original registers. The only other way you could get that information is to find the Parish Register of the church in whch they were married, which may be held at the local Record Office.
Stan
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Fantastic, so if I go to my local records office, would they have the registers there, or do I need to order them in?
Sorry, i'm feeling more naive my the minute!
Thankyou for your patience!
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As far as I am aware you would have to go to the Register Office to see the registers, if it was allowed, as they are not normally kept in the local Archives Office. If you want to order copies of the certificates you apply to the Superintendent Registrar of the district concerned, either by post or in person. I doubt very much if the Superintendent Registrar would let the registers leave his office, as legally they have to be kept there.
Stan
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Hello Tease
You will find that the Register Offices in different areas can be moe or less helpful.
Which area or areas are you interested in specifically? What time periods are you looking at?
If you give us some details we may be able to suggest the best way of proceeding - but please do not name any living people.
Barbara
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I should have added that you can also get copies at the Family Records Centre;
Please note: it is not possible to view full details of birth, marriage or death entries at the FRC. This information can only be obtained by purchasing a certified copy of the entry which can then be collected from the FRC after four working days. Alternatively, certificates can be posted to you, also after four working days.http://www.familyrecords.gov.uk/frc/research/researchmain.htm
Stan
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Hi Louise,
If the dates you are searching are say about 100 years old or more, then the parish registers which are kept by the county record offices (NOT the local register office) are the only way to find the information you seek without buying a certificate.
The system work thus:
From 1 July 1 837 all births and deaths had to be reported to a local registrar, who in turn reported them to the superintendent registrar of the registration district. The superintendent registrar retained his own records but copied them, every three months, to the Registrar General at the GRO. Marriages also had to be registered. A marriage certificate (retained by the married couple) and two registers are completed at Church of England weddings. One register of the marriage entries is kept by the church. When the other register has been filled with entries (sometimes many years after some of the weddings took place) it is sent by the officiating minister to the superintendent registrar of the registration district in which the church is situated. However, every three months the minister must also prepare a further copy, from his register, of any entries of marriages taking place during that last quarter and send that copy directly to the Registrar General.
From Ancestral Trails by Mark Herber
And he also confirms:
The original registers that record births, marriages and deaths cannot be inspected by the public.
Hope you find what you are looking for.
Nell
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Thankyou all so much for your help.
The main mystery that I am trying to solve is to get further back than my GGG Grandparents.
Here is what I have;
John Austin b 1810 approx Maidenhead d?
Married Sarah ? b 1803 Russells Water, Oxfordshire approx d 1881 approx
They lived and brought up their 11 children in Ruscombe, Berkshire, which is where they all appeared to have stayed.
I cannot find marriage/death details or any info on their parents or sarahs last name.
Any help would be soooo gratefully received!
Many Thanks,
Louise
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Hi Louise,
Could this be John?
From IGI (extracted record):
John Austin b 15 Sep 1807; bpt 10 Oct 1807, parents James Austin and Sophia Hill, at Bray, Berkshire. Not too far from Maidenhead.
Nanny Jan
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As their eldest son was born in c1834, their marriage pre-dated civil registration in 1837, so the only record will be in a parish register.
Stan
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You could try contacting the Berkshire Marriage Index which contains Marriages from 1538 to 1837 athttp://www.berksfhs.org.uk/berkshire/BerkshireMarriageIndex.htm
Stan
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Hi Louise,
Do you have details of any children born after civil registration in 1837? Their birth certs will show Sarah's maiden name.
Nanny Jan
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There were three children in the 1851 Census born after civil registration, so it will be easy to get a birth certificate.
Amelia Austin 11
Ann Austin 9
John Austin 41
John Austin 3
Robert Austin 17
Sarah Austin 47
Thomas Austin 11
Stan
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Hello Louise
Do you have the census details for your family? If not I can post them for you.
John gives different places of birth on the censuses eg Maidenhead, Raisbury (presumably Wraysbury) Staines. It looks like Sarah died before 1881 and this could be the death reg (from Free BMD)
Deaths Dec 1873
Austin Sarah 76 Henley
Barbara
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Hi Louise,
Maidenhead did not exist as a separate parish until the 19th century. North of the Bath Road was the parish of Cookham, south of the Bath Road was the parish of Bray, so you may have to bear this in mind when searching.
Nell
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Sorry it has taken me to long to get back to you.
I just wanted to say thankyou all for your help.
I think that the Baptism of John with James as his father, is probably correct, thankyou.
I have only just started back on this part of the tree, and you have all been so much help.
I will order one of the childrens birth certificates as suggested, so I can add a maiden name to Sarah.
I think a trip out from behind my screen may be due!!
Many Thanks again, you have been wonderful!
Best Wishes to you all,
Louise
x
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Ref James Austin / Sophia Hill
I'll be a little surprised (but v interested) if your John Austin turns out to be
the son of James Austin / Sophia Hill, b. 1807, chr. 1807 Bray.
That's because I have further info on children of JA & SH, including
Susanna Sophia, who is probably the Sophia Austin chr Bray 1809; but also four
further children christened in St James Piccadilly, 1813 to 1819, when
James is decribed variously as a gentleman, club house keeper and vintner,
living in St James Street. [These are given in the parish register as children of
James & Sophia Austin, but I have separate info from a later memorial that the
mother's maiden name was Hill.]
Of course, it's possible that there were two couples called James Austin / Sophia Hill, and that my Susanna Sophia isn't the one chr in Bray in 1809.
If you can look up the Bray parish register, you might find more details,
such as John's father's occupation in 1807/09, or the marriage record of
JA & SH. Or of course the marriage record of your John Austin - it's likely
to include family members as witnesses if not other hepful info.
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Martha Austin
Born 8 February 1817, St. James Street, Piccadilly, Westminster, London. Baptized 9 March 1817, St. James, Piccadilly, Westminster, London. Married George Lee 2 October 1841, Kandy, Ceylon. Daughter of James Austin, Vintner, and Sophia.
Americanized version of her baptism on Ancestry as 9/3/1817 but 9 March 1817 is from microfilm of original.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones .... I know I should be in Middlesex not London in 1817 but I just can not get around to that.
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Hi barryd
According to her profile Louise hasn't been online here since June 2008.
Fingers crossed her email address hasn't changed, she gets a notification that you have posted and that she comes back soon.
Dawn
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Dear barryd and dawnsh
I'm not sure why barryd posted the info on the birth of Martha Austin here. This (rather old) topic was about a John Austin who's almost certainly from a different family.
If anyone's interested I have a lot of info on Martha's family: parents James Austin and Sophia Hill had 10 children in all, 6 of whom went out to Ceylon or southern India; I have Sophia's parents but still not James's. .. A slightly out-of-date summary of what I have is at www.mollison.org/tree/fam/austin.html (must update this!).
Martha and George Lee had 9 children, including Lionel Frederick (1845-1899) and Henry Austin (1847-1918) who had quite distinguished careers in Ceylon Civil Service and Foreign Office respectively.
.. but I'd suggest if anyone else is interested in this family we should start a new topic.
Best wishes, Denis
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Dear barryd and dawnsh
If anyone's interested I have a lot of info on Martha's family: parents James Austin and Sophia Hill had 10 children in all, 6 of whom went out to Ceylon or southern India; I have Sophia's parents but still not James's. .. A slightly out-of-date summary of what I have is at www.mollison.org/tree/fam/austin.html (must update this!).
M
Best wishes, Denis
The original discussion was a little while back, but is there any record of why 3 of the Austin girls went to India and 3 others to Ceylon[ Sri Lanka ]. One of the latter , Mary Anne, is my 2nd great grandmother. My interest has been renewed as one of my daughters is now in Sri Lanka. Bruce
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Marriage to a man already out there because of an army career or trade connections
Employment as a nurse or governess
Maybe an older lady's companion
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Yes, all possible. What they did in India and Ceylon is documented .Certainly one married in England then accompanied her spouse to India, but another married in India, & at least 2 married in Ceylon and then later retired to the Channel Islands &/or Canada...Th eparents appear to have remained i n England
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Dear Bruce
As to why the 5 Austin daughters and 1 brother went to Madras/ Ceylon (now Chennai/Sri Lanka), I think most can be explained in terms of who went first ..
Ceylon: probably Mary Ann (1806-75) went first, marrying William Morris - do you have details of their marriage? I have a note to look in Blackwoods Magazine of 1829.
Martha (1817-1870s) and William (1811-48) presumably were influenced by their being there: Martha possibly husband-seeking - she met George Lee on the boat out, marrying him later that year (1841) in Kandy; and William to seek his fortune as a coffee-planter.
The question we still haven't answered is whether Mary Ann meeting William Morris was because of a relationship to Dr William Austin (1790-1871), who married William M's sister.
Still have no info on where the father James Austin came from.
Madras: Susanna Sophia (1804-53) went out to Madras in late 1833 with her surgeon husband William Liddell to become Assistant Coroner there, on the Wellington, a (very interesting) ship captained by his brother James Liddell. They took her sister Sophia (1808-67) who later (1842) married Rev John Garrett - I have a memoir of their family by their daughter Mary Sophia Rice.
Finally, Eliza (1819-70s) went out presumably to stay with the Liddells until she married the banker John Innes Geddes there in 1849.
The theme common to probably Sophia, Martha and Eliza, of going to India/Ceylon to seek a husband, is a well-known phenomenon. I guess it appealed to a certain section of society, reasonably well off daughters of large families ??
So the main question remains - were James and William Austin related?
By the way, I do have more info on James's wife, Sophia Hill, and her family, which helps explain how James ended up catering for the Guards:
From the Gentleman's Magazine, for 1820:
6 November: "In Park-street, Windsor, Adam Hill, many years Mess-master to the Officers of the Brigade of Guards."
Adam's will confirms the relationship.
Best wishes
Denis
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Dear Denis,
Thank you for your input. Your explanation certainly fits. Nor can I identify James parents. I have Sophia Hill's baptism in 1779 St Marylebone, but not her marriage which I expect would have been 1802-1803 given Susanna was born September 1804.
William Morris married Mary Ann 9 July 1834 in Colombo according to his military record. This is also noted in Find my Past. Unfortunately I cannot identify in which church that they were married . They do not appear in the Kabristan Archives [ that I can see].
I cannot link James Austin and Dr William. However Dr William is linked to to Morris family with his marriage to William [1808-1883] sister Sidney Sophia Morris in Newfoundland 1806
Regards
Bruce
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I have the marriage of James Austin and Sophia Hill noted as 1803 St Martin in the Fields, but have mislaid the exact date. If I find it I'll post it here.
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Thank you Denis. That would be appreciated. I have been through the Marriage Banns on Family Search but could not find the marriage. Perhaps it was by licence
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Banns 2nd 9th & 16th October. At St Martins But at the moment cannot see the actual marriage,
However, on the 6th of October a couple of the same name were married by licence at Eastbourne. Are they likely to be one and the same? Or just a coincidence?
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Banns for a JA and SH were read at St Martins in the fields on 2, 9 and 16 Oct 1803. They could have started the process of Banns, then decided they wanted to marry more quickly and got a licence to marry in Eastbourne on 6th October. Or could be a complete co-incidence.
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Eastbourne was a military post of some importance during the Napoleonic wars. Given James occupation of sutler, it is quite possible that he followed his regiment there. The marriage date is between the dates of his banns published at St Martins. Would the banns have been publishes automatically even if the couple had decamped ?
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If they forgot to tell the vicar, then I expect he would carry on reading the banns as originally scheduled.
Ancestors of mine had banns read in Norfolk (all three) but did not marry there. Then almost immediately had the set of three read in Essex. I had wondered if one was from Norfolk and one from Essex and the banns reading was out of sync in their home parishes. But in both sets they were both of the parish. He was in the army and although I haven't got his service record the regiment did move between the two places at around the right time. They did marry in Essex after the 3rd reading of second set. I wouldn't be surprised if they had already left Norfolk by the time the readings of the 1st set were finished.
This was very late 18th century, not much earlier than your couple
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Thank you, LizzieL. Given the limited means of communication at that time, it is indeed likely that the vicar was not advised
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Has anyone found/looked at the marriage licence? Many of these are on ancestry.com - to which I don't currently have a subscription. These usually contain some extra info of interest.
And do the Banns contain any extra info? - likely not?
It's James for whom some extra info would be useful.
And it's not certain James was connected to the army before his marriage.
His father-in-law Adam Hill was "many years Mess-master to the Officers of the Brigade of Guards", so it may have been through him that James got the job of sutler to the 1st regiment of foot (later Grenadier Guards).
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Hi LizzieL, I cant find that Eastbourne marriage in 1803 on Family Search or FindMyPast. I can see it in Ancestry, but as I too am not currently subscribed could you share any additional details please?