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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Spitfire on Saturday 06 January 07 00:45 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone have a copy of the 'Apprenticeship Bindings Index 1692 - 1908' by the Parish Chest and if so would you kindly do a look up for me?
I am looking for reference to William Howlett b. 1856.
Many thanks,
Emma
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Hi
I have a copy of the CD but cannot find a William Howlett that could have been born in 1856. The ones listed are either bound 1863 or after 1887.
Can you give any further details fathers name, year bound as apprentice, parish etc. and I will have another try.
Sue
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Hi Sue
What period does your CD cover. I'm looking for details of Benjamin Gilliard b some time between 1784 - 1793, Prittlewell, Essex. The 1841 and 1851 census shows him in Maidstone, occupation waterman.
Regards Genna
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Hi Genna
The copy of the CD I have is from 1692 - 1949 for the River Thames.
Going of what you have told me, Benjamin living in Maidstone he may have worked on the Medway.
I had a look anyway and found a few.
Name Binding Location Master Freedom
GILLARD JOHN 13/11/1845 WAPPING CHARLES THOMAS FARRIER 00/00/0000
GILLARD THOMAS 22/07/1698 GRINWICH THOMAS PERRINTON 00/00/0000
Hope this helps.
Sue
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Sue
I just 'fell upon' this thread and wondered if you would mind looking on your CD for me - hope you don't mind me asking but if I can find evidence of my gr.grandfather it might lead me to finding his son!
According to my grandfather's marriage certificate (he was born c.1883) his father WILLIAM WELCH was a Lighterman and according to the family my grandfather came from SE London (Camberwell) area so IF his father was a lighterman it would have been on the Thames.
Apologies for butting in on the thread.
Regards
Sandie
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Hi Sue
Thanks for doing the lookup. I agree with you that he probably worked on the Medway but I haven't found a database for watermen/lightermen working on the Medway, not even at Cityark so I thought it was worth a shot.
Regards Genn
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Sandie
I have had a look for you, there are alot of Welch's but no William. If you have any other names I can go on. I could let you know if they appear.
Genna
Have you tried parishregister.com they sell cds of Medway.
Sue
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Sue
Thank you very much for looking, unfortunately I haven't any other names as I haven't been able to locate my grandfather & his family yet.
Looks like my grandfather may have 'promoted' his dad when he spoke to the vicar!! Thanks again for looking.
Regards
Sandie
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Hi Sandie
Pleasure to help.
Sue
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You are being very kind with these look-ups.
I have MAXWELLs and LATTIMERs that were lightermen. I am very confused about them from looking on censuses because so many of them had similar names. I would love to know which of them appear on this list, and any details. They lived in Rotherhithe/Horseleydowns area, Bermondsey.
In particular,
William (Thomas?) MAXWELL b. abt 1808
Thomas Henry MAXWELL b. abt 1850
Thomas MAXWELL (d.1849, don't know birth)
John LATTIMER b. abt 1791
John LATTIMER b. abt 1815
John Josiah LATTIMER b. abt 1841
George LATTIMER b.abt 1847
I know there are lots more of them, and I would like to have a complete list, but have no idea if that is difficult for you or not as I've never seen this document, so will leave it to you.
I am also interested in knowing of occasions when one of them was the master, and who he took on as apprentices.
I have quite a job ahead of me to sort out the who's who! Anything you can provide would be appreciated.
Ta.
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Hi Loo
From your info the following look like the closest matches.
MAXWELL WILLIAM THOMAS JNR. 18/10/1821 ROTHERHITHE WILLIAM THOMAS MAXWELL 13/11/1828
MAXWELL THOMAS HENRY 10/05/1864 BERMONDSEY WM.THOS.MAXWELL 2ND. 11/07/1871
LATTIMER (SIC) JOHN 20/06/1805 HORSLYDOWN ** JOHN TERRY 13/05/1813
LATTIMER JOHN JNR. 14/01/1830 BERMONDSEY JOHN LATTIMER SNR. 09/02/1837
LATTIMER JOHN JOSIAS 12/10/1854 BERMONDSEY JOHN LATTIMER JNR. 12/11/1861
LATTIMER GEORGE 11/12/1860 BERMONDSEY JOHN LATTIMER 10/03/1868
It is harder to try and pin down masters unless you know the names that could have been apprentices to them, especially as there were so many Maxwell and Lattimer names on the full list.
I will PM you with a latger list for you to try and sort out.
Sue
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Hello Suzey68,
May I be cheeky and ask you to do a look up for me too please.
My 3x great grandfather was a waterman from Chelsea.
So was his uncle Timothy and James.
Would you please look for any William, Timothy, James and Frederick Carters from Chelsea, Battersea & Hammersmith.Or any Carters from those areas.
Thank you :)
Pettsy :)
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Hi Sue, please are there any for Staffordshire (Cauldon Canal), please if there are any could lookup a William Brindley of Norton, Staffordshire born 1798, possibly started working on the canals 1810's/1820's or after.
Thanks
Anna
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Thank you very much, Suzey. It's nice, for once, to see that there is actual documentation of the trades that the ancestors are said to have plied! I shall work my way through it all, slowly...!
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Thank-you for your kind offer. I would be interested in the details of William Howlett , 1863. It is difficult to pinpoint a location as William has travelled from Bucks (where he was born) to Peterborough and then Dover and onto London.
His locations each time only taken from the information given on birth/death certs and the census.
I find it unlikely that this is my William as he was born in 1831 and perhaps would have been to old? I would however still appreciate the details you have.
Many thanks,
Emma
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Hi Pettsy
There are alot of Carters' but I thing these are the ones you are looking for plus a few more.
CARTER TIMOTHY 08/02/1849 FULHAM JOHN KELLEY 11/03/1858
CARTER WILLIAM 14/09/1854 BATTERSEA JOHN KELLEY 08/10/1861
CARTER JAMES JNR. 08/09/1831 CHELSEA JAMES CARTER SNR. 14/09/1848
CARTER FREDERICK THOMAS 13/02/1877 HAMMERSMITH TIMOTHY CARTER 00/00/0000
CARTER JAMES 06/08/1789 CHELSEA GEORGE CARTER 22/07/1802
CARTER WILLIAM 20/11/1735 CHELSEA JOHN NEALE 00/00/0000
Sue
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Hi Anna
Sorry I am unable to help with this one.
The resource CD I have is for the Company of Watermen and Lightermen which was one of the City of London Guilds and covers the London area of the river Thames from 1692 to 1949.
Sue
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Hi Emma
Here are all the William Howletts after 1863
HOWLETT WILLIAM 11/08/1863 DEPTFORD ROBERT HOWLETT DROWNED
HOWLETT WILLIAM CHARLES 1901 MAY 14 DEPTFORD JAMES HOWLETT ---- --- --
HOWLETT WILLIAM HENRY 1887 SEP 13 GREENWICH ROBERT HOWLETT 1892 DEC 13
HOWLETT WILLIAM JOHN ALBERT 1897 SEP 14 DEPTFORD HENRY HOWLETT 1905 MAY 9
Sue
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Thank you Sue,
Are there any Carters which go back further late 1600 early 1700's?
Thank you for your help. ;D
Pettsy
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Hi Pettsy
There are lots of Carters (about 30) for the 1692 - 1716 period but none in the Chelsea, Fulham, Battersea areas.
Do you know if they came from another area?
Sue
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Hi Sue, Thanks very much for coming back to me anyway.
Anna
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Hi Sue,
Could I also be cheeky ;D. I'm trying to find information about a George Hooker (my Great Grandmothers Uncle who she lived with in 1881)
They lived at 18 Aylesford Street, St Georges Hanover Square, Westminster.
George Hooker born about 1846 Basingstoke, occupation at that time (1881) was down as Boatman and later someone added Lighterman. I assume he worked somewhere on the Thames.
I came to a brickwall looking for information about whether he served an apprenticeship or not as the web site for the guild said the records were destroyed at some time.
It would be great to get a better idea of him.
Hope you can help, but if you don't have time no problem.
Pipkim :)
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Sue
When you have time, could you see if there are any Huntingfords on your magic CD?
Thanks
meles
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Hi Sue,
I am not sure, they came from the West London areas.
Hammersmith, Chiswick too.
Thank you
Pettsy
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Hi Pipkim
I Can't find a George, the nearest I have is a John George bound in 1871 in Horsleydown to a George Sholt but unfortunately he did not finish his apprenticeship as he drowned. I'm guessing that this is not the correct one.
Sue
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Hi Meles
Lots of Huntingfords in the Greenwich, Rotherhithe, Woolwich areas. Any chance you can narrow down the area, years, or names.
Sue
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OOOOH! :o
I've just started to research this tree and if there are that many, it looks as if I might need to get my hands on this source! Where can I get it?
In the meantime, anything on a Benjamin Huntingford b 1850 would be useful. Rotherhithe area.
Many thanks for your quick reply.
meles
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Thanks Sue for taking time to look.
Maybe George Hooker didn't serve his apprenticeship. He later became a billiard cue maker - his ancestors and family were wheelwrights and coachbuilders.
Many thanks again.
Pipkim :)
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Hi Pipkim
One thing I do know is that in the past you could only become an apprentice Waterman / Lighterman to either your Father, Uncle or Brother is assume in-laws also count i.e brother in-law. As an apprentice you were taken on at 14 and served a 7 year apprenticeship and could only be married when you completed it and became a freeman.
As George later had a different trade and his ancestors also were not in the guild I am guessing that he did not serve as an apprenticeship within the auspices of the Company of Watermen and Lightermen.
If he had started his apprenticeship and left before completion he should be found on the bindings index.
If you come up with any further information you need me to check please let me know.
Sue
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Hi Meles
I can see 15 different apprentice bindings for the Huntingford name and quite a few others where an Huntingford is the master.
I have found a Benjamin John Huntingford who was bound into apprenticeship to John William Hovey Junior on 12th September 1865 at Rotherhithe. He was made a freeman on 11th August 1874.
I would think that this is the correct Benjamin (although there appears to be others) as this one would have been 14 / 15 if he was born in 1850.
Does the masters name mean anything to you?
As far as I can see This Benjamin never became a master although I have a Benjamin Thomas Huntingford as a master on other bindings around the same time so this may be a relative.
The CD is called The Company of Waterman and Lightermen of the River Thames Bindings Index 1692 - 1949 and is produced by Trueflare Ltd. This is one of a series of CDs containing the records of the company.
It can be bought online from www.parishregister.com
I can highly recommend this resource for anyone researching watermen and lightermen ancestors.
The original bindings can be viewed at the Guildhall Library in London.
Sue
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Hi Sue
The Master's name means nothing to me (I've not been doing this tree for very long), but Benjamin Thomas could well be Benjamin John's father (I have census records for a Benjamin T (don't have his full name), born 1825).
Many thanks for your help. Looks like the CD might be very helpful!
meles
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Hi Pipkim
One thing I do know is that in the past you could only become an apprentice Waterman / Lighterman to either your Father, Uncle or Brother is assume in-laws also count i.e brother in-law. As an apprentice you were taken on at 14 and served a 7 year apprenticeship and could only be married when you completed it and became a freeman.
As George later had a different trade and his ancestors also were not in the guild I am guessing that he did not serve as an apprenticeship within the auspices of the Company of Watermen and Lightermen.
If he had started his apprenticeship and left before completion he should be found on the bindings index.
If you come up with any further information you need me to check please let me know.
Sue
Thank you for the other information. I have a feeling that when I last tried to trace his wife, his father-in-law was a musician. I suppose with all occupations, some people get in through the backdoor or he felt it sounded good at the time.
I'll keep looking for further info.
Pipkim :)
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Hi Sue
Just stumbled across this thread - would you mind having a look for this gentleman please?
Frederick GROOMBRIDGE born Richmond, Surrey c 1790 listed in Richmond as a Waterman in 1841 and Late Waterman in 1851
Thank you so much for your kind offer
Jan ;)
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Hi Pipkim
I have just gone through some other Company information and it appears that from 1865 people too old for an apprenticeship could be granted a two year licence. I am not sure of the implications of this but am willing to bet that somewhere amongst the papers of the guild that there are records relation to licence holders.
It may be worth looking at www.parishregister.com and Trueflare Limited for further information or ideas.
Sue
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Hi Jan
I can certainly find Frederick Groombridge amongst the apprentice bindings.
Frederick was bound on 25th April 1805 to a George Cripps in Richmond. The completed his apprenticeship and was made a freeman on the 18th March 1813.
I have looked at later years but cannot find any instances where Frederick became a master in an apprentice binding.
I have however found one other Groombridge (Thomas Jameson Groombridge) in Deptford in 1787 which may be of interest to your research.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Thanks again for the tip, I shall take a look at both places.
Pipkim ;)
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Thank you so much for the information - wonder who George Cripps is? From what you say he must have been somehow related. Interestingly Frederick married Nov 4th 1811 in St Lukes Middlesex - a church which neither party had any connection with, Maybe because he shouldn't have been marrying at all :o :D
Jan ;)
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Hi Sue,
Many thanks for the invaluable information. It appears I may have started a rather long thread for you.......................... ;D
Thanks once again,
Emma
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I notice that there is a lecture at SOG on the topic "Researching Thames Watermen & Lightermen" on Feb.14 by Robert Cottrell:
http://www.sog.org.uk/acatalog/SoG_OrderLine_Online_February_2007_29.html
If anyone is able to go to it, I would love to hear what they learned. Far too far for me.
thanks.
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Hi Sue,
I'm going to join in the impudence and ask if you could, please, see if there is anything listed for my great grandfather, William (Thomas) Jones whose occupation is given on my grandfather's birth certificate (1902) as lighterman/journeyman, which I think means he was a licensed lighterman but couldn't afford his own barge.
I don't have any definite birth date / place although I'm currently playing a bit of a hunch and guessing he may be connected to one Thomas Hiram Jones, born around 1837 in the Aldgate area, whose occupation is given in various censuses as waterman and/or lighterman, so anything on him also would be of interest.
He had a son named William b 1868 in the Aldgate area. I can't prove the link but my grandfather was also Thomas Hiram Jones, and while Thomas and William are very common, Hiram is a bit more unusual. Thomas H snr had other sons (Thomas b 1860, George b1862, Chrles b 1870, Robert b1876, John b 1879) but I've found no evidence so far that any of them followed him as lightermen.
If you can throw any light on this I'd be very grateful - I've looked on the Parish Records website but I've been reluctant to purchase the CD in case it was an example of someone "talking up" their occupation on the birth certificate.
Thankyou
Sue
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Hi Sue
Welcome aboard, sorry about the pun.
As you can imagine there are a lot of Jones on the apprentice records (1098 to be precise). In order to try and narrow it down I have conducted a search under the name Hiram Jones and have come up with the following:-
John Hiram Jones bound 24/11/1791 in Aldgate to Henry Baker, gained freedom on 14/10/1802
John Henry Jones bound 14/10/1824 in St.George in the East to John Hiram Jones, gained freedom on 08/03/1832
Thomas Hiram Jones bound 09/09/1852 in Aldgate to Edward Walter Jones, gained freedom on 08/12/1859
William James Jones bound 08/01/1829 in St George in the East to Jno.Hiram Jones, gained freedom on 12/02/1857
Charles Dewer bound 11/12/1866 in Aldgate to Thomas Hiram Jones, did not complete apprenticeship with this master
George James Jones bound 11/07/1876 in Minories to Thomas Hiram Jones, did not complete apprenticeship with this master
Thomas Robert Jones bound 11/03/1879 in Aldgate to Thomas Hiram Jones, gained freedom on 10/11/1885
Having exhausted the name Hiram, I then looked at the names we have now uncovered:
Edward Walter Jones bound 08/07/1841 in Whitechapel to Thomas Jones, gained freedom on 13/03/1851. This looks good as he would then be able to have an apprentice in 1852 as above. Earlier Edward Jones' do not fit the time frame or location.
As far as William Thomas Jones is concerned can you trace him through the census 1901 / 1891 to find out his father's name. Maybe you can PM me with the details from your Grandfather's birth certificate (mother / location etc) and I will have a quick look for you.
If they did not complete their apprenticeship with the master it could be that their apprenticeship was transferred to another master to complete and this is on a separate set of records that I currently do not have.
I hope you can get something of interest from the above, please let me know if you need any further lookups.
Sue
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Was Hiram a common name among Thames watermen?
I am researching a waterman ancestor born at about the same time (1798) who had the middle name Hiram.
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Hi
Yes I came across a few others in my search for the Jones family.
Howard, Slade, Lamming, Gibbs, Page, Gaithouse and Macy should cover all the ones on the apprentice bindings.
Sue
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Mine were VAUS. Hiram was sometimes written as Hyram or even Syren/Syrem.
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Hi
Thanks for the tip about Hiram also spelt Hyram. I have rechecked the Jones' family just in case but theirs are always spelt as Hiram.
Whilst I'm currently looking through the CD I thought you may be interested in the Vaus names that appear (assuming that you do not have a copy already)
William Vaus bound 1886 SEP 14 in Walthamstow to Augustus Siram Vaus did not complete
Augustus Siren Vaus bound 09/02/1869 in Bethnal Green to Benjamin Thomas Vaus gained freedom 12/10/1875
Henry Vaus bound 14/08/1877 Bethnal Green to Benj. Thomas Vaus, did not complete
Benjamin Thomas Vaus bound 10/12/1835 in Barking to James Wallace Fogo gained freedom 13/06/1844
William Edmonton Pitt bound 24/01/1788 in Bermondsey to Benjaman Vaus gained freedom on 29/04/1802
Augustus Hyram Vaus bound 08/07/1813 in St Catherines to Benjamin Vaus gained freedom on 19/10/1820
Edmund Vaus bound 31/08/1815 in Tower to Edmund Clodd gained freedom on 21/08/1823
Nathaniel Vaus bound 08/02/1821 in East Smithfield to Benjamin Thomas Vaus, gained freedom on 10/07/1828
Barnard Williams bound 10/04/1794 in Custom House to Benjamin Vaus gained freedom on 06/01/1803
Sue
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Sue,
thank you so much for this. It has helped to fill in the picture a bit for Thomas Hiram. The Dewar bit is useful too - it answers a question about his wife, whose name is "Devoir" on the marriage index, but has no other records under that name.
Approaching the problem from the other direction, all I have on my grandfather's birth certificate (Oct 1902) are that his parents are William Jones, lighterman/journeyman and Catherine Eliza Jones, late Slack, formerly Williams, laundress.
The address is in Queen's Head Alley but they are not at the address on the 1901 census and I haven't yet managed to find a marriage record for them either.
At least now I know that if William was related to Thomas Hiram snr and was a licensed lighterman he didn't do his apprenticeship with his father. George James and Thomas Robert who were bound to Thomas Hiram may have been Williams' older brothers. Do you know if either of them took on any apprentices at all?
Many thanks,
Sue
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Hi Sue :)
I wonder if I might be cheeky and ask you to take a look in your CD for one of hubby's rellies, Jethro DOBSON? He was allegedly a waterman who worked at some time for Eton school. He lived all his life at Eton, was born 1826 and died 1893.
Thank you so much :D
Prue
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Hi Prue
Can't find a Jethro Dobson on the apprentice bindings.
Most of the Dobsons on the indexes are Chelsea, Wandsworth, Westminster and Greenwich. The farthest west I can find is Kew in 1745.
Sue
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Thank you Sue for looking :) It was definitely an off-chance anyway ;)
Cheers
Prue
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Hi Sue
I have had a look through the bindings again and can't find any instances of George James or Thomas Robert having apprentices.
Cheers
Sue
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Hello Sue, I'm jumping on the bandwagon here. Please may I have a look up too.
These are my OH's rellies all from the Blackwall, Poplar area
George Charles Lowther Carvallo born 1850 and his two sons George James born 1875 and James Reuban born 1879, Lowther Carvallo all in various census were described as either Watermen or Lightermen.
(surnames in no particular order by the way, they used either one or both at various times ???)
I beleive they may have connections to an Edward or Joseph Redknap.
Suey
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Sue,
Many thanks for the VAUS entries. I do have these already having visited the Guildhall Library many years ago.
It's great to be able to find out more about our ancestors lives.
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Hi Suey
Nothing around these dates for the "Lowther" name and nothing at all for the "Carvallo" name.
I have had a quick look around both names for a mis-transcribed spelling and surprisingly enough found the following:-
George Carvalho bound 13/11/1866 in Poplar to Joseph Reuben Redknapp, completed 09/01/1872
His sons we cannot find as either spelling.
There are some earlier Lowther names and quite a few Redknap names and I will PM you with more details.
Sue
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Suzey,
I wonder if you could do a look-up for me as you have done for others. There are two surnnames of interest to me.
A John Frederick Vallance...he lived in Southwark in late 1800s
A Daniel McLeman Stephen...living in Walthamstow possibly from1911 onwards. He worked as a docker but may have worked as a waterman/lighterman.
If you can help I would be most grateful.
Thanks
Alex
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Hi Alex
I can't find the two you are looking for, there are a couple of Stephens in the early 1900's with the s but Stephen is a different matter.
Do you have more specific dates for John Frederick Vallance?
The following are the Vallance names I have found:-
James VALENCE bound 09/12/1768 in Southwark to James WILLIAMS completed 11/12/1777
George DALRYMPLE bound 21/06/1804 in Rotherhithe to James VALLANCE completed 16/02/1815
William Henry DAVIS bound 12/11/1801 in Lambeth to William VALLANCE 01/12/1808
William GRASHAM bound 08/08/1850 in Rotherhithe William George VALLANCE completed 13/08/1857
William VALLANCE bound 27/04/1826 in Bermondsey to Edward TEAGUE completed 12/09/1833
William George VALLANCE bound 08/05/1834 in Rotherhithe to Barnard VINCE completed 13/10/1842
William WEATHERIDGE bound 14/06/1855 in ROTHERHITHE WILLIAM GEORGE VALLANCE not completed
William James BRETT bound 14/09/1869 in Rotherhithe to William Geo. VALLANCE not completed
Henry Thomas GOBBETT bound 09/05/1865 in Rotherhithe to William George VALLANCE completed 17/05/1870
James Leonard VALLENCE Bound 10/11/1925, Born 16/11/1907 Poplar
Sue
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According to the 1901 census, he was aged 28, and living in Southwark. His occupation was a waterside labourer, as I have just re-read, so he may not appear on any list you may have.
Thanks anyway,
Alex