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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Montgomeryshire => Wales => Montgomeryshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Jack D on Wednesday 20 December 06 23:34 GMT (UK)
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Researching John Williams said to have been born Mochdre around 1851. Father's name was Richard Williams. Don't know any other details, sorry.
Thanks
Jack
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How about this? I just searched in Montgomeryshire. There was one other with father Richard but none born Mochdre.
1861 census for Gwrrid, Pentre, Esgairgeiliog
RG number: RG09 Piece: 4249 Folio: 89 Page: 6
WILLIAMS, Richard Head Married M 36 Farmer Of 14 Acres
Mochdre Montgomeryshire
WILLIAMS, Sarah Wife Married F 35 Farmers Wife Oswestry Shropshire
WILLIAMS, John Son M 9 Scholar Shelve Shropshire
WILLIAMS, Joseph Son M 6 Scholar Shelve Shropshire
WILLIAMS, Oliver Son M 0 (6M) Mochdre Montgomeryshire
Cheers, Rian.
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That's fantastic. Thanks Rian. The age of 9 for son John is almost spot on with the John Williams I am researching. In 1881 census for Birkenhead he gives his birthplace as Mochtre, in 1901 he says he is from Welshpool. Confusing heh? But on his marriage certificate his father is shown as Richard. However, I haven't seen it yet so cannot confirm father's occupation.
Thanks for your help anyway.
Best wishes for Christmas and New year
Jack
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I hope you don't mind me popping in here :) BUT the entry that Rian found should be treated as a "possible" only. Although the age of John is right for a birth year of about 1851, the birthplace is Shelve, Shropshire, not Montgomeryshire. Of course, this could be an error, so many were unsure of where they were born.
I think firstly you should get a copy of John's marriage certificate to confirm his father's name and occupation. It's also worth noting who the witnesses were: quite often they were other family members. Also, brides and grooms were known to lie about their ages, so John may not have been born in 1851!!!
I did a search of the 1851 Wales census and found the following family in Welshpool:
HO107/2498 Folio 661 Page 36 - Raven Square, Welshpool
Richard Williams Head M 36 Grocer born Montgomeryshire Bettws
Sarah Williams Wife M 34 Grocer's Wife born Montgomeryshire Guilsfield
John Williams Son 5 Scholar born Montgomeryshire Welshpool
David Williams Son 5 Scholar born Montgomeryshire Welshpool
Richard Williams Son 6 months At Home born Montgomeryshire Welshpool
Twins in the family!!!!
I know that the John listed is 5 years of age, but until you are able to see a copy of his birth certificate, don't disregard anything!
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In the 1861 Wales census there is a Williams family living in Pool Quay (which is about 2 miles from Welshpool), with son John age 10, and father Richard.
I can also see another family in Darowen, son John age 7, father Richard.
Williams is such a common name and, therefore, very easy to go along the wrong trail!!!! I have done it myself with my Welsh JONES lines :'( :D
Can you post the full RG reference for the 1881 and 1901 census please so I can have a look at the images.
Jan
P.S. I nearly forgot to say.......Welcome to Rootschat, and I hope you have a very Merry Christmas.
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Thanks Jan.
I have requested marriage cert. online but I guess it will be a week or two before it comes through. RG refs are. 1881 RG 11/3586. 1891 RG 12/2891. and 1901 RG 13/3398. All for Tranmere, Birkenhead.
Many thanks.
Best wishes to you and Rian for Christmas and New Year.
John
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Hello Jack
Thank you for the references.........but have you got the folio and page numbers to go with each one?
Here's hoping!!!!
Jan
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Hi Jan,
Sorry I'm not sure what these are but here is what I can find.
1881 piece missing from the left hand corner. It has a number 155 stamped in the "Where born" heading just under the missing piece. On the opposite side it has schedule numbers 172 to 175 and the address was 15 Railway Terrace, Tranmere, Birkenhead. Municipal ward Egerton.
1891 No. 85 stamped in left hand margin. Page No. 23. Schedule No. 123. Address 20 Brunswick Street, Tranmere, Birkenhead, Municipal ward Mersey.
1901 No. 66 stamped in left hand margin. Page 21. Schedule No.118 Adress 21 Brunswick Street, Tranmere, Birkenhead.
That's all I can see. Hope it helps.
Thanks
Best wishes
John
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Hello John
Firstly, I hope you had a great Christmas :)
I have found your Williams family......John Williams and wife Christina....hope I've got the right ones!!!
Interestingly, John's place of birth is showing on the image as Merionethshire, but I agree that the second word is Mochtre, which is of course in Montgomeryshire (and spelt Mochdre).
From the 1881:
Have you noticed Christina's place of birth: Candrole ? East Indies (British Subject). That could be a query for The Common Room Board ;)
Also, there is a Son listed with the children who has the surname McInnes, and although it says he is Son of the Head, I assume that he is in fact John's step-son, so Catherine may have been married for to a Mr McInnes. Have you found a marriage record?
1891
John's place of birth is NK, Wales, "Not Know" not being very helpful!!!
1891
I see that John is a widower, and his place of birth has changed to Welshpool :o
Before I continue, can you confirm whether or not you have John and Christina's marriage certificate, and know her maiden name?
Thanks
Jan
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I have just been having a nose at the FreeBMD and found the following births for the children:
Births September Quarter 1873
John Thomas McInnes
District: Birkenhead (which covers Tranmere)
Volume: 8a
Page: 494
Births December Quarter 1877
Edmund Williams
District: Birkenhead (which covers Tranmere)
Volume: 8a
Page 540
Both certificates would confirm Christina's previous names, if you haven't done so already.
Jan
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I've found wife Christina in the 1871 census:
RG10/3751 Folio 124 Pag 47 - 15 Mersey Road, Tranmere, Birkenhead
Working for the Marshall family -
Christine McInnes Serv Unm 23 General Servant (+ Domestic) born India (British Subject)
This confirms that her son John was indeed illegitimate, and that she wasn't previously married :'(
I wonder where John is hiding in 1871?
Jan
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Just thought I'd throw this in too :D :D
Marriages December Quarter 1874
Christina McInnes, and on the same page, John Williams
District: Birkenhead (which covers Tranmere)
Volume: 8a
Page: 775
Get that marriage certificate!!!!! ;D
Jan
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Thanks Jan. We had a good Christmas. Hope you did too.
The main clue which started this research was my wife's (nee Williams) grandad's statement. Family legend said that he declared himself to be a "Welsh Indian", but nobody knew why. Well we know his dad, John Williams was born in Machtre/Mochtre/Mochdre. His mother Christina, as we have discovered very recently, was born in Cannonore, India in 1847 into the 25th Regiment of Foot (The King's Own Borderers). Her surname was McInnes. Another contact at RootsChat has come up with the same ancestors and her father was a Thomas McInnes. However, where I'm stuck is with the Williams family at Mochdre. There appear to be so many that tracking down will probably be difficult. The contact I made through this board has further information. Just a matter of getting their scanner working again so they can e-mail it to me.
I greatly appreciate your help and advice.
Best wishes
John
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Hello John
What an interesting story!!!! How I wish I had something like that in my family tree....mine are all Ag Labs or Weavers from Montgomeryshire ;D ;D
Anyway, back to yours.....have you got John and Christina's marriage certificate? If you haven't, it would be worthwhile purchasing it to confirm John's father's name. At least with a father's name it will be a little easier to narrow down the correct family in earlier census.
Best wishes
Jan :)
Added: I have just noticed in your original post that you say John's father was a Richard Williams!! How did I miss that? Can you confirm how you know it's Richard? Also, if you do have the marriage certificate what's John's age, and who were the witnesses?
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Hi again Jan,
My contact has marriage cert of John Williams and Christina McInnes. His father is shown as Richard Williams. However, she hasn't given his occupation and at the moment cannot send me a e-mail copy of the cert. I have asked the relevant questions so fingers crossed I'll get those vital answers in a day or two!
Yes. I've wondered where John was in 1871. I had a free go at Ancestry.com a couple of weeks ago so I trawled the 1871 census but there are so many John Williams I just gave up. :(
I'll be in touch when I get more information.
Thanks and best wishes
John
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I've wondered where John was in 1871. I had a free go at Ancestry.com a couple of weeks ago so I trawled the 1871 census but there are so many John Williams I just gave up.
I've just done the same thing......I started going through the images, but got nowhere :D
I shall wait patiently to hear from you again ;)
Jan :)
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Hi Jan.
I just got a e-mail from my contact. Basically, her husband and my wife are both descendants of John Williams.
I don't know how she got this information but from John and Christina's marriage cert John's father is Richard Williams, labourer. She has linked him with a family in 1861 census living at 23 Cool Quay, Tirymynach, Montgomeryshire.
Richard Head Labourer
Harriet Wife
Abel son 1843
David son 1854
Edmund son 1840
John son 1851
Mary dau 1841.
In 1871 at 50 Bank House, Pools Quay, Montgomeryshire
Richard Head Labourer
Hariet Wife
David son
Elizabeth granddaughter.
Also in 1871 living at 49 Bank House, Pools Quay
Edmund Williams Head Labourer
Louisa wife
Edmund son.
In 1881 18 Swan Bank, Pool Quay
Richard Widower age 80 Labourer
Harriet dau 40 general servant
Mary Anne grandaughter 4
There is no mention of daughter Harriet on 1861 but age matches that of Mary on 1861. Mmmm. Maybe?
Coincidently on 1891 census John Williams has sons named Richard and Edmund. Another clue? My contact also says that there is a record of an Abel Williams living at Henry Street, Birkenhead, who could well be John's brother.
I believe it significant is that Pools Quay is on the Shropshire Union Canal which runs all the way to Ellesmere Port which is about 8 miles from Tranmere.
I have some time off work next week so I may pop down to Pool Quay to have a look around.
Cheers for now.
John
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Hello again John
1861 census living at 23 Cool Quay, Tirymynach, Montgomeryshire.
Richard Head Labourer
Harriet Wife
Abel son 1843
David son 1854
Edmund son 1840
John son 1851
Mary dau 1841.
I have had a look at the image and it shows MANAFON as John's birthplace, which rather confuses matters further doesn't it?
The village of Manafon (near Welshpool) is 14.5 miles from Mochdre :-\
BUT, on checking the 1851 I found the family in Llanllugan (which is about 3 miles from Manafon):
HO107/2497 folio 43 page 10 - Upper Felling? Mill, Llanllugan, Montgomeryshire
Richard Williams Head Marr 38 Fuller born Montgomeryshire Llanwydllen
Harriet Williams Wife Marr 40 born Montgomeryshire Berriew
Richard Williams Son U 17 born Montgomeryshire Llanwllchairan
Harriet Williams Dau U 15 born Montgomeryshire Mochdre
Edmund Williams Son U 12 born Montgomeryshire Mochdre
Abel Williams Son U 8 born Montgomeryshire Manafon
Thomas Williams Son U 7 born Montgomeryshire Llanllugan
John Williams Son 6 months born Montgomeryshire Llanllugan
Interestingly, two of the children were born in Mochdre.
I can see daughter Harriet in 1901 still in Pool Quay with her daughter Mary A, and in the 1871 she's still in Pool Quay working as a Servant for Edward & Elizabeth Jones. There's a couple of possibiilities for her in the 1861....both Servants.
Jan
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Just noticed that in the 1881:
Edmund Williams is still living next door to dad Richard, with his wife Louisa, and children: John, Elizabeth, Edmund and Alice.
In 1881 18 Swan Bank, Pool Quay
Richard Widower age 80 Labourer
Harriet dau 40 general servant
Mary Anne grandaughter 4
:) :) :)
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If the family in our previous posts are indeed the right one, then I have found John in the 1871 :o :o
RG10/3745 folio 5 page 9 - 25 Henry Street, Birkenhead
Abel Williams Head M 28 Mariner? born Wales
Sarah Williams Wife M 27 born Lancashire
Thomas Williams Son 14 Labourer born Cheshire B'head
Wm Williams Son 10 born Cheshire B'head
Jane Williams Dau 8 born Cheshire B'head
Abel Williams Son 2 born Cheshire B'head
John Williams Bro Unm 23 Labourer born Wales
Edward Williams Lodger Unm 23 Railway Porter born Salop
Wm Bernard Lodger Unm 26 Railway Porter born Ireland
Jan :D
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Hello again Jan
Many thanks again for all your help with this query. It's a good bet that this is my John Williams living with his brother, Abel in 1871 Birkenhead. It's sad that the last living link, my wife's aunt Esther Williams died last year at the age of 90. She would have remembered. She was the one that put us onto the "Welsh Indian" search. We will need to contact other cousins and grill them for letters, diaries anything which could link people together.
Jan, are you living in the UK or overseas? If you think there is anything I can help you with please do not hesitate to contact me. I am only about 90 minutes drive from Welshpool so could try to get photos at least.
Best wishes for a Happy New year. :)
John
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Hello John
This is a topic that we shall have to put to rest until your other cousins can put you out of your misery. I really hope that someone will have the answer.......do let me know, won't you?
I live in the UK, and actually much nearer to Welshpool than you do!!!!!!! I'm in Shrewsbury, Shropshire so about 15 miles from the Powys border. Thank you for the offer of photos, but I think it should be the other way round ;D I've got a digital camera so if there is any photos you need please contact me.
I had a nose at your profile and see that you are in Cheshire. Are you far away from the village of Shocklach? My Challinor/Challenor were from there.
Best wishes.....and a very Happy New Year.
Jan :)
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Oops! Sorry Jan. I never looked at your profile before I asked that question.
I live in Warrington, Cheshire so I guess you are a wee bit closer to Schocklach than I am.
Once again. Thanks for all your help. I will let you know how I get on with John Williams and his ancestry.
Happy New Year.
John