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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent Lookup Requests => Kent => England => Kent Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: loo on Wednesday 20 December 06 21:31 GMT (UK)
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I have a Sarah C. CLIFFORD, b. about 1805, and
Ann(e) Maria CLIFFORD, b. about 1811.
They were sisters. Both were born Maidstone. This is all that I know about their origins.
Ann Maria married William WEST, probably in Maidstone and probably around 1829, but I have no record.
Sarah remained unmarried as of 1851.
Does anyone have access to any records which might illuminate their families of origin?
Thanks!
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Hi Loo,
Iv'e found her In the IGI,born Dec' 28 ,father James,mother Sarah,there is also a marriage Sarah Cliffard to John Allred 1828,Old Charlton Kent,perhaps you could look them up in a census and see what you think.
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Sorry, I'm not following you. Who was born in 1828? (I don't have anyone born 1828 that I know of.)
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Hi Loo. :)
This is Sarah's birth from the IGI...
Sarah Catherine Clifford
Female
Birth: 28 DEC 1805
Christening: 26 JAN 1806 Maidstone, Kent, England
Father: James Clifford
Mother: Sarah
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And here is Ann...
Ann Clifford
Female
Christening: 07 FEB 1810 Maidstone, Kent, England
Father: James Clifford
Mother: Sarah
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Sarah in 1851 Census...
Maidstone - 1 Romney Place
Sarah C Clifford, Sister In Law, Unm, 46, Nurse, Born Maidstone
Other members of the household...
Ann West 1
Ann M West 40
Charles I West 17
Fanny West 5
John West 9
Maria West 3
Mary C West 15
William West 41
William T West 19
Can't see her on 1861, 1871 so assume she married between 1851 and 1861 and changed name.
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1861 census RG9 751 folio 17
Aborfield Berkshire
Sarah C Clifford 50 Maidstone Widow Servant Housekeeper
1871 census RG10 1286 folio 51
Aborfield Berkshire
Sarah Catherine Clifford 65 Maidstone Widow Servant Housekeeper
Death 1875 December quarter
Catherine Sarah Clifford 70
Volume 2c
page 252
Regards
Valda
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You have all been extremely helpful, and now I can add another generation to my tree!
I don't know how it is that I didn't find these people on the IGI - neither one of them. I must have been bleary-eyed that day. I'm going to go and check it again now!!
I had Sarah in 1851 but not beyond, and am doubtful that these are her, as I have no evidence she was widowed - if so, her name would not have been CLIFFORD, I don't think. But perhaps someone thought it would be convenient for her to be widowed. I may try the death cert.
Thanks again for your time and thought on this one!
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I imagine the someone was her. There doesn't seem any candidates for a widowed Sarah C or Sarah Catherine on the 1851 census born Maidstone widowed or married, or any marriages to a Sarah Catherine by a Clifford 1851 to 1861.
No deaths or marriages for a Sarah Catherine Clifford 1851-1871 on FreeBMD (not a complete index but getting there).
Regards
Valda
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Thanks.
I suppose there is also the possibility that a marriage wasn't registered or she is hidden in misspellings etc.
The main thing is that it looks like I have the parents now. :)
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Always that possibility, but it doesn't explain who the woman in Aborfield was.
Regards
Valda
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True, although there is always the possibility that she was someone who had been married and widowed since the previous census, so that this name would not have appeared earlier.
I'm wondering if anyone knows if there would be any parish records to back up the IGI. It says they are extracted, but it doesn't say from where, not even the name of the parish, which seems odd to me. I'm thinking that if there are births, perhaps there are marriages somewhere, so that I could track the parents. I'm also wondering if there were any other siblings, although none are obvious to me on the IGI.
I have another woman in my tree who married at about 50 for the first time, was widowed, and then lived to be 100!
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I had already checked FreeBMD to see whether they had a marriage of a Clifford to a Sarah Catherine or a Catherine Sarah just in case. FreeBMD does not have complete coverage of the GRO index (itself not a perfect index) between 1851 and 1861 but it is pretty close. There is only one possible match back in 1841 but the IGI has the marriage and Robert Clifford did not marry the Sarah Catherine in the list of possible spouses.
FreeBMD marriage coverage
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/progressM.shtml
Maidstone parish church was All Saints. I suspect there is no coverage of the parish registers on the IGI (and also not on the BVRI). The two baptisms will have been extracted from the Bishops Transcripts.
Pallots Marriage index has a James Clifford marriage to a Sarah Pattonden/Pattenden in Kent in 1804 - it just says TR (again from a Transcript? and doesn't specify the place). The person to contact about information about the possibility of this marriage and where it actually took place, is the one name researcher for the surname Pattenden. You will find her details at the Guild of One Name Studies.
http://www.one-name.org/
She hopefully will be able to tell you more about Sarah Pattenden (presuming this is a likely marriage for your James and Sarah). I know from experience she has detailed records.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you again, Valda. You are always so helpful and reliable.
I had not thought about Pallot's, although it's obvious, because I don't have easy access to it. I shall follow through on the Pattenden possibility. Fancy you having already had contact with this person! Do you have Pattendens too?
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I also research a one name study and have exchanged information in the past with Karen about a couple of marriages where are mutual surnames tied the knot.
Regards
Valda
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I see.
I am in correspondence with her now, and have already received some very interesting leads going back to mid-1700s.
Thanks for the reference, Valda.
loo
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Something to ponder, loo
If Sarah was the houskeeper,she may have been given the "honorary" title of "Mrs".
housekeepers and cooks ,especially, often were;as a status symbol & her employer would have filled out the census form.
Just a thought
Ellvera ;)
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Thank you, Ellvera. I was not aware of that custom.
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Just thought I'd let all you helpers know that I have determined from Karen, the Pattenden one-name studier, that the marriage of James CLIFFORD and Sarah PATTENDEN in 1804 actually occurred in Kensington, not Kent. (Probably some index had abbreviated it to Ken.) Through her help and that of indiapaleale, who was in the chat room with me, I have seen the original entries for both parties. Problem is that Karen does not think there were any PATTENDENs in Kensington at that time, and very very few in London at all (none seem related, and all are in the east end), so this marriage is still a mystery. Because it seems to have no "roots", however, this suggests to me that it might be the right marriage, that somehow these two Maidstoners made their way to Kensington and married there, and then moved back to Maidstone.
She was, however, able to locate the marriage of Ann Maria CLIFFORD and William WEST in Boxley (part of Maidstone area) in 1830. I feel fairly confident that this is the correct marriage, as the timing and place are right, and there don't seem to be any other couples by these names in 1841.
Does anyone know, is there anywhere that you can look up which parishes are covered by Pallot's and by Boyd's?
I'm going to pursue that death for Sarah next.
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The Kent Research Planning Aid shows "the time periods of births, christenings, marriages and burials for each parish of Kent as indexed in the International Genealogical Index ("IGI"), Boyd's and Pallot's Marriage Indexes, the British Vital Records Index 2nd Edition ("BVRI"), and the National Burial Index ("NBI")."
http://www.ancestrysolutions.com/KRPARev2004.html
A very useful resource.
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Thank you again, bearkat. That really is a great resource. I have people from Deptford as well, who are a mystery to me, and I had not realized Deptford was in Kent :o
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In 1804 the church in Kensington would be the original parish church - St Mary Abbots one of the few churches not to have deposited its registers (they have an archivist)
Kensington Local Studies library have a transcript of the church records
http://www.rbkc.gov.uk/libraries/localstudiesandarchives/default.asp
and will be able to give you details for contacting the church archivist.
If you pursue the records I'm sure Karen would be interested in the details concerning the marriage entry.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you, Valda. Will do.
I sure hope this can be done by mail, snail or e!
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Hi Loo
Ann Clifford married William West 12.3.1830 at Boxley
Regards
Dave
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Thanks, Dave. I did manage to get that from the one-name study person.
Are you a CLIFFORD, davecliff?