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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: sallysmum on Wednesday 20 December 06 20:18 GMT (UK)
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Just had my first foray to the records office and would like some help interpreting the results I found. According to the census, gt gt grandfather James Spence was born in 1814 in Spennithorne or Harmby N Yorks. I searched the christenings for that year and surrounding years but no joy. I did however find a James Spence b 1809 in Spennithorne. Now because the census indicated that he was born in 1814 I am hesitant to accept this as being gt gt grandfather. Can I have some comments and maybe ideas as to how to progress this further.
Second result. According to the same census, his wife Mary was born in 1809 in Gilling, Yorks. No problem – I find her as the illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth Leeming. Hooray! I can hopefully go back 1 generation from this. I searched the Gilling records but no Leemings! Thinking a little more laterally, Mary and James settled in Leyburn so I searched the Leyburn records for Leemings – found an Elizabeth Leeming’s christening in 1787. No marriage records for an Elizabeth Leeming until a few years after Mary was born. Can I assume this Elizabeth Leeming is Mary’s mother? I have found her death and have sent off for the cert to see if this gives any further info. Again any comments and ideas of how to verify this information.
Sallysmum
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The first thing is that I take it the years were 1800's!I would be more inclined to take the Year of Birth from a Parish Register,accepting that everything else fits.Birthyears given in Census Entries are none too reliable.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham
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oops yes - just modified my post (I read and reread it - thought it was OK!) So even tho Mary's birth year tallied, I fear James' didn't - you would be inclined to accept that maybe James was B 1809?
Sallysmum
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There are all sorts of reasons why people gave an incorrect Birthyear in the Census.Pride or even ignorance,as you have to remember people in those days did not celebrate Birthdays as people may do today,even if they knew them!
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Next door to the family in 1841 in Leyburn is Christopher Leeming aged 70 an ag lab.
Deaths Dec 1841
LEEMING Christopher Leyburn 24 269
Does he have any connection to Elizabeth Leeming?
Was Elizabeth also Leyburn in 1841?
James Spence is completely consistent with his age on every census from 1841 to 1881 and also on the age given on his death. He married Mary Leeming in 1832. If he was truthful on his marriage then to be consistent with the age given on the censuses James would have married under age - under the age of 21). The marriage entry should specify that he was marrying under age and the banns book (if the marriage was by banns, or the marriage allegation if the marriage was by licence) should give the information who gave permission for him to marry.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Sallysmum,
Regarding the census there were only two people by the name of James Spence listed in this area, one born in Wensley and the other born in Spennithorne/Harmby.
Both accounted for on the IGI records, the first mentioned, born in 1810 and the latter 1809 in Spennithorne.
Like you I can't quite fathom why the census returns were consistantly wrong, but as was said before, the parish records are the ones to be believed.
Pels :)
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Valda - once again thanks for your insight. I keep forgetting to return to the census! I don't know if Christopher Leeming is related. I had only just found Elizabeth's christening record when I was booted out of of the records office, but I did find Christopher's death record on route along with an older Mary, of a similar age to Christopher. Elizabeth's parents? More work in the records office required.
Elizabeth married a William Fishwick in 1815 and can be found on the 1841 and 1851. I think she died in 1860. Interestingly William was a cordwainer and James Spence lists his occupation as shoemaker on his first son's christening. Coincidence? Well there is also another Spence in Leyburn who is also a shoemaker - I don't as yet know the relationship of him to my James.
Whilst going thru the birth records, I also found an entry for a Thomas Leeming - Elizabeth's brother? Now Mary names 2 of her children (neither survived) Thomas.
A lot of coincidences here pointing to the fact that maybe this Leeming family is mine. However, why would Elizabeth go to Gilling to have her illegitimate child, Mary?
Back to James. I have the Banns - no mention that special licence was required - thus does this suggest he was of age, ie born 1809 rather than 1814?
Pels - I can well see how one can get on the wrong track here. Knowing he settled in Leyburn, if I didn't have the census info that he was born in Spennithorne, I would have assumed he could have been the guy born in Wensley.
Sallysmum
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Don't forget that the IGI is not full coverage. There may be several other James Spence entries in parishes which are not indexed. Next time you go to the record office take a quick look at all the transcriptions of the parish registers which they will have on the shelves - much quicker than looking at films. If you see a lot of Spence entries then you can search that particular parish on film.
Have you been in contact with the Upper Dales Family History Group? They have a very active email group who are very helpful. They are part of the Cleveland FH Group.
Andrea
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Just had a closer look at the 1841 where Christopher Leeming is listed - he's not next door, he's living with the Spences - bingo! Can I surmise that he is thus Mary's grandfather - oohhh can't wait to get back to the records office now!
Sallysmum
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You don't need a special licence to marry under age just permission from a parent or guardian. The marriage register itself should state one of the party was under age and the banns (or licence if they had married by licence) should give details of who was giving the permission. Under age people if they could get away with it, often didn't admit they were under age because of the extra hassle, so this alone doesn't prove James was indeed over 21 but if he had been under age it would have helped confirm the age given on the censuses.
Other parishes did not open their doors to unmarried mothers giving birth in their area so the question isn't why did Elizabeth go to Gilling to give birth to Mary. She would have to have been established there and have settlement, otherwise Gilling would have moved her back to Leyburn. They wouldn't have wanted an illegitimate child and mother charged to their rates if they could have helped it. Try checking the poor law for any evidence of Elizabeth and Mary - settlement/removal and or a bastardy order.
James does not just give Spennithorne as his place of birth - he only gives that once, Harmby twice and 'Throstle Nest' once - which is a very specific place. I believe from Googling there is a Throstle Nest farm at Harmby.
"HARMBY, in the parish of Spennithorne wapentake of Hang West & liberty of Richmondshire; ¾ mile NW. of Spennithorne, 1 mile E. of Leyburn. Population, 194."
If you search on the censuses for any other Spences giving Throstle Nest as a birthplace you find one on the 1871 census.
RG10 4743 folio 126
North Riding of Yorkshire Lunatic Asylum Clifton Yorkshire .
Richd Spence 60 Throstle Nest Patient Widower Shoemaker
Back tracking him on censuses you get
1861 census RG9 3544 folio 98
North and East Riding of Yorkshire Lunatic Asylum Clifton Yorkshire
Richard Spence 51 East Witton, Yorkshire, Patient Widower Shoemaker
1851 census HO107 2379 folio 155
West Witton Yorkshire
Richard Spence 47 Harmby, Yorkshire, Head Widower Master Shoemaker
Elizabeth Spence 17 West Witton, Yorkshire, Daughter Housekeeper
Hauxwell Spence 8 West Witton, Yorkshire, Son
Susanna Spence 5 West Witton, Yorkshire, Daughter
Jackson Spence 1 West Witton, Yorkshire, Son
1841 census HO107 1254/14 folio 8 page 11
West Witton Yorkshire
Richard Spencer 30 Yorkshire Shoemaker
Catharine Spencer 30 Yorkshire
Elizabeth Spencer 7 Yorkshire
John Spencer 6 Yorkshire
William Spencer 4 Yorkshire
Richard Spencer 1 Yorkshire
From the IGI
RICHARD SPENCE
CATHERINE JACKSON
Marriage: About 14 MAY 1833 West Witton, Yorkshire
And of course rather tantalising the earlier two Spennithorne baptisms are
JAMES SPENCE
Christening: 31 DEC 1809 Spennithorne, Yorkshire
Father: JOHN SPENCE
Mother: ALICE
RICHARD SPENCE
Christening: 13 AUG 1809 Spennithorne, Yorkshire
Father: JOHN SPENCE
Mother: ALICE
Regards
Valda
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Elizabeth Fishwick born Leyburn on the 1851 census gives her age as 74 (birth circa 1777).
Christopher Leeming in Leyburn on the 1841 census was aged 70 (adult ages rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census) so a birth circa 1771 - 1767.
From the IGI the three Leeming baptisms in Wensley (covering Leyburn) are
CHRS. LEEMING
Christening: 12 SEP 1773 Wensley, Yorkshire
MARTIN LEMING
Christening: 27 DEC 1775 Wensley, Yorkshire
Father: CHRS. LEMING
(a baker in Ripon 1841 and 1851 censuses)
ELIZ. LEEMING
Christening: 05 APR 1778 Wensley, Yorkshire
Father: CHRS. LEEMING
From the National Burial Index
20th June 1821
Christopher LEEMING 82
Yorks N/R Wensley, Holy Trinity
18th August 1827
Mary LEEMING 97
Yorks N/R Wensley, Holy Trinity
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda - these last 2 posts are begining to put the picture together - many thanks for your time and knowledge.
James Spence's marraige - I only picked up the Banns - no mention of him being under age here. Will have to go back and see the register (didn't think to pick that up aswell) to check it out
Elizabeth Leeming's marriage to William Fishwick - Martin Leeming is one of the witnesses
Elizabeth's stay in Gilling - where do I find hte bastardy orders/poor law records - are these in the records office again?
Cheers
Sallysmum
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Yes any poor law records (settlement, removal and bastardy orders) if they have survived (or were ever generated in the first place) should be in the county record office.
The asylum records - if you want to delve away slightly from your direct line (asylum records are detailed and I think fascinating) are held at the Borthwick Institute
Regards
Valda
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Just received death cert fo Elizabeth Fishwick - Mary Spence was the informant - more confidence to the Leyburn Leemings being mine! Thanks all
Sallysmum
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Sallysmum,
I think we are researching the same SPENCE family - I'll send you more information by PM.
Pinetree
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Hi, my name is Jennifer Hawkswell and my gt gt Grandad was John Hauxwell b.1863 and married Catherine Spence b.1862. They were married in 1883 and I think that there is a definate link in our ancestors. I have managed to trace a few names back to a John Spence b.1788c who married Alice Spence. If anyone has anymore information on the Spence family, I know Pinetree does, then I would be most grateful. Thanks Jeni.
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Hi jenzzzzz
I have PMed you - I can't believe from my simple query I have discovered another rellie - how amazing is that!
sallysmum
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Hi my name is Jennifer Hawkswell and I've come to a stop in searching for my ancestors on my Dads side. My Great great Grandfather was called John Hauxwell b.1863 in Moreton on Swale, Leyburn, Yorkshire. He married Catherine Spence (b.1862 West Witton, Leyburn, Yorkshire) in 1883. The problem is that I can't find John Hauxwell on any Census before 1881 and I really want to trace his parents as the Hauxwell/Hawkswell side is the main link down to me! I've tried searching different spellings, changing years and allsorts but found nothing! I have managed to trace a lot of the Spence side (his wifes side) but need some more info on John. If anyone has ANY information or knows how I could find more out please could you let me know! Thanks, Jeni.
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Hi Jennifer,
Firstly I think it should be Morton on Swale - I will check this out for you!!
Kind regards,
Pels :)
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Hi Jen
Have you sent off for John's birth cert - that should give his parent's names
Wendy
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Jeni
Try the Dales Family History group - part of Cleveland FHS. They have a very active email group who are all experts in that area.
Andrea
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On the 1891 census John an agricultural labourer is married in Carperby Cum Thoresby, aged 30. He gives his birthplace as Morton on Swale.
In 1901 the family is in Thornton Steward. John a 39 year old horseman on a farm, consistently gives his birthplace as Morton on Swale.
I can't see John on the 1881 census?
What information does his marriage certificate give about his father?
Regards
Valda
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Hi everyone,
I have a strong feeling the missing link is in the Crakehall/Burneston area, but I can't put my finger on it at this early hour?
Could someone please check to see if there is a possible connection to this neck of the woods?
Pels :)
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Hi Guys,
I have managed to find a couple of possibilities for John Hauxwell in earlier census'. But they need some more investigation. The correct spelling of John's name is HAUXWELL. However on Ancestry.co.uk's website he appears on the 1901 census as John Hawlxwell (which I think is someone not understanding the writing on the census!)
In 1891 he appears as John Hauxwell.
In 1881 he appears as John Hawkswell (my name), but the birthplace has moved to Crakehall and not Moreton on Swale.
After hours of searching I think I might have found him on Crakehall's records for 1871, if finds a John Hankswell aged 6 which would make his birth year 1865, but I'm pretty sure that he was born in 1863. It says that this John was born in Moreton on Swale and gives the parents names of Dorothy and James both born in 1818. And 3 sisters called Harriet b.1857, Mary b.1852 and Philas b. 1862. Now although all this excited me (the 1871 census) I can't be sure that it is him. I'm going to try to order his birth certificate, but I want to be sure which John Hauxwell is right! John's Dad was a Green Grocer and his Mum was a Servant.
Hopefully this might lead to some more information!
Thanks, Jeni.
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Hi Jeni,
Brilliant news, I think you are on the right track here!! I had found this family living in Crakehall - and John in 1881. The similarities were too much of a coincidence!
Pels
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Here is something that might be of interest for you to browse through:
http://www.glenlodge.me.uk/crakehallindex.html
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Hi again,
I've just checked the 1871 on Ancestry after looking at the transcriptions on the link I sent you.
Ian Hancock, the owner of the web site has transcribed their name as Haukswell in 1871.
Ancestry have confused the issue by transcibing the name as Hankswell, on the actual return it clearly reads as Haukswell.
I checked the family in 1881, ref. RG11/4871, folio 82, page 10. The name is now written as Hauxwell.
Quite sure you are already aware of all this, but it's sometimes reassuring to know that someone else is reaching the same conclusions!
I will keep my fingers crossed for the outcome of the certificate!
Kind regards,
Pels
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1861 census RG9 3669 folio 44
Holy Moon Patrick Brompton Yorkshire
James Hawxwell 42 Bedale Head Married Hind
Dorothy Hawxwell 42 Brafferton Wife Married
Thomas Hawxwell 12 Bedale Son
Eleanor Hawxwell 11 Bedale Daughter
Mary Hawxwell 9 Bedale Daughter
Elizabeth Hawxwell 7 Bedale Daughter
Harriot Hawxwell 4 Bedale Daughter
Margaret Hawxwell 2 Bedale Daughter
Fellas Hawxwell 13mths Patrick Brompton Daughter
Hind = 1) Domestic servant 2) A skilled farm labourer (Scotland)
Births Mar 1861
Hautwell Phillis Leyburn 9d 462
1851 census HO107 2378 folio 106
Crakehall Yorkshire
James Hawkswill 33 Crakehall, Yorkshire, Head Married Ag labourer
Dorothy Hawkswill 32 Helperby, Yorkshire, Wife Married
Ann Hawkswill 7 Crakehall, Yorkshire, Daughter
James Hawkswill 5 Crakehall, Yorkshire, Son
Thomas Hawkswill 3 Crakehall, Yorkshire, Son
Ellen Hawkswill 1 Crakehall, Yorkshire, Daughter
Marriages Jun 1841
CRAVEN Dorothy Easingwold 24 335
HAWKSWELL James Easingwold 24 335
1841 census HO107 1239/15 folio 3 page 1
Helperby Brafferton Yorkshire
William Craven 50 Yorkshire Ag labourer
Ellen Craven 50 Yorkshire
Dorothy Craven 22 Yorkshire
1841 census HO107 1250/4 folio 6 page 5
Little Crakehall Bedale Yorkshire
James Hawkeswell 60 Yorkshire Gardener
Ann Hawkeswell 60 Yorkshire
John Hawkeswell 30 Yorkshire
James Hawkeswell 20 Yorkshire Butcher
John Hawkeswell 10 Yorkshire
Ann Hawkeswell 12 Yorkshire
Regards
Valda
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Thanks everyone for all your help! I've got so much information to chew on now! I think it is the right family so going to look into buying John Hauxwell's birth certificate. The most frustrating thing about searching for your ancestors is not only the mispellings of names but the overuse of forenames! Everyone appears to be called John or James, keep getting very confused! If anyone finds anything else, small or big please let me know as it's all very interesting and useful! Thanks, Jeni Hawkswell.
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I found this entry on the 1901 census by accident, as I was looking for Elizabeth Spence at the time
Workhouse
SPENCE Hauxwell/inmate/S/59/Yks/Witton West - feeble minded from birth
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As this is an old thread you probably already have this but I'll post it anyway just in case. From the Wensley MIs
"In loving memory of James Spence who d 20 Dec 1882 aged 69 yrs. Also of Mary his wife who d 1(9) April 1891 aged 83 yrs. Also of two sons who d in infancy. Also of Thomas their son born 12 Nov 1832 d 31 Mar 1835. Also Elizabeth Ann Foster daughter of the above who d 14 Dec 1908 aged 71 yrs"