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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wiltshire Lookup Requests => Wiltshire => England => Wiltshire Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: kentishmaid on Tuesday 12 December 06 16:43 GMT (UK)

Title: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Tuesday 12 December 06 16:43 GMT (UK)
Something unexpected has cropped up, andI would be very grateful if anyone could help me find out more. 

Mary Ann Hobbs married Peter Withers in about 1828 - two years later he was tranported to Tasmania for taking part in the Swing Riots.  They had at least two children (twin girls), possibly more.

However, it now turns out that Mary Ann had three children before her marriage to Peter (Martha Gwynn Hobbs, bap 12/8/21, Mary Gwynn Hobbs bap 16/3/23, and George Gwynn Hobbs bapt 27/7/27.  What is most interesting is that she had a fourth child, Evan Gwynn Hobbs, born 1835, died 1836, so the relationship with the father continued over quite a long period and after Peter's transportation.  The eldest girl, Martha, showed a George Gwynn as being her father on her marriage certificate.

I would be fascinated to know who George Gwynn was and why he and Mary Ann didn't or couldn't get married.

Mary Ann (still known as Mary Ann Withers) was living in London in 1851 with the married Martha as a neighbour.  I don't know where she was in 1841.

If anyone could help me with this one it would be much appreciated.

Kentishmaid
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Tuesday 12 December 06 17:16 GMT (UK)
Hi
In what Wiltshire parish were Mary Ann's children baptized and where did she marry Peter Withers?

There is a George Gwyn, age 50, living in Aldbourne in 1851, married to a Mary with a 22 year old daughter coincidently named Mary Ann Gwyn.   He has 2 other children, Meriam and George, aged 9 and 7.

Cheers dave
 
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: ninkynoo on Wednesday 13 December 06 13:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Kentishmaid
Have you read the book Essex Machine Breakers,The Story of the 1830 Swing Riots ?.
I have it and Peter Withers is mentioned in it ,I am happy to send you details.
Lin
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Wednesday 13 December 06 14:59 GMT (UK)
Hi Lin

Yes, please do send me details.  My son has just bought me Captain Swing by Eric Hobsbawm and George Rude for Christmas, but it would be particularly interesting for me to read something which mentions Peter Withers.  Thanks for telling me about it - I wouldn't have thought to check it out myself as I would have assumed from the title it was only about Essex.

Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Wednesday 13 December 06 15:07 GMT (UK)
Hi Dave

The children were all born in Ramsbury, and Mary Ann Hobbs married Peter Withers in the parish church of Ramsbury.

If the George Gwyn you have found is the George Gwynn who fathered Mary Ann's children, it means he had a Mary and a George with both Mary Ann and his wife!

Thanks for your interest

Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Wednesday 13 December 06 16:47 GMT (UK)
Have you any information on Peter's transportation, such as where and when were the court cases etc?   If not perhaps I can find something about it.   I would guess that the case came to court in 1830.
Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: ninkynoo on Wednesday 13 December 06 17:35 GMT (UK)
Essex Machine Breakers by Gill Chambers

Page 15
Concerning families of men transported
Other men had their families brought out at their own expense after they were free and some ,not all them batchelors married in Australia and made new lives for themselves. Peter Withers wrote several times to his wife in Wiltshire asking her to join him in Tasmania.He heard nothing from her until 1844 ,by which time he had married again .In his reply ,dated 20th 0ctober 1844 ,he tells her of this ."I now that to eare that I married is a hard trial for you to bare but it is no good to tell you a lye i sent a great many letters be4fore i took a wife so not earing from you an i being a young man i thought it a Proper thing to Look a partner wich would be a comfort to me in my Bondage........so we must not think about coming together again".

I think this may solve the problem of why she had another child.
Lin
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Wednesday 13 December 06 19:48 GMT (UK)
Hi Dave

I know a fair bit about Peter Withers' case - he took part in a riot in November 1830 in Rockly and injured a special constable.  In January 1831 he was sentenced to death (don't know at which court) but the sentence was commuted to transportation, and I believe he sailed on the HMS Proteus.

The rest of my family at that time - the Hunters from Ramsbury and Palmers from Thatcham, were all agricultural labourers so I think it's more than likely they were also involved in the riots, though presumably lucky enough not to be caught.

I'm finding it all very interesting - we never covered these incidents in my history lessons at school and I'm finding family history is teaching me a lot!

Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Wednesday 13 December 06 19:55 GMT (UK)
Hi Lin

Many thanks for the extract from the Essex Machine Breakers.  Peter seemed to be unusual to be able to write such letters.

Mary Ann had her fourth child with the mystery George Gwynn in 1835 (the child died in 1836).  I wonder whether he ended the relationship in 1844 and that is why she attempted a reconciliation with Peter.

I don't suppose I'll ever know for sure!

Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: ninkynoo on Wednesday 13 December 06 22:19 GMT (UK)



I'm finding it all very interesting - we never covered these incidents in my history lessons at school and I'm finding family history is teaching me a lot!


Fascinating reading though .My Gt Gt Gt Gt Grandfather Joseph Gladwell was convicted of conspiring to raise wages at Gt Clacton.
He was also accused of using 'opprobrious epithets' ???...he called someone a d****d rogue  ???
Luckily (or not so luckily) he was sentenced to 18 months.
Shame we did not cover this at school as so many people were brave enough to stand up for what they believed in.
 I think the letters thatPeter wrote were possibly written by someone who could write as most lower classes could not read or write at that time hence the huge amounts of X's in place of a signature.
Wish I had paid more attention in History though.
Lin
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Thursday 14 December 06 16:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Janet,
There was a special commission convened to try the rioters so he did not appear in District Court or Assizes.   I saw a series of books today of special interest to you called Wiltshire Machine Breakers.   Of particular interest is  Vol 2, The Rioters by Jill Chambers.   There is a lengthy section on Peter Withers including copies of he and his family's eviction from Ramsbury parish, warrant and committal including a physical description and family history, marriage in Tasmania and letters from him to his wife in UK and his brothers.

The warrant was dated 23 Nov 1830 and a death sentance was commuted to transportation for life.   On 10 Feb 1831 he was received on board the prison hulk York at Porstmouth and later transported on the Proteus.

Let me know if you want details of his marriages, family etc as above.

Cheers Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Thursday 14 December 06 16:21 GMT (UK)
I found the following marriages in Ramsbury
15 Feb 1828 George Gwynne of Andbourne (sic) could be Aldbourne or Ogbourne and Mary Angel by licence, witnesses Maria Angel and Henry Wilson.
28 Aug 1828 Peter Withers and Mary Ann Hobbs, witnesses James Sweeper and Eliza Cruse.

Cheers Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: Richard Knott on Thursday 14 December 06 17:31 GMT (UK)
Jun 1850    Kensington
Ann Withers m James Dunn (three other names possible)

1851   31 Market St, Paddington (close to mother)
HO107/146/593
James Dunn, 19, shoemaker, b St George;s Hanover Sq
Ann Dunn, 22, wife, b Ramsbury
James Dunn, 1m, son, b Paddington
George Hunt (?), 2, nephew, b St G H S

Mary Ann's sister, Hannah, married a Hunt.

Perhaps you knew this anyway.

Richard
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Friday 15 December 06 17:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Dave

Thank you for drawing the Wiltshire Machine Breakers to my attention - I've had a quick search on google and it looks as if I might have to get it direct from the author.  It sounds as if it will be a really worthwhile read for me.

I have details of Peter's marriage to Mary Ann Hobbs, but if you have any further details of his family it will be of great interest to me.


Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Friday 15 December 06 18:05 GMT (UK)
Hi Richard

Thanks for your post. 

The names Dunn and Hunt are familiar to me, but I did not know that one of them was a shoemaker (the same occupation as Peter Withers) so that was interesting.

I have always understood that Hannah's married name was Hunter, not Hunt, but I have other families I've been researching who change spellings of names so perhaps it is the same family.

Best wishes

Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Saturday 16 December 06 04:21 GMT (UK)
Hello again This is definite as I have the marriage certificate, Sarah Withers her twin sister married John Seath in Paddinton in 1849
Hazel
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: liverpool annie on Saturday 16 December 06 04:44 GMT (UK)


Hi Janet !

Don't know if you would be interested in this .... ( or if you already have it - but it might be worth a shot to email this man ..... !! )

Geoffrey Sharman has an interest in the SWING RIOTERS
About 475 of whom, convicted for ARSON, MACHINE BREAKING, RECEIVING, or RIOTING, were transported to Van Diemen's Land (VDL, now Tasmania) or New South Wales from 18 Counties of south east England 1831-33. The VDL contingent of 329 arrived in Hobart on Eliza (224 male), Mary (1 female) and Proteus (98 male) in 1831; Gilmore, Lord William Bentinck (1 male each), York (2 male) in 1832 and Lotus (2 male) in 1833. Three swing rioters, first transported to NSW per Eleanor, eventually became temporary or permanent Tasmanians bringing the total number of known VDL ex-Swing rioters to 332.

WITHERS, Peter: ba 1807 Chilton Foliatt WIL; m ENG ch; m 1836 TAS; d 1871 SA PWIL014

http://www.rootsweb.com/~austas/proteus.htm

Annie  :)
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Saturday 16 December 06 05:57 GMT (UK)
Jun 1850    Kensington
Ann Withers m James Dunn (three other names possible)

1851   31 Market St, Paddington (close to mother)
HO107/146/593
James Dunn, 19, shoemaker, b St George;s Hanover Sq
Ann Dunn, 22, wife, b Ramsbury
James Dunn, 1m, son, b Paddington
George Hunt (?), 2, nephew, b St G H S

Mary Ann's sister, Hannah, married a Hunt.

Perhaps you knew this anyway.

Richard
Hello Richard
James Dunn and Ann Dunn nee Withers were my great great grandparents and their oldest daughter Mary Ann Dunn who was born in 1854 was my great grandmother.She was my fathers grandmother.
I have been exchanging information with Janet.
Hazel Wiley nee Reed
Waipukurau, New Zealand
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Saturday 16 December 06 17:33 GMT (UK)
Hello Annie

Thank you for that suggestion - I have just emailed Geoffrey Sharman so will await his reply with interest!

Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Sunday 17 December 06 10:55 GMT (UK)
Hi Janet,
Sorry not to have answered sooner but I don't appear to have had notification of posts on this thread.
Here's some more info on Peter Withers from the book I mentioned (Wiltshire Machine Breakers vol 2).

Peter Withers and his wife and 2 children - Sarah and Ann, were a drain on parish resources and were removed from the parish of Ramsbury to Ogbourne St George, their 'place of lawful settlement' by on order dated 9 Feb 1830.

At age 23 Peter Withers was 'charged with having committed a riot at Rockley'.   The warrant was dated 23 Nov 1830.   He was sentenced to death, later commuted to transportation for life.   10 Feb 1831 he was received on the prison hulk, York, at Portsmouth.

Personal details from his record in Australia (presumably) were as follows.   He was 5 feet 6 and a quarter inches tall, fair complexion, brown hair, no whiskers, brown eyebrows and grey eyes.   His occupation was shoemaker.   He had 2 brothers, Thomas a shoemaker at Topsham, Devon and William a buttonmaker at Ramsbury.   A sister Ann was married to James Dowling a shoemaker at Ramsbury.
 
Peter was baptized 8 Feb 1807 at Chilton Foliatt, Wiltshire, parents Thomas Withers and Ann Osmond, widow, who were married 14 Aug 1804 at Chilton Foliatt.
Peter's wives were
1.    Mary Ann Hobbs dau of William Hobbs and Ann Jeffries who were married at Ramsbury, 28 Apr 1805.
2.   Anne Wade.

Marriage to Anne Wade, 13 May 1836 Peter Withers, convict, bachelor and Anne Wade, spinster, banns, at Parish of St David's, Hobart, Van Diemen's Land.

In 1844 he wrote to Mary Ann and told her was remarried.   Mary Ann wrote to the Home Department in 1847 to enquire where her husband was.   There are other letters to family members.

Other info I found may be of interest in Chiltern Foliatt.......
Marriage 25 Oct 1801 William Osmond, of this parish, and Ann Garlick, widow, of this parish, banns, witnesses, Jos Harper and William Whiting.
Burial, 9 Mar 1796, John Garlick.
25 Dec 1802, burial of William Osmond, 45.
Found no Garlick marriage in Chilton Foliatt.

Hope this helps, I don't know if you had any of this or not

Merry Xmas, Dave :)
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Sunday 17 December 06 13:36 GMT (UK)
Hi Dave

No I did not have all that information, and it is of enormous interest to me, so thank you very much.

It is interesting that Peter Withers and his wife and two children were referred to as a drain on the parish and were therefore removed - I wonder where were the 3 children Mary Ann had before her marriage as they weren't mentioned.  Perhaps they were living with their father George Gwynn.  It's all very intriguing!

I wonder how all the letters came to light, thank goodness they weren't destroyed.

Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Sunday 17 December 06 16:22 GMT (UK)
It was quite common at that time for unemployed people in a strange parish to be moved back to where they had come from.   This, they probably thought, spread the load and ensured to some extent that people didn't move to a 'rich' or 'better' parish in the hope of bettering themselves at others' expense.   It was very unfortunate on those who through no fault of their own became paupers and 'on the parish'.

I was unable to find any information on George Gwynn in Ramsbury or Ogbourne St George.   Perhaps he was the very one I mentioned in my 1st reply at Aldbourne.   I'll check out Aldbourne in the future.

It's remarkable how much information on Peter Withers is available.   If you see the book I mentioned there are actual copies of the order to move from Ramsbury and his marriage in Hobart.   Together with transcriptions of his letters to his brothers and Mary Ann.

Cheers Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Tuesday 19 December 06 20:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Janet
More on George Gwynn of Aldbourne - there seemed to be a number of Gwynns in Aldbourne.

Baptisms
11 Jan 1801 George Gwynn son of George and Sarah (this one could be your George Gwynn)
13 Feb 1774 George Gwynn son of George and Susanna

Marriages
14 Oct 1795 George Gwynn and Sarah Alexander
19 Oct 1767 George Gwynn, mason, and Susanna Leach, sp of Lower Letcombe.

Also another George Gwynn bap 15 Jan 1775 son of Thomas and Mary

Merry Xmas, Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Wednesday 20 December 06 16:11 GMT (UK)
Hello again Dave

Yes, judging by dates, the one born 1801 is the most likely candidate.

You haven't come across his occupation at all have you?  I'm still curious as to why they didn't marry.  One illegitimate child would not be surprising, but the fact that George and Mary Ann had a total of 4 children together over a period of
 many years, including one born after they were both married to different people, is puzzling.  I wonder if she was 'beneath' him classwise and that is why they never married. 

Anyway, I feel fairly confident that you have tracked down the right George, so many thanks.

Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Friday 22 December 06 16:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Janet

It was unfortunate that Aldbourne, as a rule, didn't appear to even put fathers' occupations on the baptism records.   Other parishes often did as a matter of course.   The only occupation was that of 'your' George's grandfather - mason.

I would hesitate to give a reason why they didn't marry.   As you say it may have been a snobby thing or even that there was ill feeling between the families.

Merry Xmas, Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Friday 22 December 06 16:18 GMT (UK)
Hi again, I thought I'd look to see if George Gwynn was around in 1851, but the only one in Wiltshire was his possible father.

1851 census, Aldbourne, 1866/f565/sched 039.   Address Woodsend
Thomas Giles, hd, m, 51, farmer of 15 acres, WIL Aldbourne
M. Giles, wi, m, 52, WIL Aldbourne
George Gwynn, fl, w, 77, parish relief-lab, WIL Aldbourne
Charlotte Small, gd, 10, scholar, HAM Southampton
Joseph Gwynn, sv, 16, ag lab, WIL Aldbourne

Coincidently nearby at Lodge Cottages were a number of unmarried lodgers (no pun intended  ;D) G. Withers, 29:  W.Withers, 16 and M. Withers, 8 all were born in Berkshire.   In the unhelpful Aldbourne way no first names were given.

Another little wrinkle.   Best of luck, Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: kentishmaid on Saturday 23 December 06 17:57 GMT (UK)
Hi Dave

Thanks for the info on George's possible father, every bit of info helps in piecing it all together.

How funny that the lodgers of Lodge cottage were a family of Withers.  Could just be coincidence of course, but you never know...

I need to get myself a decent map of Wiltshire as a lot of these place names are unknown to me.

Janet
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Sunday 24 December 06 08:03 GMT (UK)
Hello Dave and Janet
Wishing you both a very merry Christmas. ;D
Dave have you been able to find the baptism for Thomas an Ann Withers, Peter Withers older brother and sister on the Chilton Foliatt records. I think they may have another mother or that their parents were not married till after their births,
Is there another marriage for Thomas Withers senior.
Cheers from a lovely warm summers day here in New Zealand :)
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Monday 25 December 06 14:17 GMT (UK)
Not yet - record office is closed for holiday  :D
It's on my list if I have a chance to get there before leaving for warmer climes  8)
Merry Xmas, Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Monday 25 December 06 23:30 GMT (UK)
 :)Thank you Dave
Much appreciated.Thomas and Ann Withers had a son William Stone Palk Withers. William then called his oldest son George Stone Withers. Maybe that is a clue to Ann Osmonds maiden name.
We have had a fine Chistmas Day but I have picked up a virus and am feeling seedy. No doubt it will run its course.
Thank you again
Hazel :D
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Thursday 28 December 06 17:33 GMT (UK)
Hi Hazel, sorry to hear you are off colour perhaps I can cheer you up  ;D

I found the following baptisms in Chilton Foliatt
19 May 1805 William George Stone Palk Withers son of Thomas and Ann
8 Feb 1807 Peter Withers
2 Jul 1809 Martha Withers dau of Thomas and Ann
No more

Unable to find out more on Ann Osmond (previous married name Garlick).   There was no previous marriage for her in Chilton Foliat.   No previous marriage for Thomas Withers in Chilton Foliatt, at his marriage to Ann Osmond he was not shown as a widower.

There were a number of Withers BMDs before and after this period in Chilton Foliatt.   Are you interested in them?

Cheers dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Thursday 28 December 06 18:37 GMT (UK)
Hello Dave
Strange how William had all those middle names. William gave his son Stone as a middle name too.
Anything about the Withers from Chilton Foliatt would be most helpfull.I do not haveaccess to the Chilton Foliatt records as they are only available from a Film held in Salt Lake city and the records you are able to access there in Wiltshire.They might come in handy or find something that ties in somewhere. Thomas and Ann must have been baptised in another area.I am only assuming Thomas and Ann Withers, Peters brother and sister were older.
Why is Wiltshire called the Moonrakers Country?
Beautifull sunny day here. 8)
Thank you
Hazel
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Friday 29 December 06 00:05 GMT (UK)
Aha the Moonrakers, an amusing story  :) have a look at http://www.swindonweb.com/life/lifemoon0.htm I go for Devizes myself as that town was definitely on the smugglers trail from the south coast to the Midlands.   The pond is still there.

To be a modern Moonraker you must have been born in the county of Wiltshire, my grandson was born 4 miles outside and therefore can only be an honorary Moonraker as his father is genuine  ;D

I'm not even English :D

I'ts getting late so I'll get on with the Chilton Foliatt mob tomorrow.

Cheers Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Friday 29 December 06 05:22 GMT (UK)
Hello Dave
Thanks for that.I am English by birth but have not lived in my country of birth for over 50 years so possibly would be like a foreigner with a Kiwi accent.  ::)
Where are you from?
Thanks for all the work you are doing.it is so much appreciated.
Cheers from Sunny Hawkes Bay and it really is right now.
It must be summer at last.
One day all the mysteries will be solved. Its like a giany jig saw puzzle.
Bye for now,
Hazel
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Friday 29 December 06 14:10 GMT (UK)
Hi Hazel

I'm originally from the west coast of Wales, but haven't lived there for well over 40 years, the last 33 in Wiltshire.   It's really gloomy here today - low cloud and drizzle.   In Wales they say 'if you can see across the valley, it's a sign of rain, if you can't it's already raining'  :D

Here's more from Chilton Foliatt...........

Baptisms

1.   Children of Thomas and Grase
21 Jan 1742 Thomas Witchen
22 May 1752 Jonathan Wetch

2.   Children of Thomas and Rachel
22 May 1744 Rachel Withers
23 Feb 1745 Elizabeth Withers
28 May 1748 Martha Withers
27 May 1751 Mary Wethers

3.   Children of Robert and Jane
15 Mar 1772 Fanny Withers
18 Nov 1774 Ralph Withers
15 Oct 1776 Hannah Withers
4 Oct 1778 John Withers

1792 (no date) Peter son of (?) Thos and Ann of (?) Culborn Shellingford age 9 years

Marriages
9 Dec 1741 Thomas Withers, otp and Grase Sadler of Froxfield
21 Jun 1843 Thomas Withers, otp and Reachell Garlick of Cheselton

Burials
8 Oct 1771 Sarah Wise Withers
24 Mar 1773 Thomas Withers
30 Jan 1778 Rachel Withers - widow
21 Dec 1778 Robert withers - died of a cancer
31 Jan 1791 William Withers age 97
9 Mar 1796 John Garlick
25 Dec 1802 William Osmond - age 45
17 Nov 1811 Martha Withers

Hope these help, Dave


Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Saturday 30 December 06 04:45 GMT (UK)
Thank you Dave
I have 2 aunties living in Wales. One is in Newport and I am not sure where the other one lives as she returned to Wales from Spain after her husband died last year. They are  my mothers sisters and both married Welsh men.I have cousins in Wales too.
I have another Aunt who lives in Petone,Wellington,New Zealand and an Uncle in The USA. Mum is the oldest at 91.
The aunt in Petone followed us out to New Zealand and married a New Zealander.
Its warmer than it started today but they have had snow today in the South Island and this is summer ???We lit a fire this morning ::)We have a free standing fire box which warms the place up really well.This afternoon it is summer again-how odd.this is not our usual warm summer weather.
Thank you for the information. Somewhere along the way it will all make sense.
I will print it out and save it.
I wonder if the Martha who died in 1811 was Peter Withers sister.How wonderfull to have the records office so close to you.
I am very grateful for all the work you have done.
Happy New Year to you and your family
Cheers Hazel




Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Saturday 30 December 06 18:51 GMT (UK)
You're more than welcome, Hazel.   Say hello to NZ for me for old times sake  ;D
A Happy and Prosprous New Year to you and yours, Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Saturday 30 December 06 22:10 GMT (UK)
Hello Dave
I have just found on a family tree on the internet an Anne Garlick born abt 1800 who married James Dowling of Ramsbury at Chilton Foliatt on the 13th of April 1822. Can you check this out for me please.
Peter Withers had a sister Ann who married James Dowling of Ramsbury and the children add up to those I have.
Is there a baptism for Ann Garlick in Chilton Foliatt in 1800 and possibly a Thomas Osmond or Garlick in 1800-1804 or just before or any other siblings.
I had not thought of Anne and Thomas  having their mothers previous married names before she married Thomas Withers in 1804 but it makes sense.
Well in fact until you found her earlier marriages was not aware that Ann Osmond had been married before.
Sorry to be such a nuisance but this might fill in the gaps and of course makes sense that they possibly were not Thomas's children from a previous marriage but Ann Osmonds prior to her marriage to Thomas.As you said Thomas was not listed as a widower on his marriage to Ann Osmond
Its cool again this morning with rain forcasted for later in the day.
Where is our Summer?.
Cheers Hazel



Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Sunday 31 December 06 16:23 GMT (UK)
Sounds like a good wheeze Hazel  ;D   I'll probably have one more look at the records before leaving UK for a few months.   I've got to get away from the doom and gloom - to say nothing of the weather  ;)

Happy New Year, Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Wednesday 03 January 07 17:34 GMT (UK)
Hi Hazel

Baptisms in Chilton Foliatt
16 Oct 1796 Thomas (?) Toon Clark/Garlick son of Ann Garlick
Difficult to read and he may have had an alias or Clark was the supposed father, don't know
28 Sep 1799 Mary Ann Garlick dau of Ann
28 Sep 1799 Ann, Rebecca and Sarah daus of John and Ann Garlick.   Privately baptised at Topsham Devonshire.

 Marriage in Chilton Foliatt
30 Apr 1822 James Dowling of Ramsbury and Anne Garlick, otp, banns.   Witnesses Jeremiah Goole ? and Sarah Garlick.

Cheers Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Wednesday 03 January 07 20:31 GMT (UK)
Hello Dave
Many thanks. That solves the mystery of who Peter Withers brothers and sisters[Possibly] were. How amazing. Clark may have been Ann Garlick/Osmond/Withers maiden name or as you said another man in her life.
Thomas was said to have lived in Topsam,Devonshire. Peter wrote to him from Tasmania plus to Ann and her husband James Dowling who was related to Mary Ann Hobbs.No doubt you know that.I have been looking on the census for a Thomas Withers. No wonder I did not find him.
Bless you for all your help. This is something I would have not been able to do from here.
Its now on record December was our coldest Decembers for 60 years so we were not imagining it. Still in semi winter clothes in a Hawkes Bay summer,almost unheard of.
I know it is your winter so far colder than our winters in this area.I hope you enjoy your holiday.
by the way my email address is
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So again many many thanks.
Hazel.

Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Wednesday 03 January 07 22:12 GMT (UK)
Hello Dave
I have just found the marriage of John Garlick to Anne Stone 16th June 1788 Topsam Devon.
Rebecca Garlick baptised 6th Decenber 1790 Topsam,Devon
Sarah Garlick baptised 24th March 1793 Topsam, Devon
Ann Garlick baptised 28th June 1789, Topsam, DEvon
Thomas Garlick married Harriet Branscombe 20th September 1919 Topsam, Devon.
Not sure where the Palk comes from but it explains the Stone in William Stone Palk Withers name.
Maybe Thomas is also Thomas Stone Palk Garlick.
This is so amazing
 :)Cheers Hazel
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Thursday 04 January 07 11:04 GMT (UK)
I've often found it only takes a small hint to point to where things happen to open up a whole new branch of the family.
Cheers Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: HazelWiley on Friday 23 March 07 09:33 GMT (UK)
Hello Dave
after a bit of a break
George Gwynn born in 1801 was related to Mary Ann Hobbs through the Alexander family.her grandmother was Rebecca Alexander.George Gwynns mother was Sarah Alexander.So Mary Ann would have known him.
Not exactly first cousins but still related.
It was thought that Mary Ann Hobbs who married Peter Withers was the daughter of William Hobbs and Ann Jefferies but that Mary Ann married a Charles Elford and emigrated to Canada.
My Mary Ann Hobbs was the daughter of Thomas Hobbs and Martha Stagg.
Thomas and William were brothers.They named several of their children the same names.She was a bit older than Peter Withers.
Do you know whothe witnesses were to the marriage of Ann Osmond[Garlick,Stone]and Thomas Withers.
I have no idea who Thomas Withers parents were.
Hazel

Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: davierj on Friday 23 March 07 21:53 GMT (UK)
Hi Hazel
Good to hear from you.   I must admit I'm out of touch with the intricacies of the family after all this time.   Can you let me know what you want me to look up and I'll see what I can do.   

If I've already looked up the Thomas Withers/Ann Osmond marriage I guess I'd have mentioned any witnesses.   As I said let me know what you want.

Hope you are keeping well, I've just returned to wiltshire so just settling back in.

Regards Dave
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: Lesanne on Monday 24 September 07 08:57 BST (UK)
 :) Have been researching the Swing Riots and much information reported in The Times Newspaper.
If you have access to Times Digital. Narrow your search to
1st Nov 1830 - 31 Jan 1831 with the search keyword of 'Riots' only. As 'Swing' hasn't got much of a mention.

It would appear that all of Nov 1830 had the most recorded riots and Jan 1831 had the most court appearences.
But then I'm still reading through the reports.....  :o

Lesanne.
Title: Re: George GWYNN and Mary Ann HOBBS
Post by: LouiseB31 on Tuesday 13 March 18 20:09 GMT (UK)
It's been 11 years so you probably know all this by now, but just for posterity, George Gwyn husband of Mary Ann Hobbs was born 10th May 1797, the son of George Gwyn and Hannah Eyles. He died in Ramsbury in 1826 leaving with her at least three children.

He was buried on the 29th September. This is why she was then free - or necessitated - to marry Peter Wither.

I suspect that the child allegedly baptised in 1835 was actually baptised in 1825 and it is a transcription error. I haven't started looking for the original records yet.
I just started researching for a friend, this is her maternal ancestry.