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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: 'yr un drewllyd' on Monday 11 December 06 00:56 GMT (UK)
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:-\
I've recently become adicted to FH and have been lucky enough to have had 6 of my 8 lines well researched by 2nd cousins who have shared thier info with me. I've managed to get back to the late 1700s on my Pritchard line myself but ..........................................
I've got a bit stuck on my Williams line and it's only just out of living memnory :'( I've joined ancestry and looked at the census but must be doing something wrong as I can't find a soul!
My gt grandfathers Obit in the Myrthyr Express of Dec 5th 1940 has a good write up on him, William williams, aged 60, retied to his native Merthyr, lived at The gables West Grove, Vaynor Parish councilor, manager of Barclays Merthyr and Treharris, past president of the chamber of trade, scout leader, son of the late Mrs Williams of the Globe Hotel, 2 spinster sisters (Gwennie and Lizzie). Also mentioned in the obit is a neice (Miss C Williams ( I know nothing of her, whose daughter she is or where she came from). At some stage he lived at 6 The Walk, Merthyr
I also have a family picutre taken outside the Gwynnes Arms In Cefn Coed? about 1909 above the door is a large sign reading "Williams" and on the back the names of those present, one being Katie Williams. I presume that this is his Mum. I know his Dad was John Williams and was a clerk of sorts
Even with this and more information I'm stuck and can't frind them in any census.
Family tales say that Judge Gwylim Williams (The statue outside Cardiff court house) is an Uncle but I can find no concrete link.
Any ideas?
Diolch,
Phillip
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Hi Phillip
Could this be William...
WALES 1891 census RG12/4442 Folio 86
John Williams Head 46 b Hirwain, Breconshire, Wales...Hauler in coal mine
Lizzy Williams Wife 46 b Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire
Ellen Williams Dau 20 b Hirwain, Glamorgan
Tegwen Williams Son 18 b Hirwain...Brickmaker
William Williams Son 14 b Hirwain...Coal miner
Thomas John Williams Son 11 b Hirwain
Rees Williams 10 b Hirwain
Margaret Williams Dau 6 b Hirwain
Lizzy Catherine Williams Dau 3 b Hirwain
Gwen Williams Dau 1 b Hirwain
3 Tramway, Hirwaun, Glamorgan
Reg Dist: Merthyr Tydfil
Sue
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Many, many thanks for that Sue, but I think not.
William was born between 1880 and 1883 (depending on whether you believe the obit in the Merthyr Express or his marriage certificate) and left Merthyr in 1898 to work in a bank in Gravesend where he met his wife , Theodora Teece. The marriage certificate says he was a bank clerk in London in 1903 and his father, John a cleark of some undecypherable description. They returned to Myrthyr before going to Wrexham, Colwyn Bay and finaly to retire to his beloved Merthyr.
Uncanny that all the names in your Post tie up.
Phillip
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Hi Phillip :D
I think I may have found your William in 1901 - give me a minute and I'll transcribe it for you :)
Prue
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1901 RG13 - 711 - 138 - 18
29 Windmill St, Milton, Gravesend, Kent
Ernest W MANN Head M 29 Plumber and Gas Fitter Kent, Gravesend
Emma MANN Wife M 27 Stafford, Wolverhampton
Elsie MANN Daur 2 Kent, Gravesend
William WILLIAMS Boarder S 18 Bank Clerk Glamorganshire, Merther Tydvil [sic]
Hope that helps somewhat :)
Prue
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;D
that's the fella'!
Thanks for that Prue.
I just ned to find them, William, Elizabeth, Gwenllian and Mum and dad, Kate and John in the 1891 cenus now and that'll get the ball well and truely rolling. It might even show where the misterious neice Miss C Williams comes into the picure as I can't see either of his spinster sisters having a child, you never know though. This genealogy is fun!
Once again thankyou
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Btw, that's a lovely photo of your husbands Gran.
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How about 1891 RG12/4437 Folio 59 Pages 6 & 7
Globe Inn
Gwen(?) Cleam(?) Williams Female 49 - Inn Keeper
Elizabeth Davies 39 sister
Catherine Williams 26 - Daug
Elizabeth Williams 19 - Daug
Gwenllian Williams 15 - Daug
William Williams 8 - Son
Mary Davies 40 - Servant
Annie Hughes 14 - Servant
Wendi :)
PS on Ancestry Head of House is transcribed as "Gwen Clean William"
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;D
that's them, that's them the Globe, Merthyr ;D ;D
Thankyou very much.
I'm now confused though. I have his obit' saying his mother as kate and this has his nother as Gwen? This sugets that his mother is his Grandmother! Do you know how I can obtain the birth certificates of these Williams's?
More to the point, how did you find them? What am I doing wrong?
Wendi, I am in your debt :-*
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Croeso i Rootschat!
I was trying to put up the 1891 results (which, in my case, came off a CD produced by the Glamorgan Family History Society) but had trouble with the computer and was beaten to it :)
William's mother was actually Gwenllian, she was listed as head of household, which suggests she was a widow, though she is listed simply as married. She was born at Drefynnog, Breconshire.
So was Elizabeth Davies, a dressmaker, who was said to be 'deaf and dumb'.
Of the three daughters, Catherine and Gwenllian worked as barmaids, while Elizabeth was a dressmaker. Catherine was born at Cwmdare, the others in Merthyr Tydfil. William was down as a scholar.
Hope this fills in a few more details.
Gareth
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1881 census RG11/5313 Folio 37
John Williams Head 42 ..Licensed Victualler
Gwenllian Williams Wife 39
Catherine Williams Dau 16
Thomas Williams Son 14
Elizabeth Williams Dau 9
Gwenllian Williams Dau 5
Elizabeth Davies 29
Globe Inn 37 High Street, Merthyr Tydfil
Sue
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Bore da!
Diolch,
I posted my subscription to GlamorganFHS this morning, so I should be able to acess thier files in the New Year. Thanks for the extra information.
It seems that every question answered asks anther 10. I can see whay this is so addictive. i'm getting no work done ............................ again
Williams obit states "son of Mrs Kate Williams formerly of the Globe Hotel", maybe there's a skeleton in the closet somewhere.
Hywl
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You don't actually need to be a member of Glam FHS to buy their CDs and booklets - check their website for a full list.
As for Gwenllian and Kate - maybe she was simply known as Kate for some reason? Or somebody confused his mother with his sister Catherine?
Gareth
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If you want to see what the Globe looked like, here's your chance
http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/pub_pics3.htm#Ye%20Old%20Globe
Gareth
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Many thanks for that Sue. It explains where the "Miss C Williams, neice", at his funeral come into it. She must have been his brother's daughter. I wasn't aware of that he had a brother or a sister other than Lizzie and gwennie.
Just out of interest, what language did they speak?
I saw that Gareth. I think my wife is getting me a couple of the discs for Christmas.
thanks for the link. I'd seen that site before but I didn't know which one of the three Globes in Merthyr it was. But with your, Sues and Wendi's information it confirms that is the one. Is it still there?
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RG10 Piece 5396 Folio 7 Page 9 This is the family in 1871, same address
Lower Merthyr Tydfil
37 High Street
John Williams 32 publican
Gwellian Williams 29
Catherine Williams 6
Thomas Williams 4
William Williams 2
If you need any certs for your family I would contact Merthyr Register Office and give them all info you know. They will look for the right cert and not charge if they cannot find it. I enclosed my tele number and they rang me to see if i was happy with what they found before posting and cashing my cheque.
http://www.merthyr.gov.uk/Home/Local+Services/Registrars+Births+Deaths+Marriages/
Cas
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Unfortunately, the Globe has gone, lost to the same march of 'progress' which has trampled on the Great Western Hotel, a few yards further down High Street, where my mother grew up and I lived briefly as a child. That's been replaced by a budget shoe shop.
Gareth
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More to the point, how did you find them? What am I doing wrong?
Hiya, 'yr un drewllyd' ;D ;D ;D
No mystery, if I hadn't found it one of the others would have. 1901 census he said he was 18, so in 1891 he was 8, born 1883 Merthyr or Merthyr-Tydfil, there were only 5 William Williams' to look at!
I echo Cas' comments - always apply to the local registry office where ever possible they have far more info available to them than the online GRO, and are usually very helpful.
As Publicans of longstanding there should be records of them at http://www.glamro.gov.uk (Glamorgan Records Office) also there is quite alot on Rootschat regarding the Licensed Victualer trade......I think it might be on the "Occupations" board - or perhaps one of the others can remember where it is..........Gareth ???
"Cheers" :D
Wendi :)
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I'm just wondering if the John Williams from the thread below this one is the same John Williams?
Yes, progress is a funny old thing. Has the whole building gone or has it changed use?
thanks for that Cas,
Isn't that a little strange from the 1971 census, William Williams born about 14 years before my William Williams to the same parents. Maybe Catherine "Kate" Williams had an ilegitimate child when she was 18 and named him after a dead baby brother?
I'm thinking that there is something fishy going on here, maybe I'm just being silly!
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Thanks for the tips Wendi :)
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Yes, progress is a funny old thing. Has the whole building gone or has it changed use?
I'm not sure what might be left. I haven't been to Merthyr for a while, but speaking from memory I think the half-timbered bit may still be there. Perhaps someone who lives there might reply. Alternatively, if you're planning to get in touch with the Merthyr Register Office the helpful ladies there will know - their office is only 100 yards or so away.
Gareth
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He is down as son. Did not post all details as thought you would view the image.
I would think that the first William died, and the second (your granddad )was named after him, as was in many the case.
You can also obtain burial records from, Merthyr.gov, via email. They did not charge me, but on the website they say there is a charge. The email given me by Aberdare Library is
Debbie.Hughes@merthyr.gov.uk
I would try it, the Globe address or 37 High St, would be a good indicator that you have the right Williams family.
Good luck, Gwenllian is still alive in 1901 at the Globe with her three daughters unmarried.
Cas
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Just for the record William is my Grandad, his son Gwylim is my Grandad. I didn't realise that was a common practice to name a a child after 1 that had had died.
Many thanks for the tips and adresses. I know sop much more than I did when I woke up this morning.
Thanks/Diolch
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Yer but I bet you haven't earned your crust today! That's Rootschat for you :D
Have you been able to access the census pages on Ancestry via the references everyone has given you today? It'll be worth going back thro' them and giving all the info some thought.
Catherine was born at Cwmdare
Could the parents have been married in Cwmdare......
Wendi :)
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Nope, I've not done a lot realy. There's a pile wood waiting to be chopped and the gunea pigs haven't even gone out ................. I can blame those 2 on the weather! I've had to do the Christmas cards tonight and I'm in at work tomorrow
I feel there's something wrong with the way I search. How hard can it be!
Using the references that you've given me though I've got the details all printed off and filed away.
I was interested to see that although they ran a pub/hotel in the centre of an industrial city they didn't put "both" on the language section of the census in1891 but Welsh. they obviously spoke English to have written "Welsh". I'd been told they were very nationaliststic. My Grandad only ever spoke Welsh to me even though he ran a bank in Wembley!
I've a lunch date with his 98 yearold sister-in-law next week on the Llyn peninsula. Hopefully they'l be somone there to translate!
thanks for all your help today.
Any tips on hat to say to the grt aunt next week?
Nos da
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My Grandad only ever spoke Welsh to me even though he ran a bank in Wembley!
You must treasure that, he was obviously a wise man ;)
A lunch date with a 98 year old in law - I'd give my eye teeth for one of those! Take your camera and some form of recording devise - seriously - obviously ask her is she minds being recorded, but in the moment much is missed, and it's convenient to have something to go back over.
The camera is not just for beautiful photos of you and her, it's for snapping anything that she puts in front of you, heirlooms, documents etc. If she objects to the recordings scribble hard, even off the hand statement can hold good in the future.
Have a lovely time together!
Wendi - (giving her eye teeth) ;D
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Hi Wendi,
Sometimes you don't appreciate things until they are no longer there! :(
Unfortunately my Great Uncles wife is not well and the lunch has been postponed until "Sometime in the new year". I do hope she's alright.
My grandad, and his brother (Her husband) fell out in 1965 and never spoke again. Her son tracked down my Mum from the anouncement in the Telegraph of my dads passing. We've yet to have the rebuilding of bridges but have spoken on the phone a few times.
I was fortunate enough to have a 102 year old relative until earlier this year. She too, was not a direct relative but (wait for it) my great Aunts "partner" since 1923! My great Aunt died in 2000.
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Just goes to show it's been going on since time immemorial!
Family 102 years old - You come from a long lived family - but your Welsh - no more to say ;)
Her son tracked down my Mum from the announcement in the Telegraph of my dads passing. We've yet to have the rebuilding of bridges but have spoken on the phone a few times.
Off the top of my head - your cousin - keep the contact!
I really hope your Great Aunt is well enough to visit in the new year, bet she's got lots for you, but if not, that is the way of things :-\
All good wishes,
Wendi :)