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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: jericho on Friday 08 December 06 20:36 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help I am trying to find Sophia Dewar on the 1851 census. Sophia was born in Perth about 1832 and in 1841 is living in Seagate Dundee age 9 with her parents John and Mary Ann Dewar by 1851 both her parents have died. Sophia married in Ingergowrie in 1854.
jericho
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could this be her?
1851 census: murraygate street, dundee
david dewar...head...age 51...shoemaker
ann...wife...age 50
sarah...dau...age 20...bootbinder
mary...dau...age 18...steam loom weaver
catherine...dau...age 16...steam loom weaver
david...son...age 12
all born perth.
Joe
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Hi Joe
Will keep this one for future reference, but it is not Sophia, her parents were John and Mary and they had both deceased by 1851. And I don't recognize any of the siblings name. Thanks for looking anyway. I think Sophia must have be transcribed in the 1851 by another name.
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Since Sophia was so young you may find that she was taken in by another part of the family.
My grandmother was taken in by family that only had a relationship through marriage many years earlier, to hers. And yes, I had great difficulty finding her, since her name, Baxter, had been mistranscribed as 'Barter' in the census.
good luck.
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yes i agree, so it is now down to trying to trace the brother's or sister's of john, that's why i posted this one living with david.
Joe
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Hi Joe & Pari Passu
I also think that it is possible that the chldren could have been taken in by other family members or placed in an orphanage or even living with older siblings, these are Sophia siblings still possibly living in Scotland at the time were
James 1820, Janet 1820, David 1827, John 1830, Jane 1830, Robert 1836, Thomas 1839 and Alexander 1844.
Thank-you both for your help
jericho
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hi pal just had a wee scout about the 1851 cenus for sophie's brother's, it is very very difficult as they certaianly do not look like there are all together in the one household.
alexander would be only 7 in the 1851 census and thomas 12, i honestly thought i could find them together! no such luck!
sorry pal, when sophie married in 1854 was any her family witness?
Joe
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Hi Joe
I have no idea who the witnessess were as I haven't seen a copy of the marriage cert. May have to rethink this one and try and find her older siblings as they may be able to shed some light on the family. Thanks for your help it was most appreciated.
jericho
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Maybe she was living with her husband to be and his family ?? ::) ::) ::)
Do you know his name Jericho ??
Annie :)
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Hi Annie
She married George Prain, he was born abt 1832, in 1841 he is living with his sister Agnes and the Margaret Stewart in Dargie Liff & Benvie- Angus I believe this is George's grandmother. Can't find his parents at this stage. Hope this helps
jericho :) :)
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Jericho
I wonder if this is George with mother in 1851:
George Prain 17, b. Liff, Forfarshire, son of Hellen, labourer
Agnes Stewart 51, b. Longforgan, Perthshire, sister to Hellen
Hellen Stewart 56 b. Longforgan, Perthshire
Address: Mylnefield Feus, Longforgan, Perthshire
Regards.
Monica
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Hi Monica
It certainly looks as if it may be George, and it looks as if his mother never married or if she did it appears she never took her husband's name well looks as if George and Sophia are not living together now the question is where is she hiding!!! Thanks for your help.
jericho
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Jericho
All George's family together in 1841, except for father, all showing as born in the County:
Helen Stewart, 45-49
Margaret Stewart, 75-79
Agnes Stewart, 40-44, H L W (hand loom weaver)
George Prain, 15-19
Agnes Prain, 8
Address: Dargie, Liff and Benvie, Angus
You will probably need to check Helen's DC (assuming she died post 1855) to see whether she shows as married to George and Agnes's father. Or view the original 1851 Census image on SP which will show her marital status.
Based on Helen's 1851 Census entry, this could be her birth/christening entry on IGI:
HELEN STEWART Birth: 19 MAR 1794/ Christening: 22 MAR 1794 Longforgan, Perth, Scotland
Parents: Father: PETER STEWART Mother:MARGARET ANDERSON
Regards.
Monica
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i am really really stumped with the children of john and maryann dewar!!
i cannot find them in a british census anywhere!!
i was working on david 1827 and came across a census in america in 1880, do you know if the family have american links?
1880 census; cincinnati, ohio
david...head...age 57...blacksmith foreman...born scotland
ellen...wife...age 53...born ireland
robert...son...age 20...works in car shop...born kentucky
andrew J...son...age 18...works in shoe shop
jennie...dau...age 17
annie...dau...age 14
john...son...age 11
thomas...son...age 9
all born ohio, unless stated otherwise.
i know it is a bit of a long shot but.......
Joe
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Hi Monica
Thanks I did have the 1841 census but didn't realize at the time that George's mother was also present, as it didn't state relationships. I'm not sure about Helen's birth parents will keep an open mind on that one as the name Anderson does not appear with any of Sophia and George's children's names. Each of their eight children have a grandparents surname as a second name, so if nothing else that has helped me abit.
jericho
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Hi Joe
Like you I have had a lot of trouble finding the children of John and Mary Ann Dewar, Mary Ann their daughter emigrated to NZ in 1842 so I have accounted for her. James unknown.... Janet married .... Urquart nothing else known. David unknown, Jane unknown, John died 1860 in Invergowrie, Shopia have quiet a bit except where she was in 1851, George 1834-1835. Robert married Catherine Scott in Dundee in 1868 he died 1871. Thomas also went to NZ so I have most of his details, Alexander died 1864 in Longforgan. But much of it is still mystery and was really hoping to find them in 1851 but I think they are probably all sitting back and laughing at me. Thanks for your help you have all been great with your help and suggestions.
jericho
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Jericho
Something else to mull over.......re George's mother. Just had a look at the IGI entries for George and Sophia's children. They certainly liked the use of middle names/surnames!
Given they married in 1854, their first born daughter looks to be:
AGNES STEWART PRAIN Birth: 14 JUN 1855 Longforgan, Perth, Scotland
.............so, maybe George's mother wasn't Helen but sister Agnes? Helen and Agnes are both alive and well in 1881:
Agnes, 80, unmarried, formerly ag. lab., b. Longforgan
Ellen, 87, unmarried, formerly ag. lab., b. Longforgan
Address: McGavins Land, Longforgan, Perth
I can see Sophia's death entry in 1898 in Dundee. I can't however see any entry for George. Have you managed to find his death cert?
Regards.
Monica
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Jericho
George's mother was Helen ;) He reported her death in 1884 in Longforgan. Her parents were as I posted earlier, Peter Stewart, weaver, and Margaret Anderson. If you do a parent search on IGI, you will see a number of children for the couple including a sister Agnes which fits in age to the Agnes we have living with Helen.
George's sister Agnes married an Alexander Kinmond(t) in 1846:
AGNES PRAIN Marriages: Spouse: ALEXANDER KINMONT
Marriage: 01 AUG 1846 Liff Benvie And Invergowrie, Angus, Scotland
Agnes died in 1886 in Dundee, parents James Prain, weaver, and Helen Stewart both deceased.
Regards.
Monica
............still can't find Sophia for you though in 1851 :D
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Hi Monica
Wow, you have been busy, George left Sophia in abt 1887 and took off to South Africa with a married woman he doesn't seem to figure in the family again he died in Durban in 1916. One of his sons later also emigrated to South Africa but I have no idea if they were in contact. Have had contact in the past with a person connected to the Dewar family in Scotland and George seems ( even today) not to popular within the family. Thanks with all your marvelous help it is most appreciated. As I haven't looked at George's family until now.
jericho
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Hi Jericho and Monica,
Well done Monica!
Sorry, I am no help in finding Sophia. Just cannot find her under any variation in spelling. She is very elusive, but no doubt will be around somewhere.
Going back to Helen Stewart's family, both father Peter and Mother Margaret seem to be buried in Longforgan.
1830 - January 11 - Peter Stewart, Weaver in Dargie, a married man, aged 73, was buried.
1850 - Margaret Stewart, wife of the late Peter Stewart, Weaver, Mylnefield aged 85 was buried - Anderson
http://members.aol.com/ori3530158/ori35.htm/Page32.html
Regards,
Dorothy
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Hi Dorothy
Thanks for the link and also the death information, I am coming to believe that at the moment I'm meant to find out more about George and his family than I am about Sophia so she will be found when she is meant to. Anyway thanks everyone for all your help.
jericho
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Jericho
When you say John and Mary Ann had died by 1851, was this before or after the census?
I think I have found the family in 1851 :D John Snr not there so Mary probably would show as widow on the original image. Surname horribly mistranscribed ...surprise surprise! Dewar to Adrurer:
Mary Adrurer 56, b. Montrose, Forfarshire (b. 1792-96)
Janet Adrurer 30, b. Edinburgh (b. 1817-21)
John Adrurer 23, tailor, Old Mildmin (meldrum?), Aberdeen (b. 1827-31)
Jean Adrurer 20, reeler, b. Perth (b. 1831)
Sophia Adrurer 18, reeler, b. Dundee (b. 1832)
Alexr Adrurer 14, scholar, b. Dundee
Robert Adrurer 13, Revcas (occupation?), b. Dundee (b. 1836)
Thos Adrurer no age or birth place showing on the index
Address: 28 Princes St, Dundee, Angus
The birth years I've put in brackets correspond to their entries in the 1841 census index, as you can see, a good fit. Something has gone slightly array on the transcription of the entries for Alexander and Thomas, you would have to look at the original image to determine what their individual entries should actually be.
Phew, that was bugging me! I know Joe has also put the time in trying to find them also. Team effort ;)
If it's not them, I think I'll :'(
Regards.
Monica
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By George !! ............ I think you've got it Monica !!
I hope Jericho thinks so too !! :D :D
You and Joe have been relentless with this Sophia .... I tried too and couldn't find nothin " !!!!!
Annie :)
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WELL DONE, WELL DONE, it must be them surely!!
a check of the 1861 census says that there is no adrurer's living in scotland, surely it is a 1851 transcription error.
i may be able to sleep tonight!!
will wait to see what jericho thinks
Joe
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As always, a team effort ;)
Monica
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Fantastic work everyone I believe that you all may have finally cracked the disapperence of Sophia and also found her family as well as her mother (my 3rd ggrandmother) so very well done. I was told by a Dewar contact that Mary wasn't on the 1851 census and that she had already died. Just goes to show that you shouldn't believe all that you hear. I now have a place of birth not only for Mary but for most of the children as well. A big thank-you to all who contributed to this post as your time work and effort are most appreciated.
hope you all have a great christmas
jericho
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Hi Jericho,
Here is a copy of the OPR
for George Prain and Sophia Dewar.
Dundee August 1854
George Prain, Weaver and Sophia
Dewar dau. Of John Dewar.
Married 28th August 1854
This is a copy of the 1851 Dundee
Census for the Dewar family.
Dundee – 282/59/18
100 – 28 Princes Street
Mary A. Dewar Head. Wid. 56 Born F.Montrose
Janet Dewar Dau. 30 Born Edinburgh
John Dewar Son. 23 Tailor Born Abrd. Old Meldrum
Jean Dewar Dau. 20 Reeler Born Perth
Sophia Dewar Dau. 18 Reeler born F. Dundee
Robert Dewar Son. 13/15? Reeler? Born F. Dundee
Thom? Dewar ??
Alexr. Dewar Son. 7 Scholar Born F. Dundee
Thomas has been “squashed”
into the line above Alexander. Can’t read
anything about him.
Also there is a death in the Dundee Howff Burial Index
which might be John Dewar (father)
Name: Dewar John
Burial Date: 10th September, 1849
Age at Death: 57
Occupation: Old Soldier, Pensioner and Tailor
Cause of Death: Effects of Intoxication
Last Address: Vault
Happy Christmas.
Regards,
Dorothy
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Could be off on a tangent...again but this is what I have came up with. I started by accepting George being born in 1831 not 1832 as in notes, and I may have strayed on from there, as you do. oops as i do.
Parents Thomas Prain and Betty Kirkcaldy had children:-
Euphame Jack Prain b 31 Oct 1815 c 13 Nov 1815
Robert Prain b 14 May 1820 c 04 Jun 1820
Thomas Prain b 07 Aug 1822 c 18 Aug 1822
David Prain b 30 Sep 1824 c 03 Oct 1824
Mary Prain b 09 Mar 1826 c 12 Mar 1826
Alexander Prain b 15 May 1829 c 17 May 1829
George Prain b 18 Jul 1831 c 07 Aug 1831
William Prain b 29 Aug 1837 c 13 Aug 1837
John Prain b 15 Nov 1833
All b & c at Inchture Perth
George Prain m Sophia Dewar 28 August 1854 at Dundee, Angus
Their children: -
Agnes Stewart Prain b 14 Jun 1855 Longforgan Perth
Elisabeth Walker Prain b 25 Jan 1857 Longforgan Perth
Wilhelmina Fenton Prain b 22 Jan 1862 Longforgan Perth
Mary Ann Christie Prain b 17 Jul 1864 Liff Benvie & Invergowrie Angus
Euphemia Steel Prain b 09 May 1867 Liff Benvie & Invergowrie Angus
Stewart Smith Prain b 09 Jan 1870 Liff Benvie & Invergowrie Angus
Alice Macdonald Prain b 31 Oct 1874 Dundee
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Hi Dorothy
Re the 1851 census, you have confirmed what I thought, that Thomas and Alexander had been crossed over in terms of info. Good to see from the original entry that Alexander is showing as age 7 as he would be. As for John father...effects of intoxication :o 8) You are a minefield of info re Dundee records!
Tidybooks, we have I think confirmed the parents for George. He reported his mother Helen's death in 1884. His sister Agnes's DC also confirmed parents as James Prain and Helen Stewart.
Regards all.
Monica :)
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Hi Monica and Jericho,
Just wondering if that John Dewar could be Sophia's father. The occupation showing Tailor coincides with son John's occupation. Forgot to put in that John Dewar (father) was born Foss in Perthshire.
Also if he was a soldier, that would account for the children being born "all over the place"! I'll check the Howff film after Christmas and see if it says anything else. The Index is not complete.
On Agnes Stewart Prain's 1855 birth certificate, it shows Sophia's birth place as Perth. Jericho, if you don't have a copy, pm me with your email address and I'll send it to you.
Think that's about the lot for just now. Bye,
Dorothy
http://tayvalleyfhs.org.uk/resources/howff.shtml
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Hi Dorothy
Yes you are certainly spot on with John Dewar and his death in Sept 1849, from the effects of Intoxication. And John was certainly a Solider and Tailor so full marks again. I would be very interested if when looking at the Howff film you could check for a daughter Mary Ann born abt 1824 I have not be able to find out where she was born or connect her with John and Mary Ann Dewar as she was not living with them in 1841. Mary Ann emigrated in 1842 to NZ, her address given at the time was the same as John and Mary Dewar living in Seagate in the 1841 census and her death certificate has her parents listed as David and Mary Christie, who were infact her grandparents and the parents of Mary born 1796.
Thjank-you for all your help it is much appreciated.
jericho
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Hi tidybooks
The information for Thomas Prain and Betty Kirkcaldy was much appreciated, and who knows it may prove useful as my researches advances as the children names are certainly very similar to those of George and Sophia's that there may possibly be some kind of connection. Thanks
jericho
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To all who have contributed to this post, you have certainly helped me out with so much new information and for that I am extremely greatfull, where else but on Rootschat would you get people so willing to go that extra mile to help out others researching from afar. Thanks everyone for the fantastic effort. :) :) :)
jericho
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Hi Dorothy
Have just managed to look briefly at the link for Tay Valley Family History Society will put it in with my other favourites as it looks as if it will be very useful. Thanks
jericho
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Hi there!
I'm new to all this, but so excited to see this old thread, as i'm related to Sophia Dewar, her daughter Euphemia Steel Payne (nee Prain) is my granny's granny and i wanted to add that on Euphemia's death certificate (she died in 1947) her mother, is noted as Elenora, Sophia Prain nee Sophia Dewar. Adding to her mystery!?!
This was a brilliant read & find. Including all the info on George too as I could not find his death cert and now i know why!
Jericho - we are related?!?! I look forward to exploring more of your family tree!
happy researching
Kelly
Happy researching
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Hi Kelly
Welcome to Rootschat, yes we are related, as John and Mary Dewar are my 3x grandparents and their daughter Mary is my 2 x greatgrandmother she went to New Zealand in 1842 and married soon after. Years, later her brother Thomas arrived and settled in New Zealand, as well as Sophia's daughter Wihelmina Fenton Prain.
If you post on this forum 2 more times we will be able to private message each other and exchange emails and more information.
Do you have any ideas who John's parents are, as they have been a bit of a stumbling block.
jericho
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heyyyyyy,
small world! my mum is now in zealand! And her cousin too
i haven't got further than sophia yet, i just put euphemia
in google and found this archive, but i can have a look on
scotlands people, they had so many kids back then, it can
be mind boggling. So your granny x2 is my granny x3
sister? i have prob got that so wrong, lol
i wondered how to pm - but now i know...
still excited!
kelly
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Kelly
I do have the names of John and Mary's children, however I haven't been able to follow them all as yet. Mary my 2x greatgrandmother had 9 children so there are many descendants living in New Zealand and Australia. And Thomas had at least 10 children as well so he carried the Dewar name to New Zealand.
jericho
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Hi jericho
I am a NZ relation. My great grand father was Thomas Dewar who married Barbara Barclay. They arrived in NZ 1874.
Heta
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Hi Heta
Welcome to Rootschat, my 3x great grandmother was Mary Dewar a sister of your great grandfather Thomas, Mary arrived in Nelson in 1842 and married Joseph Andrews of Nelson. I am a descendant of Mary through my mothers side of the family. I was born and raised in New Zealand, however I have been living in Australia for a few years now. I would be interested in exchanging information about our family but before we can do that, you will need to post twice more on Rootschat.
jericho
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Hi jericho
Did Mary come to NZ on her own? I have a copy of the 1841 census so I didn't realise that there was an older sister Mary.
Heather
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Hi Heather
Yes, Mary did travel on her own, she unfortunately was not living with her parents in 1841, and I have had a struggle connecting her to her parents John and Mary Dewar, and it wasn't until I got her death certificate that I was able to connect her to the family, as the daughter she was living with when she died put her mother's Mary Christie's parent names instead of John and Mary Dewar, so that helped confirm her for me and also gave me her grandparents.
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Hi jerico
Have you had any contact with the family of Thomas Dewar? There seem to be a lot of us.
Heather
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Hi Heather
No contact what so ever. Have sent you a PM.
jericho