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George and Marie Frey emigrated from Germany to England sometime in the 1880's. They lived in the Manchester area and had six children, daughter Alice married my grandfather. She died of the Spanish flue epidemic a day after the war finished leaving him to return from the trenches as a widower with two children, born 1916,1917. Although they are still alive they recall very little of the Frey family and are sure some emigrated to the States due to the high anti german feelings of the time.
Finally , after long searches I have a member of the Frey family who emigrated to the USA. Hilda Marie Frey age 17 arrived in New York on the 14 Dec 1912 aboard the Mauretania..The ships manifest log/immigration form has some great details but the main interest is that it lists her as going to her aunt in Brooklyn. A Mrs Lehman , 352 Quincy St , Brooklyn.
So the query is where would I research from here? When it comes to chasing family in the States, I really don't know where to start.
Just in case anybody is wondering , my grandfather remarried in 1924 which explains where I come into the picture.
Thanks Richard
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Hi Richard: Your next step is to find Hilda Marie Frey in the U.S. at a later date, most likely in the 1920 U.S. census. I have sporadic access to Ancestry.com, but I'm sure someone will see this and do a lookup for you.
In the meantime, I found an Adolf Frey, age 66 arriving with his family (wife, daughter, and son) in New York on board the Hannover on April 21, 1922. Though they embarked at Bremen, Germany, they say their last place of residence was Manchester.
They were going to stay with Adolf's sister, a Mrs. Lehmann (two n's on the manifest), who lived at 357 Madison St., in Brooklyn (note the sameness of the house number but the difference in street names). I don't think this is a coincidence. I looked at Yahoo Maps for Brooklyn, NY and the two streets are within 4 blocks of each other.
Seems that Adolf Frey and family were from the German side of the family. Perhaps other Freys came to visit--or stay--also. I got lucky finding Adolf Frey--he was at the head of the alphabet and Manchester was listed in the search results.
Regards,
John
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Hi Richard
I have possibly found Hilda in the 1920 census, enumerated as Hilda Fray. Details are:
Engert Avenue, Brooklyn Assembly District 15, Kings, New York
Head of household, Frederick G Brewninger ? (transcribed as Brenninger), age 39, immigration year 1895, naturalized 1904, born Germany as were both his parents, occupation Iron (Stoker?) Iron Foundry
Wife, Elizabeth, age 34, born New York, both parents born Germany
Cousin, Hilda M Fray, age 24, immigration year 1912, Alien, born England, both her parents born Germany, occupation Stenographer Clothing House
Boarder, George F S?aur ? (transcribed as Shaw), age 34, immigration year 1915, Pa, born England, both parents born Germany, occupation Motorman City Railroad
I haven't found her in 1930 as yet, plus I have looked at the 1930 census for the Adolf that John found in the passenger lists without any luck at the moment.
I have looked at the "Italian Genealogical Group" website for a marriage but again unfortunately the only two likely ones would have married in the 1930's which wouldn't help us for the 1930 census.
I will try some more to see what I can find.
Agnes
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Thanks to all for such quick replies. I'm just trying to take it all in.
Interesting that on Hilda's immigration papers she is going to her aunt Mrs Lehman , then Adolf Frey seems to be visiting the same person, while Hilda has moved to stay as a cousin with Frederick and Elizabeth.
It's great that the Americans allow you to search later census papers while here in the uk we are stuck with 1901 for another six years! Can one research BMD's in the States?
Richard.
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Ok Richard
I do like to get in there and certainly do not like to be beaten ;D ;D ;D ;D
I have found your family in the 1930 census and the Adolf (with wife Marie, son Reginald and daughter Magdelena) that John found was the link. (This searching is soooooooo based on "feelings" and I could sense that John felt that Adolf and his family were in some way a good link 8) )
So I have spent the morning trying to find that link and having looked at Hilda's family in the 1901 England census and noted that Adolf and George were born about the same time. Then looked at the Lancashire Birth index and found that Reginald and Magdelina were both born in Chorley, Lancashire as was Hilda (Marie Hilda)
Well, based on this I searched for a George Frey and got a Yipee moment when I also saw Hilda married to George Shaw ( the George who was a boarder in 1920 ? ;D)
I will give all the details from the 1930 census
Living at 10457 89th Avenue, Queens, Queens, New York
Head, George Frey, Half owns home, $14000, has a Radio, age 72, married at age 24, born Wurtenberg Germany as were both parents, immigration year 1922, PA, occupation Porter Hosiery Co.
Wife, Marie, age 68, born Germany both parents born Germany, immigration year 1922, Al
Son, Reginald, age 26, born England, immigration year 1922, NA, occupation Mechanic Sports Goods Co.
Daughter, Gladys, age 24, born England, immigration year 1922, NA
Boarder, Earnest Trump, age 29, born Wurtenberg Germany, both parents born Germany, immigration year 1926, PA, occupation Mechanic Garage
Head, George F Shaw, half owns home, $14000, age 44, married at age 37, born Liverpool England, both parents born Germany, immigration year 1916, NA, occupation Instructor Railroad
Wife, Hilda, age 34, married at age 27, born Manchester England, both parents born Germany, immigration year 1912, NA
Son, George, age 4 and 6 months, born New York
Son, Rolf, age 1 and 1 month, born New York
The Frey's arrived 21st April 1922 and I have found this marriage on the Italian Genealogy Group's website, http://www.italiangen.org/
George F Shaw, 25th June 1922, Kings County, certificate number 7328
No brides name unfortunately but looks like a good possibilty (maybe the Frey's arrived for the wedding 8))
Hope this helps
Best wishes
Agnes
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Hi Richard and Agnes: I had written a longer reply, but my computer decided to crash and I opted to reconstruct this short but sweet version.
Agnes: Excellent work in finding Hilda and family in the 1920 and 1930 censuses.
Richard: BMDs in the U.S. are held at the state and/or local level. New York City's BMDs are held by two city agencies, based on year of event: the Dept. of Health and Mental Hygiene and the Dept. of Records' Municipal Archives. Here's a link to New York City's home page. You'll find a pull-down agency menu on the left of the page.
http://www.nyc.gov
When I did the Ellis Island search for Freys, there were almost 2,000, including a goodly number of Adolfs! Happy hunting! :o :o :o
Regards,
John
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I would just like to add Richard, that your family story regarding the reasons for moving to the US is reasonable as I found George Shaw's passenger arrival in the US (he travelled with his brother john)
His father's address is shown as Stobs Camp, Scotland, which appears to be an internment camp during WWI. I have googled it and found a little information.
Agnes
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Hi John
I just knew that your finding Adolf was the major clue, so once I realised that, the rest was easy ;D ;D ;D
Best wishes
Agnes
PS: Richard, I am happy to carry on the search but obviously do not want to without your sayso! So please let me know if you have enough info :)
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Richard and Agnes: I modified my previous reply a bit. Take another look.
Agnes: You work very quickly. Perhaps I should get you on the case of my great-grandfather Robert Hendry from Scotland! HE emigrated to Massachusetts in 1882 and I can't link him back to Scotland. no matter how hard I try. Nothing fits! Sorry for the intrusion of my own story, Richard.
Regards,
John
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Richard: I live in New York City, but I daren't go near a city office for fear of never emerging again! Actually I have no experience with New York City records. But there is a German genealogy group active in the New York City area. Here's a link. I'm sure they can at least give you guidance.
You might want to look for naturalization papers for some of the Freys.
http://www.germangenealogygroup.com/
Regards again,
John
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Hi John
I do know exactly what you mean regarding "Adolf Frey", I searched at first without the date of arrival to look for clues and then realised the work involved, so I do reiterate that you made my search sooo much easier. The length of time it took me was in trying to work it out was the obstacle :-[
Please do give more details regarding Robert Hendry, it would be a pleasure and a joy to give it a go ;D
Agnes
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Hi John, I think that I have found them in 1900, if the Robert born about 1857 and wife Marian born about 1859, living at 463 Hampshire Street, Massachusetts is yours!
I will have a delve and see what I come up with.
Agnes
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Again many thanks for everybodys replies and work.
I'm staggered by so much new information all at once, it's taking a while to assimilate it all and check out that site you recommended John.
By all means if you wish to chase more, Agnes , please do.
Although I have subscriptions to UK databases, I start to run up against alot of sites wanting money for US records and it isn't an area I have a great knowledge of and am hesitant to splash out just yet. If I can return any help in kind with UK census look ups please don't hesitate to ask.
I was surprised to see two more children post 1900 .
I'm not surprised you found a basis for the tales of anti german feeling Agnes, this started long before the war as German industry started to effect English jobs and reached fever pitch by the time of the WW1. Another family tale is that while my father was in the trenches , stones were put through his windows due to having a wife of German ancestry.
Richard
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Well, I had to start looking at the passenger lists :) they are full of interesting bits from height to colour of eyes and tattoes :D
However a slight puzzle here , looking at the Frey family arriving 21 April 1922 on the SS hanover it lists Adolf,age 65 Marie age 60 and children Reginald and Magdelina (16+18) as detained then apparently allowed in . However it looks like Adolf changes his name to George by the 1930 census!
So now I'm trying to work out how George and Marie Frey (1857 Steinbach Ger. and 1861 Mergentheim Ger) parents of Hilda Marie relate to Adolf /George and Marie Frey in the 1930 census.
Adolf / George said to come from Wurtenburg. Also lists them going to visit his sister , Mrs Lehmann, of 357 Madison St Brooklyn. I think George became Adolf and then reverted to George again
This is going to keep me busy ;D ;D
Richard
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Hi Richard
I do so agree that later passenger lists are full of absolutely brilliant info, I sometimes wish that my family had arrived post 1900 because with my common family names, I could pick many arriving in the same year, from the same place with the same birth dates ::)
Your last sentense of your message is exactly as I saw it.... George is Adolf and visa versa. You do not often see the birth place name on the census, it is generally just Germany for instance but in this case Wurtenburg was written just above. It is by no means definite as it all depends on who gave the information to the enumerator and as we know from records here in the UK and elsewhere, places change from census to census.
I truly believe that all the info from the databases confirm that the family in 1930 is your George, Marie and Hilda Frey, there are just too many coincidences ??? ;D
I haven't found the Lehmann's mainly because there are many but it might be worth looking for someone of that name born around George's age, I will give that a go :)
I did find it very sad when I saw the address for George Shaw's father, plus it looks as though he and his brother have changed their surname to a more English sounding one! You can check the passenger lists as they arrived in 1916, I have also found George and john with their parents Frederick and Louisa Schumm? both born Germany in the 1901 English census.
Kirkdale, Lancashire
RG13
Piece 3472
Folio 84
Page 33
I will look for other info and get back to you
Best wishes
Agnes
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Oh I've known some fun with name changes but this does take some beating
Shaw/Schummer/ Schum/ Schumn :D :D :D :D
It had me chasing a Frederick Schumn , a German watchmaker in Liverpool
Richard.
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Agnes und Rikard:
Gruessen aus Neu York: Vielleicht muessen wir auf Deutsch schrieben, die familie Frey am besten zu verstanden...I'm sorry... I must have encountered...some strange atmospheric disturbance...that had me convinced...with all the German names and the changes...that I had been whisked off to Germany.
So, if I'm correct, Agnes and Richard, you two are saying that Adolf is really George and George is really Adolf? Correct if I'm wrong.
I suppose that it's appropriate that I had to read Oscar Wilde's "The Importance of Being Earnest" this weekend as part of my master's degree course work and on Tuesday I have to see the 1952 film version of it. You know the plot, two men not named Earnest masquerade as men named Earnest to marry two women, each of whom will only marry a man named Earnest.
I have no discoveries to add at the moment, but I would like to point out that there was also a good deal of anti-German feeling in the U.S. during and after World War I. That would certainly be enough to convince Adolf to go by George over here as well. That feeling didn't continue during WWII because approximately 35% of those fighting for the U.S. were of German ancestry. I need only mention Eisenhower.
Before I go any further, my interpretation ist korrekt, nein? I am confused.
Regards,
John
:o :( :o
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John,
It was murder here yesterday, the usual busy house with sons and foster kids all over the place and me desperate to get at my computer and check all this stuff out and follow up other leads :) but when I did get a little time to start chewing it over I had to come to the conclusion that Goerge (1891 UK Census) is George is Adolf is George(1930 US Census).
I have noticed that alot of the children of german immigrants had two christian names , more so than seems to occur in the rest of my UK ancestors . I wonder if George was an Adolf George. Now I have got to find the time to chase all the leads that this message has thrown up. I don't know about you but when I get an opening I just cannot leave it alone :D
However I'm over the moon to have started to open up the Freys at last, I had got nowhere for over a year of trying :)
Enjoy the film , Edith Evans as Lady Bracknell is a hoot , and the handbag scene one of the greats of British films in the fifties.
Regards Richard
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Hi Richard and John
I do not understand any of that John, apart from the New York bit ;D ;D ;D ;D
I am still convinced that George and Adolf are one and the same. Obviously before I posted, I searched for an Adolf Frey (under all sorts of spellings) living in England and didn't come up with anything that matched.
George and Maria's ages fit well with the Adolf in the passenger list as well as fitting with the England 1891 and 1901 census's.
I also searched the England BMD's and found most of the Frey family in Lancashire. I did wonder if Reginald and Magdalena, may have been Grandchildren and checked for a marriage of George junior, without luck unfortunately.
You will hopefully have noticed that the Magdalena on the passenger list is shown on the birth records as "Magdalen Gladys Frey" so obviously once in the US, used her middle name. Possibly for the same reason as you have both stated ???
Will now be giving it some more thought, to see what else could be found to prove or disprove the theory.
Will hopefully be back soon
Agnes
PS: I do not have German blood relatives that I know of but my Irish/American family who lived in the "Hell's Kitchen" area of New York, lived in close proximity and my Grandmother's second husband was a Waltenberg (second generation German) and my Uncle was born of the union and my Aunt married a third generation German/American. So this research is very close to my heart at the moment and very much a learning experience.
PPS: I well remember as a child, my father going to the food hall at Lewis's once a month and bringing home, German sausage and sauerkraut and rollmops ;D ;D ;D ;D
mmmmmmm' this is taking me back ;D
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Hi Richard
Look at the passenger list again for Adolf! It names nearest relative as Johann Frey, Steinbach WRTTBG. Would you know if that is Württemberg?
I do not know anything of Germany's geography but looks likely to me
Agnes
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Agnes,
Johann first pops up in the 1891 census with George and Marie in Manchester RG 12 / 3166/ page 8 Older brother of George and a butcher as well. I think he returns to Germany thus George quoting him on the immigrant form. Both born Steinback, Wurtenburg , Germany.
Wurtenburg, with various spellings is a region of Southern Germany similar to the English county system.
I think I have George's sister, Mrs Lehmann is none other than Catherine Lehmann, born Germany, husband Charles A, Born Switzerland living at 357 Madison in 1920 . However trying to track back is not proving easy despite the census saying they arrived in 1898, and giving ages of 48 and 46 in 1920.
No sign of naturalisation either as reported in 1902.
Boarder Ernst Trump turns out to come from Mergentheim, and what a surprise states Marie Frey as a cousin on the immigrant form :) Marie is also from Mergentheim.
I'm intrigued by a social security death reported in the New York region of a Hilda M Shaw in 1988 stating she was born in 1895 . Hmmmm I wonder :) :)
There is one Frey marriage registered in Chorlton in 1910 that of George Frederick, possibly this is the son born in 1885 Salford. Poss wife Rose Hunt as the two other names show up as linked on GenesReunited by the same person.
Richard
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Hi Richard
Looks like it could well be your Hilda as I have found a George Shaw in the SSDI, who died in June 1981, whose last residence was Suffolk County also. His birth date is shown as 4th May 1885 which is the same as the George Shaw found in the WWI draft index cards:
WWI Draft Registration
George Frederick Shaw, 149 Engert Ave, Brooklyn, NY, age 33 born May 4th 1885, England
Occupation, Motorman, B.R.T. Crosstown Depot, Greenpoint
Nearest relative, John Shaw 152 Mecker? Ave, Brooklyn, NY
Medium height, medium weight, brown eyes and brown hair
Date of registration, September 12 1918
I do believe that we are getting there ;D
Yes, I did see the George Frey marriage of 1910 and had hoped that the births of Reginald and Magdalena would have been solved with an earlier marriage. Never the less, George and Maria were certainly not too old to have had these children in their forties 8)
I see that you have located the Lehmann's! Good work ;) I presume that you have decided to take up the world subscription....you won't regret it, I know that it is quite expensive but I certainly wouldn't be without it ;D
I will have a look for them and see if I can help with locating any more info
Best wishes
Agnes
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Ok, found them in 1910 Richard
1910 census, 499 Gates Avenue, Brooklyn Ward 23, Kings, New York
Head, Charles Lehmann, age 40,
Wife, Kate, age 37
Daughter, Theodora, age 15
Daughter, Lillian, age 7
Immigration year is shown as 1890 for Catherine (Kate) and 1888 for Charles. Both Theodora and Lillian are shown as being born in New York
Roll - T624_972
Enumeration District - 584
Still looking for 1900
Agnes
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Richard
Found them in 1900 living at 1364, West Kalb Avenue, Brooklyn Ward 27, Kings, New York
Chas Lehman, age 35
Katie, age 27
Theodora, age 5
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I found Theodora's marriage
Bride
Theodora Lehman, December 2nd 1916, certificate number 3880, Bronx
Groom
Carl Mampel, December 2nd 1916, certificate number 3880, Bronx
Carl and Theodora in the 1920 census are living at 8507 106th Street, Queens Assembly District 5, Queens, New York.
Agnes
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Agnes,
I was pretty certain about Reginald and Gladys. I'm think that between Hilda 1895 and Reginald 1903 there were two other children Frank William 1898-1899 and Frank Cyril 1901- 1903. Two other children Alice 1887and Catherine 1889 also died. Infant mortality in those days was horrific, more so in industrial Manchester. I have some wonderful 1910 insurance policies taken out against infant death from another part of the familly. Interesting that in another branch of family out in New Zealand at the same time , loads of children but almost all living to a ripe old age in a cleaner rural setting.
As to the other stuff you have uncovered I'm staggered :D
I was just starting to play with Charles/ Chas and various options of Catherine/ Katherine but I hadn't got as far as Kate :) Giving misleading entry dates on the 1920 census wasn't helpful either.
Yes I did take the plunge with the Ancestry :D I just couldn't sit here unable to access the records. Unfortunately no luck wiith the German emigration records from Wuttenburg that Ancestry have online yet :(
Regards Richard
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Agnes,
I was pretty certain about Reginald and Gladys. I'm think that between Hilda 1895 and Reginald 1903 there were two other children Frank William 1898-1899 and Frank Cyril 1901- 1903. Two other children Alice 1887and Catherine 1889 also died. Infant mortality in those days was horrific, more so in industrial Manchester. I have some wonderful 1910 insurance policies taken out against infant death from another part of the familly. Interesting that in another branch of family out in New Zealand at the same time , loads of children but almost all living to a ripe old age in a cleaner rural setting.
As to the other stuff you have uncovered I'm staggered :D
I was just starting to play with Charles/ Chas and various options of Catherine/ Katherine but I hadn't got as far as Kate :) Giving misleading entry dates on the 1920 census wasn't helpful either. Just looking at the 1900 record I wish we had this much info on the English census, gives months of birth and that Kate has had two children, one living.
Yes I did take the plunge with the Ancestry :D I just couldn't sit here unable to access the records. Unfortunately no luck wiith the German emigration records from Wuttenburg that Ancestry have online yet :(
Regards Richard
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Agnes,
It's amazing how often names seem to change , Theodora and Carl get to be Theodora and Charles by 1930 with son Richard, a Social Security check has Carl dying Florida in 1976 , birth date seems good. Another german Mempal family three doors away too ;)
:D :D checked entry records :D :D It's his brother.
Richard
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Wow Richard
You are well and truly getting a move on 8) ;D
Looks like things are coming together really well, I will do my best to help out later
Best wishes
Agnes
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Hi Richard and Agnes: Again, no major breakthroughs from me. I'm just spectating, with the odd comment here and there.
Re: George and Hilda Shaw in the SSDI: Sayville and Bay Shore (their respective last residences) are near to one another on the Long Island (area known for obvious reasons as the South Shore), about an hour east of Manhattan by train or car.
George Shaw worked for the New York City subway system. Actually, he worked for one of the privately owned systems that were bought up by New York City and combined in the 1930s or 1940s into the mess that we call New York City Transit. (I think they use the word "system" there somewhere, but many New Yorkers will tell you that there is no system! to it). The initials of place of the employer in George's WWI draft registration (think that's where I saw it) were BRT, which stands for Brooklyn Rapid Transit.
I've been checking the street addresses on Yahoo maps. First, Mecker Avenue is Meeker Avenue and West Kalb Avenue is De Kalb Avenue.
Second, 499 Gates Avenue is very close to the addresses on Madison and Quincy Avenue. (The street names in that neighborhood might not have been pleasing to an Englishman or woman. The theme is American presidents and participants in our Revolutionary War vs. you-know-who).
Meeker and Engert, where the Shaw brothers lived, are close to one another in a neighborhood now callled Williamsburg.
These folks were migrating in a northeasterly direction (probably helped as much by the prevailing winds as by the prospect of better jobs or living conditions).
Regards,
John
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It is amazing where odd connections take one, brother Frederick Mampel, 3 doors away, produced a wife with two children and a sister and child all arriving in 1928 and oddly exactly the same group re entering New York in 1935. They must have gone on a home visit. the records give a wealth of information :)
I'm still battling to pin down Catherine /Kate Lemann , she is stated as sister to George/ Adolf and aunt to Hilda so I presume she is indeed a Frey entering the States in 1890, and marrying Carl Lehmann in1894 in New York, but I cannot find any records to prove this beyond doubt. Also no records of the Lehmann family after 1920 ;) Oh for a free BMD in America :D Still if back in the UK none of this post 1901 stuff would be available .
I wonder who on the Frey side is said to have visited the children of Alice Frey back in the UK, again family story has it that somebody came back to the UK at some time
Richard
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Hi Richard
I have had a good search and cannot find the Lehmann's in 1930 nor anything absolutely definite in the New York death indexes!
Also have been searching the passenger list for a family member arriving back in the US post 1930, again nothing definite :(
I won't be online a great deal over the next three days as I run a class at my local community centre but hopefully, I will be able to help out at the weekend. That is if you need it by then, you are moving on so fast ;D ;D ;D 8)
Very best wishes
Agnes
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It's interesting following the strands that one picks up :)
Ernst Trump,b. 1901 Germany , a boarder in the 1930 census turns out to be a cousin of Marie Frey from the entry details, but then turns up on a ship manifest in 1935 married to a Gladys b.1901 (now an American citizen) :D :D,could this be Gladys Frey , well the dates all fit. Address given as Richmond Hill. Paperwork appears to have been done in Washington.Even more curious Ernst Trump turns up on the social records as an American citizen dying in Germany 1988 while a Gladys Trump appears dying in Germany in 2000. It looks like they both returned to Germany in old age. Both records recorded by American consulates.
Meanwhile Frederick Breuninger, remember him :), the cousin of Hilda in the 1920 census , well he arrived in 1895, age 17, I wonder what part of the family was already in New York for him to stay with? I wonder while George/Adolf and Marie Frey emigrated to England in about 1882 , another strand headed for the States.
Frederick turns up again in 1955 with wife Elizabeth on a ship manifest, address 52, 5th St West Sayville NY returning from a visit to Germany . Finally Frederick is on the social records recorded as dying in West Sayville , New York in 1970.
What an amazing amount of connections starting from one record of Hilda Frey on a ships manifest in 1912 ;D ;D
The only shame is that I have thrown just about every name into the Rootsweb search but nobody else appears to have logged any of these people :(
Richard.
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I found Theodora's marriage Bride Theodora Lehman, December 2nd 1916, certificate number 3880, Bronx Groom Carl Mampel, December 2nd 1916, certificate number 3880, Bronx Carl and Theodora in the 1920 census are living at 8507 106th Street, Queens Assembly District 5, Queens, New York.
Agnes
Hello Cousin Richard
This is Kenneth Paul Mampel. My paternal grandparents are Carl Otto Guenther Mampel and Theodora Lehman Mampel. My father is Charles Andrew Richard Mampel who was an only child born 1920.
Carl was one of 12 children born in Ilmenau, Germany. Two of Carl's brothers are Frederic and Richard. Anna a sister played piano and Minna another sister. Much of the Mampel clan stayed in Germany.
I have a picture of my great-grandparents Charles and Kate Lehman that I must find along with my Grandma Theodora and Great-Aunt Lily (Lillian). Theodora had just one younger sister Lillian who was a twin. The twin died at birth. No males were born to Charles and Kate. Theodora lived in Bedford-Stuyvesant or the Brownsville section of Brooklyn then Richmond Hill, Queens, where Charles Andrew Richard, my Dad, was born and then in Hollis Woods, Queens. Theodora died of cancer on December 19, 1969 at my parents’ home, as we took care of her and Carl, in West Hempstead, NY on Long Island. We then moved to Ormond Beach FL. in 1972. Carl died in '76 you know that. Lillian lived in Dover. N.J. and moved to Palmetto FL. Lillian married Charles Jasinki and had two sons Bobby and Walter Jasinski. Bobby was a pilot killed in WWII. Walter lives in Florida. My grandfather Carl’s first wife before he married Theodora was named Anna. She died and then Carl remarried Theodora. That’s where I come in. Have original wedding cert of Carl and Anna.
I know one of the Lehman or Frey families is full or half Jewish. Do you know which one? Now, does Lehman have one or two n’s? My Grandma said it was 2.
My Dear Mother who had a wealth of family info. We always talked about family heritage, but that well is gone, she passed last year. I have a sister named Elizabeth Theodora Mampel Deckelman, yes Theodora is here middle name, whom I have talked to tonight and she is of course more interested what happens here. Email for more info Agnes should have it. This is terrific!!
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A very big Hi to you Kenneth and welcome indeed to Rootschat
I am absolutely sure that Richard will be so excited when he sees your message, I personally am sooooooooo thrilled.
This is the most wonderful news
My very best wishes to you
Agnes
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I hope you don't mind me saying but you might want to remove your email address to to guard against spammers (just use the modify button on your post). We have a Personal Message system on Rootschat to enable us to exchange addresses.
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Hi all :D
I see you two are online ;). I have just got on line to a mass of messages, just getting my brain in gear. This really is a turn up for the books
Give me a minute . I'll be back with something more intelligent
Richard
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Hey Richard, so pleased to see you, we have been waiting ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Just take your time and I will back out now, enjoy talking to your cousin (I have!)
Loads of good wishes to you both
Agnes
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Waiting to hear from you...keeping me in suspenders!!! :D :D :D :D
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Hi Ken, Welcome to Rootschat. Thought I'd add my congratulations to you and Richard on making the connection. I played some part in this search, and also live in Brooklyn, so I've been following it with great interest.
Wondering what happened to Charles and Kate Lehman, since Richard and Agnes couldn't find them in the 1930 U.S. census.
Regards,
John
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John,
They were in there somewhere, son Charles Andrew Richard who we found as Richard Mampel born 1920 New York is the connection through to Ken. The puzzle now is Ken is not aware that the family knew of the other Frey/Shaw connections back to the same family of Freys. yet the passenger records showed they knew each other and indeed some of the census stuff reveals them passing through each others houses
Richard
ps we have got alot of digging and sorting and for that matter alot of exchanging info to do yet :D
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yet the passenger records showed they knew each other and indeed some of the census stuff reveals them passing through each others houses
Richard: Knowing each other and passing through each other's houses is one of the typical behaviors of immigrants to the U.S. One relative might serve as a pathfinder to the U.S. and later be joined by others or by friends from the same town. They'd find jobs in the same industry, live in the same village, town, or section of a city. Sometimes, as happened with my Italian forebears, whole groups would emigrate from the same village and settle near one another, trying to duplicate the social structure of the old country. My English ancestors from Halifax were not so group-minded, but when my great-grandfather and my great-grandmother emigrated, they went to a city in Massachusetts where one of his sisters was already living, and they worked in the same industry that had employed them in England.
That's why I pointed out the "northeastern migration pattern" of the Lehman/Freys/Shaws. From Brooklyn toward Queens, that is.
Regards,
John
P.S. I might go to the New York City Municipal Archives on an unrelated matter. So make a list and check it twi...no, make that...thrice.
John
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yet the passenger records showed they knew each other and indeed some of the census stuff reveals them passing through each others houses
Richard: Knowing each other and passing through each other's houses is one of the typical behaviors of immigrants to the U.S. One relative might serve as a pathfinder to the U.S. and later be joined by others or by friends from the same town. They'd find jobs in the same industry, live in the same village, town, or section of a city. Sometimes, as happened with my Italian forebears, whole groups would emigrate from the same village and settle near one another, trying to duplicate the social structure of the old country. My English ancestors from Halifax were not so group-minded, but when my great-grandfather and my great--grandmother emigrated, they went to a city in Massachusetts where one of his sister was already living, and they worked in the same industry that had employed them in England.
That's why I pointed out the "northeastern migration pattern" of the Lehman/Freys/Shaws.
Regards,
John
P.S. I might go to the New York City Municipal Archives on an unrelated matter. So make a list and check it twi...no, make that...thrice.
John
Thanks Johnny...anywhere near Bay 8th and Cropsy Ave? My first girlfriend was from there.
We figured we are Half-First Cousins once removed.
We will continue to find out more with you and that Southpaw Agnes.
I do agree some people as they cross the Ocean cross paths and then lose touch as Shaw and Frey could have done. I think Lehmann/Frey my great grandparents met and married before there came here. Shaw could have just been on ship. I just don't surely know. Can't wait to find the pic of Kate and my Grandma and Aunt Lily and see if Richard's family showed any resemblance.
Ken
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Ken: Originally from Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. I live near Brooklyn College and Bedford Avenue. I do know Cropsey Avenue--but as a place to avoid because of the Belt Parkway!
If you feel up to it, you can scan your picture and attach it to a posting here on Rootschat. Over three hundred people have followed this thread. I'm sure they'd be interested in seeing the pic.
Regards,
John
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I'm now going to have to go back all over this again checking :D and there was me thinking i could put this all to bed and leave to rest for a while.
I've just got into silk weavers in Suffolk in 1700-1850 , I can see that going on the back burner :)
Richard
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Richard: You could also get a bigger stove! :o
I mentioned earlier that I may go to the NYC Municipal Archives. That will probably be in early January.
John
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:D :D
I'm now trying to track the Lehmanns into New York , one census says 1898 but no sign of them, I'm sure it is earlier
Richard
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Richard, Ken and John
Found Charles petition for naturalization record ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
County court, Kings County
1st page
Lehmann Charles
Date of naturalization, Nov 2nd 1900
Vol, 309, page, 215
address, 1362 Dekalb Avenue
Occupation, Cooper, age 30
former nationality, Emporer of Germany
port of arrival, New York
Date of arrival, Aug 20th 1890
Witness to naturalization
George Martens, 491 Gates Ave
Occupation, Saloon
2nd page
Series 1, Record number 11181
About to check the passenger lists with this new info
Agnes
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Well , looking at the 1910 census again, Charles entered in1888 and Kate in 1890. Married column gives a figure of fifteen years married so it would indicate they met and married New York, then again the 1900 has Charles as 1898 and Kate as 1890 Now who took care of a 17 yr old Kate when she came to New York? :D and for that matter who did Charles stay with? Also interesting to see by 1910 she had had 5 children but only two living Theodora and Lillian. Hard times :-[
Richard
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Richard
If you look at the 1900 census, Charles' occupation is shown as "Cooper", so the record above looks pretty convincing as well as the address, also on that particular census, his immigration year is shown as 1890 ;) :D
Hopefully John will give his thoughts on this :)
Can't find Charles whilst doing a search for the 20 Aug 1890, there is a Leopold Lehmann, arriving on that day , although his occupation is shown as "Painter"
will continue to search :)
Agnes
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Hi all:
My thoughts: Charles might have been working for a brewery or for the saloon to which his naturalization witness was attached. Sorry, my brain is on low-power at the moment.
Agnes, is the 1900 census address the same as the address on the naturalization petition? Also, where did you find the nat. petition? On Ancestry.com somewhere?
John
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Hi John
I stupidly forgot to check the address :-[
It is , I presume a tenement building (lots of families at the same address ???) and it is certainly 136? De Kalb Ave ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes, I found the record on Ancestry..... do you have access to the Immigration records, or I could send you the image.
Agnes
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In 1900, Katie (Catherine) is shown as having had 2 children and 1 living(Theodora)
Could this be the other child?
New York City Deaths, 1892-1902
Charles Lehmann, age 1 year, 3rd July 1897
Certificate number 19897
Just thought it might be something to look at at the archives
Agnes
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Am I losing the plot ? :D
1920 at madison St
1910 looks like at Gates Avenue Brooklyn
1900 Riverdale Ave, Yonkers? Westchester ,Kings as boarders
Meanwhile I approach the brick throwing stage with passenger records on a night were my broadband seems to have reverted to dial up speed :D
Richard
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Richard:
Who is at this address?
1900 Riverdale Ave, Yonkers? Westchester ,Kings as boarders
Yonkers is not far from Brooklyn (next to the Bronx) and Westchester is the county Yonkers is in. But it is a bit away fro the main action of this tale.
Agnes: I'll probably ask for copies after I've finished with the next week and a half of pure, unmitigated he...ck.
John
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Richard
No! They are definitely in Brooklyn in 1900
This is the reference
Roll - T623 1065
Page - 19B
Enumeration District - 492
There is Charles, Katie and Theodora in the household
Agnes
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:D :D
it's so easy to trip up, and it really threw my searches further back at Riverdale Ave Yonkers in 1900
A Chas Lehmann born 1870 Switzerland
A Kate Lehmann born 1873 Germany has been married 6 years , had 2 children, 1 living , but no children at same address
entered in 1889and 1890.
:D :D ok , i''ll go get my coat
Richard
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Don't you dare ;D ;D ;D
Now, why can't we find them in 1930?
I am going to read through the whole thread again to see if I have missed something ???
Also, although Kate (Catherine) was quoted as "sister" and "aunt" on the passenger manifests, do you think that we are making the wrong assumption in thinking that she was George's sister? maybe she was Marie's sister ???
Am I correct in thinking that we do not know Marie's maiden name?
Agnes
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:D hmmmmmm pause for thought, still thinking that despite my mislead on 1900 they entered in 1890 but still not married till 1893 so we should be able to track them in somehow or we desperately need the marriage to prove things one way or the other
oh and in 1920 Carl and Theodora Mampel (nee lehmann) Theodora has father born Switzerland and mother born Germany. Am I the only one getting dizzy :D
up date: a Karl Lehmann right age arrived in 1890 but in December. Again I wonder if we have a Karl, Carl, Chas and Charles mix here
Richard
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Hi Richard
Eyes are really tired now, so will call it a night :)
Strange that you should mention Switzerland, I will have to go back and look at the census's.....but I am sure that Ken mentioned Switzerland when we were "talking" in the chatroom this morning.
Tiredness has crept up on me but hopefully Ken will clear this up when he comes online.
More to do tomorrow ;D ;D ;D
Agnes
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Ken: Originally from Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. I live near Brooklyn College and Bedford Avenue. I do know Cropsey Avenue--but as a place to avoid because of the Belt Parkway!
If you feel up to it, you can scan your picture and attach it to a posting here on Rootschat. Over three hundred people have followed this thread. I'm sure they'd be interested in seeing the pic.
Regards,
John
I was going to upload it...great minds think alike LOL
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Occupation, Cooper, age 30
Agnes
FYI, a cooper is a barrel maker.
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Well , looking at the 1910 census again, Charles entered in1888 and Kate in 1890. Married column gives a figure of fifteen years married so it would indicate they met and married New York, then again the 1900 has Charles as 1898 and Kate as 1890 Now who took care of a 17 yr old Kate when she came to New York? :D and for that matter who did Charles stay with? Also interesting to see by 1910 she had had 5 children but only two living Theodora and Lillian. Hard times :-[
Richard
Many times the man came over first to secure a job and living before the wife and family came. This could be the reason.
That is what happened to my Nana and Mom when they came over from Hungary in 1940, in fact they were on the second to last ship allowed to leave Europe because of Nazi's coming into power.
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In 1900, Katie (Catherine) is shown as having had 2 children and 1 living(Theodora)
Could this be the other child?
New York City Deaths, 1892-1902
Charles Lehmann, age 1 year, 3rd July 1897
Certificate number 19897
Just thought it might be something to look at at the archives
Agnes
Agnes, my Grandma Thea said she ONLY had the one sister Lily. Lily's twin died at birth or maybe some hours or days after.
I will attempt to get hold of Walter, Lily's son, to find out what he knows.
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Hi Richard
Eyes are really tired now, so will call it a night :)
Strange that you should mention Switzerland, I will have to go back and look at the census's.....but I am sure that Ken mentioned Switzerland when we were "talking" in the chatroom this morning.
Tiredness has crept up on me but hopefully Ken will clear this up when he comes online.
More to do tomorrow ;D ;D ;D
Agnes
Yes Agnes, there is a Switzerland!
Grandma Thea TOLD my her Father Charles Lehmann was born in Switz. My surprise is the move to the UK. I don't remember her telling my that. Will check must more with my sister Betsy.
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I will get better one.....
Theodora Lehmann Mampel and Carl Mampel in center on pic one
Lillian Lehmann Jasinski and Charles Jasinki (no glasses) on pic two
both taken at Wedding in 1954, that's my Mom on Grandpa's left your right.
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Great pics Ken
It's great to see old family photos and the fact that they get handed on, sometimes I could scream for the lack of stuff handed down .Yet families who emigrated seemed to value family mementoes far more. I actually recovered a picture of my great grandmother b.1861 Warwickshire which had been coverted in America for 90 years by a distant relative and in another line a photo dated around 1860 involving Australia that was still in the familyand had all the info written on the back , and others again from New Zealand. It's almost embarassing to have so little to return in kind.
I have been giving Agnes's point about exactly who was the sister some thought, and unfortunately the immigration papers list George and Marie as going to sister Mrs Lehmann. So it really is open, George and Marie married in Germany so there is little chance of finding her maiden name.
The only possible opening is pinning down Charles and Kate Lehmann, if the census is true,then they arrived 1898 and 1890 but married in 1894 in New York. I don't know if american birth certicates would open this up perhaps someone on here would know.
Richard
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We will find, plus I will call Walter like I said and see what he knows. He's Lily's son. Maybe a wealth of infomation...maybe a dead end.
Ken
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Can't find Walter at the one of three number listed, nor his son....a wall?
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Never mind Ken, I'm still amazed at you stumbling across this thread :D
While we seem to have stalled a touch going back with the Lehmanns, looking forward it still occurs to me likely that Ernest and Gladys Trump nee Frey might have had a family even though SSDI seems to indicate they both died back in Germany in 1988 and 2000
Meanwhile Reginald Frey although a possible SSDI 1970 New York may well have living descendants too.
Not forgetting Hilda (Frey)and George Shaw, with poss SSDI 1981, 1988, have sons Roy, 1929, and George, 1925 have no SSDI showing and must surely have descendants. The phone numbers listed on Ancestry registered in the New York area give me itchy fingers :D :D I've done it before with a call to a number in Australia and come up trumps. Mind you,I would have felt a bit of an idiot if it hadn't worked out ;)
Richard
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Look, just give the ANY phone numbers in the U.S. and I will call. Costs me nothing!!!
Use my PRIVATE email of course....
I must know now about that part of our family as well.
My son is the ONLY one to keep the Lehmann/Frey line going, unless George has sons downline.
Half Cousin Ken ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Well, I'm sitting here in suspense, the first number I pulled out of the hat is indeed the grandson of George Frey
Ken just mailed me with a very short message "talking to him now,his grandfather was George Frey"
It's killing me waiting to know more :D :D
Richard
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GET THIS GUYS AND GALS...
George Frey III whom I talked to this morning, IS CLOSER BLOODLINE than Cousin Richard!!!
George's Grandfather George I is my Great Grandmother Kate's BROTHER, remember George's Grandfather George I stayed with my Great Grandparents Charles and Kate Lehmann and my Grandma Theodora in their home when he came here from England!!!
So George III IS MY FULL BLOODED SECOND COUSIN ONCE REMOVED...MY DADS FULL SECOND COUSIN!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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could we have a translation on that :D
If I have this right then Kate Lehmann was a sister of George Frey, not wife Marie.
Richard
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Right..........
This George Frey III whom I talked to this morning lived in Richmond Hill, Queens in year 1927 and for a few more years, coincidently MY FATHER BORN IN RICHMOND HILL IN 1920...doesn't recall Lehmann Family, but he said never met or knew whole family. George has to kids Dale and Gail both girls.
BIGGY---Hilda Marie mix-up!!!! George III, I talked to explained…both his Grandmother AND Mother were named Hilda-Marie!!!!! They called one Hilda and one Marie to denote the difference between the two, but BOTH George I and George II wives had the exact same name Hilda Marie Frey!!!!!
He has an Aunt named Gladys married to Ernest Trump late in life and lived at 10457 89th Ave. Richmond Hill. No kids.
George III has a brother named Roy Frey alive and well, whom I will call. No kids for Roy.
He had an Uncle Reginald Frey, deceased he remembers from around 1940 who lived in Woodhaven, Queens with Wife Freda they got divorced. Had business, a sporting equipment store in on Maiden Ln. in Manhattan. Had a son named Reggie Jr. and a girl doesn't remember name.
Had another Uncle Alfred Frey who lived on 107th St. Richmond Hill with Wife named Florence and kids Alfred Jr. and Leo. Alfred Frey came U.S. around WW1 from UK. (Majority of Frey’s came to U.S. around same time the story is). They have kids...he doesn’t remember names.
Shaw WAS originally Schum, why’d he change it? He owned a Pawn Shoppe in the UK and because the name Schum was German and being German wasn’t great, he changed his name to Shaw to do business!!!
John Shaw, he kept Shaw name and was George III Uncle in Elmhurst, Queens
George I, the Grandfather, was a Butcher and owned his own shop.
Gladys is George III Aunt, his Mother’s sister.
Fred Breuninger is George III Uncle Fred married the Elizabeth or Aunt Lizzie (he remembers them).
Adolf or Adolph could be a middle name of George I or II, he doesn’t know.
George says he really doesn't remember Aunt's to well or as well as Uncles. Many lived right around him.
This guy George is on the ball for 81.
Richard, this means George III….. is my REAL FULL second cousin once removed since George I and Kate are Brother and Sister!!!!!!
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Richard:
Did you get all that....Richard....Richard? I think he's been what they call over there "gob-smacked"
Ken: Congratulations on the discoveries. Perhaps for Richard's sake you might repeat all that...but slowly! I checked 411.com. Found a person who might be Reginald's son, out in Garden City, NY. (Richard that is on Long Island, east of New York City, not too far from Bay Shore and Sayville, where other relatives moved.
Regards,
John
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Richard:
Ignore this. I posted the same thing twice and now can't delete the post. So I deleted the text.
John
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John,
Yes I have it all, the e mails were flying thick and fast this afternnon from the minute I sent the first New York telephone number to Ken with a try this one and got a hit the first time out :) I've run through what Ken posted adding notes in an e mail to him.
This has somewhat galvanised me into action this end, I rang my father who fortunately had an address and phone number for a cousin, John, I hadn't seen for the best part of 30 years. I had thought of calling him for nearly a year but had never got round to it as the Freys story lay dormant.
After a very long phone call reaquainting each other with where we had been, and some interesting views on some of our older relatives,he told be he thought that both his mother and aunt, the daughters of Alice Frey, sister to all the other Freys and daughter of the orginal George and Marie might possibly have some pictures of the Freys of that time.
Also he is sure his aunt did some family research years ago but and it's a large but, we are talking about two very old ladies of 89 and 90 so we will have to see what transpires. John, my cousin, also recalls a visitor from the American Freys around late 1950 but cannot be certain who.
Oh and as John's mother was a Frey descendant from our grandfathers first marriage ,he also shares a bloodline link to Ken
So lots of stuff tumbling out from this , we are not finished yet I think
Richard
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Had another Uncle Alfred Frey who lived on 107th St. Richmond Hill with Wife named Florence and kids Alfred Jr. and Leo. Alfred Frey came U.S. around WW1 from UK. (Majority of Frey’s came to U.S. around same time the story is). They have kids...he doesn’t remember names
Oh what tangled webbs they weave, Uncle Alfred ,at least Alfred in 1901 census, is George F by the time of his marriage to Florence Meade in 1910 Manchester and is George A arriving with Florence, and sons Alfred and Leo in 1927. As there was already a son George Frederick born 1885 Manchester , I had discounted the 1927 arrival, as the age of "George" didn't add up. and then he's Alfred again in the US :D
Richard
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Johnny, keep in mind I was born in Jamaica, Queen's then moved to West Hempstead, so I know the area well.
Cool info huh???
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Congratulations, Richard and Ken
This is the most wonderful news, I am sooooooooo very happy for you both.
I am feeling honoured and delighted to have been involved in a small way in your magnificent quest.
Absolutely loved reading all the updated information (although I haven't quite got my head around the relationships yet ???)
My most sincere good wishes to you both and to your family members ;D ;D ;D
Agnes
Looking forward to the next installment 8)
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Thank you Agnes, but we can still use your help too.
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The Frey , Lehmann, Schumn, Mampel,and Breuninger families.
Johann Frey b 1850 Steinbach Wurttenburg Germany
George aka Adolf Frey b 1857 Steinbach Wurttenburg Germany
Catherine aka Kate Frey b 1873 Steinbach Wurttenburg Germany
In 1882 George Frey marries
Marie b Mergentheim, Germany.
In about 1883 George, Marie , and brother John emigrate to Manchester , Lancashire UK, setting up a butchers shop,
Johann returning to Germany by 1901. Meanwhile George and Marie have between 1884 and 1905 at least eight children.
Florence Emily b 1884 Manchester Lancs
George Frederick b 1885 Manchester Lancs
Catherine Lily b 1889 Manchester Lancs
George Alfred b 1891 Manchester Lancs
Alice Louisa b 1893 Manchester Lancs
Hilda Marie b 1895 Manchester Lancs
Reginald Andrew b.1903 Manchester Lancs
Gladys Magdelen b. 1905 Manchester Lancs
Alice Louisa Frey marries William Harold Bradshaw b 1894 Hulme Manchester in 1915. They have two daughters
Irene b 1916
Margery Louisa b 1917
Alice Frey dies 12/12/1918.
Passenger Records
14 Dec 1914 Hilda Marie Frey emigrates to New York USA and states her aunt, Mrs Lehmann, 352 Quincy St , Brooklyn as her relative in New York in the passenger records.
April 21 1922 Adolf aka George and Marie Frey with son Reginald and daughter Gladys arrive in New York
stating their sister Mrs Lehmann, 357 Madison St Brooklyn as relative in New York in passenger records.
1927 George aka Alfred Frey, wife Florence nee Meade b 1892 Chester, Cheshire and sons Alfred b 1916 Chester and Leo b 1921 Chester arrive in New York stating father G Frey as nearest relative.
Census
The 1920 US census Hilda Frey
Engert Avenue, Brooklyn Assembly District 15, Kings, New York
Head of household, Frederick G Breuninger (transcribed as Brenninger), age 39, immigration year 1895, naturalized 1904, born Germany as were both his parents, occupation Iron (Stoker?) Iron Foundry
Wife, Elizabeth, age 34, born New York, both parents born Germany
Cousin, Hilda M Fray, age 24, immigration year 1912, Alien, born England, both her parents born Germany, occupation Stenographer Clothing House
Boarder, George F Shaw, age 34, immigration year 1915, Pa, born England, both parents born Germany, occupation Motorman City Railroad
Noted that Frederick or wife Elizabeth Breuninger is a cousin of Hilda Frey.
A Georg Friedrich Breuninger of Steinbach is recorded in German emigrant records as born 18 Apr 1880 and applying to leave Germany in July 1895 . These dates do fit well.
George Shaw is fact George Schumn b1885 Liverpool UK to German parents , who emigrated with brother John
in 1915.
Hilda Frey 1930
Living at 10457 89th Avenue, Queens, Queens, New York
Head, George Frey, Half owns home, $14000, has a Radio, age 72, married at age 24, born Wurtenberg Germany as were both parents, immigration year 1922, PA, occupation Porter Hosiery Co.
Wife, Marie, age 68, born Germany both parents born Germany, immigration year 1922, Al
Son, Reginald, age 26, born England, immigration year 1922, NA, occupation Mechanic Sports Goods Co.
Daughter, Gladys, age 24, born England, immigration year 1922, NA
Boarder, Earnest Trump, age 29, born Wurtenberg Germany, both parents born Germany, immigration year 1926, PA, occupation Mechanic Garage
Head, George F Shaw, half owns home, $14000, age 44, married at age 37, born Liverpool England, both parents born Germany, immigration year 1916, NA, occupation Instructor Railroad
Wife, Hilda, age 34, married at age 27, born Manchester England, both parents born Germany, immigration year 1912, NA
Son, George, age 4 and 6 months, born New York
Son, Roy, age 1 and 1 month, born New York
George and Hilda Shaw have two children
George b 1925
Roy b 1929
Boarder Earnest Trump is a cousin of Marie Frey. Also born Mergentheim Germany 1901.
Gladys Frey marries Earnest Trump , no children, Earnest dies 1988 Germany and Gladys 2000 Germany
Reginald 1905 – 1970 marries in New York details as yet not known Wife Freda Son Reginald.
the Lehmann Family wife Elizabeth quoted as cousin to Hilda and sister to George/Marie Frey
in 1900 living at 1364, West Kalb Avenue, Brooklyn Ward 27, Kings, New York
Chas Lehman, age 35
Katie, age 27
Theodora, age 5
1910 census, 499 Gates Avenue, Brooklyn Ward 23, Kings, New York
Head, Charles Lehmann, age 40,
Wife, Kate, age 37
Daughter, Theodora, age 15
Daughter, Lillian, age 7
Marriage.
Theodora Lehman, December 2nd 1916, certificate number 3880, Bronx
Groom
Carl Mampel, December 2nd 1916, certificate number 3880, Bronx
Carl and Theodora in the 1920 census are living at 8507 106th Street, Queens Assembly District 5, Queens, New York.
Children of Carl and Theodora
Charles Andrew Richard Mampel b 1920 New York
Steinbach , given as Georges birthplace is closer to the Swiss German border than Mergentheim,Marie's birthplace and as Charles Lehmann is stated to come from Switzerland. I'm inclined to go with Kate being a Frey and at the end of the day it still maintains the blood relation line either way.
Richard
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Looks like Elizabeth born NY 1886 and wife of Frederick Breuninger is a Mampel . Carl Mampel arriving in 1914 gives brother in law Fred Breuninger as address in NY.
Richard
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Looks like Elizabeth born NY 1886 and wife of Frederick Breuninger is a Mampel . Carl Mampel arriving in 1914 gives brother in law Fred Breuninger as address in NY.
Richard
Say what? Here's a fly....Carl Mampel my Grandfather was the oldest of 12 born August 22, 1887....Mampel Family from Ilmenau, Germany. No Elizabeth older or even in America. I need help tracing the Mampel's..Richard, Agnes, and Johnny..
HELP!!
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It's ok Ken, I think I have jumped the gun a bit , it just looked like a Fred B---nger , and I have wrong Carl's entry. Losing the plot with the years :D
Richard
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Hi Ken and Richard
In the 1930 census living at 173-31 104 Rd, Jamaica, Queens, New York (Charles (Carl), Theodora and Richard are living at 175-13) is Frederick (Friedrich?) Mampel age 31 his wife Barbara age 28 and daughters Marianne age 9 and Gerta (Gerda?)
Also living in the household is Friedrich's sister Ida Mampel age 40.
They were all born Germany and immigration year for all of them is shown as 1928.
Are Friedrich and Ida, the brother and sister of Carl? At the very least, they are bound to be relatives.... ??? :)
I haven't found them in the passenger lists arriving in 1928 (+/- 1) but there is an entry for Barbara, Marianne and Gerda returning to the US in 1935, relatives name is Friedrich Mampel, so he obviously didn't travel at this time.
Ken, can you give some names of your Mampel's.... :)
Agnes
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Agnes ,
Yes they are brother and sister
On one of the passenger lists 1928 I think, one of the sisters Minna, is listed as a Merten, but lists Mampel as family, just above the list of the Mampel family on the passenger record Has son Hans too born 1920 Germany.
Ken also listed a Richard and an Anna in his first post as siblings
Richard
PS check for SS Berlin arriving New York 21 April 1928
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Hi Richard
I was a bit concerned that I might be duplicating information.....just give me a shout if you need any more help searching :)
Best wishes
Agnes
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:D thats all I've found Agnes
would now kill for better passenger records pre 1900 :D :D
Richard
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Agnes, don't stop looking on my account :D
Right, today I talked with my 89 year old aunt and I can confirm that the Freys who came back to visit were Uncle Alfred and Auntie Flo. No sign of them in passenger records, etc. However with George III recalling them and children Alfred Jr and Leo, they must have stayed in New York. Uncle Alfred is recalled both by my cousin John, and my Aunt for being an artist of some kind, he apparently was always drawing - painting. My aunt recalls they both stayed in touch for years, sending birthday presents for the children etc. So , I guess I would love to track this particular couple. I've been using Ancestry for all searches so far without any good pointers so any ideas where to try next?
Richard
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Richard, Ken, and Agnes:
Don't know if any of you have looked for them or have anything for the Mampels. But I found Carl Mampel from Ilmenau entering the U.S. three times: 1895, 1905, and 1914. I found the passenger lists on the Ellis Island site.
In 1895 he's 3 years old, which doesn't jibe with Ken's dob of 1887. Father is Charles and mother is Wilhelmina. One of the children, looks like Edna seems to have been born in the U.S.
Could I have the wrong Mampels? :'( :'( :'( :'(
I'm extremely busy for the next few days. But I have been following along. Let me know if you need help locating the passenger lists.
Regards,
John
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Hi Richard
You just know that it would be impossible for me to stop searching 8) ;D ;D
I was very busy yesterday, as I'm sure everyone else is, with the Christmas shopping. I have just logged on and saw your message and wouldn't you know.....new names just had to get me going.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Due to your family having a thing with their first names I thought that I would search the 1930 census, using Leo* with mother's name Flo*
Here is your family
Living at 8801, 107th Street, Richmond Hill, Queens
Head of household, George Frey, rents home $60, age 39, first married at age 23, born England, both parents born Germany, immigration year 1927, occupation Porter Umbrella Co.
Wife, Florence, age 37, first married at age 37, born England as were both parents, imm year 1927
Son, Alfred, age 14, born England, imm 1927
Son, Leo, age 11, born England, imm 1927
Niece, Sheila Warren, age 14, born England, imm year 1927
...and the family left Liverpool on the 28th May 1927 and arrived in New York on 6th June 1927 on the ship Laconia, (George is shown as George A) and it wont take you long to quess that their relative is (father/father in law/Grandfather) George Frey, who lives on 89th Avenue, Richmond Hill, Long Island (which is Queens!)
Check the 1930 census info on page one of this thread and you will see that the Frey's were living at "10457 89th Avenue, Queens, Queens, New York"
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
So, now to try to move forward.......
Agnes
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Marriage Jan/Feb/March quarter 1915, Chester
Two entries,
George A frey (spouse Williams)
Alfred G Frey (spouse Williams)
and...
Florence Williams (spouse Frey)
Births
Leo Frey (mother's maiden name Williams) born in 4th Quarter 1918, Chester
I cannot find Alfred Frey, possibly needs a deeper search (maybe another first name?)
Also in the passenger lists....
Florence and Sheila Warren travelled in 1938 on the Ship "Scythia"
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:D I don't think I'vre been led such a tangle for ages
I think we have a name tangle here, but I think I can say there is just one Frey marrying Florence Williams and that he was Alfred George Frey, (1891)however he does pop up as George Alfred from time to time lol Anyway to the family he was Uncle Fred.
If you really want some fun , have a look at 1911 for a Frey , followed by a marriage in 1914, tut tut, this was the oldest daughter Florence Emily 1884 who remained in England, as did her daughter, who never married and again stayed in contact for many years with her sisters children.
Still untangling the rest
Richard
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I just love it Richard...... :D ;) ;D ;D ;D
Leo?
Leo Frey, born 30th September 1918, died 23rd December 1995 in Duval, Florida
The SSDI shows that his number was issued in New York
If it is..... ? more Frey's moving to Florida....... ???
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I can see me giving Ken florida phone numbers to ring :D
Meanwhile I'm intrigued that my aunt thought that George and Marie had gone to America before she was born in 1917 whereas the records show 1922, but travelling from Bremen Germany. My aunt says they went due to the threat of internment on the Isle of Man. Trying to untangle that. Unfortunately all records of WW1 internees destroyed in 1970 by UK government. So perhaps they were internees or left the UK back to Germany and to the USA in 1922 to join daughter Hilda.
Richard
ps Alfred Frey Oct-Dec 1915 Vol 8A /600 Chester mother Williams
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Hi Richard
Yes, lots of numbers that look very promising indeed ;D ;D ;D ;D
With George Shaw's (Schumm) father being in the Stobs Camp in Scotland in 1916, I believe that your Aunt is right.... and maybe their only option was to make that trip from Germany rather than the UK.
That is awful news that the internment records were destroyed >:(
I did do a search of Rootschat for Stobs camp, Scotland, when I posted my original message regarding George and John Shaw's arrival and I remember that there was some discussion.....will have to search again and see what is available.
I have posted a reply with some info for the Mampel's, to Ken's message on the Common room board, here is the link..... let me know if I am duplicating info that you have already ;D ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=200092.new
Agnes
Richard, just searched and came up with a link...... it could possibly lead to more avenues to search..
http://members.aol.com/stobsmilitary/Pages/Page6/page6.htm
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http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/famhist/genealgy/intern.htm
It could well be that George was interned then deported, women were not held, the article makes depressing reading of how German civilians were treated. It's no wonder almost all the Freys departed these shores
Richard
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I'm back working on this ,now Christmas is out of the way.
Interestingly I now have a contact in the UK from the Williams family whose kin also recall Uncle Fred and Auntie Flo / Alfred Frey and Florence Williams.
They seemed to have visited Florence Williams family in Chester as well as Alice Freys daughters in later years. Indeed they recall seeing Flo and cousin Shiela Warren off in 1938 aboard the Scythia returning to NY.
Just out of interest, in the UK 1891 census of the Freys in Manchester , they have a boarder Carl Volkert, born same region as Marie Frey, also in the house are his two sisters , one Lizzie as a house maid and one Bertha as a visitor. Again I've found a descendant from one of Carls brothers who also emigrated from Germany to the UK. Terrible tales of anti german feeling , including house burning by mobs and internment in the Isle of Man.
despite which they remained in the UK.
Nothing new from America yet, I'm still hoping we might find descendants of Leo and Alfred Jnr Frey somewhere.
Richard
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Still digging on this one , but I now have a picture of the Freys, unfortunately no date, names or place :'(
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Hi Richard
What an absolutely fantastic photo, you must be soooo thrilled to have it and thank you for letting us see it.
I have wondered how you were getting on....your search was a particularly enjoyable one to be involved in.
Keep us updated and if there is anything that I (or the others 8)) can help with just let us know.
Very best wishes
Agnes
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Richard: I couldn't read through all 7 pages of the Frey/Lehman saga, hence this query. Is there a John Frey related to your Freys? I moved house last week from Brooklyn and now live in Queens. On the walk to the subway, I noticed a neighborhood World War I monument with names of the dead on it. John J.(?) Frey was listed. No other information.
Speaking of information, have you found anything to add to the story?
Regards,
John
His mark :o :o :o :o
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John,
Work and family stuff have prevented me from doing much lately, so not much new as yet. I'm not aware of any Freys from this family who would have fought as an an American soldier in WW1, however given the twists and turns of this thread, who knows :)
I'm hoping to get pictures of Florence and Fred Frey shortly from the Florence family connections here in the UK
I 'm still hopeful of finding living descendants of the Freys in the States but at the moment I havent the time to chase any leads >:(
Regards Richard
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Hi Richard, just checked in today. Have not found pic of Lehman/Kate Frey yet. Good pic you have. Talk to you later. Your cousin Ken
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Hi Ken and Richard
In the 1930 census living at 173-31 104 Rd, Jamaica, Queens, New York (Charles (Carl), Theodora and Richard are living at 175-13) is Frederick (Friedrich?) Mampel age 31 his wife Barbara age 28 and daughters Marianne age 9 and Gerta (Gerda?)
Also living in the household is Friedrich's sister Ida Mampel age 40.
They were all born Germany and immigration year for all of them is shown as 1928.
Are Friedrich and Ida, the brother and sister of Carl? At the very least, they are bound to be relatives.... ??? :)
I haven't found them in the passenger lists arriving in 1928 (+/- 1) but there is an entry for Barbara, Marianne and Gerda returning to the US in 1935, relatives name is Friedrich Mampel, so he obviously didn't travel at this time.
Ken, can you give some names of your Mampel's.... :)
Agnes
It's been years, Ida and Fred (Fritz) is Carl's sister and brother my great aunt and uncle, Barbara is Fred's wife, Marianne and Gertie are their daughters Carl's nieces. Marianne married Keith Klos who worked for the L.I. Press. Marianne, Keith, Fritz, and Babbett (Barbara), lived on Lexington Ave. in Franklin Square, NY on Long Island. Marianne had no children Gertie also was married and lived on Long Island and had two or three kids. Last time I saw any of them was the '70s. So, they all connect as my direct bloodline.
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Dear Richard, I read your message today about the Frey's in Manchester who had Carl, Lizzie and Bertha Volkert staying/visiting with them.
I am a distant relative of the Volkert's... in that Carl (real name Leonhard Michael Volkert born in Brehmen on 20 Oct 1868, Lizzie (Emma Luisa born in Lichtel u. Mergentheim on 4 Mar 1876) and Bertha (Bertha Elisabetha b in Brehmen 1 Jan 1871) are all children of Johann Georg Michael Volkert (b 21 Mar 842 in Althausen near Bad Mergentheim) and Katharina Luisa Riegler (b 3 Jul 1844 in Brehmen).
(The Germans from the area are often known by their middle names, and swap first & middle name order. Carl had 3 different names that he went by according to his death records. The 1939 UK register has Carl with Leonard's correct date of birth. Lizzy's is out by 2 or 3 years.
I descend from the elder brother of Katharina Luisa Riegler, his name was Andreas. (Andreas' birth was illegitimate, but Katharina's father Phillip Georg Riegler swore an oath to the church, when Andreas was an adult, that he was also Andreas' father).
You'll know that the Frey's were pork butchers. There was also a Herman Volkert in the area who was a pork butcher that was a few years younger. Unfortunately the Ancestry birth records in Mergentheim don't appear to be available to view after 1876 and I think Herman was born in 1877 or 1878. I have a DNA link to a woman with the surname Collins who descends from Herman.
Was it Sandbach that the Frey's came from (I haven't got my record open). I couldn't really figure out where that was. But I thought that there must be some connection to Mrs Frey, for all those Volkert kids to be staying with them... unless it was more distant to Carl/Leonard's wife Marie Stier.
The village of Brehmen is north of Schweigern, south of Nassig. I have scans of original records from the Evangelic Church in Adelsheim-Boxberg stating that the above births were in Brehmen whereas Ancestry scans say they were in Mergentheim. From what I can work out, Mergentheim was the central area (i.e. the big town with a castle and square & surrounding area) that held an official copy of birth records & from whom permission to marry was required, whereas Adelsheim-Boxberg was a bit closer & maintained its own records too.
I couldn't find Mrs Frey's maiden name.
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Also,
Emma Luisa Volkert married Johann Georg Lorenz Michael Breuninger (born 23 June 1874) and I just noticed that surname in your list
- Brennden (New Zealand)
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Brennen,
Now you have me looking again at this, havent for ages.
Interesting to see that Carl/Leonard stayed put in the UK, whereas all the remaining Freys went off to New York. I'm fairly certain some of the men were detained during WW1 but all records of German detainees have been destroyed. Alot were shipped off to internment camps on the Isle of Man.
Looking at Carl/Leonards marriage certificate to Marie Stier, I see that George Frey along with Lizzie Volkert are witnesses in 1892.
Nice to see the 1939 register Leonard/Carl with his two daughters, who also get a mention in his will
Regards
Richard.
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Brennden,
Looking at Herman Volkert, looks like he is with sister Elizabeth Margeret who marries a Charles Peck in 1901 census . Elizabeth states father to be a Leonard Volkert (engineer)
He goes on to marry in 1904 to Eleanor L J Cossentine. has a family and dies in Manchester in 1946 having put a Henry in front of Herman on name . He is also in the 1939 as Henry Herman Volkert.
So alot of Volkerts from the same area of Germany in the same area of Manchester but the only way to link them would be to prove father Leonard is a brother or some relation to Johann , father to Bertha , Lizzie and Carl /leonard.
Regards
Richard.