RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: PaulaToo on Saturday 18 November 06 16:48 GMT (UK)
-
I KNOW she wasn't found under a gooseberry bush, or even in the cabbage patch, but can anyone find a christening for Mary Ann Byles.
She enters my family tree with an IGI marriage to Thomas Richard Smith, the Labourer(nightman)
26 DEC 1825 at St Marys, Portsea, Hampshire.
On the 1841 census she is with Thomas and family at Silver St Portsea.
Both Thomas and Mary put their ages as 35, and are 'of this county' on later census returns they put that they are from Portsea.
So it should be easy to find her christening...(I've given up on Thomas Richard Smith, well, you can only push your luck so far.)
Problem, although there are several Byles christened about the right time, including a Mahala and Thirza, both names that Mary Ann used for her children, I can find no trace of Mary Ann herself.
Does anyone have any suggestions? Can anyone find the woman?
Look come on, Mary Ann, give yourself up. I know you were born, I'm here, so you must have been.
Many thanks,
Paula
-
Hi Paula
I see on 1851, that Mary Ann's approx YOB is 1806 - I didn't check the other later ones, but presume it's abt the same all the way thru.......
On the IGI the births or Christenings you mention : Thirza & Mahala - parents listed as Samuel BYLES and Ann.....I see these:
Thirza 1809
Hannah Billinger 1810
Mahala 1812
Adam 1813
Martha 1814
Martha Bassett 1816
Louisa 1818
William 1822
Valentine 1825
They seem to correspond with a marriage 31 May 1803 of a Samuel BYLES and Ann BILLINGER also a St Mary's Portsea Island, well the first 7 anyway, and one possibility I wondered about was maybe Mary Ann was born wrong side of the wedding-band and therefore listed as BILLINGER? Though again, btw marriage 1803 and Thirza abt 1809, one would expect at least one child born............
IGI : Baptisms Batch # C062613 - years 1805 - 1812, tThe same batch Thirza, Hannah & Mahala are in.... Searching all B's for anything remotely like BYLES/BILES/BEELS/BEALS/BILLINGER...
And come across:
Mary Ann BOYLES
Christened 3 Jun 1805 St Marys, Portsea Island
Parents: Samuel BOYLES and Ann
There are NO other births in Hampshire on IGI to this combination of BOYLES parents - which is good! Take out that "O" playing gooseberry ;D and I rather think we may have found her!
Cheers ;D
AMBLY
-
Ambly.....what can I say?
Well I can start by saying thank you, so THANK YOU. :D
On her daughter, the dreaded Eliza Ann's birth cert it looks like Mother Mary Ann Smith, formerly Bayles.
That was the name I first went with.....no joy. Then on finding the marriage and discovering it was Byles, along with all the other Byles that were about at the time, I was baffled as to where Mary Ann had gone. It's so easy...when you see it there Boyles/Byles/Bayles.
SOMEONE didn't know how to spell the name. Nearly everyone is using Byles but a couple of other characters have their own variations. Magic.
Thank you so much.
Well, that's that line back to Abraham Bassett, baptised 1722, Portsmouth, and his father Abraham and mother Elizabeth, who would probably be just into the 1600s.
Brilliant. I had them all there ready to be grafted onto the tree, but Mary Ann was being difficult.
I feel this is the news I have been waiting for all week.
Yahoooooooooo!
-
Hi Paula
If this is on the right track.....have to say it does look good especially seeing:
1841: Samuel and Ann BYLES and dau Martha B, with married Hannah & Louisa; and married Thirza next door in 1841 Census,
1851: widowed Ann BYLES with widowed dau Louisa & dau-InLaw Lettice - and married dau: Martha B next door -
Would you like the details to keep at the ready Or maybe you've had them a while ready to graft if need be , as you say ;D ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Ambly, you're making me dizzy. :o
I have Mary Ann Boyles/Byles/Bayles covered, now census and all,
but her parents are only names and dates, I have no census returns for them.
Oh yes please, wheel them out.
Thank you so much.
-
Hi Paula ;D
Trundle, trundle............
1841: Portsea Town., Landport & Southern, Hampshire
Hundred of Portsmouth Borough
REF: HO107/414/3, Folio 9, pg13
ADDRESS: Grigg Street
//
Samuel BYLES 63, Shoe M. - Y
Ann BYLES 59 - Y
Martha BYLES 20 - Y
/
Hannah McLAUKLON 30, Seamans Wife - Y
John McLAUKLON 5 - Y
Martha McLAUKLON 7 - Y
Louisa NORRIS 21, Seamans Wife - Y
Louisa NORRIS 11 mths - Y
//
then next door:
//
Henry PACK 31, Shoe M - Y
Thirza PACK 31 - Y
Henry PACK 8 - Y
Edwin PACK 7 - Y
Jacob PACK 6 - Y
Thirza PACK 5 - Y
Samuel PACK 3 - Y
Sarah PACK 8 months - Y
/
Johnson HARPES Royal Marine - N
Matilda HARPES 22 - N
//
1851: Portsea, Hampshire
REFHO107/ Piece1659- Folio183- Pg34 & 35
ADDRESS; 24 Grigg Street
Head: Ann BYLES 68, WIdow, Needle? Woman, b Landport Hants
Dau: Louisa NORRIS 33, widow, Needle? Woman, b Portsmouth Hants
G-Dau: Louisa NORRIS 10, b Portsmouth Hants
G-SOn: Henry NORRIS 7, b Portsmouth Hants
Dau: Lettice BYLES 27 ? marr, Seamans Wife, b Pembroke Wales
Lodger: Henry EARNEST? 23?, marr, --------------? , b Portsea Hants
Lodger: Charlotte EARNEST? 20? , marr, --------------? , b Ireland
and Next door
ADDRESS: 25 Grigg STreet
Head: Henry BALSOM 39?, G. Pennener??, b Portsmouth Hants
Wife: Martha BALSOM 33?, b Portsmouth Hants
Son: Henry BALSOM 5?, b Southsea, Hants
Dau: Martha BALSOM 2 months, b Southsea, Hants
Visitor: George HOSKINGS 30, marr, Groom, b Chichester Sussex
Visitor: Claudina HOSKINGS 25?, marr, b Milford Hants
Visitor: Edwin ELGAR 18, unm, Painter, b Milford Hants
The 1851 writing is messy and hard to make out in places, and the
enumerator has made thick-handed check marks thru the ages.
FREEBMD marriages: Portsea Island
Louisa Saunders BYLES & Henry NORRIS in 1838
Martha Bassett BYLES & Henry BAL_O_ in 1845
Valentine John BYLES & Lettice JONES in 1850
IGI MARRIAGES
Thirza BYLES & Henry PACK in Alverstoke 1832
Hannah BYLES & John McLAUGHTON in St Marys Portsea 1834
Hannah BYLES or MC LAUGHLIN & John PAGE in St Marys Portsea 1851
These were fun to find - a close-knit family!
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Ambly, you're a little gold star, you really are.
That is all so interesting and I shall print it off and put it in the 'Eliza Ann Files' No X Files was ever like the Eliza Ann Files, I can tell you.
That woman drove me, and my my friends crazy trying to find her. She married a bloke called Henry Moore and I thought everything was fine. But it wasn't. Henry figued in only a small way in her life and in no way in mine. A series of notches on bedposts followed. We stalked her through the years and finally nailed the culpret who was my Great Grandfather as one Callus William Webb. Then I couldn't find the marriage for her daughter, my Gran Harriet...I did in the end...She finally decided to marry the father of her children when the youngest of those children, my mother, was 7 years old.
So I thought things couldn't get worse and was delighted to find that I could trace the Byles back to Abraham Bassett in 1722. I should have known better. Eliza's mother Mary Ann just wouldn't be found.
Now, you've found her for me, and given me the census returns for the family. Shoe Makers? That just about sums that family up...a load of cobblers ;D
Thanks Ambly, now I'm glad I finally cracked and screamed for help.
You're a good un.
Paula
-
Aw Shucks! Thanks Paula - and you'r very welcome. ;D
What an interesting story - sometimes the tales of how people finally track down their elusive & colorful forebears are just as facinating and often as funny as the tales of the ones they catch! ;D I have to say, I had to giggle a little, when you match the word "Culprit" with the name of your Gt Gf " Callus"!
Wondering out loud only, why Gran didn't marry until the youngest was 7 - was there a first & living wife in the background....
Here's to happy hunting and many more pesky anscestors to keep us lively!
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Hi Ambly.
I think the dreaded Eliza Ann, whose name has become synonymous for everything you dread happening in genealogy, and callous Callus William Webb deserved each other. They were a right pair.
Yes, it's a ??? about Grandmother Harriet and her William. If they had gone that long, one wonders why they finally got married.
In 1881 William is at home with his mum Martha in Pembroke, in 1885 he is merrily producing in Basingstoke with Gran Harriet.
In 1881 she is with her mum in Reading.
It doesn't give much time for either of them to find someone and get married.
Family story has it that he hit his mother and was shown the door.
Family story has it, Harriet and William ran away to get married.
Family stories might have a bit of truth in them. Only a bit.
He was a tailor, and the GWR might have brought him to Reading to start a new life.
I can only think they ran away to Basingstoke NOT to get married, and came back with four kids saying, 'See, you couldn't stop us.'
It is only after the dreaded Eliza Ann has died that they did the 'running away to get married' act, and they only went to the next parish.
Can you imagine the vicar if they had gone to their own church....
'But Mrs Mathias, you MUST be married already, I have christened all you children and you are one of the ladies in the Mother's Meeting group.'
I can tell you, Ambley, this is the fun branch of the family. They are always good for a twist, or a laugh, or just to tear your hair out over.
Thanks for taking interest,
Paula
-
Hi. I realise you posted this info 13 yrs' ago, but I am chancing sending you a message. My great great grandfather was Valentine John McLaughlan Byles. I have gleaned a lot of info from your posts and conversations from ambly and andipandi. I would be very grateful if you could contact me please so we can compare notes. Many thanks.
Clare
-
Has it really been 13 years?
Doesn't time fly when you're stuck in the archives!
Nice to hear from you Clare.
Breath a sigh of relief that you are related to Valentine John and not my blessed Eliza Ann and her callous Callus William Webb.
My Grandmother Harriet (who eventually married William Mathias) had a fear of the sea claiming that too many people had been drowned in her family. I must admit that I haven't found one yet, but she was Eliza's daughter and we know that lies came easily to that lady.
Have you found any drownings from your angle. Would be nice to find just one ... or not, because in cases like that it is always the wrong one, if you follow me.
What ever, love to hear from you.
Paula
-
Hi, Paula. Lovely to hear from you.
I'm not as familiar with the whole family history as you are, but, no, I haven't come across any drownings. Maybe it's an assumption because they were seafarers?
I've just accessed Valentine John's naval records.
I was wondering what happened to his 2nd wife, Jane Bureau's hubby, Charles Abraham? Do you know? Although there are records of his birth and marriage, there is no information whatsoever of the rest of his life. I believe he was in the Royal Navy, but there's no record there, either. Perhaps he emigrated?
Another mystery is whether or not Lettice, Valentine John's first wife, was a relative of Jane? Although Jones is a very common name in Wales (I'm Welsh and live in Wales), it's not a common name in South Pembrokeshire, which is known as "Little England beyond Wales". So it seems highly unusual that 2 young women from a tiny hamlet there, both called Jones, would have ended up in Portsea, both married to RN sailors.
There seems to be some speculation that they may have been sisters, although it was illegal to marry a deceased person's spouse until 1907, but there are examples where it did happen. Jane and Val John did marry eventually in 1875,but interestingly, they went into England to do so.
I'm interested in your Mathias and John surnames. Both are Welsh surnames. I think Mary John was sister to Jane (?) and her daughter (!?) married a Byles? Mary also came from the same hamlet as Jane and Lettice, ie Cuffern.
Where/how does the Matthias family fit in? Interesting to note they seem to have originated in Pembrokeshire, too.
Do you have a family tree you would be willing to share, please? Or any photos/documents? I'm happy to pay/reimburse for any info, or order any certificates if you want any, etc.
They seem to have been a very "interesting" (!) family, don't they?
I believe Valentine John is supposedly descended from a seafaring family, but I couldn't find any evidence of that.
Thank you so much again for getting in touch. I would be very grateful for any info or points of note. Cheers. Clare
-
I too have picked up on the research of andipandi. Valentine John Byles and Jane were my great great great grandparents. I am descended from their daughter Rosetta, born in Bangor. The Bessie Rees referred to at one point was my grandmother's sister. I am just starting to research back my grandmothers line. I come straight down the female line from Jane, all of us born in Pembrokeshire. I was interested in exploring another Family Story told me by my grandmother. This was that my GGGGM had run away with the coachman and lost her fortune. I had assumed this was an elopement. But now i find Jane, already married, ran away with a coastguard. The english words had got muddled over time but the actual bones of the story are there. That helps out AMBLY who wonders if she did just that. I shall be doing more work on this.
-
Hi. So sorry to have taken so long to reply. I haven't been checking this for ages! Very interested to hear more about the Byles family that you have reported. Amazingly, within the last couple of months a lady called Louise, originally from Wales, but who has lived in Malaysia for the past 25 years, and I have connected on MyHeritage, which I'd just joined, and she is a 4th-6th cousin, sharing a common ancestor, ie Jane. In the last month we have made a huge breakthrough and broken down the brickwall that was Charles Bureau! We are so excited. If you're interested in knowing more about his family from Quebec, please let me know. Anyway, here's the (almost!) drowning you were looking for! We found out through posts on rootschat that he was killed on board ship in a terrible accident in 1853, whilst serving with the Royal Navy. 7 poor souls died altogether, and as it happened in Portuguese waters, they consigned them to the deep that same evening. No death certificate was ever issued (which is why there's no public record of his death). And, something I consider horrible, due to the military and naval policy in those times, their RN records were erased after a few years, which is the reason that we could never find his RN service! Charles Ferdinand Bureau was Jane Jones's first husband. Lettice Jones who was Valentine John's first wife, was Jane's sister. Some family trees on MyHeritage and Ancestry have mixed up Lettice and Jane, not realising Lettice died in 1855, but showing Val J still married to her and having all 7 of their children, and her being called Lettice Jane. When Val J was widowed in 1855, he was left with one very young son, Samuel, named for Val J's father. Jane was also left with a little son, Charles Abraham Bureau. So, not long after 1855 it seems Jane and Val J set up home together, and eventually had 5 children together. They moved from Portsea to Bangor in N Wales, where Val J became a coastguard(!!). Some of the children were born there, including Rosetta in 1859. I expect you know this history, now? They eventually moved to Pembrokeshire, where the other children were born, and where Val J died in 1900, followed by Jane in 1901. I know quite a bit about the Byles family, ancestors etc, but Louise and I are struggling to find Jane and Lettice's family. It's always more difficult to trace Welsh ancestors than English ones, as most of the Welsh are non-conformist, and as such, their birth, marriage and death records are only in their chapel's register. A lady in Pembrokeshire archives is helping us, but no luck so far, though a couple of guesses. We know Jane and Lettice's father was Thomas Jones (named on both marriage certificates), and he died in 1850, between April when Lettice married, and July when Jane married. Seems Mary John was a sister, too, as previously mentioned. Looking for the right Jones in non conformist Wales??? A very tall order. I'm very interested to see you are a younger generation than myself and sister; also v interested to hear about your relationship to Bessie Rees, our grandfather, Albert's sister. I can't find her after 1921 census. Family story says she was a suffragist, who later became the Liberal Party political agent in Aberdare. But I can't find any info on this. As you will no doubt know, Rosetta and the children who still lived at home in Pembrokeshire, all went to live with the oldest brother, John, in Aberdare. It seems Rosetta's hubby, John Howell Rees, didn't go with them. He moved to live with his daughter Annie Cousins, in Merthyr Tydfil, Wales, and sadly died in the Workhouse there in 1921. I'm guessing you know about Workhouses? They usually had a hospital attached, and it's where poor people were treated, and sometimes subsequently died. Rosetta died in 1940, her last years spent living with her son, Harry, who'd been a butcher. Anything further info you can share about the family, would be gratefully received.
-
Hi, again, Paula. I just remembered another family story I wanted to share. Don't know if you've heard it before? My mother told us that side of the family claimed to have Flemish ancestry. Nice thought. Don't know if it's true. Possible of course with Pembrokeshire's history. Have you done a DNA test? My sister Caroline did one about 6 years' ago. We therefore have multiple DNA matches in the form of cousins, ranging from 2nd-3rd, to about 8th. My family tree research is under Brown family, but Caroline's is under Rees.
Cheers. Clare
-
Hi, again! Think I've been unintentionally patronising! For some reason I thought you were American, hence my detail as to what a Workhouse was. Sorry! C