RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Lones on Wednesday 08 November 06 11:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi Folks
I was extermerly lucky on the weekend and was given a Medallion that was given to the family when my Great Uncle William Henry Smith died at sea on his way to the war. I have emailed the war museum in Canberra to try to get more information on the medallion and my Great Uncle. But being the impatient person I am, I though I would see if there are any rootschatters who know anything about these medallions and how/when etc they were presented. Did they just mail them out etc.
Any info would be really appreciated
I have attached a scan of the medallion, it is about 5 inches in diameter. It is really something, I have no photos or anything else much on this particular Uncle and would love any info at all.
Cheers
Lones
Sorry, that was a bit big, I have made it smaller
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they are known as Death plaques ( or death pennies) they were sent out to the soldiers next of kin after the war accompanied by a certificate
(http://harribobs.smugmug.com/photos/24359804-M.jpg)
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Thanks Harribobs
Were all the certificates worded the same do you know? I have saved the one you posted in case. My Uncle was Australian, did all the countries use the same certificate? If my family got one of those it has long since gone. I was extremely lucky to get the medallion.
Thanks for your help
Lones
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Hi Lones
these often come up on ebay for sale ???
I have often searched for one that I know one of my ancestors would have received (needle in a haystack - but I couldn't help it ) it must be a Genealogists Trait - never to give up searching.
Anyway, to cut a long story short - over time I came in contact with a long lost 2nd cousin who I didn't know existed and low and behold he had the medallion/plague and sent me a photo of himself holding it.. (I have to admit I would have loved for it to be in my hands) - but was still happy that it still existed and was looked after..
Congratulations - you have something precious ;D
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Thanks Harribobs
Were all the certificates worded the same do you know? I have saved the one you posted in case. My Uncle was Australian, did all the countries use the same certificate? If my family got one of those it has long since gone. I was extremely lucky to get the medallion.
Thanks for your help
Lones
hi
yes the certificate would be the same for all commonwealth countries
as jax says these come up for sale quite regularly, unfortunately as they are only named ( rather than having service numbers as well) so it isn't always possible to tie them down to individual soldiers if they have a common name
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Medallion also known as (at least here in Ireland) as dead man's penny. They were posted out to next of kin and I have seen a website which goes into details of where minted, dates minted, etc. which I will have to look up later.
For Australian WWI records are on-line- see National Archives of Australia website- in most cases you can view scanned documents and towards the end of the file it often says when and to whom medallion was sent.
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Thank you Guys very much
I do appreciate that I have been honoured with something special. I almost cried when my Aunt gave it into my keeping. I cannot understand anyone putting them on Ebay???
I have sent for his photo and records from the government, I have his enlistment papers that have a hand written message to say he died at sea. I hope to find out what kind of illness he died from.
Hobbibobs I will keep a copy of the certificate you posted, thank you, and I am very fortunate this one stayed in the family then as William Henry Smith is a very common name, but I know it was definately his.
Aghadowey, I will check out that website to see if I can get a copy of that regarding this one.
Jax, you never know one day you might be honoured as the protector of your medallion too, my aunt has two children, but neither of them was interested and she wanted someone to have it who would really appreciate and take care of it for what it is, not an ebay item. So fingers crossed, it could end up yours yet.
Thanks again guys, I cannot wait until I get a reply from the war record people, but I appreciate you all taking the time to share your knowledge with me
Cheers
Lones
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Its been a pleasure
(and yes my fingers, legs, arms and eyes are all crossed ;D )
jax
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Hi Jax
You must find it very hard to do everyday things, going around with all that crossed ;D
I understand though, best of luck to you, I hope you end up lucky like me. I still can't quite believe it, I keep pinching myself. I am going to frame it up nicely and put it on my wall.
My Aunt also gave my Mum the brooch she was given when my father was in WWII. It was given to Australian women and had a small metal strip on the bottom with a star on it. The women where given them when their men were at war, a star for each son, brother etc. My Aunts only had one star as she only had one brother in the army. My Dad wasn't married then so she was his next of kin. Mum was very pleased and I had my eye on it, but I think my younger sister will want that and I can't have everything, so I scanned it and have a lovely picture to represent it now. Perhaps your relative will let you do that with your medallion, they do come up quite nicley.
Good luck with your medallion, I hope you get lucky
Lones
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Website is www.cwgc.co.uk (click on Memorial Plaques down left part of page). From this you should be able to find when and where medallion was made, etc.
Did you look up actual records online yet? This will give details of medals and plaques, etc.
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Thanks Aghodowey
I have looked up the Australian records and found he died of menangitis. I also found the ship he was embarked on. I have printed off copies of everything I found on him and his two brothers who survived the war. The poor love didn't get any medals or distinctions, he didn't live long enough to arrive. He is listed on the honour roll and I have found the site listing where his plaque is in Canberra, but I assume he would have been buried at sea. I will check that out with the officials at the war office (or whatever it's called).
I will check out the site you have listed too, thank you for that. I really do appreciate all of the help you have given me. I also found copies of the letters etc that were sent to the families, so have taken copies of them to see if anyone in the family can recognise them to see if anyone has the originals, not holding my breath on that one though
Thank you once again
Regards
Lones
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National Archives papers (website I sent earlier) should list in his file when and where buried. There are probably lots of men with the same name but if you have service number or birthdate you can narrow down the search to correct soldier. Good luck.
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Hi Aghadowey
Yes I have looked up his records and found he is listed under Cemetery or Memorial details as "Chatby Memorial, Alexander Egypt". So if it is only a memorial, he probably was buried at sea, but it doesn't actually state that. I will see what the war record people send me and go from there. I also got the ship he was embarked on and the list with his name on it, so am really stoked. I had no information on him at all and now I am getting heaps. I feel really obliged to do this now as he appears to have been forgotten by everyone and we can't have that. So I am resurrecting him so to speak so he can have his own page in the family album.
I really do appreciate all of your help, I didn't even know where to start and now I am really happy with everything that I have found. I also expect more information when I get my reply from the officials so who knows, he may need two pages!!
Thanks again
Lones
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Think the records you are referring to are different than the oines I mean. Scanned copies of the actual records (could be 30 or more pages) are available online at National Archives of Australia website. They usually show enlistment forms, medical records, medal records, sometimes Will is shown or letters from relatives, etc. Have you looked at that site????
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Hi
Well apparently not!! I went to the National Archives site and did a search and I never found any of that, only what I have already mentioned, nothing like 30 pages. I have his enlistment paper, which he signed (brilliant) and his ship listing, the roll of honour thingy, his memorial place, a copy of the particulars required for the roll of honour and that's it. Nothing else came up. Where should I be searching? I did the search under his name and his service number 442. I also tried his series number B2455. Can I try anything else, or was I on the wrong site? Sorry to sound dense, but I didn't get anything like what you are refferring to. I would love to get that stuff, as I have three other great uncles who served in that war too and I could get their information as well.
Please help. Pretend I am a complete imbicile and take me by the hand, you know, A goes onto B, B goes onto C, that kind of thing. I really would appreciate your help, is there two National archive websites maybe?
Lones
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trooper william,henry smith
13th australian light horse[the devils own]raised at broadmeadow,march 1915
442
age 32
born,chetwynd,victoria
enlisted,haitchie,victoria
educated,maude,new south wales.
occupation,farmer
father,william,henry smith,haitchie post office,victoria.
died of meningitis on board a troopship on his way to egypt,buried at sea.
left australia,28-5-15
mack
arrived in egypt,29-6-15
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Hi Mack
Thank you, I have found almost all of that, but not the bits about buried at sea and where he was educated. What record was that on and did you come across any of the items aghadowey mentioned? I only got very limited information and it was all over the shop, so to speak. I had to do several searches and each one gave me a different bit of info. I really suck at this war searching stuff!!! ???
Can you please tell me what did you search under and where?
Thanks Mack
Lones
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Lones- found file online. Go to National Archives of Australia website: //naa12naa.gov.au
Next, click on "Guest"
Put in "William Henry Smith Chetwynd"
One result comes up- go to this and click on digital record.
There are 42 pages.
p.4- "Died at sea on Board SS Persic on 16/6/15 of pneumonia and meningitis"
p.9- embarked at Melbourne "Persic" 28/5/15
p.11/12- error on Chatbyand and Kantara Memorial Register
p.14- receipt for memorial plaque (signed by father 16/8/22)
p. 17- letter from father re: property
p.18- detailed letter re: illness/death- place of burial Indian Ocean, reported sick 7 am, died 10am (also see p.34)
p.41- medals
p.42- memorial plaque
You should also be able to look up your other Australian relatives on the site. Happy reading.
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Oh Aghadowey
Thank you, thank you. How dumb am I, I had been to that site 3 or 4 times and had printed out the first page, not realizing there were 42 pages. Doh!!! I am sorry to be such a pain, but rest assured you have made this little Aussie very, very happy. What a find!!! I shall be in this site all day now getting all the info off for all my boys.
Thank you all so much for all your time and trouble. I am eternallly grateful.
Very best regards
Lones
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The Australian WWI records online are fantastic. Glad you found the site and can now search for the rest of your family.
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Hi Guys
I just spent a wonderful day going through all the records. What a brilliant site!! One on my Great Uncles was docked two days pay for trotting a horse on a cobbled street?? ??? I couldn't believe it, and another was treated twice for being gased, which I never new about. These records are brilliant. I now have do much more information on them than I ever dreamed of, thank you all so much. I am really stoked.
My appreciation goes to all of you who helped me, thank you again, so much
Lones
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Hi Folks,
I do some voluntary photography for the British War Memorial Project and I wondered why, in many cases, the 'Dead Man's Penny' mounted on gravestones was missing from it's mount.
I must admit, it never crossed my mind that these could have been prized off by someone in order to make a few bob on Ebay.
How low can people stoop?
I personally find it appaling.
Anne.
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Hi Folks,
I do some voluntary photography for the British War Memorial Project and I wondered why, in many cases, the 'Dead Man's Penny' mounted on gravestones was missing from it's mount.
I must admit, it never crossed my mind that these could have been prized off by someone in order to make a few bob on Ebay.
How low can people stoop?
I personally find it appaling.
Anne.
the plaques don't have a mount and they are VERY rarely mounted on gravestones (i have never seen one having visited more cemeteries than most)
so please don't be under the misapprehension that every plaque on ebay is stolen
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I maybe didn't explain myself very well . . . .
In Scotland it's very common to have these DMP's mounted on gravestones.
I have found many where it's quite obvious that there had been a DMP mounted on the stone - in fact sometimes two. (see attached photo).
Maybe having them on servicemen/women's family memorials is only a Scottish tradition?
Anne
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i would have thought that most of the men commemorated on a plaques would also have a standard CWGC headstone, and i don't believe there is an option for adding the plaque
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Here in Canada it is known as "The Dead Man's Penny".
I loaned my great uncle's,this year to the Local Legion for their display.
They kindly had it cleaned and boxed ,me having used it all these years as a "paper weight.
Lady In Ontario
I understand they were not well received.Many were lost in the mail,others outright refused to accept them.Referring to them as :"The Dead Man's Penny".
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I believe that the families of the men had the choice of whether or not they wanted a CWGC stone.
I'm only talking about family memorials, not CWG ones, so I'd agree with you there, but these are all standardised to an extent anyway.
I've found hundreds of servicemen/women in local cemeteries across Stirlingshire who although are listed on CWGC or BWMP , are not listed as having a memorial other than the general memorial plaques in France, Belgium etc.
The CWGC stones are obviously much easier to find when trawling through graveyards or cemeteries but personally, I think that family memorials bring a wee bit more perspective to these brave souls - rather than just a name, rank and service number. I would say, in general, only about 10%-15% of the men I've found have CWGC stones.
I would imagine that eventually all the information from family memorials will be added to both the CWGC and the BWMP site as it's collated and double checked. I know a huge percentage of these won't be buried in these actual lairs but it's nice to see their names in amongst the rest of their family.
Anne
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Oh Aghadowey
Thank you, thank you. How dumb am I, I had been to that site 3 or 4 times and had printed out the first page, not realizing there were 42 pages. Doh!!!
Lones
Lones, you are not alone...I didn't realise either that there were more pages until I read this here. I've just spent the last half hour looking at the records of Patrick Grant Margetts of 23rd Bn Australian Infantry...all 50 pages instead of just the one that I had copied months ago :)
Thank you aghadowey, for putting us straight :) These records are brilliant.
Elaine
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Elaine- glad you were able to find the rest of the pages.
I have never seen any Dead Man's Pennies mounted on gravestones here in Northern Ireland, so perhaps it's just the custom in Scotland. I have seen them in estate auctions where an elderly relative has died and there are either no relatives or no one in the family wants them.
There are lots of mistakes in the CWGC info. A friend contacted them regarding some errors he found about where 2 soldiers' gravestones were located and was told if he could supply details, birth & death certificates, etc. then they would consider making the correction...
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Hi Folks
I too am horrified that people could steal these tributes to bravery from a headstone, it is unbelievable how low some people will stoop. I also have never seen them on a headstone here in australia, I understand the BWMP, but what does CWGC stand for? I had never actually heard of these medallions until ours was handed to me, there was no family story or anything, it was a real surprise, so although these may have been common here once, many of my generation would be ignorant like me!!
Elaine, I am glad this posting has helped you out too, and that I am not altogether stupid. You are right it is a brilliant site and we all owe Aghadowey a huge thank you.
Anne, what wonderful volunteer work you do, that must be both interesting and rewarding, well done. Although you must find it irritating and disappointing when you come across such blatant disregard for the dead.
Rest assured everyone, that our medallion will not be found on ebay. I am mounting it and placing small copies of the letters that came with it beside it in the frame. I will try to ensure if my children don't want it, it passes to a family member who does, but who can ever be sure of ones possessions once one is dead?
Here's hoping
Lones
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Somebody had my grandfather's plaque framed many years ago - the frame is circular and just fits neatly round the plaque, which is protected behind glass. I never got the certificate with it - no idea what happened to that!
It's a bit spooky having a DMP from WW1 with your own name and initials on it! I'm on the local war memorial, too!! :-\
Talk about checking the obituaries before getting out of bed! ???
Regards, Bill
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Hi Bill
I have heard of people who have been named after their dead siblings and they don't like it either, they spend their lives visiting graves with their name on them, pretty intimidating!!
I was going to use a round frame, but then decided I would put small copies of the letters on either side of the medallion, so I will use an oblong frame with three sections, I think. Not really sure yet.
Cheers
Lones
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There are two for sale on eBay now, they are up to £840.
They are for two brothers.
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Lones,
CWGC stands for Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
http://www.cwgc.org
Anne.
P.S. pettsy - I hope they're not the two brothers from the stone I posted a photo of!!!
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Hi Ann,
I saw that grave, that is a terrible thing to do.
I don't know how anyone could do such a thing >:(
I didn't even realise that is what they somethimes did in Scotland.
My five Scottish brothers (g grandfather and his four brothers all died overseas)
I would love to find their Death Plaques on day.
The ones for sale on eBay are now up to £1,022.99
They are for the Tratman brothers it says from the Glos Reg.
With medals etc......
The sellers g uncles.
Pettsy
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The ones for sale on eBay are now up to £1,022.99
That is obscene - I don't think they should be allowed to sell them, they should be returned to next of kin/family or kept in local museums or something..
how awful :(
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The ones for sale on eBay are now up to £1,022.99
That is obscene - I don't think they should be allowed to sell them, they should be returned to next of kin/family or kept in local museums or something..
how awful :(
I agree but then again, if I found one for sale for one of my family, I would buy.
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Thanks Anne
I will know now for future reference. I do agree with Pettsy, it is horrible, but had Great Uncle Williams ended up on ebay, I would have to buy it too, just so it stayed in the family.
I have already made my two daughters swear that when I am gone, if they don't want it, they must find someone in the family who does and give it to them. It is not a sellable commodity, ever, period!! I shall come back and haunt them if they do, they know me well enough to think that I might ( very stubborn, me).
It's great to know that there are people out there who still have enough respect to cherish these wonderful items.
Until last weekend I only had a name for my uncle and that he died on the way to war, nothing else. When I was given the medallion, I did some research on the internet and found out about the scroll and letters and I read the copy of the scroll on the internet. The last sentence states "Let those who come after see to it that his name be not forgotten". That really got to me, and I thought "Well it's all down to me then, isn't it". So I went on the archives site (thanks to aghadowey) and downloaded his record and now I have two large closely packed pages on him. Wow, I am so pleased now that he is not just a name anymore.
I wish everyone could be so lucky with their war ancestors
Cheers
Lones
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a lot of medals were sold by the soldiers themselves,for their silver value [war medal].
bills ref to seeing his name on the war memorial reminded me of the unveiling of a memorial in dukinfield in 1917,six soldiers who were there at the unveiling were later killed in 1918,they ended up having their names added to it,mack
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Hi again
Just an update on Great Uncle William, I found a book on the 13th battalion or the devil's own, called 'My Corp Cavilary' by Doug Hunter and Uncle William is mentioned in it as having died at sea, it also shows an extract from his Captains diary mentioning his death. Doug refers to him as Trooper WH Smith, but in Captain Mitchells diary he writes, "went to see Pte Smith bad with pneumonia". I gather trooper and private are the same for the light hores, like Gunner and private for the artillery, is that right, does anyone know? I would have cut and pasted the whole entry for you to see (It's only five lines), but not sure of copyright so just thought I would let you know he did get recognition in a way.
So you can see I am still busy restoring Uncle William Henry to life. I still haven't managed to find a picture, but I hope to one day.
Mack, that is sad, about those soldiers, we never really do know the future do we? I also understand soldiers selling their medals, some would have came back to very little after the was and if that was the only way to keep the wolf from the door, then more power to them. I just have a problem with grave robbing for financial gain, it gets my goat.
Cheers
Lones
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The ones for sale on eBay are now up to £1,022.99
That is obscene - I don't think they should be allowed to sell them, they should be returned to next of kin/family or kept in local museums or something..
how awful :(
Let's get this is proportion, these plaques were most likely sold or thrown away by the families in the first place, regimental museums are full of these plaques. stashed away in dusty drawers
collectors will research the soldier, document his life and death and preserve his memory