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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: bluemale38 on Wednesday 01 November 06 17:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi anyone have any information about burntisland after extensive research i have got back on my tree as far as bunrtisland, am looking for ways to find folk that never appeaed on a census or any other records that where on scotlands people website, am looking for a hinksman most likely german tha came to fife burntislamd some time after 1760, i do know that the north sea was refered to the german ocean in that time, looking to find a ship captain that came here form germany, and clues etc would be grateful as am in a dead here regards jim
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Hello Jim,
Would Burntisland Cemeteries and Churches (http://www.burntisland.net/churches-cemeteries.htm) be of assistance to you?
Best Wishes,
Christopher
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Hi Jim,
I have Burntisland ancestors, only back as far as the early 1800s so far, but if I can be of help just let me know.
The http://www.burntisland.net website that Christopher has kindly pointed you to is a good one. There is also a Burntisland page on GENUKI: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/FIF/parishes/Burntisland/index.htm
Prue
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hi, prun
well am looking in and around the area for the past few years for my ancestors, i have a john hinksman being born in dysart in 1816 to william hinksman and janet or jessie davidson, i cant find this janet or william anywhere , as the story goes my grandfather found a headstone in Kirkcaldy in the 60s with thename john hinksman dated so am told late 1600s, am descended from a german jew ship captain that came to kirkcaldy and married a local lass if i could find some mention of the name hinksman or with a different spelling in the area it may lead me to find more, have nothing on the janet or jessie davidson i do know that the william hinksman was a marchant seaman so any clues or pointers would be great thanks jim
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Hi Jim :)
I was writing a reply a couple of hours ago when my computer froze up :'( I hope I can remember what I was going to tell you!
I had a look on the IGI to check on your John HINKSMAN. Found the baptism recorded there, a submitted record, which means that an LDS church member submitted it as part of their own research. It also means you have to double check it, so I went back to Scotland's People to look at the parish registers they have online. Found the baptism, and even better, they now have a link to images of the original documents, so I downloaded the one for John - the relevant bit is attached below for you :)
There are no other HINKSMANs in Fife or even in the whole of Scotland. I think you will find that your John's parents were from somewhere else...possibly England although I'm not familiar enough with the name to be able to tell you where. A search throught the IGI might give you some clues. There are a couple of HINKSMANs listed on the Scotland's People wills database, but both are much later than your current enquiry.
The other thing I was going to mention is, how do you know that John HINKSMAN born 1816 in Fife is your relative? Have you traced your line back to him? It would help us to help you, if you could tell us what you've already got.
Cheers :)
Prue
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Hi Prue.
Wah thats wonderful, Yes Prue the John Hinksman you found there is my relative. I have traced from him to the present day. His Parents Willliam Hinksman and Janet Davidson where born in scotland at least the Janet Davidson was William is down as being a Merchant Seaman. I did wonder when i was doing this if John Hinksman Parents where born in outside of Scotland. But what i found through research and taking to older members of family is as follows. A German deep sea captain arrived in Scotland, he was thrown off his ship for Keel hauling his crew, i believe this would have been John Hinksman grandfather. the name hinksman is very rare in scotland and i suspect it may have been spelt in a different way. I know that the family Hinksman in Scotland are not from England as through my research i have discovered one of John Hinksmans great grandsons still alive in Canada, his story matches same as the one i was told about the german sea captain, there also seems to be some Jewish connection.
I have been looking for John Hinksman parents somewhere in Scotland for the last few years without success. I was told that my grandfather found a grave in Kirkcaldy with hinksman on it which i still have to find, i suspect that it was this John Hinksmans father William grave he found.
So i tend to believe different sides of the family that i discovered about this german sea captain arriving in scotland and it would be great if i could find this grave for william hinksman and janet davidson in burnt island or kirkcaldy. The Joh Hinksman wife Elspeth Hutchison also seems to be a hard one to discover, i had her marrying John Hinksman in 1841 in Ceres or largo and dying in 1893 aged 74 a native of st andrews.
Anyway sorry for blabbing on here...... you say the lds member entered this information as part of there own research does there name appear on the record so i can contact them.... thank you very much for your help.
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Hiya Jim :)
If you go to Family Search yourself and go to this search page:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
Type in John Hinksman, year 1816, Region British Isles, Country Scotland and you will find the record I found. If there's any extra info about the submitter and the sources, it will be there. Often though there's nothing helpful unfortunately.
I'm sure you know that the origins of family stories can be lost in the mists of time! The thing to do is keep them in mind, but concentrate on the facts as you research. You can't rely on the family stories being true unless you come across the evidence for them (we've all been guilty of that :-[ )
I searched on Scotland's people but couldn't see a marriage for John's parents, nor any other children. It might be a case of the surname being spelled in various different ways. I noticed that Family Search throws up HINXMAN, HINCKSMAN, HINKSMANN as well as HINKSMAN. It would be worth you buying some credits on Scotland's People and trying out some Soundex searches.
Where did you find mention of William Hinksman's occupation, and Janet Davidson's birthplace?
And where does the Burntisland connection come in?
Cheers
Prue
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Thanks i will try that. i have spent a fair amount on scotlands people website to find this william hinksman and janet davidson. i know family stories can be well far fetched sometimes, but what i have found through researching my line i came across two seperate families connected to this hinksman line, one from dundee and one from canada, both told me the story about this german jewish sea captain arriving in scotland, bear in mind that i didnt tell them about this as i knew stories can get lost or re arranged, but but confirm that they both had this story in there past with out myseklf saying a thing, and well i made contact with these folk and they had the same story in there family background before i came along. i will try and look again thanks for your help.
On the burnt island topic both these families had the story of burnt island in there past as well, also my grandfather did tell me that he had founf a grave for john hinksman in burnt island many years ago, sadly he past before i got into this. i do think that the story is true as i do know that the north sea was once called the german ocean and this part of fife traded with germany many years ago.
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I have just had a look at my copy of the 1881 census for Scotland and found the following;
JOHN HINKSMAN FISH DEALER AGE 64 BORN DYSART FIFE SCOTLAND
ESPITH(ELSPETH?) HINKSMAN AGE 63 BORN ST ANDREWS FIFE
DAVID HINKSMAN SON FISH DEALER AGE 37 BORN LARGO FIFE
ANNIE HINKSMAN DAU AGE 21 BORN NEWPORT FIFE
CHARLES BROWN GRANDSON AGE 7 BORN NEWPORT FIFE.
ADDRESS 40 BLACKCROFT CENSUS PLACE DUNDEE FORFAR
sHEILA
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Thanks very much for that i did know of them, the Elspeth her madian name was Hutchison and i knew she was born in St Andrews to a David Hutcheon but for the last few years have found nothing on her mother birthdate or siblings, the Burnt island topic and surrounding areas i have been looking for some time for the John Hinksman who have given me for his father and mother a William Hinksman and Jessie/Janet Davidson i know they are the parents of the John Hinksman, i cant find any details of them in fife although i know they where born and died in fife well so am told, dp you have access to the 1881 census Sheila as am looking for a Jessie Brown nee Hnksman and a Charles Brown married living in forgan or newport there son was the charles brown age 7 you sent, trying to find an address etc so i can go look regards jim
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wILL HAVE A LOOK
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fOUND THEM;
CHARLES BROWN AGE 32 BORN ENGLAND CHINA MERCHANT
JESSIE BROWN WIFE AGE 26 BORN NEWHILLS ABERDEEN
CHARLES D. BROWN SON AGE 2 BORN ABERDEEN
SHEILA
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fORGET TO POST THE ADDRESS 17A WALES STREET census place Aberdeen St Nicholas Aberdeen
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found another couple of Hinksmans on 1881 census;
John Hinksman unmarried age 32 Chemist born Wemyss Fife lodging with Agnes Barrie Widow age 45 address Kirton Street census place Carluke lanark
Henry Brand age 29 Joint proprietor of a Newspaper born Cupar Fife
Jane H.H. Brand age 29 born pittenweem fife
Robert J.Brand son age 1 born greenock
William Brand son 7months born Greenock
Thomas Brand age 12 nephew scholar
ROBERT HINKSMAN AGE 24 BORN NEWPORT FIFE BROTHER IN LAW MASON HEWER
SHEILA
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bluemale38,
In your search for early HINKSMANs and their families, have you consulted the following resources. They are available for purchase or you might be able to consult them at a library or genealogical society.
1. Fife Pre-1855 Deaths CD
This can be purchased from the Fife Family History Society.
Go to:
http://www.fifefhs.org/
and click on Publications.
2. Fife pre-1855 Monumental Inscriptions
There are various volumes by John F. & Sheila Mitchell (they also published volumes for other counties).
These can be purchased from the Scottish Genealogy Society.
Go to:
http://www.scotsgenealogy.com/acatalog/Monumental_inscriptions.html
and click on Fife MI.
The Fife FHS also has some booklets of MIs for sale.
I note from the IGI that HINKSMAN appears in England in the Birmingham region back into the mid-1700s.
Good luck,
JAP
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To Jap amd Shiela.
Thanks for the info very. The Hinksman that appears in English Census results sre not coonected to any Hinksman from Scotland. The Hinksman line that am descended from is from a German Jewish Sea Captain that came to Scotland (Fife) inn the late 1700s and married a Scots Lassie.
I have a Name for His son who was a William Hinksman that Married a Janet/Jessie Davidson, i presume in the Burnt Island Kirkcaldy areas. I have no record on either of them except that they had a son born in Dysart Fife called John Hinksman born 18th June 1816 and his parents are down as William Hinksman & Janet / Jessie Davidson ( no Details on Them), i have been up to Dysart and searched the Graveyards one had some stones blocked off so couldnt find any details on them.
Searched Scotlands People as well and couldnt find nothing on the parents either, there son John Hinksman i have all his kids 9 in fact mariages etc, John Hinksman was married to a Elspeth Hutchinson in 1840 i think in either Largo or Ceres fife but his name is down as Hicksman which was most likely a spelling mistake. Elspeth in down in some census results as being born in St Andrews although i cant find her birth record and parents names as i havnt got her marriage cert yet. her death cert only says that her father was a David Hutcheon.
SHIELA- thanks for the information regarding regarding the Charles Brown, i dont think that is right as am aware that he married a Jessie Hinksman in 1870 in Forgan and that she died in Fife 1890 i think it was, the Charles brown census i was looking for would be in the fife area not aberdeen, they did have a son called Charles Hunter Brown if thats any help.
Thanks to you both regards Jim
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Hi again Jim,
I've read all your various threads on this family.
I mentioned the HINKSMANs in the Birmingham area (who go back into the 1700s) only in passing. But, even so, if I were you I would not disregard them totally given that you don't seem to be able to trace, (with any reliability), your HINKSMANs back past John HINKSMAN b 1816 in Dysart, son of William HINKSMAN & Janet DAVIDSON. Everything else seems to be family folklore which may, or may well not, be reliable. And this means that you do not know with any remote degree of certainty what happened before 1816. So it's necessary to keep a completely open mind.
To digress for a moment, my children have the very rare Scots name LOCHTIE/LOCHTY (and, in one branch, LOUGHTY) in their ancestry - the name can be found in the early 1600s in Aberdour Fife (recorded in Dunfermline records from Aberdour - with very common Scots given names like Robert and John and Janet, etc) though this cannot be joined to the first subsequent appearances of the name in the late 1600s because of gaps in the records. LOCHTIE folklore (from a branch which seems to have split off ca 1700) is that the name came from a 'Scandinavian' seaman who married a local girl in Aberdour, Fife in the late 1500s and LOCHTIE is what the locals made of his name or place of origin. Who knows!!! The Finnish name/place of LAHTI has been suggested as the origin - again, who knows!! I feel sure we'll never know one way or another.
However, if I were you, I'd certainly check out the pre-1855 Fife Deaths CD, and the pre-1855 Fife Monumental Inscriptions booklets for all the names (including spelling variants) of interest to you (especially for the reputed Kirkcaldy MI for a HINKSMAN which you have mentioned). I'd also be searching far and wide in the 1841 census for the HINKSMANs (however spelled - though the loss of Ceres certainly doesn't help) and the DAVIDSONs and the HUTCHINSONs (though David the fisherman in St Andrews in 1841 on FreeCEN seems quite likely).
All the best,
JAP
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Thanks Jap
I shall indeed check out the pre 1855 thanks, i have been doing this research for a few years, i did walk into this with a very open mind, my own side of the Hinksman family has a Folklore story that we where descended from a Dutch Seaman, whicj i took with a pinch of salt. Through my research i discover a relative of the John Hinksman born 1816, his great grandson aged 75 still living in Canada, he was told that his family where descended from a German Jew sea Captain that came to scotland, he told me this before i mention the sea captain link, also discovered a family descended from a Hinksman branch in dundee that also have this German Jew link in there past and have a Hinksman relative buried in the Jewish Graveyard in Dundee. So thats two family branchs that i didnt know about before i started this search that have the kind of same story in there background, seems these two other families connected seem to think that the name Hinksman back then was spelt Hinkesmann or Hinksmann and Hiegsmann. I havnt dis counted the english connected really havnt looked into it too much. But thanks for your tips etc. I do know that the Fife area was trading with germany baltic states during the 1700s.
Am sure i shall find a link or that somewhere, i have found the houses they lived in Abroath, Piitenweem and Dundee and have census results after the John Hinksman and his descendents marriages etc, just this William Hinksman and Janet Jessie Davidson has had me hooked for some time.
Many Regards Jim
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Do you have any marriage certificates or death certificates for jessie and Charles Brown? Or could you give me there ages and what he did for a living?
Sheila
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hello.
yeh i can provide those details thanks. Jessie Brown nee hinksman was born 12 Dec 1845 Fife Scotland died 1895 forgan fife. Charles Brown was born 24 Mar 1845 Kilrenny Fife Scotland died unknown hes was a Sea Captain, he married Jessie hinksman in 02 Dec 1870 Forgan Fife Scotland.
No census details can be found for either of them well none that i can see, have sent alot of time in the area trying to look for there graves.
I did manage to find that they had the following kids that Charles brown and Jessie Hinksman had, but after posting requests and looking for details i couldnt find nothing on them.
Jessie Hinksman and Charles Brown Kids are,
Ethel Brown 1875 Scotland
Georgina Brown Scotland
Charles Hunter Brown 15 Jun 1874 Ferry port on Craig Fife Scotland
Jane Annie Brown 02 Nov 1871 forgan fife
jessie Brown 1873 Scotland
? Brown 28 Dec 1872 Ferry port on Craig Fife Scotland
I have no information on any of the kids if they got married or not, except for Charles Hunter Brown which is as follows.
he married ???
kids
Harold Brown
Murray Brown
Norman Brown
Have no information on Charles Hunter Browns wife or his kids birth dartes etc, i do know that Charles Hunter Brown was also a Capt as his father was , he became an instructer of navigation at Dundee and thereafter head of Navigation at Glasgow School of Martime Studies in the late 1930s.
Thanks for the help very much so i seem to have been stuck on these branch for a fair while now.
Regards Jim
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Hi Jim
This looks like Charles and Jessie in the 1871 Census following their marriage:
Charles Brown 26, ship master, b. Crail
Jessie Brown 25, b. New Gilskie (spl? on transcription), Fife
Grace Millar 50, domestic servant (no info on relatioship)
Address: Cross St, Dysart, Fife
And in 1891:
Jessie Brown 44, ship master's wife, b. Gilston, Fife- New
Ethel Brown 8, b. Newport, Fife
Georgina Brown 6, b. Newport, Fife
Address: 5 James's Square, Forgan, Fife
Regards.
Monica
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Jim
No idea what happened to all the 1870s born children (apart from Charles who is with his maternal grandparents) but this looks like Jessie alone in 1881:
Jessie Brown, ship master's wife, 35, b. Largo, Fife
Isobell Harley, Visitor, Widowed, 64, Field Worker b. Ferry Port On Craig, Fife
Address: Castle Street, Ferry Port On Craig, Fife
Regards.
Monica
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This is the marriage entry of Charles Hunter Brown:
1903 BROWN CHARLES H MURRAY MARGARET RAITT ST MARY DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/02 0168
Explains the name of at least one of his sons ::) You have two MURRAY Brown births in Dundee between 1903-6 (cut off date on SP) and one NORMAN Brown birth for the same period that might be worthwhile you checking out.
Regards.
Monica
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Charles was in Glasgow by 1927 when he shows in the Glasgow Directory for that year: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~glasgow/1927names133.jpg
Regards.
Monica :)
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Thank you very much monica, i shall a look into this, will poss be able to find out more as you have given me a few dates to folloe up and CHarles Hunter Browns wife many regards Jim
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Hi Jim
I'm just double checking that you are aware of this site with your Hinksman genealogy: http://hinksmanfamily.blogspot.com/2007/01/descendants-of-william-hinksman.html
Regards.
Monica :)
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Thanks, That linik is my famly tree thanks i put it net wee while ago.jim
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I am looking for the graves of relatives with the name of Bruce whose graves are in Kirkcaldy although I do not know which graveyard. Some family members were born in Burntisland.
Robert Bruce: 11/2/1871 & wife Isabella (nee Arthur) May, 1844.
Also daughter, Jean who died as a baby 1829, and a second daughter Isabella, date unknown.
Parents of Robert Bruce could be there too who died c.1824 and wife Margaret Bruce (nee Duff)
Regards and thanks for any help provided or suggestions made
Andy Thomson