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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: ormus on Thursday 26 October 06 00:55 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have access to these? I am really desperate! Also I would love to know the dates these cover.
Many Thanks,
Geoff
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Geoff,
A search on RootsChat for Lamberton Toll gets several hits - they might contain information of use to you.
Regards,
JAP
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Hi Geoff
I can access Lamberton Toll marriages 1833 - 1849.
I can also access Berwick Advertiser Irregular Marriages 1808 - 1864.
Who are you looking for?
Regards
Helen K
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Helen you are a gem! These are they:
James Charters to Elizabeth Brown ca 1831.
Robert Stothers (various spellings) to Elizabeth Brown ca. 1843
James Brown to Mary (?) ca. 1825
If you have access to the Berwick data then these too would be helpful:
John Brown to Elizabeth McPherson 8/14/1828
Margaret Brown to Hugh Chrisp 12/27/1818
Isabella Brown to John McNab 11/19/1830
Thanks very much,
Geoff
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Hi Geoff
Sorry, there are none of these marriages recorded in the records I have access to.
Regards
Helen K
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Helen,
Sorry to butt into this topic but I am sure the irregular marriages will be of interest to several people.
Can I please ask you to look up the irr., marriage of a Michael Clyne and Rebecca [Higgins, Docherty, Cleghorn]? I have included all the surnames I have found her under in different certificates. I have their children born c1852 and 1857. Apart from the R.C. church, Berwick entries the only other information I can find for them is in the 1881 census when Michael was in Hatters Lane, Berwick and Rebecca was with her daughter in Eyemouth. I will be so grateful for any information you can find although I don't hold out much hope!
Thanks in anticiption,
Rae
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I also apologise for butting in :) - but what are "irregular marriages"? Is it a Scottish thing?
Gareth
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Thanks so much for trying, Helen. It was a forlorne hope I suppose but I am at a dead end. For the newer posters, an irregular marriage was performed in Scotland in much the same way Gretna Green became famous for; rules were not quite as strictly enforced as in England, and it was cheaper as banns were not required. Working class folks near the border found it a paticularly useful procedure. Lamberton Toll and Coldstream were popular sites in the East.
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Hi Gareth
Yes 'irregular' marriages are a Scottish thing.
Historically when Scotland became a Protestant nation for various reasons the Church of Scotland was the Established church and anyone marrying outside this was considered to have embarked on an 'irregular' marriage.
That is only part of the story though.
Marriage in Scotland is considered a contract and those who declared their intention to marry before witnesses could be considered married without any religious ceremony or blessing of the clergy.
A couple who lived together as man and wife and behaved in all ways as a married couple could also be considered as married without any ceremony or formal agreement.
Naturally the established church did not like it when folks set up house without their approval but the law of the land not only permitted it but also would uphold their rights in a court of law.
There's a fascinating book about it called 'Promises, Promises' written by Leah Leneman. Published by NMS enterprises in 2003.
ISBN No 1-901663-52-3.
The book covers litigation 1698-1830 but it was only recently that all Scots laws on marriage were brought into line with England & Wales.
Its a fascinating read!
There are other factors like the age of consent and residency which play a part too but it starts to get too complicated.
Russell
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Hi Geoff
I can access Lamberton Toll marriages 1833 - 1849.
I can also access Berwick Advertiser Irregular Marriages 1808 - 1864.
Who are you looking for?
Regards
Helen K
could you help me
I am looking for the marriage of James Thompson to Martha Lounton
James born Scotland 1834 Martha born Tweedmouth 1833
there eldest child George was born 1850????? picked this up but not sure he is theirs
I have the birth certificate of Martha their eldest daughter 1855
Elizabeth
Helen K
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Thanks for that edification, folks. So once again Scotland lead the way. If only Wales had its own legal system, but that's another story .... :)
Gareth
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excel and aspin
I'll take a look for your couples tomorrow (Saturday).
Regards
Helen K
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excel
Hi Rae
Sorry, there are no CLYNE/CLINE entries in the records I have access to. I've also checked all of the surnames you gave for Rebecca, but there were no grooms called Michael.
aspin
Hi Elizabeth
Sorry, there are no LOUNTON (or variations of) entries in the records I have access to. I've also checked the James THOMPSON entries, but there were no brides called Martha.
Martha and (possibly) James were in Scremerston, Northumberland in 1851. Have you tried the Marriage Register of St Peter Scremerston ?
Regards
Helen K
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Helen
I have written to Berwick Register office for the marriage of Martha Lounton and James Thompson of Scremerston but they could not find them so I thought they may have been married over the border
How do I get in touch with St Peters Scremerston
Elizabeth
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Helen,
Thank you very much for taking the time to do that look up for me. This couple is very elusive!
Rae
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Hi Helen K.
Could you have a look please for the following, their marriages don't seem to appear anywhere else.
Hugh Aitchison (Coldingham) & Isobel Wait (Duns) about 1835.
James Wait (Duns) & Ann Fairgrieve (Gordon) about 1835.
Thank you.
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Beckey
Sorry for the delay - notifications of posts to my email addy aren't coming through.
I've not found your couples, but this later generation WAIT may interest you:
Newspaper date 9 July 1853
Place Lamberton Toll
Date 1st inst
Mr Thomas DARLING, blacksmith, of Edrom to Agnes, eldest dtr of Mr George WAIT of Cheeklaw near Dunse.
Regards
Helen K
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Hi Helen K,
Thanks for the info, don't think it's one of mine, but will keep a note.
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Hi Helen K,
I cannot find a marriage for Alexander Spence to Christian Bell, bit of a long shot but could it be in your 'irregular list'?
Thanks , Maggie.
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Hi Maggie
I've not found Alexander SPENCE. There are loads of BELL's - any idea of a year for the marriage?
Regards
Helen K
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Thanks for looking Helen, but looking up the dates I have, the marriage may have been before your records start, as a son ( also called Alexander) was born to Alexander Spence and Christian Bell in Sep 1803. This son had an irreglar marriage at Lamberton Toll in 1831 to Isabella Aikman. Do you know if any records of earlier irregular marriages are available?
I have drawn a complete blank for Christian as I cannot find her in census records.
Maggie
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Hi Maggie
Yes, just a bit too early for my records.
This link shows known surviving records for Irregular Marriages and where they are held.
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/famrec/hlpsrch/sumrmar/runmar.html
Regards
Helen K
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Thanks for the info Helen.
Best wishes, Maggie
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Looks good will try again for the marriage of Martha and James Thompson
Elizabeth
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Hello HelenK,
Can you find a Lamberton Toll marriage in 1856 for Robert Brown & Elizabeth Purves? I believe Robert was the son of James Brown and Mary Dunn of Dunbar, father was deceased by then.
Also, in the Berwickshire Advertiser is there mention of an irregular marriage at Coldstream on 16th August, 1833 for James Brown and Mary (Ann?) Dunn?
Thanks
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Hi
Sorry, I only have Lamberton Toll to 1849.
Neither of your couples are recorded in the marriages from the Berwick Advertiser.
Regards
Helen K
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Oh frustrating! But thanks Helen for taking the time to check.
regards,
James
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Hi Helen or anyone who has access to irregular marriages in Berwickshire. I am looking for an irregular marriage between
David MOWATT and Barbara ROBERTSON. The marriage would have taken place between 1808 and 1817. David was a serjeant in the Forfar Militia and station in Berwick-upon-Tweed. Barbara was a resident of Berwick-upon-Tweed.
Most grateful,
10 nicks
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Hi 10 nicks
Sorry, your couple is not recorded in the Marriages from the Berwick Advertiser. Unfortunately my Lamberton Toll Marriages don't start until 1833.
Regards
Helen K
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Hi Helen K or anyone,
I am looking for any info on a John MacDougal and Margaret Denholm married irregularly by Geoege Lamb at Lamberton Toll on 30 December 1813 . Any ideas where to search ? Thanks MCD
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Hi Helen would it be possible to find a Smail.Smeal/ Sharp marriage
Cheers KateNZ ;D
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Hi Helen,
Would it be possible for you to check the irregular marriages registers for Helen Cowe and Edward David Cromwell?
Helen is showing as still living with her family in Eyemouth in the 1841 census so I would expect the marriage to be sometime after that, although they did have a son, Edward David Cromwell born around 1841.
Thanks,
Kenny
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Hello
Would it be possible to please check for:
George WOOD and unknown FORSTER/FORESTER (Agnes, Ann or maybe Elenor? I think Agnes is probably the most likely)
Around 1806? - daughter Elizabeth (first child?) was born Oct 1807, Berwick Upon Tweed
Their children were baptised at Golden Square and Lower Meeting House Presbyterian Churches, and I couldn't find a marriage on the IGI, so I thought they might have married at Lamberton Toll House?
I've already asked on another thread, Berwick Marriage - WOOD, so sorry if you've already seen it. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=321929.new;topicseen#new
Thank you very much for any help. Angelfish x
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Beckey
Sorry for the delay - notifications of posts to my email addy aren't coming through.
I've not found your couples, but this later generation WAIT may interest you:
Newspaper date 9 July 1853
Place Lamberton Toll
Date 1st inst
Mr Thomas DARLING, blacksmith, of Edrom to Agnes, eldest dtr of Mr George WAIT of Cheeklaw near Dunse.
Regards
Helen K
Hi Helen K
New member so not sure how this works!
Are you able to look up John Arris who married Eleanor Tarbit at Lamberton Toll circa 1860. Could they be listed in the Berwick Advertiser?
Lynmarg
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Hello
I'm researching family history and have traced some of our ancestors back to Coldstream, living in the area circa 1800 to 1850.
Census records for 1841 show a James Ewen (aged 30) and family living in Coldstream. James Ewens job is listed as tailor.
James Ewens father, also named James and also a tailor, is shown to be married in Coldstream in 1815 to a Catherine McVity.
I've looked on the Coldstream website (www.coldstream-scotland.co.uk) and note that reference is made to a Mr McEwen (a local tailor - on the website spelt Taylor) who used to conduct marriages in Coldstream as a "priest".
I just wondered whether anyone had any additional information on Mr McEwen (first name, approx. time he lived in Coldstream etc), or knew where the reference on the website may have come from. It may be a bit of a long shot but older family members often comment that there used to be a "Mc" at the start of the Ewen and the fact he was a tailor falls in line with the family trade at the time.
I'm thinking someone may have spotted it on any "irregular" marriage records - or perhaps someone could let me know where I would be able to view such records. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Many Thanks
Mark
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Hi Mark
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Just to help for background, are these the parents of James with some grandchildren in 1851?:
James Ewen 72, flax dresser, b. Sprouston, Roxburgh
Catharine Ewen 66, b. Houndslow, Eng
James Ewen 19, grandson, b. Coldstream
Alexander Ewen 15, grandson, b. Coldstream
George Ewen 11, grandson, b. Dunfermline
Address: Boofies Brae, Dunfermiline Fife
Monica :)
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Hi Mark,
Have the family down in 1841 as Ewson, Jas. 30 Haberdasher, according to IGI married a Mary Sanderson 1829.
Children Jas.9, Alex 5, Barbara 7, Elizabeth 3,Mary 2. Wife Mary 30 Irl.
1851 45 West End, Coldstream.
Mary Ewan H Wid 40 Draper Irl.
Barbara D U 17 Dressmaker Coldstream.
Betsey D U 13 ".
Mary D 11 ".
Jane D 9 ".
Joseph S 3 ".
No one in 1861.
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Hi all
Thanks for the quick responses.
Monica - yes this corresponds with the records that I have. After 1851, James Ewen 19 yrs (my Great Great Grandad) moved to Durham and then finalyl settled in Newcastle (died 1908).
Beckey - records also match - although I have Ewan in 1841 rather than Ewson. Jas and Mary were married in Edinburgh. It would appear as though Jas died quite young.
The family seem to originate from Sprouston - where the name is listed as Ewine, Ewing or Ewan
I'd be interested in finding out whether there is a link with the "priest" Mr McEwen - not sure of the best line of enquiry on this?
Any help appreciated
Thanks
Mark
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Hi Mark,
There is reference in Sprouston M.I. 2001 to two Ewings, a Mary died 14/1/1846 age 66 married to a John Lillie.
A Andrew died 2/11/18?? -----Years also a Christin- ---month his second spouse who died 8/1/1818 (?) aged 68 years, their daughter Jean who died 13/8/181? aged 25 years also a Jean Randal the first spouse of Andrew Ewing who died 25/5/1785 aged 32 years.
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Hi Beckey
Thanks again. Really useful info.
I have Mary Ewing christened 5/9/1781 so this seems to pretty much tie in with her been 66.
Didn't have any info on Andrew so seeing if I can find anything now.
Thanks
Mark
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Hi Helen K and Beckey,
I am new to this site and think the entry on Page 2 of the marriage of James Wait (Duns) to Ann Fairgrieve (Gordon) 1835 might be my Great Great Great Grandfather. I am also interested in Isobel Wait and Hugh Aitchison around the same date.
I have a copy of a Wedding Certificate from Berwick detailing the marriage of Andrew Wait (Blacksmith) from Spittal to Isabella Richardson (Spittal) on 3rd July 1861. Groom's Father is listed as James Wait (Blacksmith).
The name of James and Andrew appear regularly in my family. My Father was called Andrew as was his Father and my Great Grandfather was called James. My Brother's eldest son is called Andrew. Also the family trade during the period in question was either a Blacksmith or Shovel maker.
My Father was Scottish and I lived in Scotland for the first seventeen years of my life. From what I was told as a child the family were connected to the Border's area. Unfortunately now none of them are around to ask the relevant questions.
Anyway what I suppose I am trying to say would there be any other details on the Lamberton Toll records highlighting who James Wait of Duns Father was i.e. Witness. As I mentioned before I am fairly new to this and am at a loss where to go from here.
I look forward to any comments or suggestions you could make. Do you feel I am on the wrong track here?
Kind regards,
Andy
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Hello Andy,
This is a marriage notice from the Berwick newspaper of 3 December 1836 -
At Coldstream on the 26th ult James Wait of Ford Forge, blacksmith, to Margaret Henderson of Hungry House.
It is interesting to note that your family are blacksmiths, because the Black family who owned Ford Forge moved their business to Spittal in 1855, which ties in with the information you have.
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Hi All,
Many thanks for the two replies I have received already. Can't believe how quick the response has been. It certainly gives me more to think about. Again many thanks.
Regards,
Andy
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Hi Andy,
That message from jora seems the more likely candidate, the James & families I have were all land workers/gamekeepers/fishermen, no blacksmiths that I can find.
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William YEOMAN & Esther m. around 1775 - I'd really appreciate it if anyone spots them!
I've drawn a blank with these North Durham ancestors and am supposing an irregular marriage across the border as they were non-conformists and in East Ord for their first child in Aug 1776 and Middle Ord for the second in 1778. So, I'm guessing the marriage took place 1775.
William was born around 1747 and Esther 1754, from their ages at death. I believe that Esther was a BROWN; their son James corresponded with a "cousin", James BROWN.
There is a baptism recorded in Tweedmouth PR of Esther BROWN, dau. of John, of Tweedmouth 22 Nov 1754. There is a John BROWN, "farmer in Letham, Berwickshire" that also fits.
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Irregular marriage of Thomas Noon, seaman, and Margaret Charters at Lamberton around 1856? I would love to have this checked as I need the name of Margaret's dad if possible.
Many thanks in advance,
Geoff in the US of A.
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I have just come across this thread as I am also researching the Ewans. My husband is a direct descendent of James Ewan through his daughter Clara Barbara who married Henry Alfred Irwin and settled in Newcastle. Are we sure James is the son of Catherine MvVity (IGI has McVity Deans) and James snr as that marriage is 1815 in IGI and James gives his date of birth as 1811 so I wondered if he could be the child of a previous marriage by either parent? He was born in Coldstream which is the area his mother hailed from and seems to have stayed there after the rest of the family settled in Dunfermline. The grandchildren who are living with James snr and Catherine and later just Catherine presumably went to live with their Grandparents after the premature death of their father and possibly their mother (does anyone know anything about her all I have is born Ireland?).
I would be glad to learn any more that anyone knows and to invite you to my tree on ancestry.com to share any information I have.
Thanks
Rosemary
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By the way, the transcription of the 1841 census on ancestry has James down as 'Haberdasher' is this incorrect?
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Hi
I have been trying unsuccessfully to fine marriage details for my ancestors William Halliday and Jane Moffat. William was born in Lowick and Jane in Chatton. They married about 1839 and I was wondering perhaps if they married at Lamberton Toll.
Any help is most appreciated
regards
Lynne
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Hi HelenK,
Could you have look please for a Robert Dickson & Alison Wait married ? about 1848, first child (Isabella) born1849 Coldingham.
There is nothing on "Familysearch" or "Scotlandspeople" for a marriage.
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Hi
I would be most grateful if you could have a look for a Lamberton Toll marriage between THOMAS LINDORES and AGNES LAMB in 1849 (no date given). I have got this information from a family tree on Ancestry and would like to verify it.
???
Thanks
Avril
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Hello, I was browsing for information on Irregular marriages at Lamberton Toll as I have ancestors who were married there in 1854 and I came across your thread, I hope you don't mind that I've posted here but could I ask you to do a look up for me please if you don't mind.
I'm looking for Thomas Appleby who married Elizabeth Newton in 1854...I have an announcement of their Golden Wedding in Morpeth Herald 1904 saying they were married at Lamberton Toll 50 years earlier.
Many thanks in advance and apologies once again for jumping in on your thread :)
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Jump in all you want! I never did find my marriage; maybe they just lived in sin.
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Jump in all you want! I never did find my marriage; maybe they just lived in sin.
Awww, I hate when you can't find something...I'm sure I read somewhere that the registers or lists of names were incomplete and some were lost "something along those lines anyway" I have fingers crossed in the hope mine can be found.
Many thanks for your reply :)
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Hi Eileen, I assume you have seen this pic of the toll house.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~agene/lamberton.html
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The problem with the data on the certificate is that there is not a lot of info. My 3xG grandfather was Robert Strother (or Scrouther or Stothard or Studdard etc depending on the sobriety or hearing of the clerk) who married Elizabeth Brown in 1842. Or didn't. The toll booth marriage certificate will give me almost no extra details.
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Seoras.... Thanks so much for posting the link for the photo, I hadn't seen it or come across it despite googling everywhere for images, nothing came up at all so it's great to see this :)
Ormus.... Yes I know there isn't any extra info on the certificates but just the names would be good enough for me, I've been trying to find their marriage for a long time without success until I was sent the Morpeth Herald Golden Wedding info and image from another family researcher, now I know why...I hadn't even heard of Irregular border marriages until then :)
I'll try to post the image from newspaper later today after work.
Thank you once again for your replies :D
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I wonder if someone could look up and confirm a Lamberton Toll Marriage for Thomas Geggie and Jane Patterson on 16 October 1847?
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From "Irregular Marriages recorded in the Berwick Advertiser and other Border Papers" -
Date of newspaper 23 October 1847. On the 16th inst. at Lamberton Toll, Thomas Geggie of Hazelridge to Jane Patterson of Ellick
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Many thanks Jora! This has been an "unsupported" entry in my tree!
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Hello,
I noticed, in earlier posts, that there is someone on this forum who can do look-ups for marriages at Lamberton Toll. I would be very grateful if someone could help me. I am looking for the marriage of Ralph Somerville and Catherine Johnson. I have unsubstantiated information that they married in May of 1839 at Lamberton Toll. Ralph was from Berwick-Upon-Tweed and I cannot locate a marriage in England for the couple so it is certainly conceivable that they married in Scotland. Any assistance gratefully accepted. Regards, Marg from Canada.
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👋 hi, Northumberland &Durham family History Society.
I’ve just read an article saying many records were lost but the above, Scottish library and Northumberland archives have records
Dates are 1834-1843, 1844- 1849
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Thanks for the information on the book, definitely will try and buy this. I have never heard of irregular
marriages. Another Rootschatter told me to check out Kirk Sessions for an irregular marriage record for my 4xggg. I eventually found them in the Stirling Kirk Sessions in 1777. Possible reasons for their irregular marriage is either he was English from Tweedmouth and not of the Scottish faith or because she was about 7 months pregnant. Now I just need to see if I can find any sort of marriage record!