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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: trian on Tuesday 24 October 06 22:56 BST (UK)
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Can anyone advise me if census returns were completed for merchant mariners who may have been at sea on census night? If there were records taken, where they only for ships in British ports or were they taken for those out of British waters?
Any help is appreciated. Many thanks
Trish
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Hi Trish
There is a bit of the census i don't understand in regard to ships "At Sea". All vessels tugs and anything else with a crew in a port on census night English or not went on the census. If a ship/vessel is At Sea as far as i know the crew were not able to be entered on the census.I have seen on the "Vessel's in port "on a census,where it gives the name of the vessel then says "At Sea" so i would imagine like the normal census where the enumerators had a list of houses to visit. The dockyard census enumerates would have a list of ships. Otherwise how would he know one of them was at sea. I think i have just explained to myself what i didn't understand ;D ;D
Can anyone elaborate on that
Celia
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Celia,
Thanks for your message. I will keep searching.
Trish
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Some of the Censuses do have "ships at sea" at the time of the Census. Although I think the early ones werent covered. Certainly I have one in 1861 where the occupants were in "the North Sea" at the time of the Census and a later one I think from memory the 81 where they were on the Dogger Bank. The Census forms had to be handed in to the Port official on return of the ship and applied to vessels on " coastal or short foreign trips" e.g. fishermen. Have a look at the part of the census dealing with the vessels and see what the notes say.
jackie ;)
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For members of the Royal Navy in 1841 only a head count was probably attempted. For the Merchant Navy no attempt appears to have been made to make a complete enumeration of the crew and passengers of merchant ships. Instead the GRO asked the General Register and Record Office of Seamen to provide the number of seamen's names on it's register on 6th June 1841, after deducting those reported dead. Only a global figure for the total number of merchant seamen was given in the 1841 Census Report.
"Making Sense of the Census" published by the National Archives.
Remember the censuses were taken purely for statistical purposes and not for future family historians.
Stan
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The instructions for the 1861 Census meant that only British Ships in the coasting or home trade which arrived in port within a certain period, or British ships in the foreign trade which were in port on census night, should have been issued with ships' schedules. British foreign-going ships in foreign waters before 8 April should not have been given schedules. Some ships which were in the Baltic and Mediterranean on census night and appear in the schedules were apparently foreign-going vessels which were mistakenly given schedules by the custom officers.
Stan
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"In 1851 the process was very complex. The intention was to restrict a nominal enumeration to the crew and passengers of British vessels engaged in the home trade, either in port on census night or arriving within a month. It is not clear if British vessels engaged in foreign trade were so enumerated, although the wording of the schedules would indicate not. The apparent destruction of most of the ships' schedules for this census makes it difficult to settle the question. For all other vessels only a headcount was officially attempted". From 'Making Sense of The Census Revisited' by Edward Higgs, who devotes three pages to the census enumeration of the merchant marine.
Stan
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I've just been looking at a census return, think it was 1861, that listed all the ships and their crew even if they were stationed abroad. Just from the first few I looked at had one in Jamaica and another in Shanghai, China.
I'll see if I can find it again for you :)
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I hope it's ok to post an Ancestry url here :-[
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/list.aspx?dbid=8767&path=Misc+Ships+at+Sea+or+Abroad.Vessels
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[quote author=purplemoon had one in Jamaica and another in Shanghai, China.
Jamaica is the name of the ship. When it says 'District xxxxx'
'xxxx' is the name of the ship.
Stan
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Jamaica is the name of the ship. When it says 'District xxxxx'
'xxxx' is the name of the ship.
Stan
If you look at the front page with the enumeration details it gives the location of the ship on the night the census was taken and is separate from the district details which, as you say, is actually the name of the ship.
I found it quite by accident whilst trying to locate someone in or near Gibraltar, and before I spotted this thread, so can't remember now exactly which pages I was looking at ::)
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If you look at the front page with the enumeration details it gives the location of the ship on the night the census was taken and is separate from the district details which, as you say, is actually the name of the ship.
I am very familiar with the census schedules. On the page with the enumeration details it has "Jamaica" as being 'off point Lynas' at midnight on April 7th. 1861. The schedule was delivered to the master "Lpool River 8/4/61". So they arrived in port on the Monday.
The instructions for the 1861 census should have meant that only British ships in the coasting or home trade which arrived in port within a certain period, or British ships in the foreign trade which were in port on census night should have been issued with ships' schedules. British foreign-going ships in foreign waters before 8th April should not have been given schedules.
However an examination of the schedules reveals British ships which were in the Baltic and Mediterranean on census night, apparently these were foreign going vessels mistakenly given schedules by the customs officers.
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I can't actually remember exactly which pages I was looking at now, like I said I discovered them quite by accident, and by the time I spotted this thread I'd closed the browser so couldn't back track to find it again, although I managed to find the page I quoted above which I thought might be of some use to the OP.
The front pages of the few I read were slightly different to the ones in the schedules on the above page and if I recall had a large crest in the centre with details of the ship/military base and it's whereabouts below. I wasn't actually looking at the ship called Jamaica (didn't even know there was one till you mentioned it :P ) but I do remember a couple of the locations actually being at Jamaica and Shanghai, China but don't recall the names of the ships, or even if they were actually ships!
Does any of this ring any bells with you?
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The front pages of the few I read were slightly different to the ones in the schedules on the above page and if I recall had a large crest in the centre with details of the ship/military base and it's whereabouts below.
Does any of this ring any bells with you?
These are the returns for the Royal Navy, which are different to those of the Merchant Marine and Fishing Vessels.
http://content.ancestry.co.uk/Browse/list.aspx?dbid=8767&path=Royal+Navy.Vessels
Apparently any nominal returns for the Royal Navy in 1841 and 1851, if they were made, have not survived. From 1861 onwards the commanding officers of Royal Naval vessels,both in home waters and abroad, were furnished with special naval schedules in which they recorded the names and details of the officers and crew and any passengers.
Stan
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Ahhh right, yes those are the ones I'd found - thanks for clearing that up for me! You learn something new every day ;)
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To all,
Thank you for your input. All sound very interesting. I have no idea which ship my gr gr grandfather was aboard on any census, just a bit of a shot in the dark really. I do know he was in the merchant service between 1860's and 1880's and a master at the time of his death, before 1891 (again, I do not know the exact year of his death).
Anyway thanks you for all of the information.
Regards
Trish