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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ros on Saturday 14 October 06 13:41 BST (UK)
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I AM TRYING TO TRACE MY ANCESTORS THERY WERE HAWKERS/ PEDALRS AND I AHVE A LITTLE INFORMATION BUT AM TRYING TO TACK DOWN THE EXACT PLACE AND DATE OF BIRTH FOR MY GRANDFATHER
CAN NAYONE TELL ME IF I APPLY FOR HIS DEATH CERTIFICATE WILL IT HAVE HIS BIRTH DATE AND LOCATION ON IT ?
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Hi Ros,
It will depend when he died; I have a death cert dated 1974 and that shows place and date of birth. I'm not sure when the style of death certs changed. My certs are all from England,not sure if it is the same elsewhere.
Nanny Jan
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thank you nanny jan the date of death was england 1952 so im not sure i have alreay applied for a possible birth cert but it doesn't look like its the same person
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Hi Ros,
Have you looked for a marriage cert. for your grandfather; that might give you an idea of which year he was born?
Do you know how old he was when he died; there is a chance he could be found on 1901 census if he was over 53!
1901 transcripts are free to view at the moment on www.ancestry.co.uk.......you might just find him there.
Good luck,
Nanny Jan
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It was 1969 when date and place of birth (as accurate as known by the person registering the death) first started to be listed on English & Welsh death certificates.
Have you got his marriage certificate?
Casalguidi
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HE WAS BORN 1907 ACCORDING TO MY MOTHER IN HEREFORD BUT THERE IS NO RECORD OF HIM , HIS FATHER WAS ERNEST MOTHER NOT SURE IF IT WAS LILY OR ALICE ON A CERTIFICATE IIVE GOT FOR HIS BROTHER HE WAS BORN TAUNTON SOMERSET WITH FATHER ERNET AND MOTHER ALICE MOSS , APPLIED FOR THE MARRIAGE CERT OF A ERNEST AND ALICE / LILY MOSS AND THE ONLY ONE I CAN GET IS FOR A LILYU MOSS AD ERNEST GALE BUT THEN I CANT EVEN FIND ERNEST ON THE 1891 WITH IS FATHER LISTED AS GEOGE MINER ?
AS FOR FINDING A BIRTH CERT FOR EDWARD WALTER THE ONLY ONE I CAN FIND IS FOR AN EDWARD GALE MOTHER ALICE MOSS FATHER ERNEST HE WAS BORN CARDIFF, MY MOTHER HAD ALWAYS SAID ERNEST AND HIS BROTHER WERE BORN HEREFORD? SO THAT MAKES IT CONFUSSING ,
WHATS EVEN MORE CONFUSING IS THAT THE FAMILY WERE REPORTIDLY GYPSY'S, SOMEONE ON HERE FOUND ME ONE FAMILY IN CANTON GLAMORGAN ON THE 1901 WITH AN ERNEST GALE BORN CHELTENHAM GLOUC
ALSO GRADFATHER EDWARD WALTER HAD A SISTER SUSAN ELIZABETH CANT FIND HER EITHER
VERY CONFUSSING IVE JUST SPENT ALL DAY ON ANCESTRY .CO.UK USING UP LOADS OF CREDIT TRYING TO DECIPHER THESE CERTIFICATES IVE OBTAINED TO SEE IF ANY OF THEM ARE MINE
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This all looks very confusing!!
I think it might help to try and summarise the facts so far. And I mean facts, not family hearsay!!
your grandfather's name was...... I havent even quite managed to sort that one out!
He died on.......... do you have the cert? If not have you got as far as finding the index entry?
He married ....... on ........ at ....... As casalguidi says it would be worth finding his marriage. His wife's name and maiden name can be found on your mother's birth cert (I take it he is your mother's dad)
If you are 100% sure you have his brother's birth cert then it would show the parents names, unless the brother is actually a half brother or step brother.
Just take it one step at a time, and if you would like rootschatters to help look ( as they will be willing to do) just make sure they have all the relevant info at each step!
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right sorry i know its all confusing my head has been spinning with this for the last 2 years and getting no where fast
i will tell you facts of what i know
grandfather edward walter gale b 27/2/1906 cardiff on cert (although mother says born hereford)
mothers name alice formally moss; father ernest gale occ mason's labourer
edward walter had 1 brother william john b c 1912 died bath somerset in 2003
according to cert i have :born taunton somerset :his mother alice gale formerly moss : father ernest gale occ general hawker
edward walter my grandfather ) also had 1 sister elizabeth susan b c 1910 dont know where but i know she married james john selway in bath somerset
all 3 children married in bath somerset where the family what left of it is based , they all married in the 1930's
back to grandfather edward walter
i have his marriage cert on which his father stated as ernest is deceased
the only marriage certifacte i cn find for ernest gt grandfather is to a lill moss i cnot find one for an alice moss at all
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So, looking firat at brother William John. If he died as recently as 2003 in Bath then you can be fairly sure that the death entry in the indexes for Dec 2003 is the right guy, and that gives a d o b as 26 April 1912.
The birth indexes for that person show he was born in Taunton, mother's maiden name Moss. And you say you have that cert, giving parents as Ernest Gale and ALice nee Moss. So if you are sure that the guy who died only a few years ago in Bath was the right one, then you can be sure that this is the right birth.
Now, you say you have a birth cert for your grandad Edward Walter, also giving the parents as Ernest Gale and ALice nee Moss. So you can be sure that this is the right cert for your grandad, and he was actually born in Cardiff and not Hereford as family rumour had it.
So that is your original question answered - you have his birth date and location!
To go further back is harder, like you I have found the marriage of an Ernest Gale to a Lily Moss on FreeBMD.
You may be best trying to find Edward Gale on 1901 census next, difficult as you have no approx d o b for him.
Or alternativley trying to find his death - you know it is after 1912 when William born ,but before whatever date son Ernest Walter marries in the 30's.
other folk may have better ideas
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hello lizdb
thank you for your reply
yes youve got it all down right i think i will have to pass up on the amily heaesay regarding hereford , perhaps they did live there for a whil whilst edward walter was a young boy and thats what was remembered, i dont know but mother wont budge on this at all
what i dont understand is the only ernest gale marriage i can find is to a lily moss not an alice moss no matter how hard i look ,and the occupationms on the marriage cert i have for ernest gale and lily moss are ernest miner ; his father miner and lily's father also a miner
but trying to track dow ernest agin in the 1891 and 1901 census is proving impossible
could they have started off as miners then ended up as hakers/pedlars?they certainly seemd tohave travelled a bit judging by the wedding cert then then the birth certs i have for edward and william
and why does edwards birth cert only state edward and not edward walter as we definatley know he was?
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it is unlikely they changed from being miners to being trvelling hawkers, but you never know. It is more likely that marriage is the wrong one.
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THATS WHAT I CANT UNDERSTAND BUT THEN WHY CAN ONLY FIND A MARRIAGE FOR A LILY MOSS BUT NOTHING FOR AN ALICE MOSS
I HAVE SAT AT THIS COMP ALL DAY AND LOOKED AT EVERY SITE AVAILABLE AND THEY ALL THROW UP THE LILLY MOSS ??
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1901 census throws up 3 Ernest GALEs in Wales, including this one. He is lodging, with his parents Walter and Alice - who are Pedlars/Hawkers. They are lodging in a household of Pedlars.
RG13-4985-204-33
12 Gray St, Canton, Glamorgan
Ernest GALE Lodger S 14 b. Cheltenham
The other two Ernest GALES:
1. Canton, Glamorgan: Archie Ernest GALE - b Swansea 1886, Paper mill cutter - lodging (no parents shown)
2. Ebbw Vale, Monmouthshire: Ernest G GALE - b Ebbw Vale 1894, father John a coal miner b Hereford
Don't want to send you barking up the wrong tree, but thought this info might be useful to you :)
Prue
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Earlier on you mentioned him dying in 1952.
The GRO indexes have an Edward W Gale who died in Bath in March 1/4 of 1952.
The ref is volume 7c page 41 he was 45- making him born in 1907.
Do you have this death cert and is this man definitely your grandad?
His parents may not have registered him as Edward Walter Gale,but he decided to call himself such as he went through life.
I think I will have to re-read this thread in the cold light of day.
I've got a bit confused with all the Edwards and George's-who I believe you are saying worked as a miner- is that correct?
Doesn't that point more to him coming from Wales then?
All the best
Carol
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I've just found this birth- also in Cardiff.
In Mar 1908 Elizabeth Susannah GALE volume 11a page 461
Who are the witnesses on the marriage cert of Ernest and Lily?
They are often other family members and can give a big clue to who else to look for on censuses.
Carol
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TAHNKS ALL FOR YOUR TIME AND TROUBLE
THE "GEORGE " MENTIONED WAS ON A MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE THAT I APPLIED FOR RE ERNEST GALE AND LILY MOSS , GEORGE WAS DOWN AS ERNEST'S FATHER A MINER
LIKE YOU SAY IT DOES SEEM UNLIKELY THAT THE FAMILY WENT FROM MINERS TO HAWKERS/
BUT IT IS THE ONLY MARRIAGE THAT I CAN FIND WITH A MOSS AS THE BRIDE AND ON THE BIRTH CERTS OF MY GRANDFATHER EDWARD WALTER AND HIS BROTHER WILLIAM JOHN THE MAIDEN NAME OF THEIR MOTHER IS ALICE MOSS.
NO MATTER WHAT U SEARCH ALL REFERNCES AND SITES COME BACK WITH THE 1 MARRIAGE OF AN ERNEST GALE TO A "LILY " MOSS NOT AN ALICE
I DO HAVE THE 1901 CENSUS REPORT OF A WALTER GALE AND ALICE GALE WITH AN ERNEST LODGING WITH OTHER PEDLARS AND HAWKERS IN CANTON AND WHEN I HAVE MENTIONED THIS TO MY COUSIN HE CAN REMMEBER HIS FATHER TALKING ABOUT CANTON BUT CANOT REMMEBER WHY OR WHO IT WAS CONCERNED WITH !
MOTHER STILL INSISTS THAT THERE IS A HEREFORD CONECTION WITH GRANDFATHER AND HIS BROTHER
BUT TRY AS I MIGHT I CANOT TRACK WALTER , ALICE AND ERNEST BACK BEFORE THE 1901 CENSUS EVEN WITH THE INFORMATION OF THEIR BIRTH PLACES
I HAVE ALSO TRIED ALL THE TRAVELLER LINKS ON VARIOUS WEBSITES UNDER BOTH SURNAMES OF "GALE " AND "HEATH"( WHICH WAS SUPPOSIDLY THE FAMILY SURNAME BEFORE IT WAS CHANGED APPARNTLEY DUE TO GT GT GRANDFATHER ? MAYBE WALTER ? GAMBLING AWAY THE FAMILY MONEY AND HAVING TO CHANGE THE FAMILY NAME !)
FAMILY STORES HAVE SAID THAT WHEN THE FAMILY WERE GYPSY'S / HAWKERS THEY MADE A GOOD LIVING SELLING DRIED FLOWERS UP AND DOWN THE COUNTRY AS FAR AS LONDON
REGARDING THE "WALTER NAMED IN THE 1901 WITH ALICE AND ERNEST
I KEEP COMMING BACK TO IT AS MY GRANDFATHERS MIDDLE NAME WAS WALTER ALL THE NAMES FROM MY GRANDFATHERS LINE WERE CARRIED ON DOWN TO THE PRESENT GENERATION SO I KEEP COMMING BACK TO THAT ONE IN PARTICULAR
WILLIAM JOHN AND EDWARD WALTER ALSO HAD A SISTER CALLED ELIZABETH SUSAN COULD SHE HAVE BEEN NAMED AFTER THE LILY (ALICE) MOSS ?
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WITNESSES ON ERNEST AND LILY'S MARRIAGE CERT ARE WILLIAM GARWOOD AND ELIZABETH DODSON CANT FIND ANY RELAVANCE TO THE FAMILY AT ALL
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Have you only used Free BMD to look for this marriage- cos you DO realise that the index is no where near complete on that website.
There may well be other marriages that have not been transcribed yet.
Carol
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have used free bmd and ancestry.co.ukmum has now said that edward walters mother was called elizabeth !!!! thats who edwards sister ws named after
if thats the case then why does it state on bothe edwards and william john birth certificate alice moss
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The marriage took place in Bath in March 1930 of James J Selway and Elizabeth S Gale volume 5c page 933
Looks like the 1908 birth I found yesterday is probably correct.
I bet if you got both certs you would find the previous info confirmed yet again.
All you can do is go on the facts - not on family hearsay.
Just cos someone was 'called' a certain name does not mean that is their correct one ie the one they were registered with at birth.You do however HAVE to use your correct birth name on all official documents.
I have a gt aunt Dolly- we all thought she would turn out to be Dorothy.
I have since found she was christened as Mary Elizabeth- none of her neices knew that.
Carol
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So, Ros, be POSITIVE on this one - you now have the details of the daughter too! It is up to you if you want to get her birth cert too or not.
I can only echo Carol's advise about sticking to facts.
And also about names - my grandfather was always, we thought, William Herbert. He married, twice, in as that name. His death in his 80's was registered in that name. Then his widow looked out his birth cert, and found he was registered simply as 'Willie'. Neither my mother, or anyone knew this throughout his life. But it eventually came to light via his brother who had emigrated to America that when they were teenagers both he (Frank) and my grandad (Willie) decided they wanted middle names, so from then onwards called themselves Frank Victor and William Herbert. And that is what they did. No-one (not even their wives) knew of their previous names until then, about 70 years later.
On the marriage, again I agree with Carol. There are lots of marriages even on the free database ist on ancestry for Ernest Gales, and I didnt look at the spouse name for all. The CArdiff one was to a Lily Moss, but your chap could have married anywhere. The free database is also not complete, and it is not practical to look through the marriage indexes qtr by qtr when we have little idea as to the time scale or place of the marriage.
Having said that, we have now established the date of the daughter's birth, so unless there were more siblings that might help with a marriage date.
Hang in there, Ros, you're doing well! Dont get bogged down with red herrings - just go one step at a time!
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thank you so much for your words of encouragement
no one left in the family seems to have a clue about anything , and im so desparate to put an end to all these rumours and get the fact straight so at least i can tell my children the correct version of events !
can i just ask one thing you mentioned in your posting that you found a marraige to a lily moss in CARDIFF?? ive only foud one in chesterfied derbyshire , was that a mis type or have i missed one , if there is one in cardiff then that would solve a few problems as it would be the correct area im in according to other info from the 1901
plese let me know and if you have a reference for it that would be smashing
thank you for your patience with a degranged budding family historian close to breakdown ???
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Sorry, Ros, my mistake.
The Lily Moss/Ernest Gale marriage is Chesterfield.
This is unlikely to be the correct one.
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DAMM I THOUGHT IT WAS THAT ONE , HOPING YOU HAD TURNED UP TRUMPS ,AGAIN HAVE BEEN SEARCHING WEB FOR AN ALICE MOSS ERNEST GALE MARRIAGE NO LUCK
ARE THERE ANY SITES YOU CAN RECOMEND TO TRY ?
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No, Ros, I think you have tried all the websites where some marriages have been transcribed on to a database.
Your only course of action for finding this marriage is to methodically work through the marriage indexes, quarter by quarter, for a wide range of years in which Ernest and Alice could have married. As you go, jot down every Ernest Gale who marries. Then look in the same quarter for Alice Moss and see if there is an entry with the same area and same ref. The indexes are currently free to search on Ancestry, so it wont cost you anything, but it will take a bit of time and organisation.
But it will guarantee that you find the marriage if there was one.
Alternatively, you can put the marriage on the back burner, so to speak, and see what else you can find out about the families, in th ehope that some more information will come to light to help. For example, you could get the birth cert for Elizabeth Susan. This would confirm that her parents are the same, Ernest and Alice, or not (who knows? ) and whether Alice gives her name as ALice Gale nee Moss (inplying but not guaranteeing they are married) or as Alice Moss (implying they are not). Also it will give an address for the family at that particular date.
Or you can investigate the 1901 census a bit more. You have Ernest there, living with other travellers. How about you browse around the adjacent pages (dont know if you can do this online with 1901) and see what other travellers were on that site/field? Who knows you may find a Moss family! Or more of the Gale clan.
There is a whole board on Rootschat devoted to Travellers, so have a look there for any tips.
But most of all.....calm down!
Family trees are never built in a day. Many 'brickwalls' are there for years and years. It takes time (lots) and usually money too! If all else fails remember in 2012 you will have access to the 1911 census which will help.
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Just discovered a lot of people are wasting their time here, as there is a duplicate thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,183989.15.html
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Can we ask a moderator to merge these two topics please.
We don't want to be looking for stuff that others have already found.
Thanks ::)
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Hi,
Can you let us know the details on the marriage cert between Ernest Gale and Lily Moss, i.e. ages, where they were living, Lilys fathers name, etc. It might help to either prove/disprove they are the right people. Also the addresses on the birth certs that you have. I thought if we could look at these addresses on the 1901 census and compare.
Kath