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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Andy001 on Monday 02 October 06 12:35 BST (UK)
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Does this look familiar to anyone?Or does anyone have any idea of what year,what type of people wore these clothes?
ANY suggestions appreciated!!
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Hi Andy :)
Looks like the ladies are wearing mid-1890s fashions - can't help you with the location though, I'm afraid.
Cheers
Prue
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Cheers,Prue :)
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The eaves and chimneys of the building seem very distinctive but I imagine the place to start is by identifying the walls, it is obviously a moorland setting and these walls vary from one area to another, an expert would be able to give a location within several miles. Now I seem to think that there is a site that deals specifically with wall styles and techniques but at the mo I can't remember it - I shall try to find though.
Denn
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Ta for that,Denn.I did notice the walls,they must be the walls from their property as they are cut and not stacked like dry stone walls.I didn't realise there were wall experts!!! ;D
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Not sure about the one immediately behind the group, but the ones further back are drystone. I googled drystone walls and there are many sites, it may be worthwhile contacting the drystone wall association - here is their site.
http://www.dswa.org.uk/main_index_frames.htm
Denn
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I think the walls are of dressed (shaped) stone, simply because it's near the 'big house' .
Around here (West Yorks), walls by the main road & houses are dressed stone and field walls natural stones.
Apparently the work was done by 'gangs' who would travel around offering their services to local landowners/farmers.
It's not specifically Geographic.
Pauline
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I.
It's not specifically Geographic.
Pauline
Yes I would agree with that but only partially, although gangs could
work on a particular style in different areas surely it would be more
usual for them to be working within their own area. or for a specific
style of wall to be usually found in a particular area.
The main thing being that the style of wall would point to a probability
(rather than a certainty) of being an area - with the idea of narrowing
the search area for the pic'.
Denn (not trying to be pedantic)
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I think the walls are of dressed (shaped) stone, simply because it's near the
'big house' .
Pauline
Pauline I think that statement says a lot too, It is a big (grand) house and as
such should narrow down the search. I would imagine that not too many
people could afford dressed stone - even at the front of the house.
Denn
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Ok I don't know the location but here are some thoughts to ponder.
The people are all well shod a sure sign that they are related not staff.
The gentleman on the right is head of the family, see how the topper makes him taller than the rest. His 'crombie' style coat and brolly indicate industry perhaps a mill owner rather than a land owner.
Behind every successful man stands a good woman and there is his wife behind him. She has distinctive eyes as does their son next to her.
His wife and daughter are next then another son and his wife or perhaps daughter and her husband.
The geographical setting is we are led to believe, W. Yorks. I think we are on a flood plain of either the Aire or the Wharfe, wide fertile farmland and the high hill in the background. There are few trees indicating lots of farming for a long time. The river would be behind the photographer. The walls are sandstone or millstone grit not limestone. so putting all this together I would guess at an area North of Bradford and South of Skipton or Ilkley.
The wall in the foreground is of the type found around mills and is not round the big house, that wall and its gate can be seen just by the elbow of the man on the left. The coping stones are distinctive. Perhaps there is a mill to the left of the picture. I don't think the family are standing on a major road. There is a lot of stonework in the picture, suggestive of a location not far from a town or city where a large workforce could be found.
The white roof of the building on the right, behind the gentleman with the top hat, is also distinctive. I don't ever recall seeing one quite like it.
Well that's about it, oh what areas are you researching Andy ?
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You're really observant Dave!!
The photo was in my Gt Aunts colection that I was lent to scan recently.I immediately thought it looked like Yorkshire,and we do have family from West Yorkshire,but I don't think they were as grand as this!! Early 1800's 1/2 were from Wadsworth/Hebden Bridge area,Half were from Thornton/Halifax and 'met up' round Halifax/Northowram.My My Gt x3 Grandparents were both weavers living near Halifax,they moved to Denholme 1860's.My Gtx2 Grandad's cousin+Uncle became watchmakers then moved to Leeds early 1870's.My Gt x2 Grandad became one and moved to Leeds,then to Manchester late 1870's (on his way to America,but never left).The rest of the family stayed in Denholme for years,til at least the 1960's.Does any of that help?
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Any Brewers in the family ? The gentleman on the right might be holding a bottle in his left hand.
Could that be a dovecote between the 2 ladies ?
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There's no brewers that I know of!
PrueM suggested it was 1890's from the fashion,but I can't imagine how they are even known to my family ,it seems even less likely they are related!!
Thanks for everyones input :)
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Hi andy,
What a lovely grouping. At a guess I would say that the date is somewhere between 1890 and 1900 (possibly a tad either side on each date) and although the location could be anywhere I would have a stab and say that it is possibly in the north of England possibly somewhere in Yorkshire. I only say this because of the style of the large Farm (?) house in the background and the style and size of the stone wall behind the group. Also the dry stone walling in the far background is very reminiscent of the dales.
old rowley
Moderator Comment: answer merged from same question in "Common Room"
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Cheers for that,Old Rowley :)
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"Early 1800's 1/2 were from Wadsworth/Hebden Bridge"
I live near Wadsworth and it's not there. I know that doesn't help much, but I suppose at least you know where not to look.
To me the landscape looks very similar to the area north and west of Leeds, but that's just a guess.
Kate
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Thanks Kate,it does help really cos that photo could have been passed on from anyone really!!
I'll try googling pics of Leeds,now!
Any suggestions how the house would be described ie Hall,House etc?
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Good luck! It is frustrating when you find these mystery photos. We have one in our family, the subject is a young woman but no one has a clue who she is.
"Any suggestions how the house would be described ie Hall,House etc?"
It could be anything, although there seem to be rather more Halls, than Houses and I haven't come across many Manors. My mother in law has quite a few books about big houses in Yorkshire, and also about local natural history and geography. She is on holiday at the moment, but if you have no luck I'll pop up when she gets back and see if I can find anything similar.
Kate
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Thanks Kate,its really bugging me who they are! The photo looks like where my ancestors were from,but I bet they didn't know people like that!!
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Not much use on the where -
but I would put the style of clothes as early 20thC c.1904/6 by the young girl's boots, elaborate dress and the large hats. She is attired very similarly to a great-aunt aged 8 or 9 in one of our 1906 photos.
Definitely the older man is an owner or professional person in his frock coat and top hat. They all have their Albert watch chains too.
Watermusic
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Thanks,Watermusic-what are Albert Watch chains?
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Andy, the area immediately round Leeds doesn't have the right features, you need to go a few miles North of Leeds before you get a sizeable hill in the background, say Yeadon or Otley with the Chevin or over to Ilkley with the moor or Middleton on the other side of the Wharfe, Baildon on the other side of the watershed from Ilkley moor. Any one of a couple of dozen places are likely candidates.
The best Leeds photo web site is called something like Leodis (that is probably spelt wrong). From Weaver to Web has lots of photos from the Halifax area
There may be two other people in the picture to the right and over the wall or it might just be my old eyes getting tired. No particular significance though, they look as if they are just having a nosy or perhaps they were your ancestors ?.
The 'bottle' ? could be similar to a small 'demijohn' type with loops near the top. There may be a web site that describes antique bottles.
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The clock/bell tower is a bit like the one at Chatsworth House (not quite so big)
Does anyone know the proper name for it though as it is probably the easiest feature to google?
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An Albert, named after Prince Albert, is a security chain usually of gold, or could be silver, that has a bar on one end to fix through a button hole and a clip on the other that hooks through the loop on the pocket watch of the same metal as the chain.
The bar was put through a hole on the wearer's right and the chain loops across, under the top coat, to the watch pocket.
The two gentlemen in flat caps have them; the older gentleman appears to have a tassle? bunch of keys? hanging on a chain to just under the head of his stick.
Watermusic
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I think it's 'just' a very substantial farmhouse or mill owner's house. There's not enough fancy decoration on the house itself (or a large enough gardens) to suggest anything else in my view.
As someone else said, the background hills are too shallow to be Hebden/ Old Town/ Wadworth. Could well be near Thornton , or many other places.
Pauline
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Well,I've been googling manor houses/halls/country houses in yorkshire and it seems to have a style different to all the ones that come up.
I'm trawling through Leodis-I'd forgot about that site,Dave-and I can't find anything similar.
The landscape seems to suggest somewhere more North,but the style of building is similar to what I've seen round Huddersfield,Halifax and Brighouse.
I've noticed it's got a drainpipe-does that narrow the year down?
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Is there anything to suggest that it is just a single 'big house'? Could it not be a terrace of 2, 3 or 4 small houses?
When I was in Brighouse the other week, I saw a house that had identical eaves to the one in your photo. This one was 2 separate dwellings.
Also, do we know that the house and the people are associated? Could they not just have happened to stop to have their picture taken at that particular spot whilst they were out on a country walk?
Dolly
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Thanks Kate,its really bugging me who they are! The photo looks like where my ancestors were from,but I bet they didn't know people like that!!
Just a thought, but could your relative be the person taking the picture? Maybe a photographer, or photographers assistant?
Kate
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Have you tried contacting the local family history society or perhaps a local newspaper if you think it is somewhere in the West Riding area?
Nanny Jan
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More thoughts to ponder.
The 'eaves' are not eaves, they are stone supports for the guttering. There are lots of them around Bradford, Leeds and surrounding areas. I noticed half a dozen houses with them this evening on a short run to my son's house at Wilsden.
Have I missed a post ? where did the Clock / Bell tower come from ?
The clock/bell tower is a bit like the one at Chatsworth House
Denns suggestion that dry stone walling can be identified down to a few miles. I do know that different areas have different styles but the areas are pretty wide spread, more county to county. It is even possible to tell where one person left off and another took over but again that isn't much help in this case. The coping stones on the wall in the foreground overhang the wall I believe that they may be of more use in identifying the location.
Could be a row of terraced houses there several fall pipes showing and the only gate that we can see is very much off-set from the center. There are buildings to the rear of and in front of the 'house' I don't know what to make of those. The grass could give an indication of the type of soil and from that possible locations. I've no idea from who or where you could find that information.
Dave
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I think the answers given are brilliant (and correct)
Now dave - how come you missed the housemaid looking over the wall - back right?! ;D
Keith
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There may be two other people in the picture to the right and over the wall or it might just be my old eyes getting tired ...... today at 13:21:43
didn't know there was an housemaid though :D
Dave
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Some of my further thoughts,
Not a flood plain as suggested by Dave - the ground rises too soon
Not a group who have just stopped for a photo shoot - why do it here in front of some strangers home/homes when there are better locations. I think the location was specifically chosen.
Am I blind? I cant see a demijohn
The tassles on the gent's umbrella have me intrigued, I believe that they may have some significance
If it wasn't for the child in the pic' I would have said that it was a Civic event and that the tassles denoted some civic standing.
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I think that the bottle/demijohn is nothing more than a pipe,
held by the old man with the "brolly"
Tomkin
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Denn I think you could be right about the floodplain then again the glacial ice flows from the last ice age ended about the Leeds level so much of the landscape to the North was formed by that occurrence.
Demijohn - I did say a small one, no idea what it would be called but I think I can make out a bottle with a glass 'ring' at the top.
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I think this is either somewhere someone definitely recognises or doesn't!!
I did wonder if it was more than one house,after looking at every farm/manor house and hall in West Yorkshire,I realised it has a lot more windows than 'usual',even quite large farmhouses only had 2 or maybe 3 windows at the top.
Perhaps it's not even as rural as it looks,there may be a whole village out of shot!!
Good idea about the photographer,Kate,but none of mine were as far as I know.
And I thought they looked a bit civicy/official too!! And the bloke on the right has definitely brought a bottle of something along!!
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Demijohn - I did say a small one, no idea what it would be called but I think I can make out a bottle with a glass 'ring' at the top.
Got it, yes now I agree - what I would call a hip flask, a demijohn is quite large - a gallon or more.
Denn
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Andy,
Is it a proper photo and have you access to the original?
Tomkin
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Yes its a proper photo and I have access to it.
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Hi Andy,
Can you put a box around the old blokes hand and scan again at high resolution, so that we can see if it's a bottle or not. Adjust your settings to brighten
the area so that you can see as much detail as possible. I can't see a person
like that being photographed, in public with his family, holding a bottle. It just wasn't done in that day and age. If fact I've never seen this in an old photo so
if it is a bottle you might have a first.
Can you also put a box around the top right hand corner and take an
high resolution scan. There would appear to be some writing or scribble there but it
probably is a lot of marks that just give the appearance of writing.
Tomkin
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That IS a high res scan!! The photo is tiny!
I've had a look through a magnifying glass,and I think You're right,it doesn't look like a bottle now,it looks like a lid or bottle top shape,and the dark patch seems like a shadow.
In the background,it is definitely a man leaning on the wall!!
He has got a white shirt,a tank-top/waistcoat and a flat cap,he is leaning on the wall with his left elbow and he has his chin in his hand.
I'm not on the computer with the scanner at the mo.
*** Just looked again and its starting to look creepy-the pipe mans smoke goes above the young girl,but it looks like a face just behind her head on the right! And the lady the smoke is blowing at seems half-disolved!
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The "big house" looks like a terrace of four houses to me, possibly eight if they are back-to-backs, mill or farm cottages? The location looks very similar to areas of Huddersfield (Lindley Moor area) or Halifax.
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Looks to me that the tassels are on the handle of the umbrella
Dolly
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It looks like a bridal party to me. Bride & groom on the left, the two sets of parents & perhaps a young sister or niece?
jane
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Yes! The two younger gents have flowers in their buttonholes.
One always wears one's best to a wedding.
Watermusic
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I don't think it's a wedding picture.
I do think that it is 3 generations....maybe 4 of one family....Grandmama and Grandpapa......Mater and Pater.....and Alice and Bertie.....or is it Hermoine and Cyril? I can't remember!! The little girl maybe a grandaughter.
I do think it is a "big house" and I do think that the famly are farmers of some description...look at the shoes....you can almost see the horse muck.
I think it is wonderful.
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My grandfather wore flowers on every occasion. I remember him having a small device for holding water that fitted behind his button hole so that the flower - a rose or carnation - would stay fresh longer, he was just a keen gardener. But yes they do look to be dressed in their Sunday best although not as the bridal party. The younger men are wearing 'field' clothes, but I don't think it is farming. More like the stuff worn for a day out cycling but without the bicycle clips, and before someone picks up on that I am NOT suggesting that that is what they were doing.
It was common for parties to 'dress up' i.e. beyond their station, just to have photos taken. The artist Stubbs was posing the people in his paintings like that a hundred years earlier.
Tassles - I have seen similar on the hilts of swords but I don't know the significance.
I wasn't sure about the flower on the man on the left he looks to have shiny buttons and I thought the 'flower' may have been a badge ???
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Hi Andy,
The photo looks like where my ancestors were from,but I bet they didn't know people like that!!
I wouldn't be too surprised if members of your family were on this photo!
It was most certainly taken for an occasion of some kind and I have a feeling they were wearing their "Sunday best" clothes.
I wonder if the older couple are related at all to the younger members - it is only just a feeling but the dress code to me looks quite working class.
I have photographs of my farming great-grandparents taken at the turn of the last century. One, taken quite naturally on a working day, the other in their finest, believe you me they both scrubbed up very well. I would have been hard pressed to put them into a social class if I didn't know better.
Pels :)
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Hi
The area could also be the north wiltshire/north somerset/south gloucestershire area (i.e the area surrounding bath) by the dry stone walls. The area is littered with dry stone walls like the one in your picture, also the area is particularly hilly as is suggested by your picture.
However it looks unlikely that you could pin the area down with the few clues available.
Good Luck!
acceber
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I think we should stick with what we have got and not get too far afield if we don't need to. All the background history points to West Yorkshire.
We can narrow down the search by using the direction of the sun and the time of year. various clues like clothing give the time of year as summer. If anyone can identify the flowers in the forground grass then we might get even closer.
The length of the shadows and the photo subject suggests afternoon therefore the shadows are pointing roughly North / North East. Now take a contoured map and mark on the possible places within the previously defined area i.e. North of Leeds South of Skipton.
Have a look at the man on the left. He is not wearing a flower, that would be in his lapel. He has either an handkerchief in his breast pocket or a badge on there. If it is a badge then he is wearing some type of civilian uniform. I shouldn't think there are too many who wear that type of uniform jacket.
He is holding a cane that would be pretty useless for walking support, it is more like the ones used by school teachers, but of course teachers don't wear uniforms. or did they ?
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If anyone can identify the flowers in the forground grass then we might get even closer.
Have a look at the man on the left. He is not wearing a flower, that would be in his lapel. He has either an handkerchief in his breast pocket or a badge on there. If it is a badge then he is wearing some type of civilian uniform. I shouldn't think there are too many who wear that type of uniform jacket.
He is holding a cane that would be pretty useless for walking support, it is more like the ones used by school teachers, but of course teachers don't wear uniforms. or did they ?
I agree it seems to be Yorkshire, not Wiltshire - although you do see similar landscapes there. However, the stone in the walls is too dark to be Wiltshire stone, even in black and white you can see a difference in shade.
The flowers look like something small, maybe celandines or daisies.
I don't think a teacher would have worn a uniform, or dressed like the man in the photo. There were two teachers in my family around that time and I have never seen photos of either dressed like that. In fact, there is a pic of one with his class, taken around 1901, and in it he is wearing a very formal suit.
To me the man in photo is dressed more along the lines of a master of hounds - some still wear a modern variation of that outfit.
Kate
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Gosh, I can't keep up with all this information and the theories!!! :o ;)
I have had a much longer look at your photo, Andy, and I am revising my date estimate to 1900-1905. I am basing this mostly on the lady on the left, her clothes look the most up to date and she does seem very fashionable :)
I don't think they are particularly upper-crust people...they could be working folk, dressed in their sunday best, or lower-middle-class.
Agree your man at left is holding what looks like a hunting whip, but there is no thong attached to the pointy end, so I don't think that's what it is. It is probably a cane but it's a very fine one.
I don't think the tassles on the older gent's brolly are of any particular significance. Maybe it's just his Sunday-best brolly!
Still can't help you with a location, but Yorkshire seems to be the odds-on favourite by the looks of things ;D
Prue
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This thread is rapidly beginning to qualify for the "How many genealogists does it take to ..." thread, or even "Mountain out of a molehill"
Dolly
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I know, but it is good isn't it?
I'm now at the stage where I am nodding at the computer and agreeing with everyone! ;D ;D
Pels :)
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I wonder if it's a family group photo taken after a church event, possibly Easter Sunday? They may even be standing in church grounds, although if that were the case I'd have expected to see the church as a backdrop rather than the house(s).
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It is turning into an epic isn't it??? ;D
I think we'd have more luck if we could identify the owner of the big fingerprint on the right!!
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Hi to all
I can't offer any actual advice on the photo as to its where abouts or the year, but you may like to have a look at this website
http://www.commanet.org/
This website is self explanatary on how to navigate the pages.
You may find a building or family grouping of similar to the one you have posted.
Wendy
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thanks wendy :)
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Can't identify the location but can say with a degree of authority that the code of dress is definitely Edwardian. The young lady in particular is wearing a design that would date to around 1902. I think the chap in the top hat is simply holding his unlit pipe in the palm of his hand. the building in the background has a porchway showing on the left which indicates it is indeed more than one building as does the appearance of three chimneys. I don't know for sure but isn't that an ousthouse in the background on the right..?
Can't see any sign of anybody looking over walls even when blown up
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Hi Joanne,thanks for that.For some reason its a lot clearer looking at the original through a magnifying glass! I've scanned it at 2400 but it seems to separarte,but its deffo a pipe in the fellas hand and a bloke on the wall.I can't tell what the out building at the back is though. :)
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Just a thought for what it's worth.
Is the group comprised of :- Mother, Father their daughter and two sets of parents? The older lady standing next to the younger has similar features particularly around the mouth.
Bob & Joyce (it's a joint thought!)
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Hi
Just to add my two penneth, there is a house like that at Brearley, Nr Luddendenfoot, Halifax.
Regards
Jan
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I would be happy to use my artistic ability ;D and draw the building without the inclusion of the people in front.
Would this help?
little meg
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Ok, done the sketch, now just have to learn to put it in here.
haven't done that before ;)
You will notice (hopefully) that I have removed people and trees to show the building. It is most likely out of proportion and perspective but the general idea is there.
I have put in windows where I felt they might be but some of the lower ones could quite easily be doorways.
The porch/portico thingy was a bit hard to guess at, this is what I came up with.
The building in the distance was put in the too hard basket and I have used a dotted line to show where I thought it might go, note the ? used in that spot.
fingers crossed that I can put the image up, if not 'help' required. Hope I got the size right, it looks too small
Margaret
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Guess I can afford to enlarge a bit.
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Sorry,I've not been on for a while,
Thanks for the picture Meg,that is brilliant!!
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That is an accomplised "sketch",and it look exactly like the photo.....
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Hope it helps identifying the location.
I had fun, love the challenge. ;D
Margaret
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From the men's clothing it looks like 1910 - 1915, ladies look a bit earlier date Edwardian style.
Location could be the Peak District or a bit further north.
Andy_T
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Andy, you've done it again!!
This is a 13 year old thread!
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Andy, you've done it again!!
This is a 13 year old thread!
I think he's covered about 4-5 old threads in the last hour or so - I wish it was 13 years ago - I'd be young 8)