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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: emarbe on Wednesday 04 October 06 16:32 BST (UK)
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William Walter Bryden (age 25) was married in England in 1865 and I have checked the 1861 census for England but he is not there. Prior to 1900 his age on the various census's indicated that he was born about 1840 in Dumfriesshire, but on the 1901 it states he is 63.
His marriage certificate gives his father's name as John Bryden, occupation, Ironmonger.
I have all of the information on him after he was married, but nothing for Scotland.
If anyone can help I would be very grateful.
Mike
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Hi Mike,
This is quite a puzzler you have here. The only likely candidate in 1841 is a William Bryden born about 1841 who is living in Lochmaben with who appears to be his father John and his Grandfather Robert. No sign of a mother though. This is the same family in the 1851 census. Not sure what has happened to John though? I will keep digging but let me know what your thoughts are on this family.
1851
Lochmaben Parish,
Book 1, Page 19
Braegate Street, Lochmaben
Robert Bryden; Head; Married; 75; Bailie; Retired Farmer; Dumfries, Lochmaben
Elizabeth Bryden; Wife; Married; 60; Dumfries, Kirkmahoe
James Bryden; Son; Unmarried; 30; Carpenter; Master; Dumfries, Lochmaben
William Bryden; Grand Son; 11; Scholar; Dumfries, Tinwald
Elizabeth Bryden; Grand Daur; 10; Scholar; Dumfries, Lochmaben
Emma
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Hi Emma
Well, I didn't expect to get a response this quick, thank you very much, you're a gem.
I have had another look at the various English census returns I've got and it's confusing.
In 1871 he is 31 born Scotland.
In 1881 he is 41 born Dumfries, Scotland.
In 1891 he is 52 born Scotland.
In 1901 he is 63 born Scotland.
On William's marriage certifificate in 1865 it doesn't say that John is deceased, although he could have been.
The 1851 entry you found sounds promising, but on the 1841 does it say whether John is married or a widower and what is his occupation and age?.
The annoying thing with some census returns is that it doesn't show a middle name, if they had one, as this can single people out, still that would make things too easy!!.
Again thanks for your help.
Mike
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Pure specultation here!
The Elizabeth age 10, g/daughter, showing on the 1851 census I think might be a sister to William.
There's an entry on IGI for this christening:
ELIZABETH BRYDEN Christening: 16 NOV 1840 Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland Parents: Father: JOHN BRYDEN Mother:ELIZA GRIERSON
There's no marriage showing for John and Elizabeth until 1846. It may be that the first two children were illegitimate?
JOHN BRYDEN Marriages: Spouse: ELIZABETH GRIESON
Marriage: 16 JAN 1846 Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland
On the 1851 Census, like you Emma, couldn't see an entry for John, however this entry made me wonder whether John may have died prior to the 1851 Census:
BRYDEN Elizabeth, head of household, widow, 31, born Lochmaben Dms
BRYDEN Jannet, daughter of Elizabeth Bryden, 2, born Lochmaben Dms
BRYDEN William, son of Elizabeth Bryden, 4, born Lochmaben Dms
GRIERSON Francis, brother of Elizabeth Bryden, CARPENTER, 22, born Lochmaben Dms
GRIERSON Jane, sister of Elizabeth Bryden, 11, born Lochmaben Dms
SHANKLAND Jannet, niece of Elizabeth Bryden, 4, born Tundergarth Dms
Address: Templand(840), Lochmaben
Janet the daughter above shows on IGI:
JANET EWART BRYDEN Christening: 09 JAN 1849 Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland.
Parents:Father: JOHN BRYDEN Mother: ELIZABETH GRIERSON
Regards.
Monica
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Hello Monica
Thank you for replying, I'm even more confused now.
On the 1851 census that Emma found, William is 10, born in Tinwald, whereas on yours he is only 4, born in Lochmaben, but everything points to him being born around 1840.
I looked on the IGI for his christening but couldn't find anything and the annoying thing is that his middle name is the key to this as there seem to be several Williams around the same age in Dumfriesshire, but nobody with a middle initial.
The other problem I have found is that there seem to be quite a few John Brydens, although none connected with a William, until now.
This is obviously not going to be very straightforward, but thanks for your help.
Regards .................... Mike
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I've just been doing a few more searches. I realised that we have two Williams and that worries me for this family group.
Leaving aside (for a mo!) whether this is your William. Certainly John and Eliza Grierson don't appear to have been married when their daughter Elizabeth, showing in the household with Grandparents Robert and Elizabeth, was born. The other grandchild William showing as born in Tinwald, we can only assume may have been John's child at this stage. There's nothing on IGI but this as you know is not a 100% on its records. Unfortunately, the 1841 Census does not give relationships within a household.
It would appear that William and Elizabeth lived with their grandparents in 1841 and 1851. Elizabeth is still with them in 1861 but not William.
Now, just following through with this family. John and Eliza married in 1846 and had two more children and here comes the second William (Eliza's father was called William). John Bryden then died between 1849-51 when Eliza shows as a widow.
She didn't remarry and died in 1893 in Lochmaben. Husband John Bryden shows as having been a Railway Porter. Daughter Elizabeth married in 1866. Her father John, Railway Porter, shows as deceased.
Everything looks good..........apart from the second William!
Monica
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From the 1881 Census, if I'm looking at the correct entry, did William only have sons and no daughters? I was wondering if there were any clues there.
Monica
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Hello Monica
The fact that William did not appear on the English 1861 census made me think he should be on the Scotland one, although it is quite possible that his father had died by this time. John Bryden is shown as an Ironmonger, but what might help is that when he married in 1865, William's occupation was a Merchant and at some point after that he owned a large drapery store, so he was obviously a well educated man.
Mike
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Mike
Going back to the 1851 Census, and with the info re occupation for William, this is the only other option I can see:
BRYDEN Ann, daughter of Margaret Bryden, DRESSMAKER, 35, born Troqueer Kbt
BRYDEN Catherine, daughter of Margaret Bryden, MILLINER, 30, born Troqueer Kbt
BRYDEN John, grandson of Margaret Bryden, SADDLER apprentice, 16, born Dumfries Dms
BRYDEN Margaret, head of household, widow, 72, born Canonbie Dms
BRYDEN Robert, grandson of Margaret Bryden, 11, born Dumfries Dms
BRYDEN Thomas, grandson of Margaret Bryden, PAINTER apprentice, 18, born Dumfries Dms
BRYDEN William, grandson of Margaret Bryden, 14, TAILOR apprentice, born Dumfries Dms
GORDON Marion, boarder in household of Margaret Bryden, ANNUITANT, 81,
born Dumfries Dms
MAREN Helen, SERVANT, 19, b Dumfries Dms
Address: 119 High Street(821), Dumfries
Now to make sense of that family!
Monica
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Is this William in 1881?:
William BRYDONE Head W 45 Scotland Draper
Jessie G. BRYDONE Daur 16 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Annie BRYDONE Daur 15 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Annie HAIR Housekeeper U 43 Scotland Housekeeper
Address: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
If this is William and family? Do you know the names of all the children, particulary the early ones following his marriage in 1865 (If he followed Scottish naming patterns, it would be good to get some clues re his mother's name).
Monica
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I think this might be Margaret Brydon, head/widow showing in 1851. From IGI, these look like entries for the two daughters showing in 1851 (although the ages for both seem 10 years out...oh the joy of census ages!):
To parents Thomas BRYDON and Margaret ELLIOT:
1. ANN BRYDEN Christening: 19 AUG 1806 Troqueer, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
2. CATHERINE BRYDEN Christening: 06 MAR 1809 Troqueer, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
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Found this marriage on IGI, right place, right time frame:
JOHN BRYDONE Marriages: Spouse: JANET GORDON
Marriage: 23 JAN 1832 Dumfries, Dumfries, Scotland
No children showing for them on IGI, however, from SP, and the Old Parish Registers we have:
1832 BRYDONE THOMAS
1834 BRYDONE JOHN GORDON
1835 BRYDONE WILLIAM
1838 BRYDONE ROBERT
All showing as born in Dumfries Dms.
Looking a good possibility now!
We need to find a marriage cert for one of the sons, to show father John as an Ironmonger........
Monica
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Monica
I have checked William's death record and he was 78 when he died in 1918, so his birth has to be close to 1840.
On a previous check of the 1851 census I found the Margaret you mention, but I think William is too old, however I also found Jean Bryden (widow) with a son, William age 11, living at Summerhill in Hollywood. What is interesting is that her husband (whoever he was) must have been quite a bit older as there is a stepdaughter (age 28) at the same address.
The problem is there is no way that I can think of confirming these as my relatives.
With regards to William's children, unfortunately that is no help with names like Harry, Walter, William and Louisa, although the eldest son's middle name was John.
I had previously checked the Brydone name in various trade directories for Liverpool and there were several people living in that area with that name, so I think that name's a no go.
Mike
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MIke
I did see the entry with Jean Bryden. I think the husband/father was David. From a submitted entry on IGI:
David Bryden Birth: 07 SEP 1848 Holywood, Dumfries, Scotland
Parents: Father: David Bryden Mother: Jane Johnston
And an actual extract on IGI for their marriage:
DAVID BRYDON Marriages: Spouse: JANE JOHNSTONE
Marriage: 22 APR 1838 Glencairn, Dumfries, Scotland
Monica
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Mike
I think I'm changing my name to 'Clapped out 2'!
The William Bryden (parents John and Janet Gordon) I posted earlier born Dumfries, was living in Liverpool by the late 1850s. He came back to marry a local girl from Dumfries in 1860, Annie Douglas. This is William who I thought might be yours in the 1881 Census in Liverpool showing as a widower, with the occupation of Draper. Small world!
From the names that you have given for your William's children, I can see that it is the first William that I saw in the 1881 Census (general labourer/wife Louisa).
I'm stuck for the time being, I'll go back and see if there are any other leads.
There actually aren't that many Williams in Dumfries around 1841/51 although we are slowly eliminating most of them.
Monica
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Monica
Now you know why I chose that name!!.
It's true, there aren't many Williams, especially of the right age, it's just a case of finding the right family. I think the one clue might be that John was an Ironmonger.
Many thanks for your time in looking.
Mike
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Many thanks for everyone's help.
Mike
:D :D
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mike, i have just started doing my family tree and find that i am related to william bryden, a tailor/draper from dumfries, he is my gggg grandfather (or one of those Gs anyway!)... trying to find out more information - hope that we can chat about it.... although it was a long time since this post - hope to hear from you soon.
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Hello Barbara
I'm still around, although I've completed my William Bryden search apart from in Scotland as I can't get sufficient information to go any further.
The William I was looking for was in fact William Walter not William James and he was born in 1839 in Johnstone Parish. Most of my research has been based on the English side as he migrated with his mother to Liverpool in the 1850's.
Sorry I can't be of any help, but best of luck with your search.
Mike