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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: krystalRose59 on Sunday 07 November 04 16:46 GMT (UK)
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I have a copy of my grgrgrgranfa military record from Kew.He served as a S % M for 20 years,187 days,retiring due to acute rhumetism in his back.I would like to know what duties he might of performed during his service 1827-1848-Woolwich,UK
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The trenches in which the soldiers fought were called saps, so the Sappers were the men who dug the trenches. (My Dad did this job too.)
If your your relative was formerly a miner he could have been enlisted in the army especially to dig tunnels under the German lines. At one point on the Somme 26tons of explosive was placed under a German emplacement and blew a massive hole in the ground visible today.
Mike
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thank-you very much for your input.Since I posted the original message,I have found out that engineers[sappers & miners].were the first on the scene of an oncomming battle.They would dig a trench under the enemies bases[ie castles] and find the major load bearing beams.A fire would be started upon these beams and the engineers would retreat to safety.Most Sappers and Miners are known for thier consumption of large quantities of alcohol.Thus eleiviating the pressures of the job and to dull the visions of thier partners deaths.I know my ancestor served in Gibraltar, Canada and abroad. I am most interested in knowing exactly what type of duty that he would have been responsible for. Again thank-you and happy new year
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Woolwich was the headquarters of the Royal Artillery and the Royal Horse Artillery. The Sappers is another common term used for the Royal Engineers.
He did not dig trenches in any war with Germany as none existed at that time - sorry Mike.
As a sapper attached to Royal Artillery his duties are most likely to have been construction of gun emplacements.
Gibraltar was Britain's great fortress controlling the Mediterranean and acting as a supply point, during his service, for Naval operations against the Barbary slavers - no major power wars right then.
Canada may have been during the War of 1814 when the USA made some attempts to conquer Canada but only got the original White House in Washington burned down. 8)
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Try the book 'Bird Song' by Sebastian Faulks, once you get through the first bit which is boring, loads of the rest of the book is devoted to exactly what this thread is about. Miners and soldiers digging and fighting in tunnels. Its a novel, but worth a read if you can find it. :)
Lindy
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Hi
If he served in Gibraltar he was probably employed in digging out the tunnels and gun emplacements inside the "rock". There are I believe actually more miles of roads inside the rock than there are outside and they are still in use.
regards
Smokey
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The Royal Engineers have a museum and records place at Brompton Barracks, between Gillingham and Chatham, Kent. Try them and they might have more information - even records of his service?
http://www.army.mod.uk/royalengineers/museum/
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The Royal Sappers and Miners were raised in 1812 and they were responsible for fortifications and field engineering. Woolwich was their main training Depot until it moved to Chatham in 1850's.
As your great grandfather served abroad it its likely that he was involved building fortifications.
The RE Museum has recently re-vamped its web site and has more information
http://www.remuseum.org.uk/rem_his_history.htm#null click on the Engineer Soldiers Link it contains information about the Sappers and Miners.
Hope that helps
Simon
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In the mid 1800s the Ulster headquarters of the Corps of Royal Sappers and Miners was located at Enniskillen, Co. Fermanagh. In the last quarter of the nineteenth century one of the tasks of the survey team was at the new barracks at the Curragh military camp in Co. Kildare.
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I am researching my family tree and there is a direct relative who served with the Royal Sappers and Miners. At his gravesite there is a small stone marker next to his gravestone and I would like to know if anyone knows what is the meaning? The image is attached and the marker is the one on the right.
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Looks to me like simply the support for a rail surrounding the grave or the area the grave is in. More ornate in stone rather than the modern concrete ones which look similar.
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Thanks Alan,
I thought that it might be some sort of support except that there is only one and there are no railings or any other kind of dividers anywhere near this grave. And the hole depression that is visible on the front is also on the other 3 sides.
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HI,
I saw your questions relating to Royal Sappers. I just saw on findmypast.com that my 3rd great grandfather, Andrew Paton (from Shotts, Scotland) was part of the Royal Sappers. His record on findmypast.com shows him as a deserter in 1828. Something new to learn!
Is there any way that I could find out more on his military record?
Thanks,
Dawn
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Hi Dawn
I take it you mean the FindMyPast deserters record? I have the original and it is badly indexed by FindMyPast who as usual have cut corners, and made mistakes in their haste to get it online.
Firstly the date is 29 February 1828. It also says he deserted off furlough, and he was a collier, aged 23. If you PM me with an email address I will send it to you. The description is very detailed down to the colour of his eyebrows.
Captured deserters almost always lost the right to a pension, and were usually branded with a D for a second offence. As most surviving records come from the pension departments you will probably not find anything else online. The best way forward is to research the muster books in Kew – they are not online. The problem is that there are about seven musters covering 1828, so you may have to look at them all. These appear to cover one year only so the amount of detail should be good. Once you have his company you can check older musters to get his enlistment, and later ones (assuming he was recaptured) to get a full picture of his service.
Ken
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I will email today to find out more
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Would anyone be kind enough to look up John Dykes who join in the late 1800's and was posted in Greenwich. Any info on him would be great. Thanks ???
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You need to supply more information such as date/place of birth - even a guess. The Sappers and Miners merged with the Royal Engineers in 1856. So was he in the Royal Engineers? They retained 'Sapper' as their equivalent to Private.
Ken
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Thank you Ken, the person I wanted to contact was away on school holiday. I found out he was born in 1782 in Audlem to John Dykes and Elizabeth (nee Bullock). He joined army in 1800 (we think) and went to Woolwich. What we would like to know if we could find out what he did in the army for 20 years as a Sapper and Miner. Did he go to War? My guess that it was the late 1800's he joined was certainly way out. Thanks a lot.
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John Dykes' record is on Findmypast. He received five pounds to take his wife and five children from Woolwich back to Chester, when he was discharged in 1819.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo97%2f1225%2f260%2f001&parentid=gbm%2fwo97%2f1225%2f706214
It does not mention serving overseas.
Ken
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Thanks a lot Ken, I cant get into Find my Past - not a member. 5.00 pounds doesnt sound a lot but in 1820 I understand it would have been worth about 450 pounds, certainly enough to buy a house and start a business. His son came to Australia as a convict a few short years later. Sad they would have never seen him again. Very surprised with England in the midst of the Napoleonic Wars that he didnt serve overseas thought that they would need "diggers" etc. rather than swanning it back home in Woolwich while his compatriots gave their life in the War. Believed the need for "all hands on deck" must have meant that he was left home for a reason. Would he have lived at those Impressive Woolwich Barracks I remember photographing years ago? Thank you for your help on this one. :) ???
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He would have worked on home fortifications; and maybe on the Royal Military Canal which used civilian diggers, but soldiers - almost certainly Sappers and Miners - built the parapet made from the soil extracted to form the canal, or the road that ran alongside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal
Ken
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The Royal Sappers and Miners were raised in 1812 and they were responsible for fortifications and field engineering.
An ancestor of mine joined the Royal sappers and Miners on 6th July 1811 as a bugler. he was 11 1/2 years old!
He served in Netherlands and France from 1813 to 1818 - still as a boy soldier. When he was 18 he became a Private (his record does not mention a rank of Sapper). After 1818 all his service was at home - several years in Ireland working on the Irish survey. Two of his children were born in Ireland (at Dunleer and Finglas).
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They had Privates in the Sappers and Miners. They took Sapper with them when they joined with the Royal Engineers.
Lizzie...he would have joined the Corps of Royal Military Artificers in 1811.
Ken
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The Sappers and Miners were very much involved in the wars. There was a lot of work for them in the Peninsular War. They and the Royal Engineers were retitled Royal Engineers since 1856. The reason for the separate titles previously was that Royal Engineers were the professional engineers and of officer rank.
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They had Privates in the Sappers and Miners. They took Sapper with them when they joined with the Royal Engineers.
Lizzie...he would have joined the Corps of Royal Military Artificers in 1811.
Ken
No mention of the Corps of Royal Military Artificers on his Service record, only mentions Royal Sappers and Miners. But I suspect these records have been copied many times, the record I have is for his discharge due to ill health in 1830, perhaps they overlooked that he had actually joined before the S and M came into existence.
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There wouldn't be Lizzie. Progression of titles:-
1787 - Royal Engineers -officers
Corps of Royal Military Artificers, NCO's and men.
1812 - Corps of Royal Sappers and Miners
1856 and since, all Royal Engineers