RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent Lookup Requests => Kent => England => Kent Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: atth2o on Sunday 07 November 04 16:43 GMT (UK)
-
I am trying to prove a second marriage which would link a whole new branch to my tree. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
This is what I know:
Willam Attwater - born June 4, 1826 in Halstow, Kent.
1878 - Marriage reference found for Agnes COVENEY to William Attwater in Canterbury & Swale District (Kent registration services) A little confusing as I thought her name was Agnes FRANCES.
1833 - Estimated birth year for Agnes - Ospring, Kent
1881 census - Sittingbourne with wife Agnes.
1891 census - Sittingbourne with wife Agnes.
1901 census - Sittingbourne with wife Agnes.
Buried with William in Sittingbourne Cemetery.
This is what I suspect:
Possible first marriage: 1844 to Effield CHAMBERS in Canterbury & Swale District (Kent registration services)
IGI birth for Effield - 25 JAN 1829 Milton Next Sittingbourne, Kent, England
1871 census - Faversham with wife Effield
1876 - Death reference found on Free BMD (March Quarter, 1876, ATTWATER, Effield, Age 47, Milton, 2a, 524?)
Buried in Sittingbourne Cemetery
My conclusions & questions:
I suspect that this William ATTWATER is the same person. On the census data the birth place is the same. Although there is minor age changes recorded in the census, it only changes by 2 years between 1841 to 1901.
Is there any way of proving this is the same William?
Will a marriage certificate state that this is his second marriage (to Agnes)?
Is Frances possibly a middle name for Agnes?
Or was Agnes possibly married before?
Any help is greatly appreciated. What are your thoughts? :-\
-
Hi Nancy
Have you made any progress with this one yet?
Best wishes
Casalguidi
-
Hi Nancy,
Hope this helps ...
Effield is such an unusual name and when I looked it up on Ancestry I was intrigued to see an Effield Attwater, born Sittingbourne c 1887, living with parents Richard and Mary Ann in Hoo, Kent. I wondered if Richard were the child of the first marriage and he called his daughter after his mother.
Then I found the following family on the 1861 census in South Shoebury, Essex:
William Atwater, c1827, Halstow, Kent, England, Head, brickmaker
Effield Atwater1829, Milton, Kent, England, Wife
Richard Atwater, c1845, Sittingbourne, Kent, Son, brickmaker
William Atwater, c1851, Kingsland, Middlesex, England, Son
Florence Atwater, c1860, Sittingbourne, Kent, England, Daughter
Both William and Richard (born c.1846, Sittingbourne) are shown as brickfield labourers in the 1891 census.
QED, wouldn't you think?
Cheers,
Ros
-
Hi Ros,
Yes, Richard is the son of William and he did name a daughter Effield. Thank you for looking into my enquiry. I really appreciate your assistance. :-*
Nancy
-
Hello Nancy,
I have a little piece of your puzzle that may help clear up some confusion.
Agnes Harriet Wills FRANCIS was christened at Faversham on 24 July 1835, the daughter of James and Amy FRANCIS. James was a musician. James and Amy had 13 other children in addition to Agnes commencing in 1816 up to 1841. James also had married previously and had one child by that marriage during 1813. It is interesting to note that a number of surnames were used as part of most of the children's names, for example Ladson, Lester, Ring, King, Goldsmith, Blundell, Barling and Wills.
James and Amy did not live in Faversham at the time of the 1851 census. In 1841 the Francis family was living in Faversham with some missing, but Agnes at age 5 is present in the home. The family unit was found in E.D. No. 1, on page 14: James FRANCIS 55, Edward 15, Ellen 14, Julia 13, Charles 12, John 10, Amy 7, Agnes 5.
So at least you know that an Agnes FRANCIS did exist in 1841 of about the birth year. I do not have a marriage for Agnes FRANCIS in Faversham, however, so if she is one and the same lady, then the marriage happened elsewhere. Neither is there a burial of an Agnes FRANCIS at Faversham up to 1900!
I hope this smidgen of information helps.
Regards,
Susan
-
Hello Nancy,
I'd be interested to hear if you do link your family with Agnes Francis from Faversham. I'm descended from James Francis, through his son Frederick Lester Francis. I've been trying to trace what happened to as many of his brothers and sisters as possible.
All the best,
Alex
-
James FRANCIS married Sarah ELLIOT 27 April 1812 in Faversham.
Their child:
1) Frederick Elliot – bapt 8 Dec 1813 and buried 2 Jan 1814
Sarah had died 21 Nov 1813.
James FRANCIS married Amy WILLS on 29 May 1815 Hernehill, Kent (Amy 19 and witnesses William WILLS and Lydia Mills ?Wills)
Their children - all christened Faversham, Kent
1) Elizabeth Ladson Francis Christening: 14 JUL 1816
2) Frederick Lester bapt 21 Nov 1817married Mary Ann Ditch 26 Feb 1841 in Cranbrook(1 son – Thomas Ditch F). Then his cousin, Sarah DUNK in 1842 and then Elizabeth FORD (probably a widow as surnamed 'Mills') 23 Oct 1860, Holy Trinity, Dover, Kent. Died 16 Jan 1900 Dover, Kent1. Buried 20th. 1881 living Dover 'professor of singing and music'
3) James King 20 Aug 1819 – buried 2 Sept 1819 Faversham
4) James Ray chr 8 May 1820, married Elizabeth Rowe KIND, 4th Q 1851 and died 1st Q 1907 Horsham. 5 dts with mother's, sister's names
5) Walter Goldsmith ch 21 Aug 1822 and became photographer. Married Elizabeth MANZI 1859 and died 1st Q 1877 Greenwich. 4 dts. 2 sons. One of dtrs is 'Amy Wills,' In 1861 listed as 'boarder' in Burwash. He was a photographer
6) Edward Thomas Ladson chr 11 June 1824 and died post 1851
7) Ellen Elizabeth Ladson Christening: 21 DEC 1825, married Henry Jackson 23 June, 1846 in Wandsworth, Surrey, died post 1881 in Hertfordshire
8) Julia Caroline King (maternal grandmother's maiden name)
Christening: 10 OCT 1827 Faversham,
9) Charles William Lester 28 April 1830, Married Eliz. Rebecca HESLOP on 29 April 1852, death Oct 1875 in Monmouthshire, Wales2. Publican at time of eldest son's birth – 3 sons. dtr
9) John Blundell chr 11 July 1832. Married Elizabeth PHILLIPS in 1852. Died in 1st Q 1870 in Kent but had lived in 1861 in Birmingham. Named a son after ETL in 1859 which suggests perhaps his brother died at that time.
10) Amy Mary Barling Francis Christening: 20 NOV 1833, married William Penton HARE 1 Aug 1853 Southwark and died 3rd Q 1876. 2 dts
11) Agnes Harriet Wills Francis Christening: 24 JUL 1835, married Samuel Mordy Hulbert 19 Dec 1858 Southwark . Had 2 dtrs, 1 son. One of dtrs named Amy and other uses 'Wills' as middle name. Died 2nd Q 1871, greater London. Father & Eliz. Manzi were the witnesses
12) Henry Willliam chr 16 May 1837 and died 1st Q 1838
13) Emma King born 1838 and died 1848
14) Esther Victoria Adelaide Francis - Christening: 20 JAN 1841. married Charles Brightiff in 1860 and died 1870 in Hampshire. 3 dtrs, 1 son including an 'Amy Wills'
1851 census (wife almost certainly dead).
James Frances is living in Bermondsey with 2 of his sons
James Frances born Ruckinge* in Kent. Muscian 67
William G Frances Musician 29
John B Frances Hairdresser 19
This son later also became a musician and married an Elizabeth Philips and moved to Gravesend.
I haven't found wife Amy in either the 1841 or 1851 censes. Would love to.
I also haven't found a death for James Francis post 1861 and prior to 1871. The Bermondsey death in 1862 says the boy is 19. So unless it should be 79 - this isn't him.
-
Hi Janet,
Very pleased to see your information about the Francis family.
I have some more information about them which I've found over the years since my last post on here.
An Amy Francis, of the correct age to be James' wife Amy Wills, was buried in All Saints, Rotherhithe, Southwark, Surrey on 22 March 1856. She was living at Cecilia Place, Spa Road.
In 1851 she was in Milton, Gravesend with three of her children. Haven't figured out a connection for why she would have been there. She also lists her husband's profession as a shoemaker, which is what James apprenticed to be, rather than musician which is what he'd been listing his profession as for at least a couple of decades. I do wonder if perhaps there was a bit of a rift over how he was earning a living. I couldn't find her, or the other missing family members, in 1841 either.
Amy's brother William Wills was transported to Australia for his part in the Courtney Revolt, a peasants revolt in the 1830s. If you Google the Battle of Bosenden Wood, you can find an account from the time that mentions him. An extraordinary story.
Elizabeth Ford was married to the manager of the George Inn in Cranbrook (surname Mills) at the time Frederick Lester Francis was living there, so that would be where they met. Don't know why they moved to Dover, but interestingly my Grandfather visited Frederick's daughter Sarah Emily, his Aunt, in Dover during WW1. Her brother Frederick Henhurst, my Great Grandfather, emigrated to Canada. My Grandfather kept a diary during that visit and mentioned she showed him the house his father was born in. Except his father and Sarah were born in Cranbrook. Maybe he just got confused, but it suggests Sarah herself might not have known about her father's life before they moved to Dover when she was a very little girl. Possibly suggests that for some reason Frederick Lester wanted to start a new life away from Cranbrook.
I haven't found anything to suggest Sarah Dunk and Frederick Lester Francis were cousins. Can I ask where you found that?
I've been working on taking the Francis family further back from this if you're interested.
Alex
-
Yes, I'd be very interested in finding out more. I'm a descendent of Julia Caroline King FRANCIS.
Could you put up the census results for the 1851 that you found for Amy Francis?
I did come across that brother William Wills was transported. He was a witness at their wedding (might have been her father perhaps?).
I wonder where she was in 1841. I tried a search the other day for her + other children but didn't find her in either.
Have you found a death for James FRANCIS (husband of Amy Wills?) I'm beginning to think the '19' year old in Bermondsey is him and the number should have been 79 - it fits with age and place. Anyone want to buy the death certificate?
How do we get in touch apart from this? Private message?
-
Hi,
In 1851 Amy was living at 4 John Street, Milton, Gravesend. Listed as the Head, married, 45, wife of a shoemaker, born in Hernehill, Kent. Her unmarried daughters Amy, 17, Agnes, 15 and Esther, 9, all born in Faversham, were with her. Another family shared the same house, William Eves, listed as Head, 59, a gardener born in Bexhill, Kent, his wife Ann, 57, who I think was born in Exeter (the enumerator gets the lines muddled up), and their children Matilda and Charles. The neighbour was a Henry Eves, 26. I couldn't find any other neighbours that would be likely relatives of Amy, and haven't found a connection to the Eves, so no idea what she was doing there.
In 1861 James is in Bermondsey living with his son Walter (who was away for the census but Walter's wife Elizabeth is there with him). I've seen the 1859 marriage certificate for Walter and Elizabeth and James was the witness. His signature is very, very shaky, so I always assumed the 1862 one was his. On FreeBmd the age isn't transcribed so perhaps it was very hard to read?
I found a will for Richard Francis of Mersham, born 1682, who from the property he owned, and where children lived I feel confident is the right person to be James' great grandfather, via his father John Francis married to Sarah Thurston, and his grandfather John Francis married to Catherine Kennet. I can't find my notes from the National Archives where I found the will, though, and hadn't typed them up yet, so need to have a proper look for them to confirm everything. When I do I'll put the rest of the tree back to him together. Assuming he is the right person, almost certainly his father was Leonard Francis married to Elizabeth Draper in Mersham in 1681. That's as far back as I've managed to go with the Francis line so far.
-
Is there any way of proving this is the same William?
Will a marriage certificate state that this is his second marriage (to Agnes)?
I see you haven't been online here since 2012 but did you get any further with the original query, atth2o? Did you ever get the 1844 & 1878 marriage certificates?
They will state William's father's name & occupation for comparison, also whether Agnes was a spinster or widow.
-
25 December 1844 Milton-Next-Sittingbourne, Kent, England
William ATTWATER, Father MARSHALL Attwater
Effield CHAMBERS, Father RICHARD Chambers
24 Dec 1878, Upchurch, Kent
William ATTWATER age 52, Widowed, Father MARSHALL Attwater
Agnes COVENEY, 46, Single, Father WILLIAM Coveney
Both on Familysearch.Org
Even if the original poster is not around it may help someone else in the future.
Trish :)
-
Okay - I have got back to John Francis married to Sarah Thurston and then the previous generation with Katherine Kennett. Not sure which birth is hers. Do you know?
Yes, I'd be very interested in the transcription for the Richard F will ... also how do you know that James Francis (musician) originally apprenticed as a shoemaker?
Can you please attach the 'shaky' signature of James Francis?
Thank you so much. I feel the urge to get digging again with this branch of the family.
-
Good finds, Trish. I didn't look any further myself but as you say, may help someone sometime.
-
Hi Janet,
A fellow named Wallace Harvey wrote a book about Thomas Clark, a composer, who was friends of James Francis, and wrote "James Francis became a singer of some renown, was apprenticed to William Clark, Cordwainer of St. George's Street, Canterbury about 1803 and became in consequence a great friend of Thomas the musical composer, son of William Clark. James married and lived at Faversham. He raised a large family of whom three sons, Frederick, Walter and Edward were very musical."
James mentions his profession as shoe maker in the 1813 Faversham baptism records, and In 1830 he was made a Freeman of the City of Canterbury, listed as having apprenticed with William Clarke as a Cordwainer (shoemaker) from 1795 for 7 years.
I don't have a birth for Catherine Kennett. There was one born in 1724 in Boughton Aluph, which is only 6 miles from where John Francis and Catherine got married, so could well be the right one, but just a guess for now.
I'm not sure how to attach documents, or whether that's allowed here for copyright reasons?
-
villiam Attwater
England, Kent, Parish Registers, 1538-1911
Name:
William Attwater
Ereignistyp:
Marriage
Ereignisdatum:
24 Dec 1878
Ereignisort:
Upchurch, Kent, England
Geschlecht:
Male
Alter:
52
Familienstand:
Widowed
Geburtsjahr (geschätzt):
1826
Name des Vaters:
Marshall Attwater
Name des Ehepartners:
Agnes Coveney
Geschlecht des Ehepartners:
Female
Alter des Ehepartners:
46
Familienstand des Ehepartners:
Single
Geburtsjahr des Ehepartners (geschätzt):
1832
Name des Vaters des Ehepartners:
William Coveney
Ifound this on the Latter Day Saints site, Wlliam Attwater, year of birth approx.1826,name of father Marshall Attwater. married 24th december Upchurch Kent, male, age 52, widowed, married Agnes Coveney,female age 46 single, year of birth approx 1832 name of father William Coveney,
well it is his second marriage as it says he is widowed.
hope this helps
-
Huron - Have you ever transcribed the Richard Francis will?
-
Is this your Francis family?:
From the Finn survey of Mersham's inhabitants.
Mr & Mrs Francis Snr. Stature short. Grocers of the Forstall. Thomas & John sons. Stout, of the same, shoemakers. Stout, of the same, good neighbours & quiet people.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01t8c/
There is a transcript of a will for Leonard Francis of Mersham
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~mrawson/fran1716.html
-
thank you for the will. I think it proves that Richard and his father, Leonard aren't my ancestors for their is no mention of 'John as a son of Richard in the will.