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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: jackspratt on Tuesday 26 September 06 19:44 BST (UK)
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I wonder if anyone is able to locate Robert Potts and his family in the 1841 census for me?
I'm afraid the information I have is scant - only that there was a daughter Margaret born in 1839 in Cramlington and possibly a younger daughter Mary may have been born in time for the census. She also was born in Cramlington so I presume the family was still there in 1841.
Margaret married in 1859 while living in High Street Gateshead in Co. Durham where her father was presumably living. He is described on the certificate as a pitman.
If the family could also be found there in 1861 I would be grateful for information.
Many thanks
Jackspratt
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Jackspratt,
No good candidates seen on Census 1841 ( which records no relationships). No Robert Potts in Cramlington.
On C1851 (2412-511-57) in Stone Row, Cramlington there is a 11 yr old Margaret Potts, living in as a servant to a Dunn family. No Robert Potts in Cramlington.
Who did Margaret marry in Gateshead in 1859. Do you mean Gateshead itself or Gateshead Registration District.
What name did Margaret and her husband give to their first dtr ?
Michael Dixon
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Thanks for your interest Michael.
She married John Johnson in Gateshead Parish Church (St.Mark's).
First daughter was Ellen - no precedents in the Johnson family as far as I'm aware.
Robert is proving quite elusive - I'm guessing he moved around a bit more than was usual. A lot of new pits were being opened at that time and it looks as if he was making use if them as far as they were able then.
Thanks again.
Jack
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Jack,
I asked for name of their first dtr, as, if they were following the "rules" of the English Naming Pattern, which most people did in C19th, they would/should have called first dtr after Margaret's mother.
But looking at the constitution of family( on C1871 4966-32-26) I don't think they were following the pattern ( you can find several sites via Google which explains the pattern.)
I think John Johnson's mother was Martha, and it seems that John/Margaret did not name a dtr Martha (Dtr no2 should have been named Martha).
But for C1851 (2412-521-3) in East Cramlington, there was a 35-yr old widow, ELEN Potts, pauper, born Elswick, with two dtrs, Mary, 9, and Elizabeth, 7, both born Cramlington. Also in the house was an unmarried lodger from Norfolk, Robert Ellis, 35 yrs old ( I think).
Free BMD has the death registration at Tynemouth, of a Robert Potts, in March Qtr of 1847. ( Cramlington lay in the reg. district of Tynemouth).
You said Margaret and John married in 1859 in Gateshead parish church, St Marks. ??
FreeBMD has marr reg of Margaret Potts/John Johnson @ Gateshead Reg District 1858, not 1859.
And St MARY's was Gateshead "parish". Where was St Mark's??.
Michael Dixon
Have you seen the John/Margaret family on C1861 (3740-38-35) ?
Is that a two year old SON, (Ancestry has transcribed him as Allinder M Johnson) .. I wonder what happened to him. ?
John Johnson was near Seaton Delaval on C1841
(820/19-42-2... his dad also John. Then on C1861 they had moved to High Fell Gateshead (2402-426-29)
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Thank you Michael for your comprehensive reply.
I knew about the naming system - though I'm not sure they always did.
I have the details of the Johnsons and you are correct in pinpointing them at Seaton Delaval in 1841. Ultimately John Johnson snr moved back to Morpeth - he was born in Mitford- In 1851 they were at Steads farm Mitford and in 1861 at East High House Farm, High Stanners, Morpeth. I think the mother's name Martha has been transcribed incorrectly. She is Mary (Lewins, I believe) in subsequent censuses and this is followed in the naming of daughter after her though, of course, it's a common enough name in those days.
Yes I've seen the 1861 Johnson family. I rather think that the Mary Potts named as married may not have been. She's the Mary that I think might be Margaret's sister (Mary Potts was a witness at the wedding of John and Margaret) and I think her twins and Allinder (Alexander?) could be illegitimate. The birth of twins to Margaret was imminent and I think she was there to help out . I looked for Mary and her boys some time ago and seem to remember that they disappeared off the radar. I assumed she'd married.
I have the marriage certificate showing the marriage on Jan 9 1858. Looking more closely it might be St. Mary's not St. Marks. In any event it is shown at the bottom to be the Parish Church.
The Johnsons took some unravelling - I was unfortunate enough to have come through a long line of John Johnsons. But I was fortunate that at least they came from Morpeth where there weren't so many.
I was hoping that the Potts coming from Cramlington, where there are a number of that name, might be easier but so far that hasn't proved to be the case, there being a number of Roberts . However, I shall try to follow up the possible leads you have kindly supplied and see where that leads me.
Many thanks
Jack
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Well it appears I got the wrong Johnson family in Seaton Delaval (then moving on to Gateshead)
What made this family (headed by John/Martha) promising was that on C1851 ( 2402-426-29), they had a 20 yr-old John Johnson, who was a blacksmith, which fitted nicely with Margaret Potts husband John Johnson... who on C1861 was 30 and a blacksmith.
Mary Potts, living in with the Johnsons in Cassop is recorded as UNMARRIED. ( or more accurately the abbreviation for unmarried, )and the 2 yr old "son" is named Johnson, not Potts, and enumerators recorded people in terms of their relationship to the Head of the household.( in this case John Johnson).
What boys did Mary Potts have ?
I hope I am not confusing things, with my big sneck !
Michael Dixon
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Jack,
I have just seen on C1851 (2418-132-10) in Mitford, the family headed by the Mitford-born JOHN JOHNSON and wife Mary.
His 19 yr old son, JOHN, a farm labourer, is recorded as been born in WOODHORN ( near modern-day Ashington)
On Census 1861, ( 3740-38-35) the JOHN JOHNSON who married Margaret Potts, is recorded as a Blacksmith and as been born in SEATON DELAVAL.
And on C1851 ( 2402-426-29) in Low Fell Gateshead, John, the son of John and Martha Johnson is a 20 yr old Blacksmith, born in Northumberland ( the Gateshead enumerator only recorded birth-counties, not birth-places.
So if you believe me, there are two candidates for the JOHN JOHNSON who married Margaret Potts..... in Gateshead in 1858, and was 30yr old and a blacksmith and born Seaton Delaval on C1861 (3740-38-35)..
No.1. The farm labourer, 19 yrs on C1851, born Woodhorn, living in Mitford, Northumberland in 1851, son of John/Mary.
No.2. The blacksmith, 20 yrs on C1851, born Northumberland, son of John/Martha, living in Low Fell Gateshead in 1851.
Over to you,
Michael Dixon, with apologies.
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Hello Michael
I'm having to rewrite this as I tried to attach a photograph of Gateshead High Street in 1924 (you appear to have an interest in that area). Unfortunately I did it at the end of my first reply and it succeeded in obliterating everything I'd written. If you'd like to see the photo and you can tell me how to send it let me know.
I think your big sneck has thrown a spanner in the works.
I had a comfortable and romantic line back to Holy Island Lewins in the 1600s based on the 1901 census entry which said John was born in Morpeth. Previous entries said Seaton Delaval but that's not so far away and many of the 1841 census details seemed to be OK.
He was my mother's grandfather and she referred to his strong Northumbrian burr, with which you are no doubt familiar, so Morpeth fitted nicely.
The marriage to a Gateshead girl seemed a bit of an anomaly but possible.
However, it seems as if I'm going to have another look at it all on the basis of what you uncovered (you were only supposed to be looking at Potts) and rewrite a substantial part of the family history.
Can you let me have details of the 1851 census Gateshead Johnson family to set me on my way again? Reluctantly I have to concede they're probably the proper family. Do you have the 1861 and '71 details as well, if that's not imposing too much?
My only excuse in this is that there are an awful lot of John Johnsons around in the Northern counties.
Many thanks
Jack
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PS.
I only know about the children of Mary Potts that are shown in the 1861 census ie Allinder (Alexander) M aged 2 and twin boys James and John aged four months.
My guess was that she was there to help with the birth of Margaret's twins but since her own twins were born in Tursdale Colliery perhaps she lived with them. I might well get the certificates for these boys to find out more. (More expense!)
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Well, Jack, I think you are taking the (possible) set-back very well.
I went into a family heritage centre in SligoTown, Ireland, about 15 yrs ago and told them I was looking for my ggf John Gallagher. When I told them I wasn't sure when he was born and did not know in which parish or which town he was born, they all laughed and said .. here's 2000 of them, take your pick !
An old man understood my dilemma and said .. "whatever you do, resist the temptation to ink one of these Johns in, without good proof, keep the contenders in pencil, or you'll regret it ! "
I still have'nt found them there (although) I have every step he took in Northumberland.
I was born in Bebside Colliery (Blyth) and went to school in Morpeth, and yes there were tons of Johnsons about... all over.
In my non-expert opinion, I would say that neither Seaton Delaval nor Morpeth folk speak with a burr... maybe you have to go farther north into the county to get a burr. ?
And of course I will send you all the census stuff ( I assumed you had access to Ancestry) but not tonight (eyes knackered)
I have no connections to Gateshead, although I spent some time researching the Irish who became chemical labourers in Heworth/Felling/Bill Quay in 1800s.
Michael
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Jack,
Twins James and John on C1871 are shown as children of Margaret and John Johnson, not as children of Mary ??
Michael
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Hello again
The copy of the 1861 census details given to me shows Family Number 7432.6 Cassop 1861 census, Tursdale and show the household as John Johnson, Margaret Johnson. Mary Potts, sister-in-law, Allinder (?)[Alexander M.] Potts, James Potts, son, 4 months, John Potts, son 4 months,
A postscript has been added to the effect that Allinder is shown as Johnson in the enumerator's report.
None of these children appear again in the Johnson household but Margaret was to give birth to twins sometime later in the year . I haven't got round to finding out the exact date yet - mainly because they were called John and Thomas and of course difficult to identify. Thomas died when he was 15 and I have got that cert. but of course it doesn't help for his birth.
My mother used to imitate her grandfather's pronunciation of "brown bread" (broon breed) with a strong emphasis on the r on the back of the tongue. He was born in 1832 (or 4 or thereabouts according to which census you believe) so maybe things were different then.
I look forward to the 'proper family' arriving. Let's hope they're even better connected than the 'wrong' one.
I, too, have Irish connections on my father's side in French Park, Roscommon but thankfully have a distant cousin trying to track them down (together with half of Co.Durham and a couple in Australia). I haven't placed any bets on their chances of success.
Thanks in anticipation
Jack
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Jack,
Most Northumbrians, including me say "broon breed", but don't eat it !.
(only kidding.. well half-kidding)
At primary school, we were encouraged to say...
" Round the rugged rock, the ragged rascal ran" ..
without sounding as if we were going to spit !
Michael
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Jack,
For your consideration................
C1841 Lysdon 820/19-42-2
John Johnson, 40 Ag lab N
Martha Johnson 40 Y
John Johnson 12 Ag lab Y
Isabelle Johnson 9 Y
Ann Johnson 7 Y
Mary Johnson 5 Y
Sarah Johnson 3 Y
( Lysdon lay just a touch north from Seaton Delaval. N= not born in this county/Northumberland, Y=born in this county)
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C1851 Beacon Lough, High Fell, Gateshead 2402-426-29
Head John Johnson 52 Ag Lab, born Durham
Wife Martha Johnson 53 b. Northumberland
Son Robert Johnson 22 Ag Lab, b. "
Son John Johnson, Blacksmith, b. "
Dtr, Bell Johnson 18, b. "
Dtr Ann Johnson 16, b. "
Dtr Mary Johnson 14, b. "
Dtr Sarah Johnson, 12, b. "
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More to come...........
Michael Dixon
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C1861 Tursdale Colliery, Cassop. 3740-38-35
Head John Johnson 30 Blacksmith, b.Seaton Delaval
Wife Margaret Johnson 22 , b. Cramlington
Siater-in-law Mary Potts unmarried 20, b.Cramlington
SON Allinder Johnson 2, b. New Brancepath
Allinder looks just like Allinder
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C1871 Tursdale Colliery, Cassop 4966-32-26
Head John Johnson 39 Blacksmith, b. Seaton Delaval*
Wife Margaret 32 b. Cramblton**
Dtr Ellen Johnson 12 b. Sleatburn/Sleakburn
Son Thomas Johnson 10, b.Tursdale
Son John Johnson 10, b. "
Dtr Elizabeth Johnson 8 b. "
Dtr Mary Johnson, 6, b. "
Son William Johnson 4, b. "
Son Robert Johnson, 8mths, b. "
* enumerator wrote "Durham" after Seaton Delaval.. ?
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** On Pronunciation angle... us Blyth folk might say CRAMLINGTON something like "Cramelton" ( Also BEDLINGTON like Beddleton)
Michael Dixon
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Many thanks once again, Michael. You have been very helpful.
There are surprising similarities between the two families both in the parents' ages and in the names and ages of their children. It looks, however, as though I'm going to have to abandon Mitford.
I'm still not totally convinced (or don't want to be) in view of the fact that Mitford John Johnson's children were born in Woodhorn and Widdrington which, am I right in thinking, virtually Seaton Delaval? Not far away anyway.
I'm OK on young John and his family 1871 and after in that I know that I've got the right ones.
What is missing for Gateshead JJ are the birthplaces of himself and his wife and children as they're not given in 1841 or 1851. I see young John's age is missing also in 1851, though he should be 22. In the 1861 census for him in Tursdale that you sent you'll see that he's 30 (he's 39 in 1871) These ages are consistent with young Mitford John who was 19 in 1851.
I'm thinking aloud a bit here but I'm sure that you're getting some sense of my dilemma !
Could I impose on your generousity just once more Michael?
Do you think you could let me have the 1861 census details of Gateshead JJ senior? His birthplace and that of his wife and those of any of his children that are with him still will be of help to me.
Ho hum
Many thanks
Jack
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Jack,
All your chewing over is relevant..... except Woodhorn vis-a-vis Seaton Delaval.
There is little chance of Seaton Delaval been written instead of Woodhorn or vice-versa, other than as a simple mistake !
It is not just a matter of the distance between them ( about 7 miles), but what lies between them !
If we just talk "ancient parishes".... from Woodhorn in the north, coming south, we have to go through the parishes of Newbiggin, then Bedlington, then Horton, then into Earsdon. Seaton Delaval was one of the eight "townships" ( a sub-division of a parish) of the parish of Earsdon.
Also up to 1844, Bedlington ( the wider area was called Bedlingtonshire) was owned by the Prince Bishops of Durham, was was regarded as within the County of Durham, and not part of Northumberland.
I hope to help settle this little geographic issue, by browsing parish records of Woodhorn and Earsdon for Johnson bapts
( images of the church records will be available when the Northumberland County Record Office opens end Oct/beginning Nov,,,, in WOODHORN..... but Newcastle Library has some indexes..)
Michael Dixon
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Thanks Michael - I had no intention of setting you a mission when I started this, you know.
Your obviously a man who when asked to go one mile goes the extra one.
The biggest stumbling block is the lack of a viable alternative entry in 1841. I looked on the 1837 online site but they haven't covered N'land yet.
I had a look for Gateshead J and Martha in the 1837 quick search option and see that they're still there in 1861.
Do you happen to have that census and the details? It might help to bring this quest to a close, possibly, maybe.
Jack
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C1841 836/16-2- ?
North Hirst Farm*
Woodhorn
John Johnson 43 Ag Lab Y(es, born in this county)
Mary Johnson 42 Y
Isabella Johnson 10 Y
John Johnson 8 Y
George Johnson 6 Y
Mary Johnson 3 Y
* Modern-day Ashington is made up of ancient Hirst (eastern part) and the much younger Ashington ( west of the railway line, the station was originally called Hirst, then later Ashington). If you look at site communities.northumberland.gov.uk
enter Ashington, from left-hand menu choose Plans...
click on 1828 map... you will see North Hirst Farm, just west of Woodhorn village........... also if you want to see how the coal industry turned Ashington into "the biggest mining village in the world", go into Ashington's "Ordnance Maps"
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C1851 2418-132-10
Mitford Heads, Mitford
Head John Johnson 52 Ag Lab, b.Mitford
Wife Mary Johnson 50.b. Horton
Dtr Isabella Johnson 20 b.Woodhorn
Son John Johnson 19 Farm Lab. b. Woodhorn
Son George Johnson 17 Farm Lab b. Woodhorn
Dtr Mary Johnson 13 b. Woodhorn
Robert Johnson 6 b. Widdrington
** In early censuses, enumerators tended to enter "birth-parishes" rather than " bith places"
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C1841 820/19 42-2
Lysdon, Seaton Delaval
John Johnson 40 Ag Lab N(ot born in this county)
Martha Johnson 40 Y(es born in this county)
John Johnson 12 Ag Lab Y
Isabella Johnson 9 Y
Ann Johnson 7 Y
Mary Johnson 5 Y
Sarah Johnson 3 Y
This enumerator followed the instructions to round down to units of 5 yrs, all people aged 15 and above. The chap who did Hirst 1841, did not.
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C1851 2402-426-29
Beacon Lough, High Fell, Gateshead
John Johnson 52 Ag Lab, b. Durham
Wife Martha Johnson 53 b. Nbld
Son Robert Johnson 22 Ag Lab,b. "
Son John Johnson 20 Blacksmith b. "
Dtr Bell Johnson 18 b. "
Dtr Ann Johnson 16 b. "
Dtr Mary Johnson 14 b. "
Dtr Sarah Johnson 12 b. "
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C1861 3806-53-8
Sherriff Hill, Gateshead
Head John Johnson 61 Labourer, b. Washington Co Durham
Wife Martha Johnson 63 B. Uglam (this should be, I think, Ulgham, Nbl)
Dtr Ann Johnson unmarried 27 Dressmaker b. Mitford Nbl
Dtr Sarah Johnson u/n 23 b. Mitford
Son*** William Johnson 4 b. Bishop Middleham Co Durham
Son*** John Johnson 1 b. Coundon
*** clues from later census indicates that at least the 1 yr old John was son of Sarah
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More later..............
Who were the witnesses to the Potts/Johnson marriage ?
Michael Dixon
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Hello Michael
Before I go any further I must express my thanks once again for you kindness and generousity (and good humour) in helping me out with this. I can't tell you how glad I am that it was you who responded.
The 1861 Gateshead census almost convinces me that he's not my man. I just wish Ann and Sarah hadn't been born in Mitford.
The Seaton Delaval John's brother, George, married a Jane Cook who was born in Ulgham, which doesn't help. In 1881 he shows himself to be a joiner born in - Morpeth. But looking at Google Earth it's only seven miles from Woodhorn to Morpeth and if he spent much of his early life at Mitford that would seem reasonable - to me, anyway.
I imagine that the 1901 census in which John said he was born in Morpeth was completed by his son in law who was living with him together with J's two sons, his married daughter, two teenage grandsons and a 3 day old granddaughter. At 72 years old I shouldn't think he could stop his head from spinning long enough to complete a census.
The witnesses at the wedding were Mary Potts (more or less where you came in) and William Fairey (it looks like). If Mary hadn't been with them in Tursdale in 1861 I might have thought I had the wrong certificate but it seems OK.
It seems the odds swing back in favour of the Seaton Delaval John with his Northumberland burr, his Mitford father and the connection to Holy Island through his mother. Though I'll have to look carefully at the two families I think. I'm beginning to feel there was a relationship between them.
Thanks once more.
Jack
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Well Jack, the below info that I got today from Newcastle library, might lead to me eating my words... don't throw in the towell yet....
Here goes..
Ulgham Parish. Marriage
14 May 1825
John Johnson >< Martha Pattersaon
Mitford Parish. Baptisms.
16 Sep 1827 Robert Johnson, son to John, labourer, and Martha Johnson, of Low Highley ( good name, eh ? )
15 Nov 1829 John Johnson ditto
16 Oct 1831 Isabella Johnson ditto
3 July 1836 Mary Johnson ditto
11 Feb 1838 Sarah Johnson.. ditto John is described as "hind" (meaning farm labourer)
18 May 1834 Ann JOHNSTON, ditto except place is just Highley and "hind".
Others...
Morpeth Marriage
25 Sep 1828 John Johnson >< Mary Forsyth
Horton Marriage
19 Dec 1829 John Johnson >< Mary Watson.
I could see no relevant Johnson bapts in Earsdon Parish ( which covered Seaton Delaval !
Michael Dixon
Now to chew things over in relation to all other info !
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P.S.
Mitford Parish.
Baptism
John Johnson, born 1 June 1798, baptised 13 June 1798
first son to John Johnson, husbandman, native of the Parish of Kirkwhelpington, by his wife Mary Lewins , native of Morpeth.
Michael Dixon
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That was extraordinarily kind of you Michael.
I'm going to need a rainy day and a big sheet of paper I think but, broadly, I feel I was on the right lines.
It looks as if Martha's John worked in Mitford a while where children were born.
I think you've (nearly) cleared up something that was a bit confusing for me about Seaton Delaval John's father - 1798 Mitford John who I'd decided had married a Chollerton born 1799 Mary Lewins. This was, however, the name of the wife of S.D John's grandfather's wife, the Mary Lewins born 1758 Morpeth who you've picked up, which seemed unlikely, though possible. You've pinpointed the Horton Mary Watson or Morpeth Mary Forsyth instead. It looks as if it comes down to one of those 'balance of probability' scenarios.
As you say - time to chew things over in relation to all the other info you've kindly supplied. I'll do that and try to get off the fence. Just out of interest I'll let you know what I decide.
I hope you won't mind if I come back to you again with any Northumbrian problems that arise. It seems to be one of your areas of expertise. Unfortunately, from your point of view, my queries are likely all to be to do with John Johnsons.
Many thanks
Jack
PS. I just got a pop up saying any of my posts had to be my own work - presumably this was in connection with the census copyright clamp down. I've taken the precaution of copying everything you've told me to Word in case they wipe it - which I believe has happened - so I'll not need to get back to you for a repeat performance.
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I'm sorry to bother you again with this Michael but I was just trying to do my amendments and I'm still not convinced I've got the right man.
I looked at the map to see where Woodhorn is and see that it is near Newbiggin and Ashington, north of Blyth.
My ancestor 1832 John consistently noted through his censuses that he was born in Seaton Delaval which is south of Blyth. It's only in the 1901 census that Morpeth is mentioned and, if he's Martha's son, some of his sister's were apparently born there so maybe his children assumed he was.
So far I haven't seen an entry for Martha's son which actually says where he was born, 1841 and 51 only say Northumberland.
I wonder if you could find him in the 1861 or 71 census to see what he says for a birthplace. I've looked in 1881 and there is one possible candidate living in Tanfield with a daughter called Martha but he was born in Bellingham, which could be a bit too far away. He's not a blacksmith but a coal miner.
I can't really see any other suitable entries.
I know it's a tall order. I tried looking in BMD to see if he died but they just give up when you write John Johnson - at least they do at this time of day.
I won't blame you if you don't feel up to it.
Jack
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Jack,
I am currently trying to sort the Johnsons out. ( a dog with a bone ! )
My hunch is still for John, Martha's son, and yes there is the contradiction that Matha's John was born within the territory* of Mitford and yet the John who married Marg Potts said he was born in Seaton Delaval.
So I am looking for a third John J and other clues to support one of the "two"
* It is dangerous to refer to a modern map when considering places in C19th.
Today Woodhorn is a "place", a small village, hardly separate from Ashington. In 1800s and before, Woodhorn was two entities... a small village, and a wider area including what today is the east of Ashington town, Woodhorn itself, Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, North Seaton, etc. ( for e.g. those Johnson's who were, according to the census, born Woodhorn, my hunch is they were born in Hirst, now Ashington, where they were on C1841 ! ).
When I tidy up all my bits of paper, I will make sure , you end up with it all.
I am currently in Darlington, cat-sitting for a fortnight, with few distractions, so I think me and the cat will crack this case.
Michael
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C1861 3871-6-6
East High House Farm, Newminster Abbey, Morpeth
(Lies on south bank of River Wansbeck, just west of Morpeth Town, approaching Mitford... see Morpeth maps on communities.northumberland.gov.uk)
Head John Johnson, 62, lab b. Mitford
Wife Mary Johnson 61 b.Horton
Dtr Isabella Johnson 30 u/m Gen servant b. Woodhorn
Dtr Mary Johnson 23 u/m b. Mitford ( c1851 it was Woodhorn)
Grandaughter Mary Ann Craigie 9 b. Morpeth
Grandaughter Elizabeth Ann Johnson 1 month b. Morpeth
~~~~~~~~-----
????? C1861 Keel Row, Bedlington ( what is now "Bedlington Station" )
3873-49-32
Head John Johnson 29 lab, b. Woodhorn
Wife Margaret Johnson 27, b. Dinnington
Dtr Mary 2 b. Horton or Harton
~~~~~~~~-------------
??? C1861 3853-104-14
Whalton
Servant in household. George Johnson u/m 26, b. Woodhorn
~~~~~~~~-------------
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Ulgham Parish Marraiges.
But only possibilities ...
Married 18 May 1788. John Patterson >< Isabel Forrest
Married 5 July 1797. John Patterson >< Ruth Smith
( I think more potential in the first one... - English Naming Pattern... John/Martha called their first dtr Isabella ! )
Michael Dixon
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Thanks Michael
I've noted those.
The extraordinary thing here is that if the wife of the 1798Mitford JJ was Mary Watson, who was born in Horton, her mother was probably Isabel Atley who married Robert Watson in Horton in 1793. So the naming pattern continues to apply. John/Mary's first daughter was called Isabella.
There's an odd aura of doom beginning to hang over this enquiry - as if it isn't meant to be resolved.
I have details of Morpeth 1798 JJ for 1861 and 71.
I have John / Mary's son George as marrying a girl from Ulgham, Jane Cook. Although he was born in Woodhorn, in the 1861 and 1881 censuses he says he was born in Morpeth. He appears to be a colliery joiner in North Seaton, despite having still been an Ag. lab aged 17. Unlikely? I can't see his older brother John being able to switch to blacksmith at age 19+, can you? Or have I picked up the wrong one the one you found being the right one?
They had another son Robert in 1844 but I've not been able to find out what became of him.
It's all very difficult but the balance of probability is with John/Martha I feel. There's little to swing it the other way. I don't think there was a concrete statement that John/Martha's John was born in Mitford - just that his sisters were - so it still leaves Seaton Delaval open. We know his parents were out that way.
I think your mission may well be accomplished, don't you?
It's back to kicking the cat and sudoku for amusement.
Again, many thanks.
Jack
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Jack, the vicar of Mitford wrote in his church register that in his church he baptised a John Johnson, on 15 Nov 1829, who was born to John and Martha Johnson of Low Highley ( a couple of parishes away from Seaton Delaval)
But he does not state where this child was born.
But in the baptismal reocrds of the children of John /Martha on eirther side of John's bapt , (Robert and Isabella) he has their residence also as Low Highley.
I have come across instances where a child was born in place A but baptised a few months later at church in place B, as the family had moved.
But this is not the case here.
Michael (still looking for more clues)
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Once more, thanks Michael
This JJ/Martha family is proving very difficult to locate in the IGI.
The Latter Day Saints site provides the the batch numbers for Mitford christenings - P000731 - and I was hoping to find the daughters there but couldn't, nor are Robert or John so obviously the records are not complete. I know that they can be inaccurate but didn't expect entries to be missed.
Did you get your information through Ancestry?
It's beginning to sound as if it might be worth subscribing, although until I came to this confusion I thought I'd broken the back of my researches.
There's an odd reluctance everywhere to putting down in writing where blacksmith John was born. The conspiracy theorists would have a - well, theory - I suppose.
I'm grateful for your persistance.
Jack
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Jack,
I used to visit County Record Offices ( Nbl, Durham, Tyne & Wear, Cleveland) and larger libraries, to dig for the three main sources of info for Fam Hist... Censuses, BMD Registrations and Church records of Bapts, Marriages, Burials... several times a week.
But because of the increasing amount of info on line, I usually only get to "physical" archives to search church records, of which there is not a lot on line..... but growing.
But for Censuses ( 1841-1901) info , I use a commercial web site for ancestry searching.
Michael
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You should be doing it professionally - I'll give you a reference.
There's money in it, you know.
Nick Barret? An amateur by comparison.
Jack
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Jack, I sleep well every night, with a clear conscience !
Michael
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Hello Michael
The Martha Patterson we're looking for appears to be the one in the IGI christened b. 1 Feb 1797 christened 13 Feb 1797 at Ulgham daughter of JNO. Patterson and ISABLE.
John says he was born in Washington but I can't find him there yet. I have a Durham contact who goes to the record office fairly frequently. Do you think I dare ask him to look knowing what you've been through?
Jack
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Jack,
I think you should access any source to get the whole picture !
I have not searched Washington Parish records ( marriages are on line on www.genuki.org.uk ........ Co Durham Parishes)
Michael
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Hello Michael
I dare say you hoped you'd seen the last of the Johnsons but if I may I'd like to refer to you just once more.
You suggested in your reply of 30th Sept. that indications in a later census suggested that John could be the illegitimate child of Sarah.
I wonder if you would mind letting me have the details of that census?
Is it possible you have 1871 census details available for John and Martha or had they left the scene by then?
I'm having problems taking Johnsons further back than 1799 John. Despite his saying he was born in Washington there doesn't appear to be any record of this though there was a presence of Johnsons there for a lot of years previously. So I'd like to flesh out his family as much as I can though even they too are proving elusive.
His wife's family, the Pattersons and Forrests are a bit more accessible. There's an interesting source on Ulgham (which you might have already seen of course). It's at http://ulgham.tripod.com/ulgen/ulgenPQ.htm
Many thanks
Jack
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Jack,
I think I have lost the plot, and many of my notes... but here goes...
On C1861 at Sherriff Hill ( 3806-53-8) a one yr old John is recorded as son of John 61 and Martha 63 child born Coundon.
"3 yr old Sarah Johnson is in h/h as dtr.
On C1871 still in Sh Hill at 5061-65-11 Sarah is now a 34 yr old widow ( married John Drummond in 1865 Gateshead registered.... His death reg at Gateshead 3/89 aged 34.)
Sarah's children are John Drummond 11, Martha Drummond 9, Mary Drummond 6 and William aged 1..
There are no birth regs in appropriate era for a John Drummond, but there are for John Johnson
( Incidentally there is a bith reg in Gateshead RO for a Sarah Drummond, then a death reg in 1868 for the death of a 3 yr old Sarah Drummond ! )
So thast is . I think, why I suggested that John was Saqrah's child and not a child of her parents.
By C1881 Sarah is wife to a John Corbett ( 5041-22-37) with 19 yr old Martha Drummond in Household.
Sorry to have taken so long to reply.
Michael Dixon
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Thank you Michael
I think I might leave this until after Christmas to sort out lest I, too, might lose it.
I'm grateful for your help.
I hope you have a nice Christmas and that the New Year brings you good fortune.
Jack
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Hi, my Great grandmother was Margaret Elizabeth Drinnan. She lived in Gateshead. I also have Mahan, Alderson and Johnson in the family. All North East.