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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: XPhile2868 on Sunday 24 September 06 19:00 BST (UK)
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Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds
By Guy Adams
Published: 20 September 2006
Don't tell the locals, but the hordes of British holidaymakers who visited Spain this summer were, in fact, returning to their ancestral home.
A team from Oxford University has discovered that the Celts, Britain's indigenous people, are descended from a tribe of Iberian fishermen who crossed the Bay of Biscay 6,000 years ago. DNA analysis reveals they have an almost identical genetic "fingerprint" to the inhabitants of coastal regions of Spain, whose own ancestors migrated north between 4,000 and 5,000BC.
The discovery, by Bryan Sykes, professor of human genetics at Oxford University, will herald a change in scientific understanding of Britishness.
People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of central Europe. Professor Sykes, who is soon to publish the first DNA map of the British Isles, said: "About 6,000 years ago Iberians developed ocean-going boats that enabled them to push up the Channel. Before they arrived, there were some human inhabitants of Britain but only a few thousand in number. These people were later subsumed into a larger Celtic tribe... The majority of people in the British Isles are actually descended from the Spanish."
Professor Sykes spent five years taking DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers in Britain and Ireland, in an effort to produce a map of our genetic roots.
Research on their "Y" chromosome, which subjects inherit from their fathers, revealed that all but a tiny percentage of the volunteers were originally descended from one of six clans who arrived in the UK in several waves of immigration prior to the Norman conquest.
The most common genetic fingerprint belongs to the Celtic clan, which Professor Sykes has called "Oisin". After that, the next most widespread originally belonged to tribes of Danish and Norse Vikings. Small numbers of today's Britons are also descended from north African, Middle Eastern and Roman clans.
These DNA "fingerprints" have enabled Professor Sykes to create the first genetic maps of the British Isles, which are analysed in Blood of the Isles, a book published this week. The maps show that Celts are most dominant in areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. But, contrary to popular myth, the Celtic clan is also strongly represented elsewhere in the British Isles.
"Although Celtic countries have previously thought of themselves as being genetically different from the English, this is emphatically not the case," Professor Sykes said.
"This is significant, because the idea of a separate Celtic race is deeply ingrained in our political structure, and has historically been very divisive. Culturally, the view of a separate race holds water. But from a genetic point of view, Britain is emphatically not a divided nation."
Origins of Britons
Oisin
Descended from Iberian fishermen who migrated to Britain between 4,000 and 5,000BC and now considered the UK's indigenous inhabitants.
Wodan
Second most common clan arrived from Denmark during Viking invasions in the 9th century.
Sigurd
Descended from Viking invaders who settled in the British Isles from AD 793. One of the most common clans in the Shetland Isles, and areas of north and west Scotland.
Eshu
The wave of Oisin immigration was joined by the Eshu clan, which has roots in Africa. Eshu descendants are primarily found in coastal areas.
Re
A second wave of arrivals which came from the Middle East. The Re were farmers who spread westwards across Europe.
Roman
Although the Romans ruled from AD 43 until 410, they left a tiny genetic footprint. For the first 200 years occupying forces were forbidden from marrying locally.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1621766.ece
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I heard this on the radio yesterday, fascinating subject, thanks for the link.
And the media think immigration is a modern idea!!!!!!!
Kerry
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The problem with this and similar theories is the presumption that the lands were empty before these people came along.
Archealogical evidence shows otherwise.
You also have the case that in many instances especially of so called invaders they were in comparatively few numbers and were often subsumed into the general population leaving only their genetic fingerprints behind.
I have read part of the book and it certainly paints a rather more complicated picture than the simplified version that the Independant does.
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I've also read quite a bit on this and, over the years, I've seen quite a few tele programmes about 'The Celts' - whoever they/we are ??? ??? ???
As Falkyrn says, it's a far more complex subject than is made out.
Gadget
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Back in the1960s, Bob Quinn, an Irish film producer, made a film about the origins of the Celts, his film had a similar theory, he recorded traditional music from the Gaetach areas, and played records of it to a tribe of Moors, they regognised the music, one of his thoughts was wether the "Morris Dancers", were originaly Moorish Dancers, as they have very similar performances. bodger
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An interesting topic...
One of my father's brothers, (who had grown up bi-lingual in Welsh and English) & who was very interested in languages generally, - always reckoned that there were strong similarities between Welsh & Catalan Spanish, - this would explain why.
Romilly.
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I've always considered that the Celts spread out from wherever (which could have been Iberia, although mostly in imagination thought - sort of Hungary) and all the most "undiluted" ended up on the west and north-west of Europe - Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, Ireland and Scotland.
Many people forget to include the Northern coast of the Iberian peninsula - Galicia, which definitely has Celtic traditions, and the Basque.
As far as I know the only early boats discovered here in Portugal have been of the hollowed out tree canoe type, and although they might have been sea-going, it's not an easy journey across the Bay of Biscay!
The "Moors" or Arabs of the North African migration didn't cross over to Europe until the early 8th Century, and had no great sea-going tradition.
As to the Morris/Moorish dancers, there is certainly one Portuguese folk troup that has a similar traditional form, but I reckon the Moors' arrival was too late for any basic genetic source.
The Phoenecians of 1st millenium BC (most traces of whom are on the coastal regions) were trading rather than colonising outside the Mediterranean, although they figure strongly in the ethnic origins of the people of Aveiro and Nazare of Portugal, they are not quite early enough.
Watermusic
P.S. When people say Spain and mean the Iberian peninsula, it always annoys me - Portugal was a country before Castille, Leon, Navarre and Aragon all merged by virtue of marriage into Spain (Ferdinand and Isabella). Incidently, whilst googling some references, I found that "Spain" means 'rabbit coast' in Phoenecian.
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I remember my Dad telling me last year that he had seen a TV programme that linked the Welsh to the Basques.
There was a write up on the BBc site
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm
Very interesting topic though and worth keeping an eye on for later info.
I don't think any of us will be lucky enough to trace back to them though unless they came over in the last 200 years or so
Might be interesting to do a DNA test, as Colin Jackson did in WDYTYA, just to see what the results would be
Carol
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Might be interesting to do a DNA test, as Colin Jackson did in WDYTYA, just to see what the results would be
Strangely the book comes with an offer of a dna test or at least a discounted one... but on checking the mentioned company's web site it appears to be a list of adverts amongst which are dna sites .... one promises
Match "Niall of the Nine Hostages" (Irish Ancestry)
• Match "The Romanovs" (Royal Lines)
• Match Thomas Jefferson" (Presential)
• Find out if you have Native American Ancestry
• Match Marie Antoinette
• Match Genghis Khan (Mongolian Ancestry)
• Match Cohanim (Jewish Ancestry)
while another lists similar categories to that seen in the list held by Colin Jackson ..... European appears to be the limit of their dissemination of the different "clans" identified in the book and article.
I become ever more sceptical of this branch of science and its uses - it does have a place but its uses to date do not inspire confidence.
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I thought that the Moorish --> Morris etymology was a long-established fact.
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Well from what I already understand, celts originated from mainland Europe in the France/Germany region.
Andrew
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That sounds very interesting, I may even fork out for a copy of the book.
About the Morris dancing/Moorish connection - about 6 months ago I came across this while doing some research for an article I was writing. I don't if it is established fact, but the evidence for it is very convincing. There are other theories about the origins of the Morris, but the Moorish one seems to have most evidence to back it up.
Kate
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I’m wondering if elements of Welsh, Cornish, Irish, and to a lesser extent Scottish society are amused by this revelation. I thought their links to the Basques, Catalans and folk from Brittany through physical similarities and a near common language were long established.
I’m sure the DNA analysis will be very interesting but I have a feeling that our black haired cousins won’t be too surprised by all this. After all, they have been celebrating their cultural ties for a long, long time.
Is someone selling a book or something?
M
ps: here is some information about the origin of Morris/Morrice
Moderator Comment: image cropped for easier reading
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From http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3moris.htm
English Morris dancing has a great and mixed history when compared to other dances. The name is derived from the Morisco (>môriskoz,) a dance peculiar to the >Moors and shows that the dance did have a Moorish beginning. The Morisco which it was often called was a Spanish name for a Moor or Moorish (Africa) or Spanish Muslim (Spain,) who after the country was re-conquered after the legendary Charlemagne and Tamer lane battle (Christian Re-conquest 11-15th. Century) remained there and became Christian (Moorish period.) The Moors who had become subjects of Christian kings as the re-conquest progressed to the fifteenth Centuries were called >Mudéjares.
-- The Morris dance (>Tripudium Mauritanicum) was the most frequently mentioned of all the dances of the fifteenth century. In Renaissance writings it is almost always mentioned that a >Mouresca, >Morisque or >Moresque (>Arab Lambra,) or Morisco was danced and was said to be brought to England from Spain by John of Gaunt (1340-1389) brother of Edward, 'the Black Prince' during the reign of his father, Edward III (1312-1377) around 1360 AD. In the beginning, the Morris dance was a pantomime of war, depicting the struggle of the Moors and Christianity and is one of the oldest English dances to date. However, it's origin is not considered strictly English, but the modern version is.
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I think that has been over edited. Try this one for completeness
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....sigh
IMAGE REMOVED - copyright_editor
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:D :D :D
I have always understood that the 'Celts' originally came from the region we now know as Southern Russia. I googled and found this link in a similar vein.
http://users.ev1.net/~gpmoran/mrn4.htm
8) 8) 8)
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Quote from Malmo:
"I thought their links to the Basques, Catalans and folk from Brittany through physical similarities and a near common language were long established"
There is no near common language to Basque - it is totally unique, and from a linguistic perspective, they are therefore not related to Celts or anyone else!
I assume everyone agrees/concedes that the q-Celts being the Irish, Scots and Manx, come from a distinct branch of Celts from the p-Celts, being the Welsh, Cornish and Breton. These represent two separate migration waves so, going back to the original article about links to the Iberians, this would appear to refer to the q-Celts.
Good to see the Morris --> Moorish link confirmed!
Cheers
Tim
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"....and was said to be brought to England from Spain by John of Gaunt (1340-1389)...."
Except John of Gaunt must have brought it back from Portugal - he was fighting against the Castilians, in an attempt to secure the Castilian throne for himself, as his second marriage was to a Castilian princess, who he considered the heiress.
The Portuguese were fighting the Castilians to secure their border.
Later his daughter Phillipa married King John I of Portugal.
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Well, here's a new one that I've just heard from my neice!
We both have a rare blood 'condition' - Factor V Leiden, a clotting factor which is of little consequnce except in pregnancy or long haul flights. It's pretty rare in this country but apparently there is a very high incidence amongst the Basque population :o :o :o
Gadget
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It is untrue that Welsh has any similarity to Basque - the languages could hardly be more different.
One theory of the Basques is that they were Etrurian fugitives from Roman oppression. That may just be a theory of conveneince since no writings in Etrurian have ever been found Rome vigorously suppressed Etrurian culture. Later Spain became mostly a Roman Province and the Basques may have fled again to the North of the country and spread into present-day France.
there are a great many similarities between Breton and Welsh including folk music and folklore.
Language gave quite a lot of words to French - such as buerre - Welsh barra - butter; ecole - Welsh ysgol - school; eglise - Welsh eglwys - church but many, many more. No even close similarity to these words exists in Basque as I understand it. Mind you I am not a Basque linguist.
Professors have some obligation to produce new work and bring funds into their universities. For a sufficient sum a Professor can be found to say that coffee is bad for with lots of proof, and another to say it is proven to be very good for you.
DNA theories are the latest science fiction - believe little about racial origins that you hear - they are mostly based on poor statistical method and fuelled by public willingness to be gulled. Only a couple of years ago they "proved" that everyone is descended from an "Eve" who lived in Tanganyika many years ago. Then that most of us descend from the Tartars, now from Iberian Celts, Basques etc etc. 8)
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8) 8) 8)
Until the 1700's, hardly anyone in Britain or Ireland thought of themselves, or their ancestors, as 'Celtic'. Ever since the period of the Roman Empire, 'Celtic' had referred only to the Ancient Gauls of France and related Continental peoples.
The concept that the Scots, Welsh, Irish and some other groups in the British Isles may be called 'Celtic' only evolved during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. So just how far this is a rediscovery of a forgotten past, or simply a modern invention, we will never really know.
8) 8) 8)
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Lots of truth in what Hackstaple says, but the Welsh for butter is "menyn" as far as I know?
I am speculating but isn't "barra brith" speckled bread"?
Edit: bara=bread
;)
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My slip is showing - I was thinking in 3 languages and thought of barra menyn. I believe the latest spelling is bara. :-[
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This is an interesting little article from the Web:
"But analysis of the language has revealed some certainties. Do not be confused by the loan words from neighboring languages because Euskara is nothing like Spanish or French because it remains the only non-Indo-European language in western Europe. It precedes these latter-day derivatives of Latin, the language of the Romans, by--at least--3,000 years. A form of Euskara or Basque, therefore, has been in western Europe longer than any other current language. That much is certain, but the question remains as to where it came from."
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Hi all,
I have read all the posts on this subject and can't understand why so many are surprised....when I was a boy my teacher told us that the Celts had come from Southern Spain.
By the way nobody has commented on the fact that Professor Sykes gave the name Oisin to one of the groups!
Oisín was the son of the hero Fionn Mac Cumhaill in Irish mythology......coincidence?
If Only
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Further to the Morris dancing angle....
As a member of a Border Morris side, I know there are several different "genres" of Morris dancing. e.g. clog dancing is radically different from the Border style using sticks.
Can anyone supply references to the source of evidence "proving" that Morris dancing is a form of dancing by historic Moorish peoples please?
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There was a program on RTE (Irish national channel) about two years ago about the origins of Irish people from the west of Ireland. As some of you may know around the Galway region there are some people who have very dark hair and are very Spanish looking in appearance. They did some DNA testing and found that people were related to people in the Basque country.
Also the Gaelic language and Gaeilge are so similar. My knowledge of Irish comes from my children`s homework and they are not great at it but even I can notice the similarities between them it is incredible.
Very interesting.
Sarah
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Also the Gaelic language and Gaeilge are so similar.
What do you mean? Gaeilge is the Irish form of Gaelic, and as such is closely related to Scottish and Manx Gaelic - nothing to do with Basque.
These three languages form the Goidelic branch of the Celtic family tree. The other, Brythonic, branch includes Welsh, Breton and Cornish but again, is nothing to do with Basque.
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Surely archaeological evidence makes plain that the Celts came from central Europe/southern Russia and spread into western Europe in early historic times. Any link between the Iberian peninsula and the Celts of Britain is surely a product if the respective tribes moving west into those regions. The names speak for themselves (remember G=W) Gaul, Galicia, Wales, CornWALL. By the way, what happened to the Angles Saxons and Jutes in the Professor's list of oriigns of the British race?
Steve
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Surely archaeological evidence makes plain that the Celts came from central Europe/southern Russia and spread into western Europe in early historic times. Any link between the Iberian peninsula and the Celts of Britain is surely a product if the respective tribes moving west into those regions.
Yes, that's right.
Although, the extent to which there really was a spread of "Celtic people" across Europe is now being questioned. There was certainly a spread of the Celtic languages, and Celtic culture, but some historians now suggest that this didn't imply mass movement and displacement of people. It could be analogous to the Norman conquest of England and Wales - ie the elite at the top changed, but the mass of peasantry pretty much stayed where they were.
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A form of Euskara or Basque, therefore, has been in western Europe longer than any other current language. That much is certain, but the question remains as to where it came from.
The best guess (in the absence of hard proof) is that it originated there, and is the last survivor of what were probably hundreds of indigenous European languages. All the others were gradually replaced by the spread of the Indo-European languages (Latin and its derivatives, the Celtic group, the Germanic languages, Slavic etc).
In its roots, it is totally unrelated to any other language. Of course, over the years, loan words have gone back and forwards between it and its neighbouring languages, such as the Spanish "izquierda" for left, but that doesn't alter the fact of its uniqueness.
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I am often amused, sometimes annoyed, by discussions of ancestral homelands. In every case it can only relate to a particular, often relatively short, period of history (or prehistory).
There seems little room for doubt that we all originated in Africa and various groups took different migratory routes to populate the rest of the World, probably during the last 60,000 years. If that is the case no group can truly lay claim to any particular area as their ancestral home, other than for a given period of time.
Since the last Ice Age it seems likely that there was re-population northwards along the western side of the British Isles from the Iberian peninsula, meaning most of these people shared a common ancestry, but whether they were Celts is open to question. As many others have said, the term is probably a recent invention drawing on a romantic interpretation of history.
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There was a program on RTE (Irish national channel) about two years ago about the origins of Irish people from the west of Ireland. As some of you may know around the Galway region there are some people who have very dark hair and are very Spanish looking in appearance. They did some DNA testing and found that people were related to people in the Basque country.
Also the Gaelic language and Gaeilge are so similar. My knowledge of Irish comes from my children`s homework and they are not great at it but even I can notice the similarities between them it is incredible.
Very interesting.
Sarah
I don't think this program was claiming the celts came from the Basque region just that the first people to land in Ireland were from the Basque region.
The Celts were later.
The DNa results across the country basically match the various 'invasions' through history as each new group pushed the previous one west, so the remaining Badque DNA is mainly in the west and for years was thought to be from the Spanish Armada survivors.