RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: ros on Monday 18 September 06 17:54 BST (UK)
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can anyone point me in the right direction for tracing relatives that were known as gypsy hawkers/travellers
i have a possible link to the family in the 1901 census of wales but despite birth places listed on this i canot find them on previous census.
ialso have been told that the family name was changed around the 1890's which makes it more difficult
can anyone advise the best place to look for them , i canot seem to get hold of a copy of a birth certificate for my grandfather, i have tried several times to order online but just get a message back to say it cant be traced , i have very little to go on.
any advise on where to start or look would be appreciated
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Hi ros :)
What are the names you are looking for? We'll have a scout round for them...... (the GRO once said they couldn't find a certificate I ordered cos I'd written Osborn instead of Osborne, so a simple mispelling could account for them not being able to find it, although if you have the actual GRO reference I dont know how they cant find it!)
Regards
Catherine
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hi catone , yes i did have the reference numbers and everything but they still camr back and said they couldn't find it but charged me for a search anyway ?
right here goes this is what i have :
my grandfather edward walter gale b 1906 hereford (i was told )
his father on his marriage cert in 1952 listed as ernest gale deceased
i have been told that ernest wife was called elizabeth
supposidly the family name was originally "heath" and changed around 1891 to gale after walter gambled and lost everything the family owned
someone in thias site found me on the 1901 census walter gale age 40 born southampton occ pedlar
alice gale 48 born leeds
ernest gale 14 born cheltenham
still not certain whether these are mine or not
on the census they were living in an area in which there were several pedalr / hawker families in canton glamorgan s/wales , when i mention the "canton" bit to a cousin of mine he says he can remember his father saying the family were living in canton for a while
i really am at a loss as to where to go i think i have read every site possible on here and via google
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I see what you mean about them being difficult to find! ::)
Have you traced the death of Edward Walter Gale? May give his dob or at least a more certain idea of his year of birth.....
Did you get the GRO reference for his birth from a transcription or the actual image? If the certificate cant be found at the reference you gave, they usually search a year either side, then if they still cant find it, they refund the £7 cert. charge.
Cant even find the family you have in 1901, on the 1891 census! ??? Will let you know if I find anything though
Good Luck
Catherine :)
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Dont know if this might be him??
87 Manor St, Clapham London 1891
Emily Heath, Head, wid 60 bn Poole Dorsetshire
Walter Heath, son, single, 32 Ironmonger bn Southampton Hants
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I took a look at the 1901 cr of Glamorgan.
Listed on the same page are several other travelling families.
He is lodging with William Foot 39 Pedlar Sherborne Dorset
and his wife Mary 35 also a Pedlar
Herbert Knowles also a Pedlar bn Norwich
Alfred Cross also a pedlar Durham
A couple of doors away is
Samuel Bannell 21 travelling gipsy Dudley
Charlotte Bannell 22 wife Selby Yks
Samuel Bannell 3 son ? Glamorgan, Wales
Now I wouldnt mind betting that Bannell should be - Boswell.
Travelling families often travelled or lodged with/near in-laws. If I were you Id start checking out these people as well, as it may just be that it will lead to more info.
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There's no birth for Edward Walter Gale in 1906 on the complete GRO images at http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx .
How old is he on his marriage cert?
Rambler
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thank you for all your replies
edward walter gale (grandfather0 was born 1906 hereford ive been told, married galdys evelyn clark in bath somerset1936, on the wedding cert he was listed as age 30years
date of death14/2/1952 in bath somerset
brother william john gale b 1912 ? hereford died 2004 bath somerset / avon
sister elizabeth susan gale b 1910c ? hereford married james john selway 1930 in bath
grandfather; ernest gale on edwards wedding cert of 1936 as deceased
there are no certificates in tha family as all paperwork was destroyed by another relative !!!
i managed to get a copy of edward walter and galdys wedding cert via the bath registry office , using what little details id been given from my mother
i have been told that edward walter had either an uncle or cousin called edward heath who had a daughter called susan , they changed their name and emigrated to america he was a band leader she was an actress
elizabeth susan , william john and edward walter gale all settled in the bath somerset area
apart from these details eerything that ive put in the other messages is only what ive been told re name cahnge but every surviving member of the family all say the family name was "heath" up untill approx 1890
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Death - Edward W Gale March 1852 Bath Vol 7c Page 41 age 45
so yob - c.1907, dont know if death certificates from this date would record his precise dob? maybe someone else knows.....
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From England & Wales Death Index: 1984-2004:
William John Gale b. 26 Apr 1912 d. Dec 2003 Bath & North East Somerset registration district.
From GRO index images:
William John Gale b. Jun Q 1912, Taunton Registration district - ref. Taunton 5c 504 - mother's maiden name MOSS.
Rambler
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thank you , oh my god im even more confused now !! does that mean william john was born in taunton somerset? not hereford as we thought? ???
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why two birth dates one april and one june is this 2 different people?
bit confused sorry to be so dumb
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just checked with mother and she says as far as she was told william and edward walter were born hereford
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the one in april seems more likley does it state where born ?
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It's the same person: the 2004 death entry gives his exact date of birth (but not the place), while the birth registration just gives the quarter (Apr-May-Jun) and the registration district in which he was born.
The birth registration in Taunton district is the only one which matches the name and date of birth given on the death registration.
Let me do some more digging.... 8)
Rambler
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Possible marriage?? not the right area, but if they were travellers......
Ernest Gale March 1905 Chesterfield Vol 7b Page 871
Brides - Lily Moss or Ann Jennings
and John J Selway's marriage -
March 1930 Bath Vol 5c Page 933 Spouses surname - Gale
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Could Edward have been registered in a name other than Edward?
ie;
Ernest Walter E Gale June 1907 Vol 2c Page 167 Petersfield (Hampshire)
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hi catone
with reference to the possible marriage ernest gale
brides lily moss or ann jennings
going back to what what manchester rambler had put on his post reagrding william john gale son of ernest, on the death registration the mothers maiden name was moss !!!!
so can we asume that the mariage you listed was to lily moss ?in 1905 chesterfield
i suppose it could be possible grandfather edward walter gale was christened ernest edward walter although as far as my mother is concerned he was always edward walter and on his marriage cert he is edward walter ?and that is how he signed the certificate as well ? but id william john was born in taunton somerset i suppose it is possible edward walter was born elsewhere despite my mohter inisting he was born hereford
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Unfortunately I cant tell for sure which bride Ernest Gale married in 1905, I just posted that info because of the previous post stating mothers maiden name as Moss, 50-50 chance without sending away for the actual certificate, probably the best bet is to get the birth cert. Rambler found to confirm fathers name, occupation etc....... its a pity all the relevant certs were destroyed by another relative, looks like you'll be needing to fork out for at least some of them again to get any further.....or wait until the 1911 census is released ::)
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thanks catone
i think i may apply for the certificate of william john as at least i am fairly certian of the dates for him
when does the 1911 come out ?
thanks again for all your help
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If the family moved to Hereford when the children were very young, they may just have presumed that's where they were born! (And my own father told me his grandfather was born in Carrickfergus - turned out it was his grandmother.... ::))
If funds allow, I would recommend buying William John Gale's birth cert, as it's the only one which seems to fit definite known facts at the moment. It's possible to state that you only want the certificate if the father's name is Ernest - it may be worth telephoning the Taunton office before you order. All being well, we will then have a definite first name for the mother, and can work from there. (And if it's Lily, we'll all be happy!)
Rambler
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manchester rambler
i will ecstatic if it is moss this has been an ongoing project for over 3 years and im no nearer now than i was in the begining ha ha
thanks again for all your help will follow it up
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hi manchester rambler i know its been a while since my last post
just to let you know i did get the birth cert for william john gale and the mothers name is moss do you wered right
thanks again
i just have to try and finf edward walter my grandfather now
any suggestions / mother still says he was born hereford but she said that about william and that was wrong
is there anywhere i could look for a birth using the mother maiden name of "moss"?
edward walter born 1906
died 26/12/1936 in bath somerset
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Unfortunately the GRO birth index doesn't show mother's maiden name until 1911 (although some of the local online BMD indexes like Bath BMD are starting to include it for all dates).
You could check out the birth reg for Ernest Walter E GALE which Catone found - say you only want the cert if the parents are the same as for William John. (Presumably Ernest Gale and Lily Moss?) We haven't found anything else which looks possible so far... ???
Then the next step is to get the marriage cert for Ernest and Lily, which will give their ages and their fathers' names/occupations - with that info we can start looking for them on censuses!
Rambler
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thanks manchester rambler
i have had another look at the cert and it has got me even more confused (not difficult ???)
father of william john gale listed as ernest gale hawker correct mother listed as alice gale formaly moss
when ive gone over previous postings the marriage of ernest gle was to a lilly moss ? have i got the worng person as in the 1901 census ernest's father was married to a alice
and according to my information ernest was married to an elizabeth someone ?
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I don't think it's a problem - Catone found a possible Gale-Moss marriage, but if Miss Moss' first name was Alice, we now know it can't be the right one, so we'll have to look again.
Maybe this is a good moment to summarise what we know for sure:
Edward Walter GALE (your grandfather) b. c1906 - family says Hereford.
Elizabeth Susan GALE (EW's sister) b. c1910.
William John GALE (EW's brother) b. 26 Apr 1912, Taunton district; d. 1912.
Their parents: Ernest GALE (hawker) and Alice MOSS.
Ernest might be the 14 yr-old b. Cheltenham, son of Walter and Alice, on the 1901 census. If so, he must have married young, but the family are hawkers, which fits. (We really need Ernest and Alice's marriage cert to confirm this.)
You have been told the family name was changed from HEATH to GALE c1890.
I'll have another look at GALE births/marriages this evening when I have a little more time.... ::)
Rambler 8)
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details correct as far as i know its just the confusing ernest marriage , ive been told was an elizabeth ( this is not definate 0
and the quiery on the birth places of edward walter b 1906 and william john 1912 and elizabeth susan b c 1910 , mother still says she was told they were born hereford ?
thanks manchester rambler for your help
ros
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HI ME AGAIN
IVE JUST TRAWLED THROUGH THE MARRIAGE INDEXES AND NO MATTER WHAT I PUT ION FOR ERNEST GALE MARRIAGE IT KEEPS COMMING BACK A MARRIAGE TO LILY MOSS IST QUARTER 1905 CHESTERFIELD DERBYSHIRE
EVEN IF I OUT IN ALICE IT STILL COMES BACK LILY ?
WHAT DOES THIS TELL YOU? IS IT ONE OF THE SAME PERSON ?
IM SURE I DONT KNOW
LILY CAN B SHORT FOR ELIZABETH I SUPPOSE ?
STILL CAN ONLY FIND A BIRTH FOR MYGRANDFATHER POSSIBILITY EDWARD GALE REGISTERED CARDIFF 1906 2ND QUARTER IS THIS ANYWHERE NEAR HEREFORD/ HEREFORDSHIRE , I BELIEVE THAT WAS CLASSED AS GLAMORGAN SOUTH WALES ?? WHICH WOULD TIE IN WITH THE CANTON CONNECTION IN THE 1901 CENSUS OF WALTER ALICE AND ERNEST ? NOW IM TOTALY CONFUSSED
WHY IS IT SOOO DIFFICULT TO FIND THESE BLASTED PEOPLE !!
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FreeBMD has practically complete coverage of births and marriages around this time - the marriage with Lily Moss on the same page as Ernest Gale is the only one whch shows up, but normally the name in the index should be identical with the one on the cert.... ???
Of course, it's possible that they didn't marry until later - or maybe not at all - and just fibbed on WJ's birth registration. That would make things more complicated!
Cardiff isn't exactly next door to Hereford - the registration district covers principally places in Glamorgan, plus a few in Monmouthshire.
According to his marriage and death certs, Edward Walter was born 1906/07, although we should probably consider a year or two on each side as well. No EW shows up, so was he registered as plain Edward, and then added a middle name later? (Perhaps when he was christened.) In that case the Cardiff birth you found is certainly a possibility.
And this birth might be EW's sister:
Births Mar 1908
GALE Elizabeth Susannah
Cardiff 11a 461
It's the only possibility I've found so far - and it's also in Cardiff....
Rambler
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yes i found that elizabeth sussanah as well , i have applied for the certificate for the edward gale cardiff and put down the father as ernest and mother as just moss surname ive done it online via ancestry .co.uk i will see what that throws back
if you find out any more please let me know
im very grateful for your help
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Just discovered a lot of people are wasting their time here as there is a duplicate thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=189727.new#new
Moderator - perhaps you could lock one?
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lizdb sorry i dont understandthat last msge about wasting time im not wasting anyones time just asking for advice and help?
i have posted on the travellers site before regarding this thread , is that wrong ?
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For example, Carol spent her time finding Elizabeth Susan's birth on the other thread, and Manchester Rambler had already spent his (her?) time finding exactly the same info on this thread.
Same goes for all the other info!
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well im very sorry for asking for help the idea was to try a different part of the site rather than the travellers to see if anyone else could help! i dont feel it has been wasted as youve all been very helpfull to me and im very grateful
im sorry if you feel youve wasted your time but not everyone is experienced in doing research and has to start somewhere
it certainly wasnt my intention to abuse the site in anyway , as i said people have been very helpfull to me on here , its a fantastic site and i am very very grateful to everyone that has helped
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As a general rule:
there is no problems about posting again on a different thread,
but please include a link to the other thread(s), to avoid duplication.
The moderators do this when we notice, but there are a lot of topics,
so if you can help us (and yourselves) in this respect, this would be great.
If you can say "I've found X on this topic (with link) but was wondering about finding (other information)." or something similar, that would save a lot of duplication, and people can concentrate on the "missing bits"
Thanks
The RootsChat Team