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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: AgnesR.S K on Sunday 17 September 06 14:32 BST (UK)
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My ancester put 2 children into fostercare in 1866 and 1888, how do I find paperwork on the cases to find out why they were placed and where????
Ant advice is welcome.
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It depends what you mean by foster care.
Where they placed in a children's home like Dr. Barnardoes? In which case the paperwork where it survives will be with that society or possibly with a local record office for other childrens' homes that no longer survive (though neither might the paperwork).
If they went into the poor law system (the equivalent of C19th council care) then what paperwork survives will be with the local county record office. That would be information like workhouse admission registers and then probably a local children's home admissions book.
There would be a lot less information from the poor law system than you would find with a society like Barnardoes but still worth following up.
If it was a private arrangement then there would be nothing surviving.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Thanks for the reply. All I discovered is that the said child was listed as 'foster son' on the census records. Maybe it was a private arrangement, I just don't know how to go about finding out what the circumstances were at that time.
Agnes
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If you give more details about the two foster children perhaps it might be possible to advise you further on what records might be worth searching in hope of finding more information.
Regards
Valda
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I don't have much info to go on...The first child is on the census record 1871 with his birth name listed as foster son of Mr and Mrs Guest who were living in Staffordshire, quite close to the boys' natural grandparents which adds more mystery. Why didn't they take him in if the mother couldn't take care of him. 20yrs later the same woman put her daughter into care for a while...that is what a living relative has told me but they don't know any details.
Is there any hope of finding out ? Her son died aged 20 and her daughter was born that same year.( 1908) Social services for that area...Sandwell council said there are no records from that time. Is it time to give up my search???
Agnes
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Agnes
Sandwell council didn't exist in 1908. It was formed only in 1974. Today Sandwell is made up of Oldbury, Rowley Regis, Smethwick, Tipton, Wednesbury and West Bromwich. In 1908 all these towns were in Staffordshire or possibly Worcestershire. Have you contacted Staffordshire Record Office or Lichfield Record Office?
http://www.staffordshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/
In 1908 there was no council social services only poor law unions. At least some of the towns now in Sandwell were in Dudley poor law union.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/Dudley/Dudley.shtml
Workhouse records held by Dudley archives and possibly any other poor law records (this concerns children who came into poor law care) for those towns in Dudley union.
http://www.dudley.gov.uk/leisure-and-culture/local-history--heritage/archive-and-local-history
The other towns were in West Bromwich poor law union
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/WestBromwich/WestBromwich.shtml
Any surviving poor law records are probably with Staffordshire archives.
The poor law unions were the equivalent of council care today. Their records are likely to have been handed over to record offices before Sandwell council came into existence. I doubt people working for Sandwell social services today have much historically knowledge of poor law unions, which legally ceased to exist in 1930, but in reality finally gave up the remainder of their power with the formation of the Welfare State in 1947.
I can't comment on the 1871 census child because all the information you give is for a foster child only somewhere in Staffordshire. I checked the 1871 census index for foster children in Staffordshire and none came up living with a family called Guest, so I don't I'm afraid know which area of Staffordshire he was living in or where he was born - necessary knowledge for where records concerning him might be held today.
Your figures don't seem to add up - the foster son died aged 20 in 1908 but was on the 1871 census?
Regards
Valda
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Hi Agnes
As an ex- Dr Barnardo Child and having only requested my own records of being in care in 2004 I can say that any information required from the time period you state would be scant or none exist.
I was told that the organization never thought that people would have access to them in later years and many of my own pages finish without the following page as it was not mirco-filmed. :( :( :(
You may find mention of them in the Workhouse minutes books if any survive.
Best of luck.
Sandy
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Hi again Agnes
This web link may help you on the history of Dr Thomas Barnardo
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/who_we_are/history.htm
His 1st home was started in 1870 for Boys.
Here is copy of my cross-stitch of him which the After Care Staff kindly have hanging
in the Visitor Office for Old Boys and Girls at Barkingside.
Sandy
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Thanks for the replies. I did write the wrong date...sorry! The boys name was Charles Oliver Booker born in 1888 he was on the 1891 census as a foster son of Hannah and Albert Guest. (Warley, Worcester) The boys' real father, Christopher Oliver Booker, seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth after his marriage to Agnes R. S.Keene, the boys mum, in that same year 1888. Agnes went on to re-marry in 1908 and had a girl...winifred agnes Johnson. This child was 'in care' for a while, don't know where or when but was living in Chorlton upon Medlock . Census info is not yet available. I do know that mother and daughter were living together in later years and Agnes did get her daughter back.(living relatives told me this!)
Agnes
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On the 1891 census Charles Booker was an 'adopted child' in the Guests household in Oldbury. In 1901 he was a 'foster son' with the family in Warley. On the earlier census his birthplace was given as Oldbury Worcestershire, on the latter census Langley Green Worcestershire.
Chorlton upon Medlock poor law union records would be in Manchester Archives.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/Chorlton/Chorlton.shtml
Records from poor law unions and various children's homes vary in depth, survival rate and quality. From other people I have been led to believe that Barnardos nineteenth century and early twentieth century records are worth accessing, but of course you need to be a direct descendant of the child concerned.
Regards
Valda
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Records from poor law unions and various children's homes vary in
depth, survival rate and quality. From other people I have been led to believe
that Barnardos nineteenth century and early twentieth century records are worth accessing, but of course you need to be a direct descendant of the child
concerned.
Valda I couldn't agree with you more on the 1st comment.
My records from another source were very detailed.
Also my own Record Office had some information about me too.
Even though my siblings were in Barnardos and are mentioned on my papers
(under the Data Protection Act it has been blanked out where they are noted)
I am not en-titled to know what has been written about them.
Sandy
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I am trying to find the circumstances of the fostering/adoption. Which was it? Maybe the mother withdrew the adoption consent but allowed fostering. As you see Charles did not change his name which leads me to think he was not adopted. Because the mother retrieved her 2nd child from care I wonder if she intended the same for her son but was not able to for some reason? I had not found Charles as the adopted son so thanks for that info.
I am a direct descendant of the daughter but am curious as to what happened to the husband and why the boy could not be cared for by his grandparents who also lived in Oldbury and were young and healthy.
Thanks for your input.
Agnes
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Charles Booker was born in Oldbury. His parents were living in Langley Road, Oldbury when he was born.
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Legal Adoption did not come into law until 1927. Prior to that the term was used loosely to cover fostering and guardianship.
Thus there didn't exist any situation where the child was refused for adoption.
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What are Charles Oliver Booker's details? When and where was he born?
Regards
Valda
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Charles Oliver Booker was born in Oldbury, Worcester, West Bromwich registration district. 13th April 1888. Parents were Agnes and Christopher Booker, married January 1888. I have traced Agnes's whereabouts through to her death but no trace of Christopher after the marriage.His family were a farming family in Norbury, later moving to Cannock, Staffordshire. The son died of 'natural causes' heart disease but I am unable to get an inquest record or find his father's whereabouts.
Agnes
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On the 1871 census Christopher Booker born circa 1863 Norbury was with his parents Joseph and Ann Booker in Wilbrighton Shropshire. His father Joseph was a farmer of 374 acres employing 9 labourers and 4 boys.
On the 1881 census the family were in Cannock where Christopher's father was an agent.
On the 1891 census Agnes R S Booker was married and living with her parents in Oldbury but without her husband.
On the 1901 census she was a servant in Manchester a widow, but living under her maiden name of Keene.
It is very unusual for a widow at this time to revert to her maiden name. Women who did this were more likely to have been divorced or judicially separated from their husbands.
CHRISTOPHER OSWIN BOOKER
Christening: 20 MAR 1863 Norbury, Stafford,
Father: JOSEPH BOOKER
Mother: ANN
Marriages Mar 1888
BOOKER Christopher Oliver W. Bromwich 6b 866
KEENE Agnes Rebecca S West Bromwich 6b 866
Marriages Jun 1905
BOOKER Christopher Oswin King's N. 6c 876
either
Allen Agnes King's N. 6c 876
or
Lyon Alberta Constance King's N. 6c 876
Marriages Mar 1908
BOOKER Agnes Chorlton 8c 1261
either
JOHNSON George Thomas Chorlton 8c 1261
or
PERRIN Frank Adrian Chorlton 8c 1261
Do you know what status Agnes gave on her second marriage - widowed or divorced?
Regards
Valda
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Valda, you're good!!
Christopher Booker is written as Christopher Oliver on the certificates I have but maybe that was a choice he made to change his middle name. The second marriage certificate reads Agnes is a widow, I also thought it strange she reverted to her maiden name. When her second husband died in 1917 she kept his name until her death in 1950. She didn't have much luck with husbands!
I have the birth record of the second child but the census for 1911 is not available,is it? My guess is she was fostered out as a young baby and later Agnes got her back. She remained in service as far as I know.
Thanks for your help
Agnes
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Divorce was largely out of the financial reach of most people until after the First World War and legal aid.
Therefore when a marriage failed the choices were
Continue on as a married couple
Separate and live singularly
Separate and live as a married couple with someone else.
Separate and marry bigamously (ususally done away from where you were previously known).
The latter option happened. It wasn't rare and it wasn't common.
I think it likely in this case both Christopher and Agnes bigamously remarried.
If you check through the GRO death register quarters sooner or later you should find Christopher's death registration.
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx
If yo can place when Christopher died you can check whether he left a will.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/wills.htm
The 1911 census will be released on 1st January 2012.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Agnes
I would love to chat to you about Christopher Oswin Booker. I know something about his second marriage and his subsequent children from that, and his early death. Some of this is quite sensitive so would need to be in a private message. I would love to hear from you about this.
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I would like to discuss Christopher Oswin Booker and his children but as some of the issues are sensitive would prefer to talk via a private message.
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat
The personal messaging system is available to all Rootschatters after they have made three posts on Rootschat.
Regards
Valda
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Dear Kingsgate I am interested in finding the burial place for Zena Symons/Stretton-Hill/Booker, and also information on her children.
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I have sent you a PM on this. Look forward to hearing from you.
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Hi there,
I have been researching the Agnes Keene and Christopher Booker situation too and have some new information for anyone interested.
Agnes was born as Agnes Rebecca Sophia Keene. She married twice, had 1 child from each marriage. However, Agnes did not just have two children, she in fact had three.
As you say, Charles Oliver Booker b.1888 and Winnifred Agnes b.1908, but she had another in 1897. This child was called Amy Laura Keene, born 9 Oct 1897 and she was illegitimate. Her birth certificate says her mother was a domestic servant and her name was Agnes (no middle names). I had to do further research to confirm that Agnes R S Keene was in fact her mother. In the 1901 Census, Amy is a visitor to a family in the Chorlton area. I then searched for any other Keene's in Chorlton in 1901 and Agnes R S Keene was the only other person. I did some further research on roads and dates etc which simply confirmed that they were mother and daughter.
But what I found most interesting was how Amy ended up in a similar situation as her half siblings. In the 1911 Census, Amy is an inmate in one of Dr J M Rhodes Memorial Homes on Canvendish Road.
Apparently, Amy was put into the home because of her father/step-father.
In the 1911 Census, Agnes is living in 4 Thomson Grove, Chorlton, and she is an office cleaner. Her marital status is 'married' and her daughter is living with her. They are also 'boarders' so were not intending to live there for much longer. However, although this may fit into what others have found, the original image says there have been two children born to the marriage and two are still living. This is a complete mystery to me...
I have complete access to the 1911 Census, so if anyone wants details of Christopher's family, then just ask.
I am mostly interested in Agnes and what happened to her and would like to hear from anyone tracing the same line.
Lucy
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Hi Lucy
Thank you for your kind offer. I would love to have details of both Christopher's family and that of Agnes.
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I can e-mail you details from the 1911 Census of Christopher and Agnes' family if you would send me a PM with your e-mail address.
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Hi Lucy
I would love to, but this website doesn't let you send a PM to anyone until they have had 3 posts (as far as I am aware) and so please could you post a 3rd one - ie a reply to this - , then I will be able to send a PM to you. Looking forward to chatting more.
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Ok, this is my short reply, looking forward to hearing from you.
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Hi Lucy,
Hope you're still interested in Agnes...she is my great grandma and I have been researching her family situation for many years.
I only just found out about Amy Laura Keene. Sad that the 2 sisters didn't know each other as adults.
Please let me know if you are still doing your searching.
Debz
Hi there,
I have been researching the Agnes Keene and Christopher Booker situation too and have some new information for anyone interested.
Agnes was born as Agnes Rebecca Sophia Keene. She married twice, had 1 child from each marriage. However, Agnes did not just have two children, she in fact had three.
As you say, Charles Oliver Booker b.1888 and Winnifred Agnes b.1908, but she had another in 1897. This child was called Amy Laura Keene, born 9 Oct 1897 and she was illegitimate. Her birth certificate says her mother was a domestic servant and her name was Agnes (no middle names). I had to do further research to confirm that Agnes R S Keene was in fact her mother. In the 1901 Census, Amy is a visitor to a family in the Chorlton area. I then searched for any other Keene's in Chorlton in 1901 and Agnes R S Keene was the only other person. I did some further research on roads and dates etc which simply confirmed that they were mother and daughter.
But what I found most interesting was how Amy ended up in a similar situation as her half siblings. In the 1911 Census, Amy is an inmate in one of Dr J M Rhodes Memorial Homes on Canvendish Road.
Apparently, Amy was put into the home because of her father/step-father.
In the 1911 Census, Agnes is living in 4 Thomson Grove, Chorlton, and she is an office cleaner. Her marital status is 'married' and her daughter is living with her. They are also 'boarders' so were not intending to live there for much longer. However, although this may fit into what others have found, the original image says there have been two children born to the marriage and two are still living. This is a complete mystery to me...
I have complete access to the 1911 Census, so if anyone wants details of Christopher's family, then just ask.
I am mostly interested in Agnes and what happened to her and would like to hear from anyone tracing the same line.
Lucy
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Hi there,
Do you or anyone reading this know how I can find archived records of ancestors in the Dr. J.M Rhodes memorial home and if this place still exists. Even if it doesn't there should be some records, somewhere???
I'm trying to locate any documentation regarding Amy Keene's removal from her parents...dates and reasons.
I know we can guess but I like to see proof.
Thanks
Debra
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Hi Debra
Was the home in Manchester?
If so then a quick search gives this information (found at http://www.manchester-family-history-research.co.uk/new_page_5.htm)
"PLEASE NOTE that besides the material available in Manchester Archives, there are also some very useful gems of information in the Local Studies stacks. Abstracts of Accounts (Ref 339M7) are helpful for finding details of staff. From the 1890's they give details of people working at Crumpsall Workhouse, New Bridge Street Workhouse and the Swinton Industrial Schools. The 20th Century accounts are more detailed, all employees are named and details of pay, addresses, length of service etc are given. There are even details of some former employees. The last volume (1915-1930) gives these details for all the Manchester Union and includes such places as Withington Hospital, Delaunay's Hospital, the Langho Colony, Styal Cottage Homes, Rose Hill School and the Dr Rhodes Memorial Home."
May be worth a look, and worth contacting both the Local Studies library in Manchester, and the Manchester website at http://www.manchester.gov.uk.
This is certainly an interesting branch to research - all best in your search. Do keep us posted how it goes.
Regards, Kingsgate.