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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: coco-cool on Saturday 16 September 06 12:57 BST (UK)
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Hello there
My great-grandmother, Mary Ellen Howard (formaly Malone) died at Crumpsall Hospital on May 29th 1890. She was buried in St-Joseph RC Cemetery. She was catholic.Where could I find the parish record of her funerals and burial? It would give me more details on her family; I know her father's name is William Malone, but I don't know her mother's name. etc Her brother is Joseph Malone.
I visited England and St-Joseph Cemetery one month ago and saw her tombstone.
Can you help me please?
regards
jacques, Province of Quebec, Canada
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Hi, Coco
A lot of the Catholic parish records have been transferred to the Lancashire Records Office, you could write to them at
Lancashire Records Office
Bow Lane
Preston
PR1 2RE
or you could try the local Catholic Church
St Dunstan
Moston Lane
Moston
Manchester
I presume you have tried the office at the cemetery
There is a parish map of the cemetery at
www.datafind.co.uk/sites/salford/map.htm
If you could give the information you have on your Great Gran. we may be able to back track her family
Hope this helps in some way
Good Luck
Regards, Dave
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Hello Dave
Thanks a lot for your informations!! They will help me a lot. Thanks also for the map of the cemetery. I'll write to those parishes! Take care!!
Regards
Jacques
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Hello Dave
You asked for the details I have on my g-gran that could help trace back her family. So this is what I found.
Mary Ellen Malone was married to James Howard on December 23rd 1882 in the RC church of St-Edmund, Newton, in the district of Prestwich; she was 30 years old and James 40. It was his second marriage. James was living at 23 Chester street, Newton and Mary Ellen at 96 Pearson St in Manchester; she is the daughter of William Malone, shoemaker. James was the son of John Howard, warper.
Mary Ellen had a daughter, Mary Howard (my grandmother) on October 9th 1884; she was born at 47 Dyson Street, Newton, in the district of Prestwich.
When James Howard committed suicide in January 1890, at home, they were living at 6 Sherwood Street, Newton.
Four months later, Mary Ellen Malone-Howard died at Crumpsall hospital, on May 29th 1890 , from acute pneumonia. She was living on Newburgh Street, Manchester, at her brother Joseph's home. She was buried in St-Jospeh RC Cemetery.
These are all the details I have on Mary Ellen Malone, my g-gran. I could not find her parent's marriage, nor her own birth certificate. I found in the 1881 Census, in Manchester, a Jane Malone, widow, 53, living with her son Joseph Malone ,21, living at 125 Butterworth Bdgs. I don't know if they are her mon and brother. It was the year before Mary Ellen Malone's marriage to James Howard... If they were her family, why was she not living with them?
I know that James had six other children from his first marriage to Mary Winstanley;I know their names and the names of the 6 children of the eldest Charles Howard (who are nieces and nephews of my grandmother, and cousins of my Mom!)), but I don't know how to find relatives living today. I'll try to go back to Manchester in January to do more research. I would like so much to tell them how my grandmother was lucky with her adoptive family in Quebec, I would like to share her story with them and know more about the Howard, Winstanley and Malone families.
Here you are Dave! I hope it can help you and help me trace back Mary Ellen Malone's family! and maybe their relatives living today!!
thank you so much for your help.
regards
jacques
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Hello Jacques,
perhaps this may shed a bit more light on this - I am assuming you haven't got this!
1891 census: RG12; Piece: 3263; Folio 82; Page 26
153 Hendham Vale Cheetham - looks like Hendham anyway
Henry Malone head widowed 64 yrs b Ireland
John son 44 yrs labourer b Manchester
Joseph son 26 yrs sewing machine agent (think it is) b Manchester
Mary Summersgill grandaughter 10 yrs b Manchester
May Howard grandaughter 6 yrs b Manchester
Ettie Howard granddaughter 3 yrs b Manchester
It looks like May but presumably is Mary your grandmother.
A puzzle re Henry/ William
will try to find more
best wishes
heywood
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Hello there!!
You made my day!! I think this is the right family!! Mary Howard was my grandmother, and in 1891, I supposed that she was with her mother's family, the Malone since her mother had died in May 1890. If it is the right family, it means that James and Mary Ellen had another daughter after Mary ( my grandmother). I will have to check that... I wonder why she was sent to Canada in 1893 for adoption... and was her sister Ettie also sent to Canada? Do you know at what time of the year was the 1891 census? You are opening a new field of investigation for me!!
I wonder why Henry instead of William though..... Let's keep searching...
Thanks a lot!! I'll keep in touch
regards
jacques
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Now - this is the point where things become clearer or more complex!!
1881: RG11; Piece: 4003; Folio: 53; Page: 14
living at 96 Pearson Street Manchester
Thos Dunn head 56 yrs shoe maker b Ireland
Mary wife 50 yrs b Ireland
Wm Mulloney St son 22 yrs labourer
Jn Mulloney lodger 30 yrs labourer
Mary E Mulloney Niece 24 yrs cotton factory operative
Joseph Mulloney S Son 18 yrs labourer
Jas Mulloney S son 16 yrs labourer
Daniel S Mulloney Son 14 yrs labourer
Elizabeth A Summersgill dau married 24 yrs
Jane gr d 5 yrs scholar
Louisa gr d 3 yrs
Mary gr d 9 months
all born Manchester except Thomas and Mary
I have tried to write the names/ relationships as recorded
'S son' being stepson?
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Hello again!!
What a Sherlock Holmes you are!!
This is the right family cause we know for a fact that Mary Ellen was living at this address before her wedding! The way I understand this record, Mary Ellen Malone is living at the house of her aunt Mary Malone (Dunn) . I have to leave for a reunion, but I'll have to look in that... But are Wm, Joseph, Jas and Daniel the sons of Mary Malone Dunn from a previous marriage with William Malone shoe maker, in that case why would they write MaryE as a "niece" ?
Thanks again and let's continue... Wow!!
regards
jacques
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strong possibility
1871 RG10; Piece: 4034; Folio: 98; Page: 10
164 Mill Street New Cross Manchester
William Mullaney head 50 yrs shoemaker Ireland Cork
Mary wife 46 yrs Ireland Queens County
John son 22 yrs circus clown
Mary E daur 19 yrs cotton reeler
Elizabeth A daur 17 yrs cotton reeler
William son 13 yrs druggists errand boy
Joseph 7 yrs scholar
James son 5 yrs scholar
all chn born Manchester
Dennis 3 yrs scholar
what do you think?
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WOW and WOW Jackpot!!
you found them!! I am so thrilled!! and it sheds light on the other cenci you found!! Thank you so very much... I'll come back to you soon!! I have to go...
regards and million thanks!! ;)
jacques
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Hi Jacques,
well I am fairly excited by all this and think I may have found as much as possible from censuses - 1861 - 1891. You have a task ahead of you because of the various spellings regarding baptisms etc and the relationships - so I wish you lots of luck.
1861: RG9; Piece: 2945; Folio: 62; Page: 46
Cellar under 58 Major Street Manchester
William Mullowney head 35 yrs shoemaker Ireland
Mary 28 yrs Ireland
John 13 yrs errand boy Manchester
Mary E 9 yrs scholar Manchester
William 2 yrs scholar
Interestingly the entry for Mary looks as though it first was 'Henry' and then crossed out.
best wishes
Kath
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Hello Kath!
I don't have the words to tell you how grateful I am for your research and dedication! Now I'll be able to rebuild my grandmother's family on her mother's side, the Mullowney-Malone!! Is Ettie Howard (1891 census) a short form of Elizabeth or is Ettie a common name? Is it always written like this? I'll try to find out if James Howard and Mary Ellen Malone had a second girl, Ettie, and if so, was she also sent to Canada ? I have lots of work ahead , and thanks to you!!
May the joy and happiness that you are giving me today fill also your hearth!!
regards! and xx
jacques
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Hi Jacques
Nice to see you moving on this one again.
The info kath has dug out throws some interesting problems your way, just to make sense I had to put it into an Excel Spreadsheet, but still doing my head in - William to Thomas to Henry whats going on? :P
Easy bits now
Ettie I think is short for Henrietta
Found interesting link on the IGI site - but most likely not connected
Event(s): Henrietta Howard Female
Birth: 1889 Longton, Stafford, England
Death: 02 DEC 1906
You can see some photos of
Hendham Vale
Pearson Street
Major Street
here
http://www.images.manchester.gov.uk/
Regards
Ken
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Hi Jacques - it's all a pleasure and here is a bit more which belongs I think:
1901 RG13; Piece: 3776; Folio: 56; Page: 6.
4 Tavistock Street Harpurhey
Jonathan Summersgill head 48 yrs mechanic engine fitter
Elizabeth Ann wife 46 yrs
William Thomas son 17 yrs brick setter's labourer
Elizabeth daur 12 yrs
Hettie Howard niece 14 yrs
all born Manchester
Now I confess I had thought that Elizabeth of 1891 census was not 'respectably married' perhaps but I was wrong!
Also Elizabeth is a daughter to Thomas and Mary Dunn (1881) but also a daughter to William and Mary in 1871 and therefore should have been there in 1861!
Is Mary the mother (william's widow)but then why is Mary Ellen a niece?
Hettie Howard is shown as a niece to Elizabeth.
Who is Henry Malone?
Oh dear!!
There is a marriage for Jonathan Summersgill and Elizabeth Ann Mullaney 1875 4th quarter Manchester 8d 455. (Could be useful for witnesses).
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Hello Ken and Kath!!
Thanks for your informations!!
I checked the Free BMD and I found that from 1838 to 1850, 4,175 boys were given the name William Henry!! So could it be possible that Wiiliam Malone is the same man as Henry Malone? The age would fit, as well as the place of birth....
I would also say that it is the same man, cause in 1891, John ,44years old, and Joseph 26 are both noted as his sons...If Henry was an uncle...they would have written nephew; and we also see that Mary Howard and Hettie Howard are called grand-daughters... and the same goes for Mary Summersgill ... So we have 5 written proofs that Henry is the same man as William.
Was the Mary living with Thomas Dunn , William's wife? I would think so..... is she having an affair with her husband's collegue? Thomas is also a shoemaker... Is Wiiliam away , sick or on his own for a while, or with somebody else...
Why in the 1881 census are the seven children of William and Mary from 1871 almost all called step sons? Was the status of a person living in the house determined in regards to the Head of the household? If so, it would also mean that thomas' Mary is Wiiliam.s wife...
But I still have a lot of work to do; I ordered six birth certificates tonight... we will have results in a couple of weeks!!
And I thank you also Kath for the 1901 census where Hettie Howard is living at her mother's sister, Elizabeth A Summersgill... I am waiting to find out if the Harriet Howard, born 1886 Manchester 8d,296 is my grandmother's little sister...
But if Hettie was still in England in 1901, why was her sister Mary ( my grandmother) sent to Canada to be adopted? This Hettie may confirm our family tradition about my grandmother arriving to Canada by mistake...
Let's keep working and thanks again for your support!!
regards
jacques
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Hello again everybody
My mother always told me that her mother (Mary Howard) had arrived in Canada by mistake; she probably heard that story from Mary Howard herself... She was not supposed to leave the country. But one day, when she saw her friends going on the boat, she followed them and it's only after the boat had left that someone realized that she was on board and should not have been...
She was only 8 years old, old enough to follow her friends, but not old enough to realise that she was doing something she would not be able to undo... One thing that could corroborate that is the fact that her possible sister Hettie, whos is living with her in 1891 at their grandfather Malone's house is still in England with family in 1901. Someone told me one day that in those days, families would help each other and be there for the other. Now that we know that my grandmother was not in an orphanage after her mother's death in May 1890 but with her grandfather Malone, and uncle John and Joseph, and with sister Hettie, it's easier to belive that she came by mistake, and not that nobody in the family wanted her...
I still have to work on that... I made a request to the Bernardo organization... but it could take a while before receiving an answer; but if they don't have a file on her... it could maybe mean that she came by mistake...
we will know one day!
thanks for reading my topo and helping me go further in my investigation!
Regards
jacques
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As you say, Jacques, lots of work to do. I wondered if William was also Henry but am confused about the Dunns!
As a matter of interest, where did your grandmother go when she arrived - is that known?
regards
Kath
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Hello Kath
When my grandmother arrived in Quebec in 1893 on the SS.Circassian, she was put on a train with other children, and the train stopped at each train station where people would pick up a child as they wish!!The train stopped at Victoriaville, and the owner of the Grand Union Hotel( the first class hotel at that time according to newspapers), mr. Jean-Thomas Samson, said " I want the little red haired girl"" and it was my grandmother!! She was lucky cause they were a very good family.
Mr Thomas Samson had only one daughter, Mathilda, older than little Mary. I am still in contact with the daughter -in law of Mathilda, mrs Marguerite Kiropuac-Beaudet in Victoriaville; she is over 80 years old, and she gave me the wedding picture of Mary( I had never seen it) , and a picture of Mary and my mother when she was 1 year old ( the oldest picture of my mother I had was when she was 6 or 7 years old)! What a joy to find that!!
The Samsom-Beaudet tradition doesn't say that my grandmother arrived to Canada by mistake; our version was new to mrs Kirouac-Beaudet... which is the right one? lol
Thanks for your message.
have a nice day Kath!!
regards
jacques
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Hello Kath
would it be possible to see a scan of the 1891 and 1861 census where you took the information you gave me? I am asking for two reasons
In 1891, I would like to see the name of "May" or Mary Howard
and in 1861, I would like to see the entry of "Mary", cause you said "it looks as though it first was 'Henry' and then crossed out" I would like to study that carefully!! lol
Thank you so much!
regards
jacques
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Hi Jacques,
thank goodness you asked me to look at 1891 again- I am trying to figure out re the scans BUT on relooking (is that a word??) at the actual - I think it's Mary and not Henry!!!! It has been transcribed as Henry and I foolishly did not scrutinise it sufficiently.
This would then fit that William died - Mary might have remarried/ cohabited with Thomas Dunn- he may then have died/ left her. All speculative I know but it would solve that little mystery.
I'll try to sort out what to do re scans.
Kath
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Jacques,
I have sent you a couple of personal messages - only because some info I have found may not be yours/ or relevant and I don't want to digress!
Kath
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I'm going to try to show the image - my previewhasn't shown it so I am not holding out much hope - as I said in pm I can send it be email if you want Jacques.
(http://C:\Documents and Settings\Amilo 2\Desktop\william1.jpg)
didn't work!!
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hello Kathleen
With the reference you gave me on the possible birth of Mary Ellen Malone, I ordered the certificate!! and Bingo !! It's the right one!
She was born on the tenth of December 1851 at 39 Cotton Street in Ancoats. Her father is William Maloney and her mother: Mary Maloney, formely DUNN
I think it gives us more information on her marital status in 1881; we can presume that she is probably a widow ( to be checked out) and living with a Mr Thomas DUNN 56 years old at 96 Pearson St. in Manchester. Mary Maloney is 50 years old. So Mr Dunn is probably her brother... or a cousin ??? More research needed here, but we know more now...
Now I can look for the marriage of William Maloney( Mullowney, Mullaney,Malone) from Ireland Cork and Mary Dunn from Ireland Queens' County.
Thank you again everybody, and you Kathleen!
Regards
jacques
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that's great news!
best of luck with the rest of your research
Kathleen
ps - of course it also accounts for Mary Ellen being the niece in 1881 (to Thomas Dunn)
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Hello everybody!
Just to keep you informed, I received the birth certificate of Hetty Howard, and yes!! my grandmother Mary Howard had a younger sister! She was not sent to Canada to be adopted cause in 1901, she is living with her aunt Elizabeth Malone-Summersgil and is 14 years old.
I am now trying to find out if she married someone... it would mean that she has grand-children my age living today....
I also received the birth certificate of Mary Ellen Malone-Howard, my grand-mother's mother; it confirms also the maiden nam of her mother: Mary Dunn.
I know now that Wiiliam Malone and Mary Dunn are my G-G grand-parents on the Malone side.
From the 1871 census, it said that William came fron Ireland, county Cork, and Mary Dunn from Ireland, county Queens. I don't know if the were married in Ireland or in Manchester..... All their children are said to be born in Manchester. Work ahead... :D In 1861, Wiiliam is 35 years old, Mary 28, and the eldest child John is 13 and Mary Ellen 9 years old. and William is a shoemaker.
I finally found the birth certificate of James Howard, my grand mother's father!! It confirms the maiden name of his mother: Mary Ann Reynolds, born around 1802. So I know now that John Howard (warper, b. around 1801) and Mary Ann Reynolds are the parents of James Howard my g-grandfather. (b. in 1839) The oldest child of John and Mary, Josiah Howrd, is said to be born around 1833... I am now looking for the marriage certificate of John Howard and Mary Ann Reynolds, around 1830-32 ... work ahead again :D
Thank you again very much to all you out there who are so dedicated in helping people like me find their roots in England!!
regards
jacques fortier, Province of Quebec, Canada
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Jacques,
I am so pleased that you have got this far! I wish you good luck for the future.
Kath
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Thank you Kath!
I could not have done all that without your help!
Big hugs!!
jacques