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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: Madraykin on Monday 11 September 06 13:29 BST (UK)
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Right - starting a new thread as the old one was all of a jumble!
Looking for my GGG Grandmother, Thirza Hodgson (nee Austin) - born around 1840 in Great Bentley, Essex. I have her marriage certificate (marries Robert Francis Hodgson of Durham) in Poplar in August 1862 (she is resident at Bow at the time). Her father is Edward Austin and he is not registered as deceased.
Edward Austin married Mary Elizabeth Chamberlain in 1837 - I am, however, just assuming that this is the right marriage. According to family hearsay, Thirsa's mother went on to marry a descendant of the Earldom of Rochford (the De Zuleystein Nassau family) and this I can kind of back up as there are pictures in the ancient family album of Rochford Nassau - he is the son of John Augustus Nassau and Mary Elizabeth Chamberlain (born 1853). Were there such things as divorces in those days, or would Edward Austin have to have died for Mary to be able to marry again - in which case why is he not listed as deceased on Thirza's 1862 marriage cert.? Even more confusing is that both of John Augustus' wives were called Mary.
Anyway, I can't find Thirza on the censuses before she was married (she's quite prominent after that!!!!). The only Thirza Austen I can find who was born at the right time is staying with grandparents in Great Bentley (which would also fit) in the 1851, but the grandparents are called Hart!!! However (there are a lot of these) in the 1861 these Harts, still in Great Bentley, have Rochford Nassau staying with them as a Grandson (transcribed as Rockford Agustes) and also a load of Chamberlain grandchildren. But no Thirza.
I've tried every trick I know to try and find Thirza on the 1841 and 1861, but to no avail. I can't even find an Edward Austin on the 1841!! (the name is transcribed Ostin in the marriage indexes).
Please can some lovely people cast some new eyes on/try some interesting searches to try and track down my elusive family???
Much appreciated, as always
Mads
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Hi
I think this is the one you're looking for in 41....
1841 HO107/338/4 f10 p14
Great Bentley
Burgess(?) Green
Mary Chamberlain 44
Thomas 20 Lab
Charles 16 Lab
George 13 Lab
Francis 10 Lab
David 9
Thirsa 2
All born within county
Cheers
Ian
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Hi Ian,
That's one I found - but Thirsa's name is Austin and, from research, there was a Thirsa Chamberlain born the same time in Great Bentley (parents William Chamberlain and Mary Cowell/Conell)
So no joy here I'm afraid, but many thanks for looking
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Has anyone else had a situation where somebody just completely disappears???
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Thirza can also be transcribed as Theresa/Teresa.
Have you looked for Theresa??
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Yep - have looked for Thurza, Thursa, Thirza, Thirsa, Theresa, Teresa, Thisa, Thiza, Thusa, Therza, Thyrza, Thersa, Thyrsa - she's on the 1851 as Thuza!
I've been reduced for searching for all people born in Great Bentley (or Bentley, or Gt. Bentley and however many other variations) and even those born in Essex in 1840 +/- 2 years and nobody comes up!
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Which makes me think - can anyone think of any other surname variations of Austin:
Austin
Austen
Auston
Ostin
Osten
Oston
Oustin
Ousten
Ouston
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According to the familysearch IGI, Mary Elizabeth Chamberlain and the Thirza that Ian found are sisters (member submitted record though so dont know how accurate this is) - Parents both listed as William Chamberlain and Mary Conell/Cowell (12 children listed for this couple in total)
Birth - Thirza Auston September 1838 Tendring Vol 12 Page 238
(cant find one for a Thirza Chamberlain.....)
Could Thirza have been the illegitimate daughter of Mary Elizabeth and Edward Austin, and the 1841 entry that Ian found being the same girl staying with her grandparent Mary?.......
oops just seen that they married in 1837 so that rules that theory out! :-\
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I don't suppose this could be her in 1861? It looks like it says Thirza Austin to me (but transcription disagrees).
Can't read the address line but it is Clapham, Surrey
Thirza Austin, servant, unmarried, 22, domestic servant, born Essex
RG9/369/1/1
any good?
Caz
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I have the marriage for Edward Osten and Mary Chamberlain (Tendring, 1837 Q4) so Thirza can't have been illegitimate - I'm not being daft though am I, this is a pretty confusing situation!!!
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It looks like it says Thirza Austin to me (but transcription disagrees).
Looks like Thirza Austin to me too! You're an absolute star Caz - am wondering why this didn't come up in my wildcard searches - but then I guess Thenga isn't really a usual misspelling of Thirza.
By the way - amazing courgette!!!!
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I agree with CatOne, checking the IGI both James and Francis Chamberlain (living with the Harts and Thurza on the 1851 entry) and others, all have the same parents listed as the Mary Elizabeth Chamberlain, christened 10th October, 1818, Great Bentley. User Submitted entries are often suspect but since all of these children have christening dates it would certainly make sense for you to view the film of the Parish Register for yourself.
It did make me wonder whether Mary Hart could be Mary Chamberlain having remarried.
Mary
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I have to admit that was one of my first thoughts, but if Mary is the mother of Rochford Augustus Nassau (son of John Augustus Nassau) as family 'word-of-mouth' and the picture album would say (he was born in 1854) it does seem like she was popping them out and marrying at an unbelieveable rate!
You're all amazing guys - I shall have to keep you posted!
Let me know if you have any more lightbulbs flashing above your heads!
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Hiya Madraykin,
no probs :)
don't worry, it's actually a marrow!!
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Again - I thought so - wasn't sure if the picture had had a bit of Photoshopping!!!
I've just had a thought as I was pootling about in some records. What if Mary Elizabeth Chamberlain was not Thirza's mother, but her cousin??? That would certainly clear up all the births and marriages going on all over the place. The marriage record that I have for Edward Austin and Mary Chamberlain would mean that this Mary could be the sister of William Chamberlain - the father of Mary Elizabeth etc. That way, the Harts could still be grandparents to both sides of the family (the Chamberlain's mother???)
What do you think, or have I not explained it properly???!!!
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I think in addition to the Mary and family of Chamberlains that were listed from the 1841 census, you should also look at the others on the same page - note the birthplace of Mary Hart in 1851- St Oryth
Next door to the Chamberlains are a family named Clary.
Then comes
St Oryth Place? Great Bentley
Benjamin Chamberlain 75 Lab Yes
Sarah Chamberlain 60 Yes
Peter Hart, Cooper? or Coogan? 40 Ag Lab Yes
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Marriage - Peter "Heart" December 1843 Tendring Vol 12 Page 509
Brides - Mary Chamberlain, Sarah Cooper or Susannah Gosling
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Nice one CatOne, I've just been going through them, you beat me to it!
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Must be your age, getting slow :P (age in profile - 153?!) ;D
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Sorry guys, been offline on the way home from work. Wonderful stuff. The Benjamin Chamberlain is a good addition as I found William Chamberlain's birth earlier on - his father was a Benjamin.
St. Osyth is a place I know well - I'm currently studying the literature of witchcraft for my history PhD, and one of the most famous English trials took place there - still holding on to that small hope that I may end up being related to someone involved in that whole business!!!
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Hi Mads
I too had this problem with the Austen/Austin family from North Essex.
I have a Elizabeth Austen born 1797 in St Osyth.On the parish Records her father is down as Arston !!!.
I think the problem lies with the local dialect and' Arston' is how someone from this area would pronounce it.
Nassau is also connected with St Osyth Priory .
Lin
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Must be your age, getting slow :P (age in profile - 153?!) ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Re witchcraft trials
I think old Ursula Kemp was last seen floating off to sea near Boscastle.
You will need to contact Phyll Hendy ,local historian for St Osyth and a wonderful font of info regarding the village.She is a genuine Toosey Whooper.
If you need a contact no for her ,I will send you a PM.
Lin
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I'd be really interested in that contact Lin, if she wouldn't mind me being in touch.
This is probably a really silly catalyst, but I have a couple of friends that are spiritualist mediums who have told me I have a maternal 'spirit' who watches over me - they think she's a GGG auntie on my mother's side (or something), and that she was often accused of witchcraft because of her natural medicine and self-sufficiency - apparently she's taken an interest in me and my research (perhaps she influenced my interests, who knows!). Her name's Rosie, so now I'm in St Osyth wouldn't it be exciting to come across someone in the tree with that name!!
Sad aren't I???
Well, I've just got myself up to almost 19,000 words of this darn essay, so I'm off to bed!
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Hello Mads,
I think that I may be able to help you with your research into your GG Grandfather Robert Francis Hodgson. I am also researching this family. According to my Records, his parents were Charles Hodgson and Sarah Barker. They had an enormous family (about 15 children) who were all rather successful for their time. Robert Francis (the youngest child in the family) had an older brother born in 1810, also called Robert Hodgson, funnily enough. This Robert is my GG grandfather. I don't know why they would have named two sons Robert, but possibly due to the large gap in their ages, the older Robert would have already have left home by the time the second one was born. These are the names of Charles Hodgson and Sarah Barker's children: Rachel Blanche Hodgson (1805-1889), Sarah Hodgson (1807-1885), Charles Francis Hodgson (1808-1882), Robert Hodgson (1810-1888), Joseph Barker Hodgson (1812-1873), William Hodgson (1814-1896), Maria Barbara Hodgson (1816-1887), Ann Hodgson (1817-1900), Elizabeth Hodgson (1818-?), Eliza Hodgson (1819-1891), Mary Hodgson (1819-?), Francis Hodgson (1820-?), Jane Hodgson* (1821-?), Theresa Jane Hodgson (1822-?), Edward Chapman Hodgson (1825-1896), Robert Francis Hodgson (1831-1874).
I am dead certain about 8 of these children, and fairly sure about 7 of them, but I am doubtful about Jane Hodgson being one of their children though, I believe her to be the second wife of Joseph Barker Hodgson, but I may be proved wrong in the future.
I have a great deal of information on who each of these children married and their descendants. These are the descendants I have for your GG grandfather Robert Francis Hodgson:
Interestingly, Robert Francis Hodgson died in the same year that his son Francis Joseph Hodgson was born. Because Francis Joseph was actually born at sea off Cape Horn, it is assumed that his father died after his birth. In the 1881 Census, Thurza, Robert's wife, is recorded as a Widow.
She had two children to raise, Mary Thurza and then Francis J Hodgson who by the age of 17 years in 1891, was recorded as being a Press Reader. It is interesting to note that he was born Off Cape Horn, Brit. Vessel. Robert's wife must have accompanied him on possibly his last voyage!
By 1901, Francis Joseph was married to Margaret and they had 2 children, Robert F Hodgson and Cyril A Hodgson. His occupation at this time was Bank Clerk. They were living at 126 Sandyford Road, Jesmond, Newcastle upon Tyne.
Mary Thurza married Charles E Reay, son of John Reay (1816-1902) and Jane Elliott (1834-1899).
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Hello Mads
I am pleased to hear from you. Yes, since sending you that message, I have discovered that several children I had attributed to Charles Hodgson and Sarah Barker were indeed not theirs. I have yet to decide how the two families were related. Unfortunately, I am in England at the moment and not at home in Australia so I don't have my research at my fingertips. I would love to discuss the Hodgsons further with you and would be happy to share any information which I have that may be relevant to you.
Kind regards
Gail
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Hi Gail
Great to hear from you, and that you've cleared up the muddle.
Yes - the inter-relation of the two families has been a stumbling block for many years - although a little break-through may have been made last night - I just need to look a little further.
I have loads of stuff I could send you - one of the main relatives that I work with - my Nan's cousin - actually lives in Port Macquarie in Australia. Don't know whereabouts you're based when you're home.
When you're back drop a message here and I'll PM you my e-mail addy so that I can get things sent to you.
Mads
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Hello Mads
Its always exciting to make a little breakthrough and I hope that last night's one will provide another little piece of the puzzle. Did you know that there was an earlier Robert Francis Hodgson who was also a Sea Captain? I came across an Australian newspaper report mentioning a Court Case regarding his wife who came to his home while he was at sea and took their eldest daughter. She already had the younger 2 children. Its a shame I can't send it to you now, but I will certainly do so once I get home again.
Kind regards
Gail
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That sounds absolutely intriguing - and, of course, if connected could really really help with the mystery!!!
How exciting - you must be buzzing around waiting for the arrival! Whereabouts in the UK are you?
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Gee you are efficient! You must be like me when I am at home, always on the computer! I have found the family history research rather addictive.
You can try googling for the newspaper article as that is how I found it. I wish I could remember all the details. I think the ship MV Joshua was also mentioned. I also found this site that way.
I must say the Hodgsons were quite tricky to unravel!
Kind regards
Gail
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Will have a peek
Hmmmmm....... the JM Joshua???
That was the existing Robert Francis Hodgson's ship........ (I'm at work - hence the 'efficiency' at doing anything other than work!!!)
Will have a Google and see if I can find!
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Got it!!!
Hmmmmmmmmm 1854 - well, his Master Mariner certificate states that he was awarded it in 1856, so he would have been sailing at this point.
Couldn't see any mention of the Joshua???
If this is him it means that there was a marriage prior to his marriage to my GGG Grandmother!
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Hi Mads
I have found the website regarding the newspaper article.
Google "Abduction - The Queen v Mrs Hagger" and you should get straight to the article. I don't know how this RFH fits into the picture, but surely he must be related to "our" Hodgsons?
Gail
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Yep, I found it earlier today. No mention of the Joshua thought......... we'd have to look for an Australian marriage record!
Want to take this via personal messages? I'd also recommend removing your home address from your post as anyone will be able to access it!
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Hi again Mads
I have made the amendment suggested. I am not very familiar with this site but the PM sounds like a good idea.
I found several mentions of the Joshua and also one or two other vessels while I was researching those old newspapers online. It was usually in the shipping news and would mention the ship and captain when they arrived and departed. There were also one or two little advertisements, one of them I seem to recall was Captain Robert Francis Hodgson who was selling a shipment of clothing or something.
I will have a look around and see if I can find them again and will send you the details.
Regards
Gail
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Another mention of Capt Hodgson and JM Joshua here:
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5874498
Regards
Gail
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Ah yes - the Argus, my relative from Aus sent that one to me.
There are a load of these 'departure' adverts in the Times around this time too.
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Hello,
I came across your post with great interest. Rochford Augustus Nassau was my great great grandfather.
I will need to check against my research at home but here is what I know:
Mary Elizabeth married John Augustus Nassau. At that time her name was Austin nee Chamberlin - I'm pretty sure I have the marriage certificate - which suggests she was widowed twice. John was indeed decended from the Earls of Rochford.
Their son was Rochford Augustus Nassau who married Jessie Warren. They had several children, two of whom died at a very early age - Nellie Thirza and Lotta May. It's interesting that the name was taken through onto this side of the family.
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Hi
I have found these records in Great Bentley Parish Register,
Baptism 2 Sept 1838 Osten Thryrya
parents Edward & Mary (Carpenter)
No other baptisms listed for Edward & Mary at Gt Bentley, Gt Bromley, Little Bentley or Little Bromley.
There is a marriage entry for Gt Bentley ....
11 December 1837
Edward Osten of full age .. Bachelor Carpenter of Great Bentley
father John Osten (Carpenter)
Mary Chamberlain a minor spinster Servant of Gt Bentley
father William Chamberlain (labourer)
Marriage by banns
Hope this helps with your puzzle
Bunnygirl
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I came across your post with great interest. Rochford Augustus Nassau was my great great grandfather.
I will need to check against my research at home but here is what I know:
Mary Elizabeth married John Augustus Nassau. At that time her name was Austin nee Chamberlin - I'm pretty sure I have the marriage certificate - which suggests she was widowed twice. John was indeed decended from the Earls of Rochford.
Their son was Rochford Augustus Nassau who married Jessie Warren. They had several children, two of whom died at a very early age - Nellie Thirza and Lotta May. It's interesting that the name was taken through onto this side of the family.
I also came across with great interest! Mary Elizabeth is my GGGrandfather's (Percy Edward Austin Chamberlain) aunt and was named after Mary's first husband Edward Austin. Until now we knew very little about her and these marraiges. I would be interested to know how large a posterity came through from the Nassau side.