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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: kizmiaz on Friday 05 November 04 14:06 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I have a marriage certificate that shows my great-grandfather as Charles Adam Willis (c1878), and my great-great-grandfather as Charles Payne Willis.
Charles Adam Willis is listed as a 'carpenter journeyman' from 5 Cheltenham Place, Brighton
Charles Payne Willis is listed as a 'carpenter'.
When my grandmother was growing up, she had always been told that she is part-Russian on her fathers side, and believes that certainly her grandfather (Charles Payne) was fully Russian, but doesn't know if her grandmother was as well.
She has been led to believe that her grandfathers original name was something like Wiliski (which doesn't sound likely, as Russians don't use W). I would guess more at Vilitski or Vilinski, as these are more common Russian or Baltic surnames.
My question for today is - did the Census anglisize foreign names to the closest approximation, and if so, is there a record of the original Russian name. Or has my grandmother been given the wrong information, and that there is no foreign blood on this side of her family?
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Hi kizmiaz,
Welcome to Rootschat.
Have I read you message correctly and Charles Adam Willis was born in 1878? If so, I have found him and his father in Brighton in 1881 at 21 Blucher Place. Charles senior was a carpenter. However, the entry records that Charles and all his family were born in Brighton. So it doesn't look like there was any Russian origin there.
If Charles Payne Willis were really Russian, then his middle name would be his patronymic name - based on the name of his father e.g. Pavlovich for son of Pavel or Paul, Ivanovich for son of Ivan. Payne looks remarkably English to me.
Do you already have the 1881 census entry or would you like me to post it for you?
Nell
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Hi Kizmiaz,
In general, there is no hard and fast answer here, it depends on who changed the name and why. It may be the enumerator "doing his best" with foreign names, it may be the immigration authorities, it may be the person himself, quietly changing to something less "foreign", it may be ... etc.
I have put some general thoughts about this question on Immigrants,
Sharing Useful Tips: GERMANY and E. Europe (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.0")
rather than repeat everything, have a look there. Afterwards, you may think of a new question, so, ask again :)
ps.
another possibility, is that your info. is wrong ! sorry, but "foreign" blood sounds more exotic to some.
My g-grandfather supposedly came from Germany, but I have no documentary proof, so, for now, it has to remain a family myth !
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Hi,
Yes, I've seen the 1881 census for 21 Blucher Place (wherever that may have been), but I wasn't sure if it was usual practise for the enumerator to change a few details if he wasn't sure of them, such as a name or birthplace if he had been given a foreign name and couldn't spell or couldn't understand it.
I knew about patronymics, and was trying to think of any normal Russian names that could be similar. I can imagine a name change of Karl Vilitski to Charles Willis, but I am stumped as to where Payne came from if there had been a name change. I had never heard the name before, so doubt if an immigrant would have chosen it.
Even on the off chance that he was Russian, I also suppose that there was no official need to register a name change, and people were just called what they asked others to call them.
Maybe it was just another family myth!
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Hi Again
RG10/ 1077/ Folio 16/ Page 13 - 15 Lennox Street, Brighton
1871 England Census
Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island
Charles Paine Willis 24 Brighton, Sussex, England Head Brighton Sussex
Ellen Willis 2 Brighton, Sussex, England Daughter Brighton Sussex
Priscilla Willis 21 Brighton, Sussex, England Wife Brighton Sussex
Occupation of Charles is Carpenter
It all looks very English to me
Chris in 1066Land
089
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Hi again
I have just checked on the 1851 census for Brighton (the part that I have is the outskirts HO107/ 1647) and although there is one Willis family listed, they were all born in Brighton - but non of them match your criteria..
There is one person on the sussex boards who has access to the 1851 for the central part of Brighton - so please post another request for Brighton 1851 for Charles Pain Willis aged 4 and family
Chris in 1066Land
090
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Again, many thanks for the info.
I think its pretty definite that my grandmother was being led up the garden path about a Russian connection, certainly on this side of her family.
I wonder where and why the rumour started?
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Hi
This is a Long shot but it is possible that your Charles Payne Willis
is related to the Payne's I have been working on.
Randolph Payne's second wife was Mary Ann Willis ( Married Covent Garden 1826)
They moved to Brighton around 1850
Prior to this marriage Randolph had been a woolen draper. After he became a very successful wine merchant.
Sorry that this doesn't directly help you, but I will see what I can find.
Anne
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You might have a garbelled story with a hint of truth behind it. It might be that "grandfather" had been in Russia!
As you family were carpenters, was there a connection with the Baltic timber trade? Had he been involved in the Crimea War? Was there a generation jump in the story and was there an earlier link to Russia? Or was the link to Prussia (part of Germany) as there are stronger German links with the Hanoverian monarchy. There are many things that can be misunderstood in a family history, so keep looking and do not lose that dream!
Rod
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Anne
Spookily enough, I have found out that my Charles Payne Willis was the son of Mary Ann, but Mary Ann Upton. His father was also Charles Willis, so I don't see any direct connection. Interesting coincidence though.
Rod, it would appear that the link to Russia in any way, shape or form is tenuous to say the least. My grandmother was told by someone who had allegedly been tracing the family that her grandfather was Russian and was called Wiliski, but I have found nothing at all which would verify this, and the person who told her seems to have been extremely lax in her research. All the evidence, checked and cross-checked, points to a good old Brightonian family from beginning to end, with only an occasional outsider from other parts of Sussex marrying into the line.
The real story seems to have been that my grandmother was always called "Russian Red" by her mother, and I am now quite sure this had more to do with her hair colour, and the fact that the Russian Revolution was BIG news, so her mother probably heard the expression that way. One thing leads to another, and a family myth is born.
Interesting how these things happen!
Thanks for the info everyone.
Glen
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Hi Glen
So Charles Willis born Brighton 1814
married Mary Upton 1835 St Nicholas Brighton
Charles Paine Willis christened 1846 St Nicholas Brighton Sep 13th
Have you checked the christening record and if so did it give his date of birth.
Also do you know were the Paine/ Payne comes from.
Was it from the Willis or Upton side of the family.
Rod maybe right I know of a family story which had a South American c 1890 ,which proved to be totaly wrong . However when we got to the 41 census there he was, born around 1795 South America.
The infomation was correct but about 4 generations out.
I have also found people who having adopted English Surnames , in keeping changed were they were born.
Best Wishes Anne
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HI kizmiaz
You did not get back to me saying were the Payne came from. I did not say befor because it seems too weird. But my Paynes seem to rise from nothing to achieve quite high standing. Ie quite a few leases for property in London . They start as drappers in southampton st and then by the late 1820sare wine merchants at 61 st james street; theycontinued in the wine trade for the next 100 years plus. In trying to find out how they got started I came across Weltje who ran the Thatched house ( a well known mens club in St james street) Weltjewent on to become a chef to the Prince Regent.
Branched out into other areas of the royal house hold. Money lender/raiser to + for the Regent . As well as playing a large role in securing the land for the Brighton pavilion. The times newspaper has quite a few of his escapades. He is described by the national portrait gallary as Louis Weltje (1745-1810), Comptoller to the Prince of Wales. Sitter in 5 portraits. If there is a conection between your Payne Willis and my lot I would be very intreasted. Your family story of Russian's maybe mistaken however if a conection to the Paynes of St James street, then it would have bases all be it several generations eariler.
When I said the Paynes did well it was only one brothers side of the family.
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Hello Anne
To be honest, Charles Payne Willis has been put quite far back on the back burner for quite a while as I have been sorting someone elses tree for them for several months, but I have found no connection with any Payne or Paine families anywhere with regards to Charles Willis. His father would seem to have been Charles Willis and his father was possibly John Willis, and I can't see any of the wifes famlies having Payne connections either.
Sorry
Glen