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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: tropicalj on Monday 28 August 06 23:28 BST (UK)
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Hello there
I am needing some help or guidance to find the arrival of
Agnes Morgan she was from Antrim in Ireland
she married John Hair 8th Nov 1860 at Beechworth Victoria
parents are Thomas Morgan and Ann Murphy
spinster aged 21
now I can see there were three Agnes Morgans arrivals on the assisted passengers list but how do I go about finding/accessing these records.
Also do the records have details of a persons background please?
I have not been able to find an entry for John Hair either, he was born in 1836 in haswell durham his parents were Thomas Hair and Ann Dunn
Any help welcomed
regards Jenn
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Hi Jenn
I can check the passenger lists for you. They give nationality etc.
Just let me know the references.
Genni
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Family Name Given Name Age Month Year Ship Book Page
MORGAN AGNES 20 AUG 1859 COMMODORE PERRY 13A 43
MORGAN AGNES 19 DEC 1858 JOHN AND LUCY 13 275
MORGAN AGNES 20 AUG 1859 COMMODORE PERRY 13 377
Hello there Genni
found these three that could match my agnes morgan
if they can out as assisted passengers how long was it normal for them to be in servitude for?
Also noted that on the marriage certificate the witness were MaryMcDermott and Robert Roxley
there is a Mary McDermott on theCommodore Perry Aug 1859
regards jenn
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HAIR AND 26 SEP 1860 ELIZABETH ANN BRIGHT B 181 005
Hello there Genni
also found this entry now my query is does AND stand for andrew not usually on the site andrew seems to be andrew, I thought maybe Hair and mrs or childrenr but no other hair on that ship by the PRovic site
So I wonder about this entry?
regards jenn
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HAIR AND 26 SEP 1860 ELIZABETH ANN BRIGHT B 181 005
More than likely it would stand for Andrew, I'll check the passenger list and see if is any more clear.
I won't be going until Saturday 9th, as I'm in Brissie this weekend.
Regarding the Agnes Morgan's in reality there is only 2. The 2 entries on the "Commodore Perry" are the same person. One is the Bounty listing and the other is the Passenger list. The period of indenture varied in time, 3mths, 6mths etc.
Cheers
Genni
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Hello there Genni
thanks for those explanations
enjoy your time up here in Sunny Qld. :o
regards jenn
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Hi Jenn,
Is the Robert R's surname clearly Roxley?
just that ROXBY is a 'more active' name on the vic bmd search list.
Just a thought.
Sue
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Hello there Sue
I am peering at it and it could be Roxby or Roxley he has signed his name the others have their mark X
regards Jenn
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Hi Jenn
Went to State Library today, found the following:
The Agnes MORGAN on "John and Lucy" Came from Worcester and was with her parents. She did go to Beechworth with them.
"Commodore Perry" sailed from Liverpool on the 28th May 1859 and arrived in Melbourne 25th August 1859
Agnes MORGAN aged 20 and a Nursemaid from Antrim. She could read & write and was a Roman Catholic. On the 30th August 1859 she was employed by Mrs Duncan of 17 William St, her wage was 20 (i think shillings) and the Tenure was for 3months.
"Elizabeth Ann Bright" left Liverpool 22nd June 1860 and arrived in Melbourne 10th September 1860.
The Master was John Starkey
All that was written regarding And HAIR was age 26 Occupation: Labourer and English.
Cheers
Genni
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hello there Genni
WEll thanks very much for this I know you hear that all the time but it is appreciated that you took time out of your busy schedule to look at this for me
It gives me an insight into Agnes Morgan and the fact she was RC, there is a story I was told by a relative that old aggie was annoyed that one of her grandsons wasn't christened so she took him down to the local catholic church and had the priest baptise him and when the mother found out she took him of to the local methodist church and had him baptised there, thus start off a family fued between the two women till the lad died and then they disputed over which church would bury him. Don't know how much fact or fiction was in this tale.
Regards Jenn
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Hello there Sue
I am peering at it and it could be Roxby or Roxley he has signed his name the others have their mark X
regards Jenn
Just a point Mary Ann Short's mother's maiden name was Roxby but I don't know anything about the Roxby family.
John
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Hello there John,
Now that is interesting I knew that the wife at home's maiden name was Short but hadn't persued that line any further but will now check on Robert Roxbys details if I can,I wonder if he shot through and left a wife a kids behind
The wedding certificate does say Roxby Did I send you a copy of it? Assuming your a John Thomas Hair who is a direct descendant of John Hair from the son he left behind in England ?
Regards Jenn
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hello
there is a Robert Roxby arriving in Melbourne in 1856 aged 19 on the SALDANHA
and a death in 1898 at Kiewa Victoria for a Robert Roxby aged 63 father John mothers name unknown
Do you think he might be a relation?
regards jenn
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Yes I have the certificate. John is my brick wall as he was born just before registration. John's son with Mary Ann Short was Tom John Hair, his son was John Tom Hair. John Tom's son was Tom John Hair, my father and I am John Tom Hair. So far the only family I have found with a John Hair and a father Thomas is the family of Thomas Hair and Ann Dunn, they had seven children Batholomew, Ann, Thomas, John, Sarah, George Robert and Mary Jane. A witness it Johnand Mary Ann's marriage was a Sarah Hair. Sarah married Joseph Hedley in 1863 and a witness was a Mary Ann Hair. So far I have not found another Mary Ann Hair. I have found what looks like John and Mary Ann's daughter on the 1861 census with Ann Hair, her grandmother and Sarah Hair.
John
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So far I only have the one Roxby name I will have to search the parish records for their marriage and perhaps I can flesh out the family a bit.
John
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Hello
I think your right there without digging into files I am sure I found Isabell Hair with the Hairs and Tom Hair with the Shorts!!
regards jenn
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Ancestry.co.uk had Isabel Ann, Ann and Sarah indexed as Harro. I believe Tom John may be the Thomas J Short with his grandfather on the 1871 census as he is the wrong age for the only other one which is a son. I have not found an 1861 census for him yet.
John
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Hi Jenn,
I do see that for ww2, two women enlisted with the NOK named as Robert Roxley. Obviously this is not your actual Robert, but could well be a descendant.
The women were Una b. 1920 and Ethel b. 1917. They were born in the vicinity of Kiewa. one at Albury the other at Kergunyah.
Kiewa is where your find of a death of a Robert Roxley was.
The Kiewa Cemetery has a contact number. [Google it as the link is long and needs shrinking for posting here]
Haven't looked at White pages but possibly stilll some there.
Sue
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hello there John
I believe I found him in 1861 with his grandfather John Short who is a widower by then living at 157 Quality row
living next door at 158 is William B Hair with his wife Ann and their son John and a lot of her family the simpsons
on John Short where born the renumerator has put durham easington for them all including William, sarah, isabell, elizabeth and thomas J short aged 3 also a sarah Cob as a visiotr
regards jenn
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Thomas J shows as a son on the 1861, I thought it was a late baby. Unfortunately I don't have Isabella's year of death as it was illegible on the MI. Now where was Mary Ann?
John
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I did have a thought or two on that
a. did she die before 1860 as we cannot find her on the census
b. did she die elsewhere in england perhaps on route to the ship?
c. did she die on the ship
regard jenn
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Mary Ann dies in 1867 in Hartlepool, she does remarry in 1865 to a Robert Davison as a widow. This is eight years after Tom John is born and it was accepted that after seven years of a spouse's absence you could consider them dead. I have her death certificate and MI. Possibly she is on the 1861 census but just mistranscribed or she went with John but returned.
John
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Hi
jt - I think this is your Mary A HARE in 1861.
RG9/3700 Folio: 81 Page: 4
Moor Houses, Hartlepool
Stephen ROBINSON Head Unmarried 66 Hepscot Northumberland Civil Engineer Magistrate & Alderman
Mary A ROXBY servant unmarried 53 Washington Durham Housekeeper
Mary A HARE servant married 23 Haswell Durham House servant
Mary A URWIN Visitor unmarried 16 Hartlepool Durham Dress maker
Elizabeth URWIN Visitor unmarried 13 Hartlepool Durham
regards
Genni
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well done Gennie
it does indeed seem to be a strong possiblity. I realise that it could be sheer coincidence, I will check the 1851 census ( I now have a current subscription) just to see if it a person of the same name and age appears
regards jenn
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hello there
had a look at the 1851 census and cannot match Mary Hare there
the two URWIN girls on the 1861 census to my working out are the daughters of Elizabeth ROXBY born 1820 c Haghton, Durham, England
and James Urwin married in 1839
so they tie in with the Roxby name as well.
regards jenn
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hello
there is a Robert Roxby arriving in Melbourne in 1856 aged 19 on the SALDANHA
and a death in 1898 at Kiewa Victoria for a Robert Roxby aged 63 father John mothers name unknown
Do you think he might be a relation?
regards jenn
found this site for the passengers for this vessel it states they were mainly miners from Durham
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Indexes/PassengerLists/Saldanha.html
regards Jenn
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Hi
jt - I think this is your Mary A HARE in 1861.
RG9/3700 Folio: 84 Page: 4
Moor Houses, Hartlepool
Stephen ROBINSON Head Unmarried 66 Hepscot Northumberland Civil Engineer Magistrate & Alderman
Mary A ROXBY servant unmarried 53 Washington Durham Housekeeper
Mary A HARE servant married 23 Haswell Durham House servant
Mary A UNWIN Visitor unmarried 16 Hartlepool Durham Dress maker
Elizabeth UNWIN Visitor unmarried 13 Hartlepool Durham
regards
Genni
Thanks, that does look like it is her as the Roxby name ties in with her mother's maiden name. Mary Ann was born 8 Oct 1837 which would make her 23 at the time of the census and she was born in Haswell. Mary A Roxby would likely be her aunt. More information to run with and check things out.
Thanks again.
John
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I found out why I have not been able to find her. Ancestry.co.uk have her indexed as Mary A Hake born in Harwell, Northumberland, England. They realy messed my family up on the 1861 census, what with Harro and Hake and changing Haswell, Durham to Harwell, Northumberland. A good reasson to troll through the images from time to time.
I did notice the folio was 81.
Thanks again
John
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hello there
had a look at the 1851 census and cannot match Mary Hare there
the two URWIN girls on the 1861 census to my working out are the daughters of Elizabeth ROXBY born 1820 c Haghton, Durham, England
and James Urwin married in 1839
so they tie in with the Roxby name as well.
regards jenn
Elizabeth's Father was a Robert Roxby a pitman on her marriage to James Urwin and a Coal Miner on her marriage to Thomas Adamson could this be the same Robert Roxby that was the witness or perhaps his son?
John
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Hello there
I downloded a copy of Robert Roxby's wedding certificate Reg no 3289
18th July, 1864 at the Minister's Residence in Rutherglen
Robert Roxby Bachelor aged 27 born South Hetton? Durham, Engand engineer father John Roxby Surveyor mother Jane Roxby nee Rowell
Ellen Dunphy spinster aged 21 born Kilkenny Ireland
father Martin Dunphy mother Margaret Dunphy nee Phelan
now the witness's names are Hugh Cain and Elizabeth Elliott
So this information may help JT in determining a family link
regards Jenn
PS how many times do we tell folks to get the marriage certificate cause it usually contains the most information, and in this case it certainly did, the death certificate wasn't going to show his mother's maiden name 8)
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Hello there
I downloded a copy of Robert Roxby's wedding certificate Reg no 3289
18th July, 1864 at the Minister's Residence in Rutherglen
Robert Roxby Bachelor aged 27 born South Hetton? Durham, Engand engineer father John Roxby Surveyor mother Jane Roxby nee Rowell
Ellen Dunphy spinster aged 21 born Kilkenny Ireland
father Martin Dunphy mother Margaret Dunphy nee Phelan
now the witness's names are Hugh Cain and Elizabeth Elliott
So this information may help JT in determining a family link
regards Jenn
PS how many times do we tell folks to get the marriage certificate cause it usually contains the most information, and in this case it certainly did, the death certificate wasn't going to show his mother's maiden name 8)
I don't think that he is the father of Elizabeth as her first marriage was in 1838. I will check things out.
John
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I did have a thought or two on that
a. did she die before 1860 as we cannot find her on the census
b. did she die elsewhere in england perhaps on route to the ship?
c. did she die on the ship
regard jenn
Sorry I am a bit late getting back but I just recently found a burial for an Isabella Short in Houghton-le-Spring 18 August 1851, this about two miles from where my Isabella was born. The information I have is Isabella Short of Haswell aged 43 which is about what I calculate her age (42 years 106 days) with this year. Her husband's MI shows 16 Aug. I am hoping to get an MI to try and confirm this is her. If it is her the son aged three on the 1861 census cant be her son.
John
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I believe the John Roxby that married Ellen Dunphy may be the son of John Roxby son of Robert Roxby and Anne Wilson. Robert Roxby was Isabella Roxby, Who married John Short. parents to MAry Ann. I have yet to prove he was the one to mary Jane Rowell.
John
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After a search of the various census it does look like the son of Robert Roxby, John Roxby, married Jane Rowell.
John
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Hello there John
So now it would appear that Robert Roxby just might have known that John Hair was allready married back in England!!
regards JEnn
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A very good chance, now I wonder which one of them came up with the idea to go to Australia. Was that about the time of the gold mining?
John
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Hello there John
yes it was , so that may have been the lure, we know that John Hair came from Coal mining families.
regards Jenn
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Robert was a miner.
John
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I visited the Church last year and it is my Isabella Short as the MI says Isabella wife of John Short. She is buried with her parents and two brothers.
John
I did have a thought or two on that
a. did she die before 1860 as we cannot find her on the census
b. did she die elsewhere in england perhaps on route to the ship?
c. did she die on the ship
regard jenn
Sorry I am a bit late getting back but I just recently found a burial for an Isabella Short in Houghton-le-Spring 18 August 1851, this about two miles from where my Isabella was born. The information I have is Isabella Short of Haswell aged 43 which is about what I calculate her age (42 years 106 days) with this year. Her husband's MI shows 16 Aug. I am hoping to get an MI to try and confirm this is her. If it is her the son aged three on the 1861 census cant be her son.
John