RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Lemmey on Wednesday 23 August 06 23:41 BST (UK)
-
I wasn't even sure whether to post this on the Welsh or English board ;D ???
I have the following all found on the English census -
Thomas Francis born 1868 Oswestry Shropshire - English I assume although I am a little confused now by seeing Oswestry listed on the Welsh board on here (I was born there)
Thomas Francis born 1844 Clun, Montgomeryshire, Shropshire - anyone know why it is listed like that? I thought Montgomeryshire was a county in Wales ???
Margaret Francis born 1866 Montgomery, Montgomeryshire, Shropshire - question as above
Mary Winifred Francis born 1862 Oswestry, Denighshire, Shropshire - I thought Oswestry was in Shropshire not Denighshire ???
I had always been told some relatives on that side of the family were Welsh but according to Free BDM and indeed the census reports they are all English. Plus if as I think likely some children were born one side of the border (if Montgomeryshire is Wales ;D ) and some the other does that make some English and some Welsh in the same family?
-
the town for the registrations was probably Oswestry, although strictly speaking it is in Shropshire.
Depends on how they felt themselves. One of my Aunties was born in Oswestry, and even now can hardly string a sentence together in English, as she comes from a strong farming background with their roots firmly in Wales.
As far as the census's go, they can only contain what the emunerator filled in.....
D
-
Birth certificates don't give nationality either do they? I think I may send for some at some point.
Strange - as I said I am Oswestry born with, I was told Welsh roots on my mother's side, but have always thought of myself as English as that is what i was told. I'm not sure it does go on what you feel more where you are born.
Then again I was born in Oswestry hospital and my parents lived in Gobowen. If they had lived in Wales I would probably consider myself Welsh despite being born in the nearest hospital and registered in the nearest town.
My sister was born in Pant Glas. I thought that was in England also but a quick websearch shows it as being in Wales.
Does anyone know if the Welsh/English border moved about over the years or has it always been in the same place? I think I need to brush up on some history. Any links or information appreciated.
-
Hi Lemmy
As far as I am aware (and am open to correction) in the 19th century censi the national border was not the same as the enumeration boundaries. Strictly speaking Wales was regarded as part of England and some parts of Montgomeryshire were listed in Shropshire and visa versa.
From what you have said, in the border country 'nationality' was where the heart was, and rightly so. Coming from a county where pub opening on a Sunday came VERY late, I can only imagine the dilemma.
Cheers or iechyd da Dave
-
Hi Lemmy
As far as I am aware (and am open to correction) in the 19th century censi the national border was not the same as the enumeration boundaries. Strictly speaking Wales was regarded as part of England and some parts of Montgomeryshire were listed in Shropshire and visa versa.
The cheek of them >:( Hummmm I think the Welsh roots are showing. Wales is not part of England :o
From what you have said, in the border country 'nationality' was where the heart was, and rightly so.
Well I think my mother's is in Wales as that is where she chose to retire. She does think of herself as English though ??? Confused lot us border born.
I remember as a child walking just down the end of the road and suddenly you were in Wales ;D
I think I'll sort the ancestors by county or place of birth - Montgomeryshire is most definately Wales as far as our family is concerned but the Oswestry born tended to call themselves English with Welsh roots!
Thanks for all your help D ap D and Dave :) Much appreciated
-
My mother in law was born in England and came to Wales at the age of 5 - no choice because her parents came. She regarded herself as English although she had a noticeable Welsh accent.
When I used to call her 'the Welsh dragon' (being my mother in law it was obligatory) she objected , sometimes almost violently, but never to the dragon bit..............
Cheers Dave
-
When I used to call her 'the Welsh dragon' (being my mother in law it was obligatory) she objected , sometimes almost violently, but never to the dragon bit..............
Cheers Dave
;D
Strangely enough in my early childhood I always wanted to be Welsh. Maybe because I spent a lot of time with that side of the family. I still feel the Welsh accent is familiar as I suppose a form of it would have been how I originally spoke. Not any longer - my accent is as mongrel as the rest of me. ;D
-
I was born just in Wales - 6 miles from Oswestry and 3 from Gobowen. Although Oswestry is in England, there's more Welsh spoken there than in many parts of Wales. The Registration district covers much of the border villages. It was also the market town (Wednesdays) for all the farming areas around.
It's history is fascinating - worth Googling to check it out.
Gadget
-
Hi all, i too, have noticed a slight tendency to move Oswestry about on some censuses according to the person born there!!!
One of my uncles ran a public house on the borders of Oswestry and i can remember staying there as a child and can vividly recall playing with a cousin and standing over a line in the road when one of the girls who helped in the pub came along and asked what we were doing " we've got one leg in Wales and one leg in England" we said.
Sorry about that folks but this thread brought back a memory ;D ;D
-
I was talking to my sister last night and she mentioned a pub with a line in where half was in England and half was in Wales.
Its not that pub is it? She thought the line was in the pub. Don't know how she would have seen it though as we were too young to be in the pub at the time.
I remember playing with my cousins jumping from England to Wales down the lane. A very big jump it was too ;) ;D
-
[quote author=Lemmey link=topic=178125.msg865577#msg865577 date=115693839
Its not that pub is it? She thought the line was in the pub. Don't know how she would have seen it though as we were too young to be in the pub at the time
Hi Lemney. Believe me, it would help my own research loads if i could remember the name of the pub. i even 'googled' the pubs in Oswestry but that didn't trigger anything helpful. confused me even more [and that's not difficult!!]. Poli
-
I think it's just south of Oswestry on the Welshpool road. Trefonen, Pant or Porth y waun ??? Memories again.
To my shame, my parents voted 'no' for pubs opening on Sundays in the 60s ? However, the border was only about 1/3 mile away - so no prob :D
Gadget
-
I think it's just south of Oswestry on the Welshpool road. Trefonen, Pant or Porth y waun Huh Memories again.
I think and it's a very dodgy 'think' that there was a sign in the road indicating where the border was then. But, as you say Gadget --memories--.
I'm talking well over 55 years ago and remember it as a country road, definitely not part of a town. There was a small shop nearby as i can remember buying a bottle of Dandelion and Burdock to drink. And completely off thread ---i found some Dandelion and Burdock some years ago and it tasted nothing :-[ like i remembered!!! Poli
-
I'm working at the moment (honest - I'm just having a quick coffee when I saw you had posted) but I've got to phone my mum this evening so I'll ask if she remembers anything about the line/pub. She wasn't much of a one for pubs though but might remember the 'pub near the line'.
She likes it when I take an interest in that side of the family and lately I've been well sidetracked by my father's side ;D
p.m. me or give me the surname of your uncle if you like - it may help. You never know ;D Also what year are we talking about when he ran the pub?
-
I think this pub is definitely the one I remember Poli. There were big trees and a shop - all leafy and sunny :)
No, dandelion and burdock just is not the same. Neither are smarties though :(
And this is much less than 55 years - honest ;)
I was thinking that those of us from that area are neither Welsh-welsh or English-english, if you know what I mean ::) ::) ::)
One offs I think! Probably because we were in the Marches 'no man's land'. I have a super old book (written 1912) on Chirk Castle and The Hundred of Chirk. Wonderful history of the area. The Chirk Hundred stretched way south.
Gadget
-
Could it be this one?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanymynech
"Llanymynech is a village straddling the border between Montgomeryshire/Powys, Wales and Shropshire, England about 9 miles (14 km) north of the Welsh town of Welshpool.
The border actually passes right through the Lion Pub in the village, which has two bars in Shropshire and one in Montgomeryshire. The Lion is now closed. At one time Welsh counties were referred to as "Wet" or "Dry" depending on whether you could drink in pubs on Sundays. When Montgomeryshire was Dry it was legal to drink on Sundays in two bars of the Lion but not the other."
Monica
-
Yep Monica - that's the one ;D ;D ;D
Thanks
Gadget
-
I'll bet it was a busy place on Sundays!
The changes in the boundaries are very confusing in the border area. I was helping someone look for her family and she had been told they had moved from Wales to England from one census to the next but when I looked at the actual returns they were living on the same farm. It was the boundary that had moved around them!
Monica
-
Aha someone has beat me too it.
I was just talking to my sister again as my mum didn't know. My sister said she remembered the pub from walking to my Great Aunty Hilda's who lived in Pant. It was my great aunt's friends who told her abou the pub.
I've just found this site http://www.llanymynech.org.uk/ Llanymynech Community Project. Has some old maps for the Pant/Llanymynech area from 1837 to 1986 (not all years). Also some old photos. A great site for anyone who's interested in the history of that area. I'm saving it ;D
-
The Lion at Llansantffraid south west of Oswestry also had a wet and dry bar on Sunday during the 1940's. However it clearly sits in Wales now, locals still refer to the English and Welsh bars.
Confused i am and my grandmother was the landlady!!
-
Could it be this one?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanymynech
"Llanymynech is a village straddling the border between Montgomeryshire/Powys, Wales and Shropshire, England about 9 miles (14 km) north of the Welsh town of Welshpool
slightly off the subject, but llanymynech has a golf course ( qiute good if you are a mountain goat ) one hole has a tee in wales and the green in england,( or is it the other way round?)
steve