RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Lemmey on Friday 18 August 06 23:23 BST (UK)
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I've been tracing family for a few months but only using family word of mouth and census info. However tracing my father's family is more complicated as his grandmother died young and his mother (my nan) was raised by someone else from the age of 5 so starting point for that side of the family was with my nan's birth certificate.
My nan's mother is named as Emily Gardiner on my nan's birth certificate. However on her marriage certificate (to Alfred Skilton) she is named as Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner. The 'print out' if you look up the marriage on e.g Free BMD says Lemmey Payne Harriet but I've got a copy of the certificate and it looks like Jayne to me ::) Its definately the right person as the address is the same for Alfred on the marriage certificate as it is for both of them on the birth certificate.
Her father is named as Noah Gardiner on the wedding certificate so I looked him up on the 1901 census. He is down as Gardner with a daughter Jane of the right age.
The census listed several families with an address of Bottom Barn, Court Farm. It also says see page 54. On page 54 it simply says Court Farm, Gypsies.
Also listed as Gypsies alongside the Gardners 'at' Bottom Barn are the following families: Curtis, Cooper, Lee, Deighton, Dilloway.
I can find no trace of Lemmey/Emily/Jane's birth certificate but would love to know which name she started with. Calling children by their second name is still a family tradition so her being Jane on census and Lemmey/Emily on certificates seems about right ;D
Being rather new to this does anyone know how I can find if her name is actually Lemmey or Emily? Plus is the confusion regarding first names usual?
Edited to add - any hints on tracing Romany Roots also much appreciated.
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Hi Lemmey
You mention having found a possible family in the 1901 census - have you found them in 1891?
If not, do post all the details for the whole family (names/ages/birthplaces)from 1901 and I'm sure somebody will take a look for you.
There is a birth registered for a Lemintina GARDNER in Surrey 1864 - too early for yours but I wouldn't be surprised if she were related somehow - travelling families often used the same names for several generations.
Casalguidi
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This could be the same family in 1891:
RG12/602; Folio 81; Page 45
6 Simmons Cotts, Mitcham, Surrey
Noah Gardner - Head - 40 - Hawker
Clara Gardner - Wife - 38
(?)Caroline Gardner - Dau - 15
Elizabeth Gardner - Dau - 13 - Scholar
Mary Ann Gardner - Dau - 10 - Scholar
Jane Gardner - Dau - 6 - Scholar
Leman Gardney - Dau - 3
Henry Gardner - Son - 6m - b. Mitcham
All except Henry born Carshalton, Surrey.
Rambler
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Thanks for the reply Casalguidi. Particularly the information on Lemintina which would make more sense of the unusual name Lemmey. Plus Emily sounds similar enough for her to be known as/mistaken as afterwards and you don't need to show your birth certificate to register a child's birth I think ???
1901 Census: Bottom Barn, Court Farm, District Godstone
Noah Gardner age 50, FieldLabourer
Richard Gardner, 6; Sarah Gardner, 3; Harry Gardner, 8; Jane Gardner, 16
All listed as born Croydon, Surrey
1891 Census: No 6 Simmons Cottages, Parish of Mitchum, Rural District of Croydon (not listed as gypsies)
Noah Gardner age 40, Hawker
Clara Gardner, 38
Caroline Gardner, 15; Elizabeth Gardner, 13; Henry Gardner, 6 months; Jane Gardner, 6; Leman (?) Gardner, 3 (girl); Mary Ann Gardner, 10.
Birthplace given as all born in Carshalton, Surrey
Found on BDM - Elizabeth Gardiner born Jun 1878, Epsom, Surrey
Mary Ann Gardiner born Jan/Feb/Mar, Epsom, Surrey
Henry William Gardiner, born 1890, Croydon, Surrey
Am assuming 1891 family are same family as found in 1901 because of Noah and Jane. Caroline, Elizabeth and Mary Ann would have been old enough to have left (Lemmey/Emily married at 20) However they would still have to have lost 2 children Leman and Henry (unless Henry is Harry and the age is 2 years out)
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This could be the same family in 1891:
Rambler
Thanks Rambler. Glad you think they are a possible too.
It took me so long to type that lot out that by the time I had you had posted and I couldn't bear risking losing it to look at your post first, sorry. ;D
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There is a "Lenny" Harriet GARDNER baptised Carshalton Surrey 5 Feb 1887 dau of Noah and Elizabeth :-\
This doesn't quite fit with a registration of birth for a Leamantinia Harriett GARDENER registered in the March quarter of 1888 Epsom Surrey ref. 2a 11
I wonder if these could be the same person ................ ie a mistranscription on the date from the baptism register ???
Possible siblings Elizabeth 28 Mar 1880, Jane 28 Dec 1884 also baptised Carshalton
Casalguidi
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I think I've just realised something ;D
In the GRO marriage index it says "Lemmey Tayne" (Lemmey Tayne = Lemmentina or whatever pronounciation they were using) so I think she was probably Lementina Harriett GARDENER - not Jane at all ???
Casalguidi
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There is a "Lenny" Harriet GARDNER baptised Carshalton Surrey 5 Feb 1887 dau of Noah and Elizabeth :-\
This doesn't quite fit with a registration of birth for a Leamantinia Harriett GARDENER registered in the March quarter of 1888 Epsom Surrey ref. 2a 11
Aha I notice the Gardener/Gardiner/Gardner is spelt differently yet again.
Just to confuse things further I estimated Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner must have been born estimated 1886 because she is 20 when she marries in 1906.
Leman Gardner I estimated to be born in 1888. So I wonder if Leamantinia Harriet born 1888 is Leman? And 'Lenny' baptised 1887 is Lemmey Jane Harriet? Sisters with similar names?
Possible siblings Elizabeth 28 Mar 1880, Jane 28 Dec 1884 also baptised Carshalton
I estimate the Elizabeth I found would have been born approx 1878. And the Jane I have I was assuming was Lemmey as she is estimated born 1886.
Thanks for all your help. Much appreciated. Can I ask how/where you have been looking up the info you have given me?
Casalguidi
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I think I've just realised something ;D
In the GRO marriage index it says "Lemmey Tayne" (Lemmey Tayne = Lemmentina or whatever pronounciation they were using) so I think she was probably Lementina Harriett GARDENER - not Jane at all ???
Casalguidi
Hi Casalguida
Much thanks for all this looking up you are doing.
Yes I know it says Lemmey Tayne. I actually found that after I sent for a copy of the certificate.
I can 100% assure myself the marriage certificate says Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner.
The J in Jayne does look similar to the T in Thomas (husband's middle name) but its not quite the same. I think it looks like Jayne rather than Tayne. In fact if I hand't have seen the GRO afterwards I would have just read it as Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner and wondered over the Lemmey rather than the Jayne. ;D
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Just to confuse things further I estimated Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner must have been born estimated 1886 because she is 20 when she marries in 1906.
I wouldn't worry about a couple of years discrepancy where ages upon marriage are concerned ................... that's not unusual at all due to the high proportion of illiteracy especially with travellers. Also, it was quite common for girls to put their ages up a bit when marrying if they were quite young :)
Yes, I would say that Leman is Leamantinia Harriett but I wonder if she were the same child showing as baptised in 1887 instead of the expected 1888 - perhaps the original parish registers will confirm :-\
The full birth, marriage, death indexes are available on a number of sites but currently free to view http://www.ancestry.co.uk
There are a number of baptisms and marriages http://www.familysearch.org but by no means complete.
I still think it's Lemmey Tayne ;D
Best wishes
Casalguidi :)
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I still think it's Lemmey Tayne ;D
Best wishes
Casalguidi :)
OK Leman could be Lemmey Tayne Harriet who could have been born in 1888 and been married in 1906 at 18 fibbing to say she is 20.
Couple of thoughts though - don't you have to show your birth certificate when you register your wedding? (they made me ;D or has it changed over the years)
Another thought - I had assumed Leman died or moved somewhere as she doesn't show on the 1901 census. ???
Oh dear - now I've had verification on the fact she was born but I don't know which one of them is my great grandma.
Thanks for all your help though - I would never have thought of Leamantinia as a possible name 8)
And to think to start with I thought her name was Emily. How did they turn Leamantinia into Emily I wonder ???
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Sorry to be a pain but all searches I do on Ancestry.co.uk for Leamantinia Harriett GARDENER, or Lementina with all versions of Gardner/Gardiner/Gardener with or without the Harriett come back as no results. The only think I can find is the marriage of Lemmey Payne ???
Did you find the birth registration on there or somewhere else? Although I must admit I was checking for deaths.
I do know whatever name she was born with one of them died as Emily Skilton in 1911. I thought maybe I could find the death of Leman or Jane and clear the thing up that way.
Thanks :)
edited to add I found the birth record by searching on Ancestry for the page etc. as you gave. I found it. I then tried doing it the other way round and put in her name and searched and it still gave me nil results ???
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Hi Lemmey
There are lots of other things you can check to see how Lemmey's name is listed which might help confirm:
As you say, Death indexes
Burial record
Headstone/Memorial
Notice of Death/Obituary in newspaper
Electoral registers (from 1918+)
Street directories (if she outlived her husband and became head of household)
Baptisms of her children
For most of these, it might require visits to the local studies archives/record office for the area(s) in which she lived after her marriage.
To search for BMD items 1911-1983 you will need to choose the Complete BMD Index ranges & Images 1837-1983 option http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx and view the indexes page by page as there are hardly any entries on the partial freebmd index post 1911.
No, I don't think you had to show your birth certificate when you married in those days or at least not many registrars/incumbants asked for it if you did.
As regards to Lemmey becoming Emily, I can think of a few possible ideas. Firstly, the way travellers speak isn't always clear to the non-travelling population so what they are saying could quite easily be mishead hence corrupted by a registrar etc.. Some years ago, a late great uncle of mine told me about the "gold needles" on his grandfather's caravan. I really puzzled over these "gold needles" and asked him more than once to clarify - turned out he was saying "golden eagles" ;D I doubt the clerics came across many occurances of Lemontina/Limentani so unless it was spoken very clearly, quite easy to corrupt :-\
Is there a possibility that the certificate you have could have been mistranscribed from the original register ???
Or maybe she just became known as Emily - some Emmas and Emilys are affectionately known as "Emmy" which isn't that far from "Lemmey" ie. Lemmey became Emmey :-\ I don't know but something to think about perhaps ???
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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I may send for the birth certificate of Leamantinia Harriett as you have been so kind as to find the details for me ;D Can find her full name on that presumably.
Also want to send for death certificate of Emily Skilton/Lemmey Skilton as I'm interested to know why she died so young :(
Thanks for the tip on searching by pages. Why didn't I think of that before!
I think you are right that she just became known as Emmy/Emily as it seems to have happened after she married.
Unfortunately not able to take time to go to Croydon area at the moment plus wouldn't know where to start. Isn't it rather built up round there now ;) ;D
I'd like to trace all the children of Noah or at least Jane and Leman so I can be sure I have the right one. Think I may have quite a job on my hands.
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Hi Lemmey
According to the index, the Emily H SKILTON who died in 1911 was aged 81 so, if the index if correct, I wouldn't have thought she is yours. You might have quite a long trawl through the indexes to try and locate a death registration but it might be quite useful to point you in the direction of the other resources mentioned.
I'm not that familiar with the Croydon area but I would imagine that it is rather built up now, yes. Quite a lot of travellers and their families appear to have settled in that area.
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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Hi Lemmey
According to the index, the Emily H SKILTON who died in 1911 was aged 81 so, if the index if correct, I wouldn't have thought she is yours.
Oh rats. How did I miss noticing that bit. You are dead right (where's the blushing smiley). I think I'll give free BDM a miss and stick to trawling Ancestry.
Drawing board - back to ::) Will have a good trawl when I have time. I can imagine this is going to be interesting as I'm not sure of the year or first name. However I do know she apparently died young so that has to limit it a bit (she says optimistically)
Thanks :)
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There is a "Lenny" Harriet GARDNER baptised Carshalton Surrey 5 Feb 1887 dau of Noah and Elizabeth :-\
This doesn't quite fit with a registration of birth for a Leamantinia Harriett GARDENER registered in the March quarter of 1888 Epsom Surrey ref. 2a 11
I wonder if these could be the same person ................ ie a mistranscription on the date from the baptism register ???
Possible siblings Elizabeth 28 Mar 1880, Jane 28 Dec 1884 also baptised Carshalton
Casalguidi
Hi Casalguidi
Found on 1881 Census which ties in with your post above.
Noah Gardner, 26 (age is 4 yrs out according to other census info but that seems to be nothing)
Elizabeth Gardner, 25 wife
Adelaide Gardner, 2
Elizabeth, 14 months
Live at 22 Levitts Rents, The Wrythe, Carshalton, Surrey
Next door live the Dellaways.
Looks like I may have found Noah again ??? Elizabeth looks like being the daughter of Noah and Elizabeth rather than Noah and Clara which ties in with the info you found above.
And I wonder if Lemmy therefore had the same mother - Elizabeth. Even though she lived with Noah and Clara when young.
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Hi Lemmey
Yes I agree, it certainly does look like the same family. According to the baptism record (if it has been transcribed correctly), "Lemmy's" mother was Elizabeth so perhaps Noah married more than once or perhaps Clara is really Elizabeth even - no doubt something you'll sort out in time :)
I wouldn't be surprised if those DELLAWAYS turn out to be related somehow - likewise some of the families that were encamped with the GARDINERS in 1901 - travelling families often congregated in large extended families even if only related by marriage somehow.
Casalguidi
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Here's a family to consider for 1871 - unfortunately lots of initials, rather than full names, but "N" could be Noah.
RG10/796; Folio 22 Page: 36
William St, Carshalton
Mary A Gardner - Head - Wid - 44 - Hawker - b. Deal, Kent
N Gardner - Son - 20 - Labourer - b. Som Wells, Kent (?)
Thos Gardner - Son - 18 - Sieve Maker - b. Hadlow, Kent
E Gardner - Dau - 14 - Sieve Maker - b. Essex
Wm Gardner - Son - 11 - Scholar - b. Essex
Geo Gardner - Son - 9 - Scholar - b. Croydon, Surrey
L Gardner - Dau - 7- Scholar - b. Carshalton
Jane Gardner - Dau - 5 - b. Carshalton
Ada Gardner - Dau - 5m - b. Carshalton
M Harn(?) - Visitor - 39 - Sieve Maker - b. Maugey, Suffolk
Ed Harn - Son - 7 - Scholar - b. Brentford, Middlesex
In 1881, Mary Ann and the younger children are at Little Wrythe Lane, 1 St James Rd, Carshalton, living with a PENFOLD family. (MA's birthplace now Croydon!)
Rambler
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L Gardner - Dau - 7- Scholar - b. Carshalton
The aforementioned Lemintina birth registered 1864 - Lemantane baptised 6 Mar 1864 Carshalton dau of John and Mary Ann GARDENER ???
http://www.familysearch.org
Casalguidi
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She'd fit, wouldn't she? On the 1881 census she's Lena, which is close enough, given the unusual name!
Edited: IGI lists siblings Jane Bridget (1867) and Ada (1870) also christened at Carshalton, so a definite match, I think.
Rambler
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Thanks Manchester Rambler :) Much appreciated
and thanks again to Casalguidi
I think I've got a fair bit there now to work on ;D
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Hi there
This is my first time on here and I think we might be related. My great grandmother was Lemantamia or Lemantina Gardner and was born in Carshalton in or about 1865. She was my grandmothers mother and signed her birthcertificate with a X. I have got no further with my research on her so any information would be much appreciated. Were they travellers or gypsies do you know
Chellin 2
PS I also had an Aunt Lementina or Lemmy as we called her
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Hi there
This is my first time on here and I think we might be related. My great grandmother was Lemantamia or Lemantina Gardner and was born in Carshalton in or about 1865. She was my grandmothers mother and signed her birthcertificate with a X. I have got no further with my research on her so any information would be much appreciated. Were they travellers or gypsies do you know
Chellin 2
PS I also had an Aunt Lementina or Lemmy as we called her
Hi Chellin
With such an unusual name and those dates we may well be. Yes my Lemmy/Leamantinia Gardner was Romany/traveller according to my research. She also had an aunt Lemintinia, sister of her father.
I have quite a bit of information on my side of the family. :) Thanks for posting. :) I am about to pm you!
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Hi Lemmy
So nice to hear from and you and yes we are related.
Your Lemmy born in 1865 is my great grandmother.
This is great
Chellin
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Maybe we should find the appropriate forum on here to ask someone to work out the relationship between chellin and I - third cousins/fourth cousins or whatever ???
Basically my great grandmother's father's sister is Chellin's greatgrandmother. ;D
Thanks RootsChat ;D and thanks to Casalguidi and Manchester Rambler ;D
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3rd cousins once removed!
Rambler 8)
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Thanks Rambler :)
Woooo hoooooo I've inter'met' a 3rd cousin once removed.
This is my first 'distant-relation-through-family-history' find :D
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Just want to say thanks to everyone that helped in finding the Gardner family, if it had not been for you all I wouldnt have found my CUZ haha
Thanks a million
Chellin
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Little Wrythe Lane, 1 St James Rd, Carshalton
Lematamia Gardner 1864 married Josiah Smith in 1882.
Lematamia Gardner sister, Elizabeth Gardner, 1857, married Henry Penfold in 1872.
Henry & Elizabeth Penfold (nee Gardner) are my husbands 2nd Great Grandfather and Mother.
There daughter Mary Ann Penfold married John Smith in 1894.
Mary Ann Penfold and John Smith were my husbands Great Grand Parents.
There were a lot of families who married each other.
Lematamia Gardner 1864, who married Josiah Smith (above) was also John Smiths older brother, therefore making Josiah & Lemantamia my Great-Grand Uncle & Aunt.
The parents of Josiah & John Smith were Josiah & Alice Smith.
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Hi Missjano
Well that is very very interesting, I didnt know about the inter marriage thing, so we are related too, How did you get this information???
I know that Josiah Smith 1862 had parents called Josiah Smith and Alice Lane born 1836 but I have got no further back than that, have you??? I have their children as Alice, Fred, Josiah, William, John Phoebe and Nelson.
So that makes my great grandparents, your husbands great uncle and aunt so my Nan was your hubands Nans cousin is that right, Anyway welcome to my family.
Please keep in touch, by the way what is your surname now??
Chellin2
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Little Wrythe Lane, 1 St James Rd, Carshalton
Lematamia Gardner sister, Elizabeth Gardner, 1857, married Henry Penfold in 1872.
Henry & Elizabeth Penfold (nee Gardner) are my husbands 2nd Great Grandfather and Mother.
Hi from me too missjano
Elizabeth Penfold nee Gardner was the sister of my Great great Grandad Noah Gardner. I have her as 1855/1857 (dependant on source) also listed as Betsey and Lizzie on census depending on which one. I assume you know she was the daughter of Mary Ann (1827/1831) and John Gardner (dob unknown to me) and Henry & Elizabeth's children were Henry/Harry, Mary Ann, Jane, Ada, Joe/Joey, Nelly & Priscilla as I found a lot of that care of the 1881 census (Little Wrythe Lane where the Penfolds lived with Mary Ann Gardner and her other children). At that time Noah Gardner (my G G grandfather) lived at Levitts Rents, The Wrythe (so assume close by).
Chellin and I have got together to exchange information via email. Please pm either of us if you are interested in joining.
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This maybe no use but i have Gardiner's/Gardner/Gardener in mitcham, I have a Noah gardiner was born in 1895 in a tent on mitcham common, the family were all from mitcham and were all romany's we were also related to the smith's. I know this all a long shot but i wondered if there were any connection?
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This maybe no use but i have Gardiner's/Gardner/Gardener in mitcham, I have a Noah gardiner was born in 1895 in a tent on mitcham common, the family were all from mitcham and were all romany's we were also related to the smith's. I know this all a long shot but i wondered if there were any connection?
Yes, they are all related. Check out the 1891 census
1891
RG12/602; Folio 84; Page 51
The Josiah Smith 1833 was Great Great Grandfather. Mary Anne Lane was 3rd Great Grandmother. William Lane was her husband, and also Alice Smiths Father.
They are all related to one and other. Smiths/Penfolds/Gardners/Lanes etc.
You will probably hear from a couple of ladies, Lemmy & Chellin, who also have a great interest in these families.
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This maybe no use but i have Gardiner's/Gardner/Gardener in mitcham, I have a Noah gardiner was born in 1895 in a tent on mitcham common, the family were all from mitcham and were all romany's we were also related to the smith's. I know this all a long shot but i wondered if there were any connection?
Hello Sarah :)
Not a long shot at all - As Missjano has just said she, Chellin and I have all found, thanks to Rootschat ( ;D thanks Rootschat) we are all distantly related through Mary Ann Gardner (c. 1827).
We exchange information via email and, if the others agree, you are more than welcome to join. We've gathered quite a bit about the Gardners/Smiths/Penfolds/Lanes of Surrey/Kent (oh and I've just started on the Dallaways/Dellaways/Dilloways).
If you are interested pm me and I'll give you my email address.
Lemmey
(who borrowed her name from her g. grandmother Lemintinia Gardner ;) )
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Hello Sarah
Nice to hear from another long lost relative.
The date of your Noah Gardner does not fit in with mine but there were a few Noahs so maybe its another one. I have Mary Ann Gardner who had a son Noah but I have his date as 1851, he had a sister Lemantamia who was my great grandmother 1865. She married into the Smiths.
Mary Ann ( my great great grandmother) did marry again we have found out to William Lane but that was later on in life.
Please pm Lemmy or me and we can exchange info.
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The date of your Noah Gardner does not fit in with mine but there were a few Noahs so maybe its another one.
Well assuming he's a direct relative of Mary Ann (c1827) and his surname is Gardner I am guessing one of her son's children or son's son's children.
Do you know the father's name Sarah?
The possibles I have so far would be (all sons of Mary Ann). Exluding Noah my g.g.grandfather as he didn't have a son called Noah as far as I know and his sons are too young.
Thomas Gardner 1853 -
I have him in 1851 as possibly married to Ellen with one adopted child and a possible older daughter, Ada (although I have a suspicion that may be his neice staying round even though the ages are out as she said she lived there and I can't find her anywhere else). Unlikely unless he was an older dad though - he was 40 in 1891.
Verdict - Unlikely. Also unlikely father is son of Thomas.
William Gardner 1860. I have nothing on William after the age of 11 so he or his sons are a possible.
George Gardner 1862/5. Married to Louisa. Had a son George William 1888. I have nothing on him after 1891 so he would probably have had more children.
Or then again it could be someone else ;D
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The date of your Noah Gardner does not fit in with mine but there were a few Noahs so maybe its another one.
Well assuming he's a direct relative of Mary Ann (c1827) and his surname is Gardner I am guessing one of her son's children or son's son's children.
Do you know the father's name Sarah?
The possibles I have so far would be (all sons of Mary Ann). Exluding Noah my g.g.grandfather as he didn't have a son called Noah as far as I know and his sons are too young.
Thomas Gardner 1853 -
I have him in 1851 as possibly married to Ellen with one adopted child and a possible older daughter, Ada (although I have a suspicion that may be his neice staying round even though the ages are out as she said she lived there and I can't find her anywhere else). Unlikely unless he was an older dad though - he was 40 in 1891.
Verdict - Unlikely. Also unlikely father is son of Thomas.
William Gardner 1860. I have nothing on William after the age of 11 so he or his sons are a possible.
George Gardner 1862/5. Married to Louisa. Had a son George William 1888. I have nothing on him after 1891 so he would probably have had more children.
Or then again it could be someone else ;D
I think George Gardner married to Louise was Noah Dad. That's was where I found the connection to everyone else, Smith, Gardners etc.
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This maybe no use but i have Gardiner's/Gardner/Gardener in mitcham, I have a Noah gardiner was born in 1895 in a tent on mitcham common, the family were all from mitcham and were all romany's we were also related to the smith's. I know this all a long shot but i wondered if there were any connection?
Are you sure it was Noah Gardner as I have a son Noah born to Lementamia but he was a Smith and born in 1900, my grandmothers brother.
Chellin
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Yup I've found him I think. In fact I already had him in my tree :D
1901 census
Gypsies Tents, Chelsham, Surrey
George Gardner 37 (1864)
Louisa Gardner 36 (1865)
Katherine L Gardner 7 (1892)
Noah Gardner 6 (1895)
Florence Gardner 3 (1898)
Class: RG13; Piece: 630; Folio: 53; Page: 16.
Assuming that is who Sarah was referring to he's my g. grandma, Lemintina's cousin. (The son of her father's brother)
edited to add message to Sarah Jane as I forgot in my excitement of discovering another potential relative :-[
Sarah - do pm me if its this Noah. We, between us, have gathered lots of information on this family :)
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1901 census
Name: Noah Gardner
Birth: abt 1895 - Croydon, Surrey, England
Residence: 1901 - Chelsham, Chelsham, Surrey, England
Noah Parents were George and Louisa Gardner.
1891 Census
Name: George Gardner
Spouse: Louisa
Birth: abt 1865 - Croydon, Surrey, England
Residence: 1891 - Mitcham, Mitcham, Surrey, England
This is the census with all us lot on as well.
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Yup I've found him I think. In fact I already had him in my tree :D
1901 census
Gypsies Tents, Chelsham, Surrey
George Gardner 37 (1864)
Louisa Gardner 36 (1865)
Katherine L Gardner 7 (1892)
Noah Gardner 6 (1895)
Florence Gardner 3 (1898)
Class: RG13; Piece: 630; Folio: 53; Page: 16.
Assuming that is who Sarah was referring to he's my g. grandma, Lemintina's cousin. (The son of her father's brother)
edited to add message to Sarah Jane as I forgot in my excitement of discovering another potential relative :-[
Sarah - do pm me if its this Noah. We, between us, have gathered lots of information on this family :)
That's right, George Gardener is on the 1881 census with Lemintina, and with my great grand mother Mary Anne Penfold.
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That's right, George Gardener is on the 1881 census with Lemintina, and with my great grand mother Mary Anne Penfold.
Mary Ann Penfold being the daughter of Henry Penfold and Elizabeth Gardner (who was the sister of George and Noah my g.g. grandfather) :D
well at least that bits clear and simple for a change ;D Providing, of course, we have the right one ;)
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That's right, George Gardener is on the 1881 census with Lemintina, and with my great grand mother Mary Anne Penfold.
Mary Ann Penfold being the daughter of Henry Penfold and Elizabeth Gardner (who was the sister of George and Noah my g.g. grandfather) :D
well at least that bits clear and simple for a change ;D Providing, of course, we have the right one ;)
Wonder why they all had the same names in those days. The son had fathers, daughters had mothers, sisters had aunts etc etc etc
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Hi
If your interested in Dullaway/Dellaway etc, check out my web site. I have been reaserching my name (Dullaway) for 10 years now.
http://www.dullaway.co.uk
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Hi
If your interested in Dullaway/Dellaway etc, check out my web site. I have been reaserching my name (Dullaway) for 10 years now.
http://www.dullaway.co.uk
What a great website. Don't know if related to anyone, but certainly enjoyable to read.
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Hi
If your interested in Dullaway/Dellaway etc, check out my web site. I have been reaserching my name (Dullaway) for 10 years now.
http://www.dullaway.co.uk
Great site thanks. I have bookmarked it for future browsing when I have a bit more time.
I have a Henry Dallaway 1832 Croydon in my tree. He married Jane Strudwick (1832 Mitcham) in 1856 who was the mother of Elizabeth Strudwick (1854). I have assumed Jane was previously married but Elizabeth names Henry as her father on her marriage certificate so maybe he was the father not step father. Elizabeth Strudwick is my great great grandmother.
Henry and Jane had 4 other children that I know of all surname Dallaway (according to census) - Henry 1857, Rich 1860, Adelaide 1865 and 'Jno' 1869 all born Croydon.
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Hi,
Forgive me for possibly hijackling this thread. I've been reading this Gardener/Gardiner thread because it showed up on a search for Simmons Cottages, Mitcham, Surrey.
My interest is because you have been discussing families in Mitcham and also because 'Chelin2's" signature mentions "Dixon".
I have found that my Gt Grandmother was called Rose Dixon. According to the 1901 census she lived a 4 Simmons Cottages. I also have a marriage cert from June 1901 when she married an Alfred Jones. On this certificate Rose's father is Robert Dixon.
I have been unable to find any other mention of her or any relatives so thought I'd take a chance and see if "Chelin2's" Dixon is the same as "my" Dixon! They are proving quite elusive to me!
Many Thanks,
Martin
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No sorry the name Dixon is another thread on my tree and is nothing to do with the Travellers. My Dixons came from Camberwell
Chellin2
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Hi
I know this is an old thread, but I hope i can continue it.
Its a longshot I am seeking info that you may be able to help me with.
Louisa who was married to George Gardner is my Great Grandfathers George Hunt's sister Louisa Hunt b c 1865.They married in 1889 in Croydon
Their parents were William Hunt b c 1835 (debateable year of birth ) and Eliza Smith b 1843 Witney Oxford shire.
The children I have found so far for Louisa and George Gardner are
George William b 1889 in Mitcham
Noah b 1895 in Croydon
Catherine Louisa b 1891 in Croydon
Florence .
Eliza Smiths parents are meant to be William Smith b Hailey c 1791and a Mary.b Witney Oxfordshire. Still investigating.
I have hit a brick wall with my great grandmother George Hunts wife Mary ann (Aka POlly or Pol ) Reed. On marriage cert father was an Aaron Reed.
Poll should have been born in 1885/6 but cannot find a birth records for her. As I dont know her mothers name I cant even trace her with a maiden name.
she married in george 1905 in Deptford.
She may have been Irish.
She suffered from epilepsy and had a fit as a teenager and fell into a fire, burning the left hand side of her face.
She was also known to be a notorious fighter especially when she had a drink.
Take on any man.
The family eventually settled down in Brockley near Lewisham kent, but had also lived in Peckham Kent.
Poll HUnt died in 1947.
Have you heard any stories about Poll Hunt or know of any history/
Regards Carol
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Several years later ..... :-[
Have just found Mary Ann Reed on Ancestry. Her mother was Annie Brooks c 1866.
Interestingly enough there is a story that there is Irish ancestry in our family tree somewhere. I haven't found it yet though!
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Hi
What a lovely surprise after all this time, but I can now update you even further.
Yes Mary Ann Reed aka as Polly was born to Annie Brooks and father was an Aaron Reed/Read.
Mary Ann was born 21 april 1887 and she lived at 68 Mill Lane Deptford. Father was a hawker.
Her birth record was registered as Read.
They also lived in Baildon Street.
Aaron Reed was also known as BAKER. he was born in Hothfield Kent. Aaron took the official name of Reed from his mother Eleanor Ann as she had him out of wedlock.
Father was Aaron Baker b abt 1840 place unknown at the moment.
Since this thread emerged several years ago, I found the Hunt family also married into the Nottinghill/dale Taylors.
George my great grandfather had a brother called Albert Hunt b 1871 Bushey Herts.
He "married" Isabella Taylor also known as Bella Smith daughter of Athaliah Taylor and Sam Smith.
Other members of this family carried the name of Taylor and COOPER . Daniel Cooper who married Mary Jane Mills in Croydon (Daughtor of Eli Mills).
Athaliah was "married" to Joshua Cooper and had several children. He died young and she went on to have liasons with Sam Smith, son of Perron Smith I beleive.
Athaliah and her family ended up in Osborn Road Acton and she died there. in 1902
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See also for the BAKER/REED connection http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,374690.0.html
Father was Aaron Baker b abt 1840 place unknown at the moment.
Aaron BAKER appears on the 1851 census for Sellindge, Kent as bc1844 Harrietsham, Kent (parents Benjamin and Hannah). Sorry I don't have the full details in my notes perhaps somebody else can post if you can't access the census.
Casalguidi :)
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Hi
Thanks for that and Yes I can access the census. x#
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Hi all,
I have followed this thread with interest as i have Gardiner connections to my tree. However my current research is on the REDWORTH family. I have just come across a Synnermenter Gardiner who married a Redworth in 1913 at Woolwich, no other info. I was about to post a new thread when I remembered seeing this one. Does anyone recognise the name although probably not spelt correctly.