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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: GordonD on Friday 18 August 06 11:44 BST (UK)
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I have read that in England that it wasn't until 1875 that registration was more rigourously enforced with fines being introduced for people who did not register BMDs. I was wondering if anybody knew what the situation was in Scotland? Were there fines from 1855 or at a later date?
The reason that I am asking is that I have a family in which I can find no birth registrations for any of the 9 children that I know about from census returns. My Rose Ann Campbell appears to be the youngest child born around 1875 to John Campbell and Susan McLuskie. Looked at lots of Rose Campbell/Rose Ann Campbell entries in the period 1872-1876 in Lanarkshire when first started but none of them matched up. From the census data I have since found there should be at least 9 children born to the couple over the period 1855-1875:
Hugh in 1855 in Blantyre (1871 census)
Peter in 1858 in Blantyre(1871 census)
Catern in 1860 in Blantyre(1871 census)
Mary in 1862 in Hamilton(1871 census)
Susan in 1865 in Hamilton(1871 census)
James in 1866 in Stonehouse (both 1871 and 1881 census)
William in 1869 in Hamilton (1871 census)/ Lesmahagow Boghead (in 1881)
Margaret in 1871 in Lesmahagow Boghead (1881)
Rose Ann in 1875 in Auchinheath, Lanarkshire(1881)
Cannot find the family in 1861 census as yet. I've checked on Scotlandspeople for most of the births to no avail. Checked on Familysearch (as in the period of transcribed statuatory registrations) but cannot find any of them. Have searched for John Campbell with spouse Susan (no surname) and nothing resembling McLuskie comes up (searching on all counties in Scotland as well). Susan appears to have died between 1896 and 1901 and cannot find a death entry for her either (not noted as dec on when Rose married on Hogmanay 1895 and John is a widow on the 1901 census). The only Susan M*cLusk*/Campbell on SP died aged 80 in 1955 (my Susan born around 1830).
I was wondering if people thought that I should work with the assumption that John was ignorant of registration or that he didn't see the point in registering the events. Their eldest appears to be born in 1855 when it was introduced so he may have slipped through the net. I sometimes think that John may have known of registration but thought will I didn't register Hugh and nothing's happened so what the point in registering the rest.
John was from Ireland (says Armagh on the 1871 entry) and Susan was born in Blantyre to Irish parents so have wondered if they spent some time in Ireland but the birthplaces of the children suggest to me moving around Lanarkshire rather than further afield. I think that they were Roman Catholic so seeing what registers for the area are in National Archives of Scotland for that period may give some baptism records.
Gordon
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Hi Gordon
I'm not surprised you haven't been able to find them......not sure where the Campbell name comes in.........!!!
I've found some of the births on IGI, I'll leave you to find the rest! The problem lies with John Snr. surname. Now he is either a late marriage for Susan or for some reason changed his name from MACKLEHERRING to Campbell.
Using the individual batch codes for IGI from http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryScotland.htm
and searching under just mother Susan McLusky brought up the following entries, including your Rosann:
HUGH MCILHERRIN Birth: 28 MAY 1855 Blantyre, Lanark, Scotland
Parents: Father: JOHN MCILHERRIN Mother: SUSAN MCLUSKIE
WILLIAM MACKLEHERRING Birth: 17 FEB 1870 Hamilton, Lanark, Scotland
Parents: Father: JOHN MACKLEHERRING Mother: SUSAN MCLUSKY
MARGARET MACKLEHERRING Birth: 18 DEC 1871 Hamilton, Lanark, Scotland
Parents: Father: JOHN MACKLEHERRING Mother: SUSAN MCLUSKY
ROSANN MACKLEHERRING Birth: 06 NOV 1873 Hamilton, Lanark, Scotland
Parents: Father: JOHN MACKLEHERRING Mother: SUSAN MCCLUSKY
The rest of the births are probably there, in different areas, under spelling variants of Macleherring.
The 1855 cert. looks a good one to start with!
Regards.
Monica
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Gordon
There is also a death entry showing on SP in 1897 in Lesmahagow, Lanark for a Susan Mcluskey, other name Mackleherine. Birth year of 1831.
Monica
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Thanks for the information Monica. Will look up the other births and the death of Susan McLuskie (going to Register House in Edinburgh next Thurs and Park Circus a week on Monday so must resist the temptation to look at SP in the mean time!)
The Campbell came from following back from my greatgrandmother's (Susan Davidson) marriage cert (1922) which gave her mother's maiden name as Rose Ann Campbell. Susan's birth certificate(1902) also stated the mothers maiden name as Campbell with the marriage given on this birth cert as 1895 Lesmahagow. Have the marriage of Rose Ann Campbell and Thomas Davidson in 1895 which gives the Rose's mother's maiden name as Campbell. John Campbell (really Mackleherine?)widow of Susan McLuskie died in 1904 in Lesmahagow. Death registered by son James Campbell. Looking at the maiden name of John's mother this is Campbell so obviously they really liked the surname Campbell ;D
Will look on the 1861 census under Mackleherine variants (can't find them as Campbells). Will check out the other cenus data that I have to verify them but everything else ties up apart from the obvious new surname Campbell (prob best to rule out another marriage of Susan). Got John and Susan as Campbell on on the 1871,1881 and 1891 and then John Campbell as the father-in-law in the Thomas Davidson/Rose Ann household in 1901.
Gordon
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Hi Gordon
This really is an unusual one. I'm pretty confident we have the right John/Susan children's birth entries. I've just had a quick look at the 1855 entry for Hugh. The info is all as you stated. John and Susan married in 1854 Blantyre. Hugh was their first child. John is showing as age 25 born in Co. Armagh, Susan looks like age 23/5 (can't make out) born Blantyre.
I've also found son James's birth entry on IGI in Stonehouse with father as John Mcil...so we are up to 5 children's birth entries with that father's surname.
We also now have the death entry in 1897 in Lesmahagow (where John died in 1904) which fits Susan's details but also with McIl, not Campbell.
Why oh why did he change to Campbell?
Do you have Susan McL's parents names?
Monica
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Have a set of parents' names but only from census data in 1841 and 1851 (both in Blantyre) so they're not verified by other sources.
Believe her parents to be Peter McLuskie who would have been born around 1800 in Ireland. He died in 1857 in Blantyre. No occ on death cert but ironstone miner on both censuses.
In the 41 census the wife is Catherine McLuskie born around 1810 in Ireland. In the 1851 the wife is Caroline as her first name born around 1808 in Ireland.
Definitely the same household as the children who were on the 41 are in the household in 51 with ages moved 10 years on (James, John, Susan, Margaret, Catherine, Peter, Mary). All born in the county in 41 and in Blantyre in 51.
Think I may have a death record in 1869 for Catherine McLuskie. Shows her as the was the widow of Peter McLuskie (a mineral labourer) but that has her being born around 1801(68). This was over in Whifflet, Coatbridge and gave her parents as Ross McCabe and Bridget McQuade. Both the McLuskie deaths were registered by a son James McLuskie although the son could sign his name in 1857 but not in 1869 so may not have the correct death for Susan's mother. That Catherine McLuskie's father's occupation was Enniskillen Dragoons on the death cert so suggests an Ireland connection even if it is not the correct one.
Gordon
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Gordon
Adding to the children's birth entries. We now have Hugh, William, Margaret, Rosann, James...and:
1. MARY MCILHEARN Birth: 23 JAN 1863 Hamilton, Lanark, Scotland
2. SUSAN MCILHOM Birth: About 12 JUN 1865 Hamilton, Lanark, Scotland
The variants on the spellings don't make it easy to find them without the use of the batch codes. Only Peter and Catern to find and you have the full set!
Monica
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Gordon
Mystery solved - we have the right people! On Susan's Mcluskie's death cert in 1897, her husband is down as John Campbell Mackleherine. Her son James Campbell reported her death.
John Campbell Mackleherine, obviously dropped the Mac Irish name over the years and adopted the more Scottish Campbell surname from his mother's side!
If you PM me with a contact email, happy to send you more details.
Regards.
Monica
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Thanks for all your help Monica it's been very useful. Especially for looking up things on Scotlandspeople. Trying to cut out my usage of it till after my trip to Scotland next week. A mystery solved! Will PM you with my email address.
Gordon
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Hi just discovered this site. This is also my family. Mary McIlhearn was my g g grandmother. Also took a while to find them due to name change. I had been told by s cousin they changed their name as it sounded too Irish so they could get work. I see this post was 15 years ago but would be interested to see if any more information on family as thought there were 10 children but can only find 9
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Hi just discovered this site. This is also my family. Mary McIlhearn was my g g grandmother. Also took a while to find them due to name change. I had been told by s cousin they changed their name as it sounded too Irish so they could get work. I see this post was 15 years ago but would be interested to see if any more information on family as thought there were 10 children but can only find 9
There are indeed 10 according to the IGI
Hugh McIlherrin, 28 May 1855
Peter McLaren, 18 October 1856
John McIlheron, 31 May 1858 (the one missing from the lists above)
Catherine McIlheron, 10 October 1860
Mary McIlheron, 23 January 1863
Susan McIlhom, 12 June 1865
James McIlheron, 8 February 1868
William Mackleherring, 17 February 1970
Margaret Mackleherring, 18 December 1871
Rosann Mackleherring, 6 November 1873.
Incidentally I didn't use batch codes. I searched the IGI for no given name, no surname, birth in Lanarkshire, father John, mother Susan McLuskie.
And in answer to the original question, registration was compulsory from the outset, with fines for failure to comply.
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Great will have look tomorrow to see which one I don't have
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A bit of a longshot but I have just come across this thread as I have reached the same point in my search for John Campbell/ Mucklehorn according to SP 1861 Census.
I am also interested in details of Boghead Miners Houses.
My father is a Robert Campbell McArthur, unusual, and we are trying to understand why the Campbell was kept.
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Hi I have quite a bit of information on the family now. The Campbell name was always used after they changed it from Mackleherring (think there are about 6 different spellings). The Boghead mentioned is actually in Hamilton although there is a Boghead near where I live in Lesmahagow.
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Hi Misha67, this site is brilliant. My Grandma is Agnes Millar Purdie born in Draffan in 1909, she married a Robert McArthur, born Summerhill, Lesmahagow, Draffan. Apologies if the towns, counties are muddled.
Their son is my Dad, Robert Campbell Mcarthur, he wondered why he was given that middle name.
I would appreciate any more information.
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I am at work just now I will try and have a look later.
Michelle
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I have sent an attachment to see if this is correct Robert Arthur
Michelle
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Yes thats Robert McArthur, born 11th Sept 1906, he married Agnes Millar Purdie.
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The Boghead mentioned is actually in Hamilton although there is a Boghead near where I live in Lesmahagow.
There are literally dozens of Bogheads all over Lowland Scotland! :)
www.scotlandsplaces lists the place name Boghead in five parishes in Lanarkshire. Aberdeenshire alone has no fewer than 31 Bogheads.
This is why it is always necessary to know which parish ancestors lived in if you want to find out about their home.
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Hi Forfarian, Thank you, in this instance it is Boghead Miners Houses, Hamilton, Lanarkshire. The 1861 census gives this as the address. John Campbell or Mucklehern, says he was an Iron Stone Miner.
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What information are you looking for ? I have certificates from scotlands people for Susan Mackleherrings siblings also census certificates. I can also have a look to see if I have any information about them in the archives of Lesmahagow as I am a member of the Historical association and have access to some records let me know and I wil try and look.
Michelle
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Hi Michelle. Do you any information regarding the birth of John Campbell/Mackleherring in Ireland? or indeed Susan McLuskie's birth? That would confirm her parents as being Peter McLuskie and Catherine/Caroline (I have seen both names used).
Did you ever find out the reason for the name change from Mackleherring to Campbell?
Thank you in advance.
Regarding Lesmahagow, thats a kind offer, I may come back and ask you about Robert McArthur (1906) and Agnes Purdie both from Draffan.
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I was told 2 stories for name change
1 was that it sounded too irish and wouldn't get work and the other was that when they came from Ireland a fight broke out in Liverpool and a man died so the names were changed. Who knows whether any are true.
I haven't really tried Irish records. I looked a few years ago and gave up.
I am friends with a girl called Caroline but her real name is Catherine so maybe it's a common thing to do.
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Hi Misha67
Thank you for that. I will look into the Liverpool link, my partners family are from Liverpool/Ireland, they grew up around the docks, they were Brennans.
On a separate note I have been looking at the maps around Lesmahagow and trying to establish which collieries Robert McArthur (1867-1940), and his father Edward McArthur (1837-1903), worked at and lived.
Robert lived in Fence Rows and then Bankend, but I cant find Fence Rows, I know it is near the "Dunrum", he worked for the Lesmahagow Coal Company. Edward lived in Bellfield Row and then Old Bellfield before he died.
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Fence Rows was where the mining family's all lived. My great grandmother had a sweet shop there. Fence Rows on a lot of certificates for my family. I notice Susan McArthur has Draffan row on her death certificate and I'm sure it's all the same area. There was also Fence pit where they would have worked and I have a photo of it somewhere. If you look at a map it was in Southfield/Draffan area. Backend was in Coalburn a few miles up the road