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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: hazelmoore on Saturday 12 August 06 16:28 BST (UK)
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If any kind soul has the occasion to go to St Andrews RC Church in Newcastle I would be so grateful if they could find the names of the parents of Joseph BLACK born about 1797. He married Mary Ann Lazarus/Ladzrie/Lazzari (also trancribed as Ladenie) in the same church 18.2.1822 but there are no parents names on the entry - just the witnesses, John Gulloway and Mary Ann Avery. IGI suggests he was christened in 1797 at St Andrews when I had supposed he was born in 1804 in Wallsend - to Joseph Black and Ann Gaskin/Gascoigne. I had always supposed that the Catholic 'era' started with his marriage to Mary Ann (she was the daughter of an Italian immigrant) but now I am stuck. Can anyone help me?
Thank you very much in advance,
Hazel
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There is a Joseph Black on the IGI batch numbers for Northumberland to parents Joseph Black and Ann Gascoyne think its Carville Wesleyan Church p000381.
b 12/12/1804 Chr 21/4/1805.
Bill.
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Sorry meant to say Wallsend.
Bill.
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I jumped in to soon I see that you have two Joseph Blacks and its parents of the first that you requested.
Good hunting Bill.
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Hazel,
No need to go to St Andrew's RC to see the church records.
They are all on film in Tyne & Wear Archives, in Newcastle.
I have spent a lot of research time in those records and those of St Mary's RC church.
Some of my Gallaghers, catholics from Ireland, married in 1820s and later, in Newcastle.
But not in St Andrew's RC or St Mary's RC. They married in Anglican churches, but baptised their children in St Andrew's RC church.
This seemingly unusual behaviour was forced on them because English Law decreed that the only LEGAL means of marriage for all was in the"established church of the land"
( Quakers and Jews were excluded from this "restriction" )
So Catholics ( and other "non-conformists" , e.g. Methodists)
had the choice...
marry in a church of a different faith,
not marry, or
marry outside of England.
Some crossed the border into Scotland to marry.
This law was removed in 1837 allowing Catholics (etc) to marry in their own church.
So your info that your couple married in St Andrew's RC church, caught my eye.
It brought to mind a church notice board in Newcastle, I pass most days...
The board states " The Oldest Church in this Town"
It is the Parish Church of St Andrew's.. Church of England.
Whether Joseph and Mary Ann were catholics, they were married in this C of E church.
I would normally have hedged my bets and said " they probably married in a C of E church"
The reason I am so sure, is that their marriage record ( at least an index containing it ) is on line.. 18 Feb 1822 MaryAnn's name written as LADZEE.
I hope I get this bit right... the web page is at
http://genuki.cs.ncl.net.ac.uk/Transcriptions/NBL/NSA1800.
html
When catholic marriages started the priests recorded lots of good info, not just the four parents of the spouses by there, but the parents whereabouts, in England, Ireland etc... some e.g. St Patrick's Felling, even recorded the maiden name of the mothers of the marrying couple.
I am looking at my transcriptions of RC baptisms in 1820s at St Andrew(RC) and St Mary(RC) this is what the priest recorded..
Name of child, date of birth, date of bapt, father's name and mother's including her maiden name, and the godparents.
Michael Dixon
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Thank you Bill and Michael.
Michael, what you have told me is very interesting. I am sure however that Joseph and Mary Ann (it is Ladzrie on the Marriage Entry photocopy) were (or became) Catholics as all their children's Baptisms, Marriages etc., down to the present day, are Catholic - many of them having been celebrated in St Andrews RC!
I am curious to know if Joseph's parents were also Catholics - thus he is probably the 1797 entry - or not, in which case he could very well be the Wallsend 1804 entry! (Although he would have been married aged 18 and Dad a year later!)
Now my question is if anyone can access the Tyne & Wear Archives as I live in Italy and it's a bit far away!!?
Thank you for your interest,
Hazel
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Hazel,
I was careful not to say whether they were catholics or not.
All I was saying is that they did not marry in a Catholic church.
They married in the "Church of England"
I regularly go to T&W Archives and would be pleased to look up your folk in church records.
They have records for St Andrew's... Bapts from 1778. Marriages from 1837.
St Mary's (now the cathedral) Bapts from 1844, Marriages from 1844..
(also burials).
A Catholic born in Wallsend in that era, would have been baptised in St Andrew's (RC) Newcastle (No RC Church in Wallsend until late 1800s.)
An Anglican born in Wallsend in that era, would have been baptised in Wallsend Parish ( C of E ) Church, unless the parents had moved into the city of Newcastle. Then the baptism could have been any of the five or so C of E parishes within the city.
Do you know the names, in sequence of the children of Joseph and Mary Ann ? This would give good clues to the names of Joseph's and M.A.'s parents ( i.e. first son and second dtr to be given names of his paternal grandparents )
Michael Dixon
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Hello Michael,
How kind of you to offer! Yes I do know the names of their children :-
John Alexander b. 1.3.1823
Joseph b. 19.7.1825
James b. 4.9.1829
Sarah b. 18.2.1832 all born in Newcastle
I do also have all the children of Joseph (who I am descended through) and James.
I understood that St. Andrews was 'the' RC church in Newcastle, so I assumed they were married in the Catholic Faith and I know all their kids had 'sponsors' at baptism. I gather this is what we call GodParents!! However Joseph was certainly not necessarily Catholic before the Marriage which makes the pinpointing of his parents more difficult
Mary Ann's parents were Paul Anthony Lazarus and Sarah Matley (they married in Manchester Cathedral in 2.12.1802)
- if you need any more details please let me know and thank you again for your very kind offer!
Hazel
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Hazel,
I shall have a go in the next week.
I am not sure if I have been clear on the "St Andrew's" church thing.
There was/is at least two churches dedicated to St Andrew in Newcastle.
St Andrew's in Newgate was built in the C12th.
This will have been Roman Catholic in it's day, but after Henry VIII's Reformation, it became Church of England/Anglican.
It took a while for the revival of Roman Catholicism in England
(not helped by the Gunpowder Plot).
Newcastle's first RC church was St Andrew's, in Worswick St. First worship in 1798 ( but no marriages).
In this era the term "parish" applied only to C of E.
Even today when I go into the Archives...the shelves, books or indexes labelled "Parish Records", apply only to C of E.
Catholic records ( and Methodist's, etc,) are sometimes labelled "Other Church Records", or"Non-Conformist Church Records"
Although I am a geegee man, I would not bet on this, but IGI contains mainly Parish/C of E records, and not many catholic records. So although St Andrew's Newcastle C of E records are likely to be on IGI, I am not sure whether St Andrew's Newcastle RC records are ?
Michael Dixon
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Hello Michael,
Thank you for your clarifications. Although I did 'know' that the first St Andrews RC was started as a small Chapel in 1798 it hadn't really made an impression on how it might have affected my family! You have certainly helped me see this!
Of course another thought has struck me, (I can't see the wood for the trees sometimes!) Joseph b. abt. 1797 is on the same entry as his Marriage to Mary Ann Ladenie (!) 17.2.1822 in IGI. This is not a Parish Record but a 'contributer's entry' and therefore not to be taken as Gospel. Elsewhere, still on IGI the Marriage is down as 18.2.1822 and this has the Parish Record number. So - he was probably born in 1797 and possibly Baptized at St Andrews! Interestingly there are no BLACK Marriages in St Andrews in the 25 years prior to his Birth!
By rights his Father's name should be John or Alexander don't you think?
I look forward intensely to the results of your visit to the Records Office - thanks again.
Hazel
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HAZEL,
The "English Naming Pattern" prescribes that couple shouldcall their first dtr after the child's mother's mother.
Joseph and Mary Ann did this.
The convention has it that the third son should be his father's name. Joseph/MA did this with their second son !
Which could indicate a son born and died, between John Alexander and Joseph.
The first son is to be named after paternal grandfather and second son after maternal grandfather.
But no sign of a son named Paul/Anthony ?
The marriage indexes of St Andrew's Parish Church (on line on the Genuki site) which include Joseph/M.A., were transcribed by George Bell, who transcribed throughout the county. He had a very very high reputation. (George passed away this year)
Trivia Angle
Although Tyne & Wear Archives org is the equivalent of a County Record Office (e.g. Northumberland County Record Office, Co Durham etc) it does not call itself County RO or Record Office, maybe because "Tyne & Wear" is no longer one entity, but five separate authorities, all chipping into the Archives budget.
Michael Dixon
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Michael,
Joseph (2nd born) and James both called their 1st born sons Joseph and Joseph's 1st daughter was called Sarah. Is this a more Catholic way of naming? Mary Ann's brothers and sisters were John, Elizabeth, Alice, Sarah Paul, Joseph, Martha and William, and they nearly all named their first born male after its Dad.
Maybe you could turn up a Paul Birth & Death at the archives??!!!
Hazel
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Hazel,
The Irish Naming Pattern , hence catholics, is almost identical to the English NP, also the Scottish* NP.
If you "google" on "english naming patter" you will see much info.. including an Italian version.
*The use of "Alexander" suggests a Scottish connection.
Michael Dixon
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Hazel,
St Andrew's Church Register (Church of England)
Film of the real thing.
BANNS
Banns of Marriage were Published in this Church
Between Joseph Black and Mary Ann Ladence
Both of this Parish
on the following Sundays.
3rd February
10th February
17th February 1822
MARRIAGE
The entry like much of St Andrew's records of this era is particularly difficult to read... a coming together of faint writing, poor quality of film, a filmreader impossible to focus and my eyesight.
But definitely 18th Feb 1822 (from other means I ascertain this to be a Monday ... and not just because we knew from the banns that 17th Feb 1822 was a Sunday.)
Priest abbreviated Joseph to "Jos". I read Mary Ann's name to be Lanzell or Lanzeli . But would not put money on it.
I read the male witness to be John Galloway.
I would not argue for or against the female witnesses name of Avery.
All four participants made good signatures, a bit unusual for that era. (And we have Mary Ann signing her name, and not just some official writing it down ! )
BAPTISMS.
Up to 1825 I could see no relevant Black bapts. Some Whites and Browns !
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St Andrews RC Church.
BAPTISMS
Some helpful person had produced various surname alpha indexes of baptisms containg surname and page number of baptism register. ( A pity the film of the baptisms themselves did not have them all in date order.)
Baptism
Born ? March 1823, baptised 7th (or 9th) April 1823.
John* Alex. (the priest's abbreviation,not mine) son of Jos (again abbrev not mine) Black and Mary Ann Black olim (Latin for "formerly" ) Ladz?ri
The last letter was definitely " i " as priest dotted the letter.
Third last letter was a small one. But could be read asatall letter, but the lower loop of the letter " f " from the word "filius" from the line above, cut right through M.A.'s maiden name.
Male sponsor or godfather was John* Ladya?i.
Godmother was Mary... surname could have been Avery again.. but the capital "A" was peculiar ?.
* The "John"s could have been "Joan", but RC Priests usually used "Johannes" as the Latin form of John.
Could not see Joseph junior's bapt.**
Baptism
Born 4th September 1829, Baptised 5th October 1829
James, son of Jos. Black and Mary Ann Black, formerly Ladzeri
Godparents Paul and Elizabeth Ladzeri
Baptism
Born 22nd April 1832, baptised 19th May 1832, Sarah, daughter of Joseph Black and Mary Ann Black, formerly Ladzari.
Godparents .Priest wrote "patrinus fuit" Paul Ladzari, "matrina fuit" ?????*** Ladzari
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** As I say no sign of a bapt for Joseph or any other Black.
And I don't think he was bapt here as I caught all the Blacks, from the Index.
But I shall have another look on a better day
***Godmother's first name had no more than five letters. It looked like more like Alice than an abbreviation foe Elizabeth.
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So they initially married in Church of England, then baptised their first child and others in a Catholic church.
I wonder if they went through a RC marriage ceremony after their "legal" marriage in C of E ??
So over to you for your considerations
Michael Dixon
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Michael,
Wow, that was quick!! I, in the meantime, have flown to Stansted arriving an hour late (12.45 after midnight) and having to wait THREE HOURS for the baggage to come through!!! Unfortunately I am without my Family Research files so cannot check what I already have against what you have told me - I think the Alice maybe Paul Ladzrie's brother's wife, or another sister of Mary Ann (more likely!). I do have a (very bad) copy of the Marriage Entry - what a pity they didn't have the parents on it!! Shame there was no luck on Joseph's Baptism but thank you very much indeed for all the trouble you have taken. I must dash and get my holiday started! May I get back to you when I return home? Unfortunately I won't be able to make it up to Newcastle.
Thank you again for your trouble
Hazel
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Out of an "index" of St Andrew's RC baptisms 1825-1840
(unfortunately first bapt was dated 22 Aug 1825.
From Newcastle City Library
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5 Oct 1829 James Black, born 4 Sep 1829, 4th son of Jos and My Black (formerly LADZARI)
Godfather Paul Ladzari.. G/mother Eliza Ladzari
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9 Jan 1832 Thomas Ladzari, b.29 Dec 1831, son of John and Ann Ladzari, formerly Wilkinson.
g/f Paul Ladzari..
G/m Alice Ladzari
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19 May 1832, Sarah Black, b. 22 Apr 1832, dtr of Jos and My Black, formerly Ladzari
g/p Paul/Alice Ladzari
( I was doubley careful with dates of this bapt. !
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25 Nov 1833, Sarah Ladzari, dtr of Jn and Ann Ladzari, formerly Wilkinson.
G/p Paul Ladzari and Sn or Sh Mitchison
______________________________________________
Michael Dixon
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Re Lazzari family of Newcastle. I would be interested in any info on the Lazzari family of Newcastle as I am a Descendant of Paul Lazzari.
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Hi Michael
I somehow missed your last post to me for which I do offer many apologies and I do thank you very much - there were details I didn't have!
Luckyramboy - let me know what you are seeking and I'll try and help!
Hazel
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Hello Hazel.I emailed you last night re Kath Fenwick.Regards Roy.
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Hi Luckyramboy - let me know what you want! My line is the Blacks!
Hazel
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I have a friend now living in Co Galway, Ireland who is descended from the Lazzari family of Newcastle. A few years ago I took some notes on her ancestors for her and will still have them. A Mrs Lazzari of the same family was headmistress at St Agnes' catholic school, Crawcrook, Ryton in the early 20th century and taught my late mother who was born 1910.
J.T.A.
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hello JTA. MANY THANKS FOR MAKING CONTACT.i HAVE ASKED kATHY fENWICK TO READ YOUR MESSAGE,SHE IS THE LADY DOING ALL THE REAL WORK ON THE LAZZARI TREE.ITS GROWING EVERYDAY.MANY THANKS Roy.
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Hi JTA, I would be very interseted to know about the Lazzari's in Eire. You can contact me on kath_fenwick@yahoo.com
Best regards, Kath Fenwick