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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Worcestershire => Topic started by: bacardi on Thursday 10 August 06 14:14 BST (UK)
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hi all
if any one has info on cecil family in kidderminster please get intouch
bacardi x
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Hi,
I note that you haven't seen much interest on this site for the Cecil family.
I am looking into a family of Cecils from Sheffield and have scoured the internet and found no-one else researching that name and wondered if you had come across anything at all on the name.
My family name is Saycell from Manchester which quite often got miswritten as Cecil. I am now wondering if it was, originally, the other way round and that Saycell, in this case, is a version of Cecil.
And there is a very tenuous link to a family in Sheffield, so I am trying to gather as much as I can to look for clues.
Cheers,
Dave
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Dave,
There is a good history of the Saycell/cecill/cecil/ etc. family at: http://www.ewyaslacy.org.uk/doc.php?d=rs_dic_0106
divadw
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Thanks for that, it makes interesting reading.
I just need to get the connection back before 1800!
Cheers,
Dave
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Hi DaveC,
There will be some free DNA tests available for the Cecil (and some other) surnames at the WDYTYA Live show at Olympia, London 24-26 February. If interested, you can visit the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG) at stand # 433.
Cheers.
Dave
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Thanks for the info - unfortunatley I don't have direct contact with any suitable males - but I'll send the details to my contact list and see if they can find anybody.
Dave
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Just realised how old my original message was.
I have now confirmed that my original Manchester ancestor was William Cecil who was married there in 1795.
There are no other Cecils in the area preceding him.
I have determined that he is most likely to be the William Cecil born 1769 Cawood, Yorkshire, and that line can be traced back to a John Cicill born c1632 in Aughton, Yorkshire, father also John.
The Sheffield Cecils are another branch of this family.
I have seen the Cecil DNA site
Dave
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DaveC,
This line is of interest to me. I have actually been to the church at Aughton, and as I remember I had to walk through someone's property to get there!
FamilySearch.org lists John Cicill as being christened 19 Feb 1632 in Aughton, near Selby. And his father is identified as "John Cicill". There is also another John Cicill christening there listed for 28 Oct 1638 and with "John Cicill" as the father. Given the 6-year difference in dates, I assume these were two different people, but I cannot tell for certain.
May I ask where you found the birth information for William Cecil? And how he can be traced back to the John Cecill (b. 1632)?
Thanks.
Dave
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Hi,
My reasonably certain line starts with the marriage of William Cecil to Elizabeth Thomas in Manchester 1795.
He died age 89 in Mar 1850, as William Saycell, giving his birth at 1860ish.
The 1841 census has him, as Saysell, age 76 not born in Lancsahire.
There are almost no earlier records of Cecil/Saycells in Lancashire or nearby counties, and he moved all over the country before settling back in Manchester, so he had to move in there from somewhere else.
I have checked all the records I can find for other William around that time and can find plausible marriages or burials for them all, except for William Cecil baptised 1759, son of Lenard at Cawood.
I have followed the probable line back from there through Leonard 1720 s John, John 1679 s John at Clapham, to John Cicill 1638 Aughton.
This John looks to be a replacement for John 1632 - I must have picked that record out by mistake in my previous message
There is also a tenous connection to Yorkshire with an unexplained family.
In 1881 one of William's sons, Joseph is in Manchester and with him is a Samuel Saycell age 25 nephew, wife Mary and children Samuel, Elizabeth and John.
They are all described as born Manchester.
I've been unable to find anything else, anywhere, about this family.
The only "clue" is that the name Samuel doesn't figure at all in the rest of the Manchester Saycell/Cecil families, but it does crop up in the Sheffield Cecils.
Dave
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DaveC,
In response to your information, I started looking at the Cecils in Yorkshire in more detail, but am currently experiencing "data overload" with piles of notes, and no good way to connect them! So I need to back off a little bit, and see if you might be able to help.
The 1881 Census for your Joseph Saycell (age 67) says quite clearly that he was born in "Bridley". Can you tell me where "Bridley" is? Thanks.
I do have a few comments related to Aughton.
Sometime ago I visited the Borthwick Institute of Historical Research in York. The Parish records there, in Ref PR.AUG.1, covering dates from 1610 to 1653 provided the following information from the parish register for Aughton, which I have sub-grouped by locations under Aughton:
East Cottingwith:
1627 Elizabeth Cicell, wife of John Cicell of Eastcottinwth buried 2 July.
1631 John Cicill sonne of John Cicill of Eastcottinwth baptised 19th February.
1636 John Cicill of Eastcottinwth buried 7th December.
Laytham:
1635 Francis Sissell dau: of John Sissell of Lanthom baptised 13th September.
1635 Francis Sissell dau: of John Sissell of Lathom buried 28th September.
1638 John Cicill sonne of John Cicill of Lathom baptised 28 October.
1640 Hugh Cicill sonne of John Cicill of Lathom baptised 8 November.
1644 Edward Sissill sonne of John Sissell buried 20 June.
From this I deduce that we have two Cecil family groups:
In East Cottingwith, John Cicill apparently remarried after the death of his wife, Elizabeth, in 1627. He and his new wife then must have had the son John, born in 1631. I also suspect that the John who died in 1636 was actually the elder John Cicill, who had been the husband to Elizabeth. If so, then the son John would have been alive past 1636.
The John Sissell in Laytham (possibly married about 1634) had at least 4 children. Two of them, John and Hugh, seem to have survived childhood.
So, I think we could possibly have at least 2-John Cecil's from this area and time period! But what is your view?
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Joseph is a bit unknown.
In 1841 he says "not in Lancs"
In 1851 he says "Bristol"
In 1861 he says "Bradler, Herefordshire"
In 1871 he says "Brealey, Buckinghamshire"
In 1881 he says "Bridley"
I have assumed Bristol, for want of anything better - at least we know where it is!
With the added info you have of the places of residence, it does now look like 2 families.
OR
John d1636 and Elizabeth d1627 were the parents of a John born c1610.
He had John b1631 Eastcottwith and moved to Latham and had the other 4 (the first John must have died for this)
Could be a number of scenarios, but there aren't many families in this area, so they are most likely connected in some way.
According to my information, the Aughton registers start in 1610.
Unless a lot of the early stuff is missing/unreadable - where are the Cecils before 1627?
There is a an Abraham Cissales in Otley in 1626, but that's a bit away and Abraham isn't a name that crops up again.
Dave
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DaveC,
I don't know where these specific Cecil family branches were before 1627, but the family seems to have been in the area for a very long period.
In 1597, a Thomas Cicill, age 23, was a witness in a slander suit in the Aughton area. I think the record suggests that he may have been from Lastingham or Spaunton, but I can't tell for sure. [ http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/causepapers/causepaper.jsp?id=126636 ]
There is a Feet of Fines record for a Robert Cecill of Thorpe (Howden) dated 1408. [ http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_279_151.shtml ]
In the 1300's there are several mentions of the family:
About 1360 through at least 1380, Thomas Cicill was the Vicar at Eastington; the King made at least one petition to the Pope (Innocent VI) for him. In 1369, he is recorded as "Thomas Cecill of Howden, clerk of the York Diocese." At that same time there is also mention of "William Cecill, clerk of Durham and York dioceses."
About 1315 there was a Roger Cysell at Burton-upon-Yore (near Marcham) and mention of the heirs of Richard Cysell at Ellington-with-Ellingstring (near Jervaulx).
So we can assume that the Cecil family has been in Yorkshire since at least the late 1200's and near the time surnames started to be used.
Given this long history, one might have expected William Cecil, Lord Burghley, to have traced his line to Yorkshire rather than down to the Wales area. His failure to do so has caused me no end of problems! For example, I know I am related to his family, but I don't know if I should look for my family origins in Yorkshire, as these records would suggest, or near the Welsh border regions where his genealogy would suggest. If you ever find a Cecil who can properly trace his line back to Yorkshire in the 1500's, please let me know; it would certainly help my efforts and probably sanity!
Dave
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I hadn't found any of that early data, and was being guided by this information from a history of the Burleigh Cecils:
"Towards the end of the 15th cent., however,RICHARD CECIL, the first to use the modern form of the name, m. into the Brecknock family of Vaughan of Tyle-glas.
His younger son DAVID CECIL (d.1541) migrated, with some of his Brecknock ‘cousins,’ to Lincolnshire .."
I was guessing that the Yorkshire Cecils might have migrated northwards from Lincolnshire.
The expression "Brecknock cousins" implying that they were his extended family, or even his gang, and might have taken his name while not being blood relations.
Have you considered DNA?
FamilyTreeDNA have a Cecil project
Dave
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I've been putting together the references to the early Yorkshire Cecils and came across this entry from a book “Notes and Queries” (6th Series vol 11 1985 384)
I will have to split it up.
I had also seen a short biography of Lord Burghley suggesting that his pedigree going back to Wales was more a work of fiction!
Dave
Since my former note was written I have met with new and interesting particulars about the Cecills of Howdenshire which may be worth recording in the pages of " N. & Q." These have been found and noted without any special research on my part, while, instigated at the time by finding these to pursue the subject, my investigations have resulted in nothing - a common experience. My kind friend Dr. Sykes looked for any early wills in York, and by Mr. Hudson's permission I carefully went through the act books of the peculiar of Howden, for wills do not exist before the Restoration. Nothing was found.
The following, I submit, confirm my suggestion that the noble house of Cecil was of this Yorkshire stock, as good a one as the very obscure Welsh family on which they were unskilfully grafted. It is remarkable that so shrewd a man as Lord Burghley should have been imposed upon by
the heralds, seeing that "he tooke great paines and delight in pedegrees, wherein he had great knowledge, and wrote whole books of them with his own hand."* These, however, I suspect, were rather tables, that he might - for political purposes see - at a glance the relationship which existed between the royal families of Europe in his day and the kinship of the great and influential families in England.
Stephen Cecile, of Howden, 1313. - In the reign of Edward II. and pontificate of Richard de Kellawe, Bishop of Durham, Stephen Cecile was receiver of the bishop's manor or lordship of Howden, a post of great trust and emolument. How long he held this office is uncertain, but he had given place to Hugh de Lokington in 1313. Further, by letters patent dated Rykale, Wednesday after the Purification B.V.M., 1313 (i.e., 1314), the bishop made known the defeasance of the bond for 200l. sterling given by five obligors for Stephen Cecile, formerly "our" receiver of Howden, unless he renders his official account before Ash Wednesday, which that year would fall on February 20 (Regist. Palatinum Dunelmense, vol. i. p.503).
Before that day arrived, viz., on February 9, we find the bishop, still at Richale, issuing a commission to Adam de Midleton and four other trusty persons to audit the accounts of Stephen Cecile, late "our" receiver of Howden, receive arrears, and power to give him letters of acquittance (ib., 505).
We learn nothing more of the matter; but thirty years after we find a Stephen Cecill and Stephen
his son at York on June 17, 1343, with other Howdenshire folk, witnessing the charter of Richard
(de Bury), Bishop of Durham, granting lands for certain lives to one Thomas Benet, paying into
the bishop's exchequer of Howden 4s. 2d. per annum (ib., iii. 363). Whether we have two or three generations of Stephens here there is nothing to indicate.
Stephen Cecil, of Howden, 1379. We come to another Stephen, who is probably the son who witnessed the above deed of 1343. He occurs in the Poll Tax Returns for Howden and
Howdenshire of 2 Ric. II. This fragment is about to be printed by the Yorkshire Archaeological Association in their Journal, and is in some respects more interesting even than the Returns of the West Riding, which have already appeared.
Stephen Cecil is described as a " Fraunkel(eyn) and Hosteller" of Houeden, and rated at xld.
There were only two others (both Franklins) in that town of prebendaries rated so highly, and none higher. He paid the same as a landless esquire at arms (Rolls of Parl., iii. 57), and no doubt was much better off. He would be a considerable landholder in socage and kept the chief hostel in Howden. Only one other hosteller is named in the roll, and he is rated at xiid. Stephen Cecil had a servant named William, who paid iiiid., a groat; also another, apparently a cousin, sister, or even daughter, named Cecil Cecil. Chaucer's "Frankeleyn" no doubt would have described him well, " Seynt Julian he was in his countre.”
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Unfortunately we know no more about this Stephen, except that he was either a bachelor or widower, as no wife is named, and had no children above sixteen, or none at home. One of Lord Burghley's traducers asserted that his grandfather was an innkeeper at Stamford, which at least is incorrect. If this Stephen was a young man in 1379, which is not likely, and a bachelor, then he might have been the Stephen Cecill of Howden who with Alice his wife in 1390-1 sold or
conveyed to certain trustees two houses in the town, which were apparently hers (see former note). The Poll Tax Returns, which are very full, give us one other Cecil, and only one, viz., Robert Cecil, of Howden, 1379, a brewer, and rated at iis. There was only one brewer, but no less than twenty braciatrices, or ale-wives, brewing for the thirsty husbandmen, craftsmen, and labourers, and for the many prebendaries. Robert may have been brother, or son, or even father of Stephen, but he had no wife in 1379. He, however, must have been a young man if he was the Robert Cecil who, with Isabel his wife, by fine dated 1404-5, settled two messuages and eleven acres of land in Thorpe on their issue, and in default on her heirs, showing that this property came through her. Four years after he bought a house and lands in Thorpe and Belby, just outside the town. A house and land in Belby belonged to the second wife of David Cecill, Lord Burghley’s grandfather, as I showed in my former note. There are now only two farmhouses in Belby. The Court Rolls of Howden would reveal much if they go so far back. The last of this family at Howden appears to have been George Cecill, gent., an inquest after whose death was taken at Wetherby, Sept. 16, 1539 (Inq. p.m. 31 H. VIII., No. 52). The date of his decease is, most unusually, omitted. He was found to have died seised of 6 messuages, 4 cottages, 100 acres of land, 60 acres of meadow and pasture, a windmill, and an annual rent of 13s. 4d. in
Howden, Skelton, Laxton, Knedlington, and Asleby, by which deed, he had settled on Juliana, his daughter, and William Grave, her husband. She was his sole heiress, and then aged twenty-eight.
I have found nothing more. The name of Cecil Cecil is interesting as confirming the suggested
origin of the surname as a matronymic, not more than a generation or two before the earliest,
i.e., Stephen of 1313. It is remarkable that it should be so uncommon a name, as Cecil or Cecilia was a favourite Christian name in Yorkshire. I have only met with one instance of the name in more recent times in Yorkshire. William Nicholson, of Cawood (afterwards of York, and one of the chamberlains of the city in 1743), married in York Minster, Aug. 1, 1738, Mary Cecil, of Cawood (Yorks. Archeol. Journal, vol. iii. p. 86).
I notice that, according to a pedigree in Miscellanea Gen. et Her., new series, iii. 286, David Cecill was younger son of a Philip Cecill of Stamford. A. S. ELLIS.
Notes:
Peck's Desiderata Curiosa, vol. i. ch. xxi., 10.
The bishops of Durham had a " manor," 'i.e., manor house in Riccall parish called Le Welhalle. It was built by Bishop Kellawe, who was often there, and is now a farmhouse called "Wheel" Hall. It was on the banks the Ouse, and had, it is said, three moats. Foundations of considerable extent can be traced.
Howden, i.e., Hoveden, obtained its name when it was an insular site in the marsh or fen, and the head or chief of a group of similar sandhills. Near Christiana, in Norway, are some islands, the largest of which bears the name of Hoved-oen. On it certain monks from Lincoln founded a Cistercian monastery in 1147. " Hedon," which occurs more than once in my former note, is an
error of the MS. quoted for Howden, and evidently does not mean Hedon in Holderness
END
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The date, of the book, in the previous posts should read 1885 not 1985!
Dave
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Hi Dave, i am a Cecil from Manchester , living in Holland now and have traced my family back to Aughton. Might be interesting to exchange some info. Love to hear from you.
Kind regards, Suzanne