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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: kena on Wednesday 09 August 06 14:07 BST (UK)
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Hi, please can anybody tell me if Brayton Gate in the parish of Allhallows would be a place or a farm. Have found a death there of a 1 year old called Richard Reay in 1821 and the parents names on a baptism for a Richard Reay in 1820 in Aspatria match up with some of my ancestors whose parents were also of Brayton Gate when the kids were baptised.
Very grateful for any help anybody can give me.
Thanks
Anna
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Brayton Gate was probably related to Brayton Hall, just a mile or two NE of Aspatria.
Find the hall at www.old-maps.co.uk search for Baggrow, then move north a bit.
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Hi Geoff, Thanks very much for that, my ancestor John Reay (who was the father of all these kids) was a stonecutter/stonemason so I don't know what that would be in relation to the hall.
Anna
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Was Isaac REAY one of your lot?
http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk/farmer/viewarticle.aspx?id=82096&imageindex=5
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Hi again, not so far as I know but he could maybe be a distant relative, you never know.
Anna
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Hi, kena. I was in Aspatria last year and was disappointed to learn that the farm area at Brayton has been demolished. I think there was a very destructive fire. There is an exclusive restaurant on that site now. Another trip I may get a chance to investigate it. Sir Lawson's family would be appalled; their families lived there for several generations.
I think Aspatria, Brayton, and Allhollows are all close to being together from what I've seen on a map. Also, having been in the area, things are not very far apart.
My mother's family lived in Aspatria, Newtown, and Fletchertown. As well as Gilcrux, Plumbland, and Dearham. The later village is further toward the southwest.
It's well worth the time I spent there, also the time spent in the Castle Record Office in Carlisle and Wigton. You may find quite a bit on the Reay family in those two offices. I've seen the name many times in perusing the 1841 - 1881 census records, so there were a lot of them. I have copies of the records; only for the pages pertaining to my family. Also the Cumberland list through RootsWeb.com.
Most of my info originally came from Ancestory.com, but I no longer have access to it at home. However, most libraries (including mine) have a subscription.
Good luck with your continued research. RedFox
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Hi Redfox, Thanks very much for the info, please was the Brayton area very big do you know, also do Wigton and Thursby also lie in close proximity to it.
Thanks
Anna
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Hi, kena. Wigton lies between Aspatria and Carlisle. It's about a 10-15 minute drive to Wigton from Aspatria, I would guess, thinking back. There are several good highways out of Carlisle, one that passes the outskirts of Wigton, then goes down to Aspatria. The other is south of the area.
Don't recall where Thursby is, although I've heard of it. There are a number of small villages in that area. One place to check would be MultiMap.com. I used that site for all the planning when I went to England last year. I got so I really knew the area (at least for the places I was looking for) and their location in relation to Carlisle, where I stayed for 11 days/12 nights.
A map might give you a better idea of the size of Brayton. My guess is, the Lawson family had a lot of land. They were quite wealthy; he was Sir Lawson, I believe and an MP. There was both farming and mining on the land. Haven't been able to come up with the name of the other map site I've used.
Sorry I couldn't be more help. So much was going on during my trip, I had to keep a diary. Maybe I should refer to it; I'm operating on memory right now. RedFox.
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Hi RedFox, Thanks very much for that, I think a place close to Thursby might be Westward. Next May I will be going up to the Scottish Borders where I also have quite a few ancestors as my greatgrandmother was actually born in Newcastleton in Roxburghshire, while I am there I should also be visiting round different villages in the Stapleton/Bewcastle area (my familyname, Kennedy come from that area, especially Stapleton where there are still quite a few gravestones of my direct ancestors coming right down to my grandparents). Unfortunately I won't be able to go to the area where my Reay's are from this time but I really hope to get up there one of these days.
Thanks again
Anna
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Will coincidences never cease. My great, greatgrandfather was supposedly born in Newcastleton in 1799. According to the census records; last name ROBSON. It is a beautiful area. I spent a week in the Scottish borders (including Edinburgh and Glasgow) for a week before returning to Carlisle. That's why the 12 nights.
I was fortunate to have someone drive my car about the Newcastleton area the first day. Plus it was very nice (it rained the rest of the week), so I got a chance to see the scenery. Bruce is very knowledgeable. We took in Heritage Castle. Would have gone to the historical office in Newcastleton, but it was a Sunday. He crossed back and forth over the border, just as the reivers would have. We also went to the site where Castleton was. That's quite a story.
If you'll write me a personal message; I'll give you the address where you can find you can find the pictures I took last year. I put them on a yahoo.com site.
It may be a few hours before I answer you. Need to call it quits for now. RedFox
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Hi, I will be spending 5 nights in the Borders, staying in Newcastleton and Hawick, probably spending every waking moment searching out my ancestors in the Borders and Cumbria. That is the first part of the holiday, the second part will involve keeping the parents content on a visit to some Scottish Islands (nothing against them but not completely my cup of tea, I was a bit overloaded with them as a kid) ::).
Will send you a pm regarding the kind offer of the photos.
Thanks
Anna
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Hi Redfox, if you need any lookups doing regarding your great great grandfather Robson I have the 1841 to 1861 Castleton censuses in bookform and also the Castleton MI's in bookform.
Just let me know
Anna
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Hi, Kena. Was just re-reading the messages on Brayton and Newcastleton. Too bad you can't go to both, but can understand how that happens.
I hope to go back to Newcastleton and the Liddledale Museum. It's only open in the afternoons four days a week. There area several hotels in town. But if I had a car I'd drive to the Horse & Hound Country Inn which is about 20 miles away in Boncaster Bridge, Hawick. It's an old coaching inn opened in 1700. The en-suite bath was the best of my whole trip. Granted there was no elevator/lift. But there is a great dining room and bar with a wonderful fireplace. I stayed there in 2005 and will get back this trip (2008) or the next.
There is also a hotel in Aspatria. If you stayed in Carlisle, it's an hour drive to Newcastleton (you're only 8 miles from the Border) and about one-half hour to Aspatria-Brayton. I would love to go to the Islands and hope to include that on the trip after 2008.
I swore I would never drive in Hawick again. Also in the area and where I did drive: Lochcarron is a great woolen mill that was in Galashiels and a glass blowing shop in Selkirk. There is a beautiful abbey in Jedburgh and I've heard the other ones are great as well. Would love to hear about your trip. I assume you went in 2006. RedFox
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Hi RedFox, I eventually got to Newcastleton May this year after having broken my leg the previous November which I am still recovering from. We stayed at the The Grapes (a lovely familyrun hotel which I can very much recommend) and at the Mansfield House in Hawick (not so much my cup of tea). Went to Bewcastle, Stapleton, Lanercost, Kirkandrews on Esk in Cumbria. Bellingham, Elsdon, Falstone in Northumberland and Teviothead, Roberton, Peebles, Traquair, Manor and Yarrow in the Borders, a big trip. We also met one of my late grandad's cousins in Newcastleton which was lovely. Next May we are going to the Lakes when we will be paying a visit to Carlisle which I can't wait for and of course will definitley be going back to Newcastleton sometime in the future.
Anna
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;Dhi, dunno if this will be any use to you, but brayton domain was a coal mine at aspatria, some of the workings can still be seen, there is a site for old pits if any one was hurt or killed at work the durham mining museum site will list them as well as photos of the pits,. wodell
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wodell, do you know where this is, is it a museum? I plan to go back to Aspatria area in 2008 and will have a car again. Or do I need to be in the Durham area. I also had ancestors who were miners there and in Yorkshire. Some in Aspatria were miners, but some were farmers.
I have learned this year that Mr. Lawson was a major mine owner. So he was not only a MP, but at one time he was knighted and became a Sir. There may be a statue of him in Carlisle, but I'm not sure, The Lawson family and their servants lived at Brayton Hall and Brayton farm. I've found them on several census records. RedFox
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:Dhi, there isnt a museum at aspatria, just some old mine ruins, i do recall a seeing some photos of the miners somewhere, i,ll try to remember where at,
the mining museum is on line its quite interesting if you have mining connections, but if you need to know any local geography i worked in the villages surrounding aspatria,
due to work i am only on line at weekends(i wish it could be more),
the lawsons were quite a powerful family at one time, there still is a lawson street in the town,
i know how genealogy can be a pain but our local dialect will make it worse,we call aspatria, speeyatree,dunno why.
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:Dhi, its me back again, the site is www.dmm.org.uk.
it lists all shafts sunk dates productivity, and a number of employees names and addresses, as well as a photo of the pit, and links to sites where you will find details of the owners, hope it helps, wodell
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Thanks for the website, wodell. The only Cumberland mine I found was in Workington. There was one man killed in that flood incident, but not sure if he fits in my family tree or not.
The street you said is Lawson I figure used to be called Newtown in the census and parish records. I was going through some research a relative did in 1992 when his family went over to visit Aspatria. That was what the man who lived on that street told them. I was also on that street in 2005 - I didn't know it was called that. The man working in his garage there said the houses across the way were probably built about 1840. I had to wonder if my ancestor hadnn't lived there.
The women I met in Carlisle told me then to pronounce Aspatria - speetree - like you did. One of the women said that is how the train conducter pronounced it.
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Hi Wodell, Thanks for that.
Anna
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Hi, there were loads of pits (sorry coalmines) in west cumbria. My ggf blew himself up at dearham pit. There was a huge disaster at one of the whitehaven pits I think in the 30's. I remember the spoil heaps at salterbeck, flimby (at least 2 pits there) and 1 at northside workington that when they removed the spoilheap in the 60's the tides scoured the bay of all the sand and we were left with practically no beach and the coastal railway needs constant protection there now. Ggf is on the dmm site (henry graham).
bob
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That DMM site is very interesting even though it only has Workington pits on it. I did see a Graham. Also saw some who might have been my ancestors, both Wilkinson. Two had last names I recognized from people I've chatted with on the Cumberland list - Sandwith and Oglanby.
It's a site worth looking at for several counties, mostly around Durham - Yorkshire, Northumberland, etc. But also other areas. RedFox
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That DMM site is very interesting even though it only has Workington pits on it.
I have answered this on the Cumb List, but will repeat my reply here
Only Workington pits?
I suggest you take another look - there are over 60 named fatalities at Aspatria.
http://www.dmm.org.uk/lom/1888_301.htm
http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/b030.htm
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My g.g.grandfather lived in Dalton, Ulverstone and was an iron ore miner in 1861. Anyone know anything about that?
Liz
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Just had a look on google and found a site all about Iron Ore Mining in the Dalton area. Apparently it was the principal mining town of Furness. There are also some reports of deaths down the mines. One is of a man with the same surname as my g.g.grandfather although as the death was in 1828 and my g.g.grandfather wasn't born until 1835 it obviously wasn't his father. It is a common surname in the town, but might have been some relative.
Liz
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Lizzie
You might find something here about a specific mine
http://www.dmm.org.uk/lom/1902_305.htm
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Geoff
Thanks for that. I don't know which mine my g.g.grandfather worked in. I do know by 1871 he had taken his family to Hull. Perhaps he felt being a dock labourer was safer than an iron ore miner.
Liz
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Thanks, Geoff. I also answered you on the Cumberland list. I was distracted. I didn't look past the first page and paid no attention to the column on the left-hand side. I had been on this website several years ago, so I should have known better. As I said on the C. list, I was distracted. RedFox
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;Dgosh how lucky am i , the householder behind me, woke up an his garden had gone, thats cos we live over one of them west cumbria mine shafts, its been there since before the formation of the ncb and before the owners were made to keep records,the village rests on pillars of coal a bit like cleator moor does on iron ore,
i think digging through records is safer than coal,?
but i am off work for a few days, and i have the workington 1700, 1901 cdrom if any one needs any info, wodell ;)
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Hello Kena...I have just joined ten minutes ago and I am delighted to reply to your post having been brought up in Aspatria. (Hope I am not too late)
I think Brayton Gate was a farm on the road to Aspatria.. The Hall was the home of the
Lawson family. Sir Wilfrid Lawson (1829 to 1906) was the local M.P. and local benefactor. He was best known as President of the United Kingdom Alliance (Temperance Movement.) He is in Online Encyclopaedia.
As well as the memorial to him in Aspatria (St. George) there is a very fine life-size statue of Sir Wilfrid on the Embankment in London just in front of the back (riverside) windows of the Savoy Hotel.
Thursby is between Wigton and Carlisle. Wigton is a small market town eight miles from Aspatria. Two well known people attended the grammar school there .....Anna Ford (her father was the vicar) and Melvyn Bragg. ( And me)
Aspatria was a mining village, it is exactly mid way between Wigton and Maryport.
Allhallows Parish is the neighbouring one to Aspatria. It includes Fletchertown, Mealsgate, Baggrow, Bolton Low Houses, Blennerhasset, Red Dial,etc......all tiny villages within a small radius.
By the way there is lots on Google about these places, I have just checked Images of Cumbria via Google.
The painter Sheila Fell came from Aspatria. She was one of L.S. Lowry's protegees.
Incidentally my ancestor Barbara Frears had her baby in Cockermouth Workhouse in 1866 and gave her maiden name as Reay but whether it was due to mis-hearing or something like that I don't know yet.
Good luck with everything.
SarahB
:)
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Hi SarahB, welcome to Rootschat, many thanks for that info, my greatgrandfather David Kennedy was a policeman in Wigton many moons ago, has anybody heard of him out there.
Anna
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Hi fellow Cumbrian researchers...there is loads of info on the site www.historicaldirectories.org .
Also on Graeme Rumney's website (via Google ) on Brayton Domain (Pit) and related links there is a picture of Sir Wilfrid's memorial in Aspatria.
When Sir Wilfrid inherited Brayton Hall he emptied all wine and spirits into the pond which was henceforward called Whisky Pond.
L.S.Lowry used to visit and stay with Sheila Fell's mother. Apparently whatever he painted in the surrounding fields always turned out as a view of Manchester streets.
My great grandfather worked at Brayton Domain Pit and was killed there on 27th January 1905. His name was Henderson.
My main area of research at present is theline of Ritson Frears of Eskdale and Muncaster. Happy hunting SarahB
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My mother's family are descendents from the Lawson's. Sir Alfred Lawson's daughter Sarah married William Cockburn and one of the son's is in our family tree.
Can anyone tell me the best source for information on births, marriages and deaths say from 1700 to 1770 in Cumberland?
Thanks Joe A
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Which part of cumberland? My grandfather (a scotsman) used to say cumberland was the biggest county in england - they had to pile it up to get it all in. ;>}
bob
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I believe it is the Carlisle area. Brayton Hall is where the Lawsons lived and apparently the youngest daughter of Sir Alfred Lawson ran off to Gretna around 1750 with one of my Cockburn relatives and got married, much to the dismay of her family.
I wondered if anyone would have more info on them.
Joe Appleby
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No Brayton is between wigton and aspatria and comes under aspatria parish. I was hoping the bishops transcripts might be available on line but they are onlt back to 1813. However in 1832 "Apr 8th No.724 ALFRED Son of Sir Wilfrid & Lady Caroline LAWSON Brayton Baronet" appears so thats 1 generation back and only christenings have been transcribed. Just been back to page and if you "search this page" in edit, you can see when wilfred, gentleman, became sir wilfred, baronet. Will also give you all the family.
bob
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Thanks Bob I'll check that out
Joe A
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There are also (Wilfred) LAWSON links with Isel Hall http://www.aboutbritain.com/IselHall.htm
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But it also means that the family are there in the bishops transcripts for aspatria and a full copy of these is in Carlisle archives (lot easier than trying to read the parish records) so all you need now is SKS to nip down there with an afternoon to spare and you would soon be back to 1770. Unfortunately I've moved out of Carlisle - not far- and have a full time job or I would do it for you.
bob
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Hmm!! Wonder if they have overnight flights from Atlanta to Carlisle or does it mean I have to go thru Manchester?
I'll have to see if my cousin in Newcastle or my favorite brother in the boro will help me out.
Joe A
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Thanks Geoff
Quite a bit there about the Lawsons.
Joe A
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Thanks Geoff
Quite a bit there about the Lawsons.
Joe A
I actually went round Isel Hall in 1991. The present owner was a college friend of my mother-in-law. Last time I visited M-i-L, she produced an Isel Hall booklet which contained a chart of (I think) the occupiers of the hall.
Incidentally, on the link I gave, the stone carving of the sun being held aloft represents the "arms of the LAW" holding the SUN - some sort of historic jest based on the name LAWSON. ::)
I see this website mentions the booklet, so you may be able to get one if you think it worthwhile
http://www.cockermouth.org.uk/dms-showpage.php?tid=537
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Wow, that's really great. I wonder if there is a family tree for the 'old' Lawson family somewhere. Of course I'm sure that my ancestor, Sarah Lawson, was disowned by the family when she eloped to Gretna Green with John Cockburn.
Still it's all very interesting family history to pass on.
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I am just starting with my family tree and have enrolled for night school this spring to learn more. I think that my great grand mother Ruth Lawson was divorced form Sir George Erskine and married my great grandfather. She was Sir Wilfred Lawson's daughter and lived in Brayton Hall. She was born about 1843 and her first marriage was in 1869 She remarried in 1877. As the Lawsons changed name from Wyberg and the Baronetcy moved sideways I am struggling ! Can anyone help me find Ruth my grandmother's details please?
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Hi PeterLS, welcome to Rootschat :)
I'm rather puzzled by this one - looking at Wilfred LAWSON and his wife Caroline in the 1851 census, they were aged 55 and 57 then and their youngest child was aged 12. No Ruth ???
There were a few Ruth LAWSONs born in Cumb in the 1840s
One (in Maryport) had a father Thomas who was a labourer.
Another had a father Robert (b 1808) who was a solicitor.
Yet another had a father Robert who was a Builder.
Finally, one was stepdaughter of a Cowkeeper.
I can find a possible marriage in 1867 of a Ruth LAWSON to a John Henry ERSKINE, they were in Co Durham in 1871. John Henry was an Engine Driver at an Ironworks, not a knight of the realm.
Ruth was apparently married to a George SMITH in 1881, he was born about 1844 in Stourbridge. John Henry ERSKINE had died in 1872 and she married George SMITH in 1873. This appears to be the only Ruth ERSKINE marriage in the 1870s.
Finally, in 1891, Ruth gives her birthplace - Maryport - suggesting that she was Tom the Labourer's daughter.
I realise that none of this is in agreement with what you said. Please don't dismiss it out of hand. Of course, if you have nothing to do with the SMITHs, I am on the wrong track.
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Geoff,
Many thanks for your message on 3rd Jan which I have only just picked up. You are a star !! My surname was Smith but now changed to Lawson-Smith to preserve the links. George Smith was my great Grandfather and I had been told that he married Ruth Erskine who had been married before but was divorced. I had been a bit suspicious of this but your information seems to link up. Very many thanks. Part of my extended family has said that Ruth was the daughter of Sir Wilfred Lawson and this seems to be in doubt.They also quote the surname Wyberg.which confuses things.I have an address of 6 Oxford St. Sockton-on Tees for George Smith which is probably right as my father came from Middlesborough.
PeterLS
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I have an address of 6 Oxford St. Stockton-on Tees for George Smith which is probably right as my father came from Middlesborough.
Yes, that is where they were living in the 1881 census.
Either one of Ruth's marriage certificates ought to give her father's name.
Marriages Mar 1867
ERSKINE John Henry Cockermouth 10b 645
LAWSON Ruth Cockermouth 10b 645
Marriages Dec 1873
ERSKINE Ruth Stockton 10a 211
SMITH George Stockton 10a 211
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Thank you once again Geoff. I am very grateful indeed. You have given me a big boost.
Regards
PeterLS